Melee is so weak they are getting booted out of Dungeon Groups

Jade1986

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I struggle through vet content on my broken NB, all I see around me are destruction staff users running into 4/5 mobs spamming impulse and killing everything in seconds. And they're going to make it stronger! O.o

Exactly my thoughts. It makes no sense....what so ever.

Sakiri

Saerydoth wrote: »

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Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?

In short, all dps addons can only determine the damage you do and the damage you take. Nothing else from other players.

Melee is not weak, at all. There's a reason why a 2h DK is arguably the strongest class in the game.

Those people claiming his dps was weak are full of it because they had no way of knowing what his dps was unless he had the addon and was announcing it to them.

Also, the reason why so many melee dps players die quickly is because they think they can face roll a boss or mob and that's not how this game works. I know plenty of people that melee dps and have ZERO issue with veteran content because they built their character to survive and know how to play a melee class properly.

All in all, this is pretty much a non issue.

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

Recount didn't do that.

Every single boss fight being nothing but a meatbag with an enrage timer and nothing else to define your character BUT dps did that.

Though I still found it amusing in EQ2 where my bard and illusionist were brought for buffs and I still ended up doing 300k. >.>

Reevster

Same old same old, as with other games there is always going to be a "better" class for this reason or that reason and then they nerf the "better" class and the old "better" class starts calling for a nerf of the new "better" class, have seen this happen time and again , i don't see the Sorcerer as being OPed, I see a lack of melee survivability as the issue here, I mean melee are not suppose to stand back and do damage , thats a given, thats the casters job and always has been, dont call for a nerf of a class thats working as intended, call for better healing in end game content for melee or some other way to "Help" melee live longer , its too funny, i see melee destroy mobs in a few seconds while my Soreror takes longer to cast 1.3 sec spells and can only take out one mobs in the time a good melee can take out 2 or 3 lol but I dont call for a nerf ,I know its working as intended.

Nox_Aeterna

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?

In short, all dps addons can only determine the damage you do and the damage you take. Nothing else from other players.

Melee is not weak, at all. There's a reason why a 2h DK is arguably the strongest class in the game.

Those people claiming his dps was weak are full of it because they had no way of knowing what his dps was unless he had the addon and was announcing it to them.

Also, the reason why so many melee dps players die quickly is because they think they can face roll a boss or mob and that's not how this game works. I know plenty of people that melee dps and have ZERO issue with veteran content because they built their character to survive and know how to play a melee class properly.

All in all, this is pretty much a non issue.

DK The reason for that , is that the DK itself has been asking for a nerf for a while now.

keylargo

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

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LazerusKI wrote: »

What was his class? out of curiosity.
With my NB i have the same problem, because most of our skills do not work. Reapers Mark as an example or anything that applies a status effect.

Im still wondering why there is no "sneak attack" mechanik (like skyrim) that gives at least a small bonus when attacking from behind. would make a huge difference when you consider the risk of melee compared to ranged.

but yeah...currently one of the best groups is made with 3 tanks and one heal i think...shieldbash for the win -.-

He is using a Sorcerer and with Crit Surge he was well over the weapon damage cap and the stamina soft cap but apparently that is not enough...

QFE

Sakiri

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

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laced wrote: »

LazerusKI wrote: »

laced wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Here is hoping they do some serious balancing, because I use melee atm w/o magic aside from the Might Standard......

Also bugs me that weapon skills didn't get any ultimates......

The "melee" ulti is the Flawless Dawnbreaker from the Fighters Guild, it increases damage when slotted. Kind of like the Resto Staff for casters.

Yes they need to rebalance the weapon skills badly, the funny thing is they are buffing the Destro Staff abilities with the Craglorn patch but no buffs for the physical damage weapons. Maybe not enough people play physical builds so they are not as relevant in the statistics ZENIMAX uses.

Either way, at endgame when casters can get spell damage enchants on their gear(1 spell damage was calculated to give them approx. 0.5% damage, currently a spell damage enchant = 12 spell damage @ endgame) they out DPS melee quite a lot and they are getting buffed in the Craglorn patch as ZENIMAX is giving them 1 spell damage per VR level...

So its good and getting better if you are a magic user but no light at the end of the tunnel for physical damage users so far.....

Buffing destro staff because destro staff is weak as hell right now. Compared to other weapons and their skills it's kinda crap.

I use a bow on my sorc as an aside.

Reykice

Sakiri wrote: »

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alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

laced wrote: »

LazerusKI wrote: »

laced wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Here is hoping they do some serious balancing, because I use melee atm w/o magic aside from the Might Standard......

Also bugs me that weapon skills didn't get any ultimates......

The "melee" ulti is the Flawless Dawnbreaker from the Fighters Guild, it increases damage when slotted. Kind of like the Resto Staff for casters.

