Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

Lumenn

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

I believe that was the point. An IMPERFECT weave not optimized for dps STILL out damaged what the absolute very BEST of the HA is capable of.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.

Someone has already posted in one of these threads an 80K parse with only holding down the heavy attack button.

I can do it again myself, but I don't have any reason to lie about a heavy attack parse (while defending them, which makes the veiled accusation hilarious) but then also say that I can't even hit 80K on a two bar parse. If I were lying, I'd clearly be inflating my own capabilities.

All I have been doing is trying to reign in the absolutely absurd sky is falling rhetoric, and bring a bit of realism into the possibilities of the oaken builds. One can both defend the builds and speak honestly about their power.

Twig_Garlicshine

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.

Someone has already posted in one of these threads an 80K parse with only holding down the heavy attack button.

I can do it again myself, but I don't have any reason to lie about a heavy attack parse (while defending them, which makes the veiled accusation hilarious) but then also say that I can't even hit 80K on a two bar parse. If I were lying, I'd clearly be inflating my own capabilities.

All I have been doing is trying to reign in the absolutely absurd sky is falling rhetoric, and bring a bit of realism into the possibilities of the oaken builds. One can both defend the builds and speak honestly about their power.

I’ve done it just holding down the button too.
The heavy attack isn’t all of the damage.
I have all perks maxed out all
Divines now. All golded out gear.


The only people saying the Sky are falling are
Those who are worried how other people play.
Those who try to dictate how others enjoy a game. Some with disabilities some who can weave who just don’t like the mechanic. It’s a game this isn’t an e sport.

But you say you can do it with tape put some
Tape on it and do it. Record a video with the tape on the mouse showing your hand wasnt touching the button. Otherwise it’s just a disingenuous claim.


You say you are “defending” them but all your posts show quite the opposite.

jaws343

Here is the parse SC.

Admittedly, it is only 77K. The 80K was with tormentor and my current setup has matriarch equiped.

Video to come as soon as Xbox finishes loading it
.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

Yep and this guy says he is “defending” heavy attack builds some how after saying stuff like this. Alrighty than.

But I didn't call for a nerf of it. What I said was, it would still be fine even if it were nerfed harder.

But it isn't being nerfed harder, and I am not saying it should be.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.

Someone has already posted in one of these threads an 80K parse with only holding down the heavy attack button.

I can do it again myself, but I don't have any reason to lie about a heavy attack parse (while defending them, which makes the veiled accusation hilarious) but then also say that I can't even hit 80K on a two bar parse. If I were lying, I'd clearly be inflating my own capabilities.

All I have been doing is trying to reign in the absolutely absurd sky is falling rhetoric, and bring a bit of realism into the possibilities of the oaken builds. One can both defend the builds and speak honestly about their power.

I’ve done it just holding down the button too.
The heavy attack isn’t all of the damage.
I have all perks maxed out all
Divines now. All golded out gear.


The only people saying the Sky are falling are
Those who are worried how other people play.
Those who try to dictate how others enjoy a game. Some with disabilities some who can weave who just don’t like the mechanic. It’s a game this isn’t an e sport.

But you say you can do it with tape put some
Tape on it and do it. Record a video with the tape on the mouse showing your hand wasnt touching the button. Otherwise it’s just a disingenuous claim.


You say you are “defending” them but all your posts show quite the opposite.

The tape is just a representation of the level of effort. Holding a finger down on a button for 4 and a half minutes and doing nothing else is the point. Tape CAN do that, which is my point. But also, I am not going to tape my controller because, A, I don't have tape, and B, my finger held on the button for 4 and a half minutes and not pressing any skills is the same exact thing.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.

Someone has already posted in one of these threads an 80K parse with only holding down the heavy attack button.

I can do it again myself, but I don't have any reason to lie about a heavy attack parse (while defending them, which makes the veiled accusation hilarious) but then also say that I can't even hit 80K on a two bar parse. If I were lying, I'd clearly be inflating my own capabilities.

All I have been doing is trying to reign in the absolutely absurd sky is falling rhetoric, and bring a bit of realism into the possibilities of the oaken builds. One can both defend the builds and speak honestly about their power.

I’ve done it just holding down the button too.
The heavy attack isn’t all of the damage.
I have all perks maxed out all
Divines now. All golded out gear.