Yes they need to rebalance the weapon skills badly, the funny thing is they are buffing the Destro Staff abilities with the Craglorn patch but no buffs for the physical damage weapons. Maybe not enough people play physical builds so they are not as relevant in the statistics ZENIMAX uses.

Either way, at endgame when casters can get spell damage enchants on their gear(1 spell damage was calculated to give them approx. 0.5% damage, currently a spell damage enchant = 12 spell damage @ endgame) they out DPS melee quite a lot and they are getting buffed in the Craglorn patch as ZENIMAX is giving them 1 spell damage per VR level...

So its good and getting better if you are a magic user but no light at the end of the tunnel for physical damage users so far.....

Buffing destro staff because destro staff is weak as hell right now. Compared to other weapons and their skills it's kinda crap.

I use a bow on my sorc as an aside.

ALL the weapon sets are bad and need a buff not JUST the Destruction Staff.

I`m not counting Impulse here as that spell is used by pretty much every magic user to AOE packs of mobs so its clearly fine.

EDIT: I`m talking about things like flurry that seem to scale badly, at VR levels many have complained and showed footage of how Flurry is actually a DPS LOSS compared to just doing heavy attacks.... you can find the thread right on this forum in the weapon skill section...

That pretty much sums up the problem: magic scales a lot better compared to physical damage skills, they need to look at it and change something in the formula.

The other thing is that a caster has no need for stamina while a melee user right now needs magicka as his class buffs and spells that work with his melee build use magicka and scale with magicka/spell damage and not with stamina/weapon damage. So you can see mages with 2200 magicka but you won`t see physical damage builds who can stack so much stamina as they must also increase their magicka to be able to use their class buffs.

KORJ

look at DPS




single target, my DPS 600-800

Worstluck

Nightblade melee is week (I'm a vr8 NB)...the other's are fine for the most part. I think some of the weapon skill lines could use a little balancing of course. I play melee now just for kicks and it is 'ok' in pvp, but NB melee is useless in dungeons due to all the broken skills and passives. The DK and Sorc are really, really strong classes though...definitely sticking with my dk and sorc alts!

Malediktus

Mabye instead of nerfing something bring other classes/skills in line by making them stronger. Most abilities feel useless and underpowered in this game, not like something worthy of a hero

Reevster

[/quote]



The other thing is that a caster has no need for stamina while a melee user right now needs magicka as his class buffs and spells that work with his melee build use magicka and scale with magicka/spell damage and not with stamina/weapon damage. So you can see mages with 2200 magicka but you won`t see physical damage builds who can stack so much stamina as they must also increase their magicka to be able to use their class buffs.[/quote]

Really? I guess you have never played a Sorcerer with some melee skills. I use sta all the time and am VR3 with Dual wield and skills in most of the passives plus one active. Plus the convert Sta to heath/magica active. So ya I use all 3 pools/ Mag/health/sta, and when I die I can assure you my sta pool in empty....

Adernath

I disagree to buff meele in any way. First: You can see from the weapon damage and the character sheet, meele damage is already greater than spell damage.

The fact that mobs can be CC-ed and killed from range to avoid meele confrontation is just the reason why so many people love to play a caster.

I am really happy this isnt going the WoW-idiotic way of making meeles on par with casters and balancing everything out so it doesnt matter what you play.

In almost every standard rpg the big bad guy is a sorcerer. Guess why? Magic is the way to true power!

Reykice

Reevster wrote: »

Really? I guess you have never played a Sorcerer with some melee skills. I use sta all the time and am VR3 with Dual wield and skills in most of the passives plus one active. Plus the convert Sta to heath/magica active. So ya I use all 3 pools/ Mag/health/sta, and when I die I can assure you my sta pool in empty....

Yes but your damage doesn`t depend on your stamina build. Since you are a Sorc i`ll give a Sorc example: Surge is a very nice spell for any melee build BUT it scales off Magicka and Spell Damage, so a melee with no magicka/spell damage will get a smaller benefit from it.

Reykice

KORJ wrote: »

look at DPS




single target, my DPS 600-800

We all know how to make the dps meter show that... next time try it with NO AOE and on an actual dungeon boss...

Nice trolling tho.

Reykice

Adernath wrote: »

I am really happy this isnt going the WoW-idiotic way of making meeles on par with casters and balancing everything out so it doesnt matter what you play.

MMO`s usually use a risk vs reward type of balancing aka if you are a ranged class who takes little to no risk to kill the mob you will do less damage compared to the melee type of character who takes a lot more damage and(in ESO) doesn`t have a hard CC built into his main nuke spell.

If they make melee type characters do less damage NOBODY would play them as they would get kicked out of dungeons like they are now so in the end a lot of people who enjoy playing that would leave. WOW did the smart thing, its called balance...

I get that you want ranged character to be more powerful because you play one but if you think about it a melee player will want melee to be stronger. Since the devs can`t make them both happy they just make them both do the same damage(balancing them) while usually giving the melee more options to survive taking damage and the ranged class more ways to kite.

neocomab16_ESO

Saerydoth wrote: »

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Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?

In short, all dps addons can only determine the damage you do and the damage you take. Nothing else from other players.

Melee is not weak, at all. There's a reason why a 2h DK is arguably the strongest class in the game.

Those people claiming his dps was weak are full of it because they had no way of knowing what his dps was unless he had the addon and was announcing it to them.

Also, the reason why so many melee dps players die quickly is because they think they can face roll a boss or mob and that's not how this game works. I know plenty of people that melee dps and have ZERO issue with veteran content because they built their character to survive and know how to play a melee class properly.

All in all, this is pretty much a non issue.

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

Wow ...you realize that vet dungeon bosses have a tight enrage timer, do you? So it doesnt matter if recount works or not. The game is designed that way. Same in WoW. Reason why you were kicked from groups was your lack of damage. Reason why they kicked you was either you were holding the group back and cost them precious time or simply prevented progress due to your lack of dmg. You know ...enrage timers.

Same here. And thus it is a problem. They want to keep it tight...that's fine. But then they either balance everything equally or simply admit that you cant play the way you want because if you do you prevent your team from progressing. You are not hurting yourself but the entire team by underperforming. I bet that never came up to do, did it?

Cuz it's only "me got kicked, recound bad" ...

About the Bow vs. Melee. Playing NB dual wield / bow combo and I feel that from the dmg aspect dw outperforms bow by a lot. No idea how some came up with the idea that bow was fine.

reggielee

i was wondering when elitism would start rearing its ugly head in this game.

ZiRM

I play melee/sorcerer and have no problems dishing out DPS. I don't want to and wont play with people like that anyways. Thank gawd I don't have to rely of pub groups etc. I play the way I want.

murklor007neb18_ESO

This is a flaw in the AI and abilities of the mobs, not the actual weapons.

Its real simple: while mobs should be able to deflect melee weapons (boosting armour, blocking, dodging, etc) they should also reflect magic attacks (spell sheild reflection). And I'm not talking 1 in 100 mobs, I'm talking at least 1 in a group of 3 doing something other than charging attacks for 3 second while screaming HIT ME NOW PLEASE!!!

Smarter AI would rebalance the whole melee/magicka system as it would be more dangerous to cast high damage spells (funny to watch a sorc go on an AoE pulsar rampage only to apply all damage to himself and die in 0.5 seconds).

LazerusKI

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

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Adernath wrote: »

I am really happy this isnt going the WoW-idiotic way of making meeles on par with casters and balancing everything out so it doesnt matter what you play.

MMO`s usually use a risk vs reward type of balancing aka if you are a ranged class who takes little to no risk to kill the mob you will do less damage compared to the melee type of character who takes a lot more damage and(in ESO) doesn`t have a hard CC built into his main nuke spell.

If they make melee type characters do less damage NOBODY would play them as they would get kicked out of dungeons like they are now so in the end a lot of people who enjoy playing that would leave. WOW did the smart thing, its called balance...

I get that you want ranged character to be more powerful because you play one but if you think about it a melee player will want melee to be stronger. Since the devs can`t make them both happy they just make them both do the same damage(balancing them) while usually giving the melee more options to survive taking damage and the ranged class more ways to kite.

No melee? only Ranged? Sounds like Guild Wars...
*sigh* i miss my flamethrower and my grenades from GW2 somehow...

sadly...melee survival is currently crap.
the whole blocking and dodging mechanic is beyond any logic (i mean...block heavy attacks but not the weak attacks...yeah...it should be the other way around, block the weak and use heavy to overcome the block, use bash to interrupt the heavy or dodge out of it...and against ranged attacks, use dodge...but currently all projectiles are sidewinders)

Dominulf

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I struggle through vet content on my broken NB, all I see around me are destruction staff users running into 4/5 mobs spamming impulse and killing everything in seconds. And they're going to make it stronger! O.o

It makes no sense to me either. It's probably the same genius that let Bash as it currently is make it past beta.

Elder Scrolls Online! Where the best damage comes from AoE spells and the strongest weapon is a shield!

Adernath

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

If they make melee type characters do less damage NOBODY would play them as they would get kicked out of dungeons like they are now so in the end a lot of people who enjoy playing that would leave. WOW did the smart thing, its called balance...

Yes, I understand your argument. But this is doesnt have to be like WoW. And still here are many who decided to play as meele. In standard PnP casters have always the strongest effects (however they generally can not cast them so often). However meeles have their own advantages. I find it stupid when people always look at a single meter and then start QQing about balancing this...