The only people saying the Sky are falling are
Those who are worried how other people play.
Those who try to dictate how others enjoy a game. Some with disabilities some who can weave who just don’t like the mechanic. It’s a game this isn’t an e sport.

But you say you can do it with tape put some
Tape on it and do it. Record a video with the tape on the mouse showing your hand wasnt touching the button. Otherwise it’s just a disingenuous claim.


You say you are “defending” them but all your posts show quite the opposite.

The tape is just a representation of the level of effort. Holding a finger down on a button for 4 and a half minutes and doing nothing else is the point. Tape CAN do that, which is my point. But also, I am not going to tape my controller because, A, I don't have tape, and B, my finger held on the button for 4 and a half minutes and not pressing any skills is the same exact thing.

Again there is different variables in tests. Parsing is testing we don’t know if tape can actually do that.
And from my parse tests the light attack wasn’t even the major source of the damage. It came from pets and dots.

Edit : meant heavy attack not light

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

Yep and this guy says he is “defending” heavy attack builds some how after saying stuff like this. Alrighty than.

But I didn't call for a nerf of it. What I said was, it would still be fine even if it were nerfed harder.

But it isn't being nerfed harder, and I am not saying it should be.

60k is not “fine “ for end game. Which is the number you stated and the highest parse I can Get.
The majorly using this set up isn’t even players reaching even close to those numbers. All you are doing is steaming from the bottom to push up
The top.

It’s like stealing from the poor
So the rich have it all.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.

Someone has already posted in one of these threads an 80K parse with only holding down the heavy attack button.

I can do it again myself, but I don't have any reason to lie about a heavy attack parse (while defending them, which makes the veiled accusation hilarious) but then also say that I can't even hit 80K on a two bar parse. If I were lying, I'd clearly be inflating my own capabilities.

All I have been doing is trying to reign in the absolutely absurd sky is falling rhetoric, and bring a bit of realism into the possibilities of the oaken builds. One can both defend the builds and speak honestly about their power.

I’ve done it just holding down the button too.
The heavy attack isn’t all of the damage.
I have all perks maxed out all
Divines now. All golded out gear.


The only people saying the Sky are falling are
Those who are worried how other people play.
Those who try to dictate how others enjoy a game. Some with disabilities some who can weave who just don’t like the mechanic. It’s a game this isn’t an e sport.

But you say you can do it with tape put some
Tape on it and do it. Record a video with the tape on the mouse showing your hand wasnt touching the button. Otherwise it’s just a disingenuous claim.


You say you are “defending” them but all your posts show quite the opposite.

The tape is just a representation of the level of effort. Holding a finger down on a button for 4 and a half minutes and doing nothing else is the point. Tape CAN do that, which is my point. But also, I am not going to tape my controller because, A, I don't have tape, and B, my finger held on the button for 4 and a half minutes and not pressing any skills is the same exact thing.

Again there is different variables in tests. Parsing is testing we don’t know if tape can actually do that.
And from my parse tests the light attack wasn’t even the major source of the damage. It came from pets and dots.

Edit : meant heavy attack not light

Huh? We absolutely know if tape can hope a trigger down.

There are two variables in that parse screen shot. The build, and my finger holding down a button. That is it.

It is an absolute fact that a piece of tape can hold down a button. I can't honestly believe that I would need to prove that tape can do that.

It is also the case that a player can hold down a button.

And when I post the video, you will see that not a single skill on my bar was used.

Twig_Garlicshine

[/quote]

The tape is just a representation of the level of effort. Holding a finger down on a button for 4 and a half minutes and doing nothing else is the point. Tape CAN do that, which is my point. But also, I am not going to tape my controller because, A, I don't have tape, and B, my finger held on the button for 4 and a half minutes and not pressing any skills is the same exact thing.[/quote]

2 finger typist A (LA)
versus
2 finger typist B (HA)

Both are still 2 finger typists no matter how much you claim one is more effort or more skilled.

(Pulls out his guitar and starts playing.)

PrincessOfThieves

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

Yep and this guy says he is “defending” heavy attack builds some how after saying stuff like this. Alrighty than.

But I didn't call for a nerf of it. What I said was, it would still be fine even if it were nerfed harder.

But it isn't being nerfed harder, and I am not saying it should be.

60k is not “fine “ for end game. Which is the number you stated and the highest parse I can Get.
The majorly using this set up isn’t even players reaching even close to those numbers. All you are doing is steaming from the bottom to push up
The top.