I really would like to have this PnP flair where it matters what you play. And not some game which is balanced to the ground where it doesnt make any difference. The next thread is about that NBs have too few CCs and to give them more... do you see where this leads? Too many people expect WoW conditions here.

Only totaly broken abilities should be adjusted. The rest is fine IMO.

LazerusKI

@Adernath‌
if you look at the patchnotes from the reddit post, it WILL become like WoW.
Patching with a sledgehammer, something is broken in pvp (ulti cost stacking), makes the vampire ulty cost 0p - nerf vampire instead of fixing the stacking-exploit.
- and this will most likely affect pve too.
balancing shieldbash? nah, lets fix a problem with the "bashing" enchant first.
fixing the big NB problems? nah, lets do some minor things first.

currently NB is the weakest class, while sorc is the strongest (i think).
And i bet it wont stay that way. instead of "balancing" the class-abilitys it will turn into a never ending patch-cycle. one week all DKs are OP, one week all Templars are OP, one week all Sorcs are OP, one week all NBs are OP...repeat.

Reykice

When you people use the "it will be like WOW" thing... you must understand that from their point of view WOW is THEIR GOAL. If they can make it like wow as in get 10 mil subs they would be happy... so you may want to reconsider that statement. :-)

They should just make it so a physical damage dealer using buff spells(surge, molten weapons, flawless dawnbreaker etc.) and medium armor does as much dps as a caster spamming Crystal Shards. That way both have the slots on their bars used, use their magicka for something and can keep stamina for dodging/sprinting and so on. The melee can dodge more often but that is fine as he will need to.

Something along those lines would keep everyone happy especially considering how hard it is for melee users in the VR content right now.

AlliN

sadly...melee survival is currently crap.
the whole blocking and dodging mechanic is beyond any logic (i mean...block heavy attacks but not the weak attacks...yeah...it should be the other way around, block the weak and use heavy to overcome the block, use bash to interrupt the heavy or dodge out of it...and against ranged attacks, use dodge...but currently all projectiles are sidewinders)

I could not agree more, it's just backwards now.

Also, dps monkeys, please don't post recount from trash fight. Dps on trash is meaningless, and trash can be mass cc-ed and AoE'd back into the stone age.

The only melee that could reliably do dps on boss would be DK with searing strike + twin slashes+molten blades, becasue of the constand dot and almost 100% dps uptime on the target - 2h falls short becasue of insanely long uppercut cast time (during wich you have 0 dps, contrary to DW dot's ticking when you charge heavy), second one would be Templar with Vampire Bane, but he will fall short. Sorc melee can be a caster, and no melee weapon implementation would be beneficial, because all his DoT's are ranged anyways.
NB, well, does not have any melee range dots, Strife has a full range, and might be used for offheal with a bow (again ranged, poison DoT)

Also, by ANY possible logic - with the same survivability, ranged DD will always surpass melee DD. Becasue of sheer convenience of being ranged, and much easier time avoiding boss mechanic.

As it is now, only reasonable melee is "infinite stunlock" NB build with stacked regen Shadow cloack+Surprise attack (1st part of stunlock)+Uppercut(2nd stunlock part. With slightly overcapped regens you can keep *stunable* mob in a lock indefinitely and safely. For a boss it won't work (well for some it does, no spoilers)

Jade1986

reggielee wrote: »

i was wondering when elitism would start rearing its ugly head in this game.

pretty quick apparently.

Dita

Today, a few hours ago, I was manage to finish lvl 20 Dungeon with my VR6 Nightblade, thank you guildies for showing me, what dungeons are look like. Got a skill point too! Awesome! And my skills only locked on me 10 or 15 times during! Yay!

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

they told him to get better dps as he was lagging behind the other sorcerer -

At the 2nd boss he got booted out because his 380 dps was too little and they said they are bringing another ranged caster sorc to replace him.

Melee is too weak.

Rofl.

Kicking people in ESO. That's pathetic. How can anyone take this game that seriously. Did they tell you how pro they are? Or how much talent it takes to play this game?

----

Two-handed weapon wielders are so rare in ESO, that if one is near me, I actually make note of it. It doesn't happen often. This game is all about ranged death.

Heavy armour isn't very effective in this game, and AOE/ranged attacks are devastating. In tough fights, the only way to play melee is cautiously, on the outside rim of AOE circles. Since combat is borked, melee players can connect with hits from long range.

As far as DPS goes. Doubt they can keep up with the rest of the field, considering they are still swinging from the last fight. But definitely shouldn't be kicked for it. This is Elder Scrolls, not Dota 2.

Any DPS is good DPS.

Allyah

There's nothing wrong with the DPS. You just got a crappy group that takes themselves way too seriously.

Endolith

Agree, people who boot people from groups on that basis are idiots. Add to ignore list and find better people to play with. I've done a bunch of pugs and played with guildies and in neither case has any person ever been kicked, even those who are having a hard time with the content.