It’s like stealing from the poor
So the rich have it all.

It's fine for vet dungeons and trials if you don't skip mechanics. And it would still allow you to learn these mechanics with training wheels.
You aren't "poor". "The poor" in this situation are the people who cannot use endgame builds (because let's be real, only a tiny minority can squeeze more than 100k dps from them) and don't wanna use the same oakensorc build as everyone else. This even includes other HA builds such as melee brawlers etc.
Oakensorcs are the most privileged players, they get to do vet content on easy mode.

jaws343

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

Yep and this guy says he is “defending” heavy attack builds some how after saying stuff like this. Alrighty than.

But I didn't call for a nerf of it. What I said was, it would still be fine even if it were nerfed harder.

But it isn't being nerfed harder, and I am not saying it should be.

60k is not “fine “ for end game. Which is the number you stated and the highest parse I can Get.
The majorly using this set up isn’t even players reaching even close to those numbers. All you are doing is steaming from the bottom to push up
The top.

It’s like stealing from the poor
So the rich have it all.

It's fine for vet dungeons and trials if you don't skip mechanics. And it would still allow you to learn these mechanics with training wheels.
You aren't "poor". "The poor" in this situation are the people who cannot use endgame builds (because let's be real, only a tiny minority can squeeze more than 100k dps from them) and don't wanna use the same oakensorc build as everyone else. This even includes other HA builds such as melee brawlers etc.
Oakensorcs are the most privileged players, they get to do vet content on easy mode.

Yeah, my solo 57K build has done hardmode and speed run craglorns, sunspire (including the portals on that build), and is now working on Maw and cloudrest. Does just fine. Also does all vet dungeons. And I was clear that it was viable for all but trifectas. Definitely need more dps for those, but not for completes or just running the content.

isadoraisacat

Fkey wrote: »

The tape is just a representation of the level of effort. Holding a finger down on a button for 4 and a half minutes and doing nothing else is the point. Tape CAN do that, which is my point. But also, I am not going to tape my controller because, A, I don't have tape, and B, my finger held on the button for 4 and a half minutes and not pressing any skills is the same exact thing.[/quote]

2 finger typist A (LA)
versus
2 finger typist B (HA)

Both are still 2 finger typists no matter how much you claim one is more effort or more skilled.

(Pulls out his guitar and starts playing.)[/quote]

Same in a bassist and guitarist. It’s like saying slap is faster than some doing runs with a pick. Both are skilled play styles just different.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.

Someone has already posted in one of these threads an 80K parse with only holding down the heavy attack button.

I can do it again myself, but I don't have any reason to lie about a heavy attack parse (while defending them, which makes the veiled accusation hilarious) but then also say that I can't even hit 80K on a two bar parse. If I were lying, I'd clearly be inflating my own capabilities.

All I have been doing is trying to reign in the absolutely absurd sky is falling rhetoric, and bring a bit of realism into the possibilities of the oaken builds. One can both defend the builds and speak honestly about their power.

I’ve done it just holding down the button too.
The heavy attack isn’t all of the damage.
I have all perks maxed out all
Divines now. All golded out gear.


The only people saying the Sky are falling are
Those who are worried how other people play.
Those who try to dictate how others enjoy a game. Some with disabilities some who can weave who just don’t like the mechanic. It’s a game this isn’t an e sport.

But you say you can do it with tape put some
Tape on it and do it. Record a video with the tape on the mouse showing your hand wasnt touching the button. Otherwise it’s just a disingenuous claim.


You say you are “defending” them but all your posts show quite the opposite.

The tape is just a representation of the level of effort. Holding a finger down on a button for 4 and a half minutes and doing nothing else is the point. Tape CAN do that, which is my point. But also, I am not going to tape my controller because, A, I don't have tape, and B, my finger held on the button for 4 and a half minutes and not pressing any skills is the same exact thing.

Again there is different variables in tests. Parsing is testing we don’t know if tape can actually do that.
And from my parse tests the light attack wasn’t even the major source of the damage. It came from pets and dots.

Edit : meant heavy attack not light

Huh? We absolutely know if tape can hope a trigger down.

There are two variables in that parse screen shot. The build, and my finger holding down a button. That is it.

It is an absolute fact that a piece of tape can hold down a button. I can't honestly believe that I would need to prove that tape can do that.

It is also the case that a player can hold down a button.

And when I post the video, you will see that not a single skill on my bar was used.

Again that is YOU. The vast majority are casual players and low level players, who are sucking wind. Who can’t even make it in a normal dungeon. It will take away from those players. All because a few end gamers can max out a build.

isadoraisacat

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

Yep and this guy says he is “defending” heavy attack builds some how after saying stuff like this. Alrighty than.

But I didn't call for a nerf of it. What I said was, it would still be fine even if it were nerfed harder.

But it isn't being nerfed harder, and I am not saying it should be.

60k is not “fine “ for end game. Which is the number you stated and the highest parse I can Get.
The majorly using this set up isn’t even players reaching even close to those numbers. All you are doing is steaming from the bottom to push up
The top.

It’s like stealing from the poor
So the rich have it all.

It's fine for vet dungeons and trials if you don't skip mechanics. And it would still allow you to learn these mechanics with training wheels.
You aren't "poor". "The poor" in this situation are the people who cannot use endgame builds (because let's be real, only a tiny minority can squeeze more than 100k dps from them) and don't wanna use the same oakensorc build as everyone else. This even includes other HA builds such as melee brawlers etc.
Oakensorcs are the most privileged players, they get to do vet content on easy mode.

Not everyone needs “training wheels” some just don’t like the finger waltz style combat and prefer something closer to Skyrim. They are still doing all the mechanics themselves.

This combat is an issue for many elder scrolls fans who want to give this game a try the combat is too far removed from the series. People just want to have fun and do a play style more similar to the real series.

Some can weave (I can ) we just don’t want to fit various reasons. I don’t need to be trained I already know how.

jaws343

Xbox is weird and only records 4 min videos, so I had to do the parse again. 76K dps second parse, again with Matriarch instead of Tormentor, and reasonable +- expectation for a parse with crit rng.

I recorded this one from my phone, while only my index finder held the trigger the entire parse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NWc0jWmiPI

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

Xbox is weird and only records 4 min videos, so I had to do the parse again. 76K dps second parse, again with Matriarch instead of Tormentor, and reasonable +- expectation for a parse with crit rng.

I recorded this one from my phone, while only my index finder held the trigger the entire parse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NWc0jWmiPI

61k for me and this is form letting go off the button due to physical injury with my hand. (Let go once to give hand a test form pain ) Just pets and no dots. Fully maxed out set up and perks.

With my rotation it wound be much higher now.

And holding down a button is not easy for this long time for people with hand issues anyway. For this long without it movement it’s just as painful as weaving. Doing the rotation allows me to compensate for that loss.

isadoraisacat

73k is my best parse which is this one with my fully maxed character using all the dots / rotation and pets.

With the nerfs I’ll be back to hitting like a wet noodle. Hence why I’m already building out a new character and new set up. And changed roles.

PrincessOfThieves

isadoraisacat wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

Yep and this guy says he is “defending” heavy attack builds some how after saying stuff like this. Alrighty than.

But I didn't call for a nerf of it. What I said was, it would still be fine even if it were nerfed harder.

But it isn't being nerfed harder, and I am not saying it should be.

60k is not “fine “ for end game. Which is the number you stated and the highest parse I can Get.
The majorly using this set up isn’t even players reaching even close to those numbers. All you are doing is steaming from the bottom to push up
The top.

It’s like stealing from the poor
So the rich have it all.

It's fine for vet dungeons and trials if you don't skip mechanics. And it would still allow you to learn these mechanics with training wheels.
You aren't "poor". "The poor" in this situation are the people who cannot use endgame builds (because let's be real, only a tiny minority can squeeze more than 100k dps from them) and don't wanna use the same oakensorc build as everyone else. This even includes other HA builds such as melee brawlers etc.
Oakensorcs are the most privileged players, they get to do vet content on easy mode.

Not everyone needs “training wheels” some just don’t like the finger waltz style combat and prefer something closer to Skyrim. They are still doing all the mechanics themselves.

This combat is an issue for many elder scrolls fans who want to give this game a try the combat is too far removed from the series. People just want to have fun and do a play style more similar to the real series.

Some can weave (I can ) we just don’t want to fit various reasons. I don’t need to be trained I already know how.

It's not only about weaving, the meta 1 bar build has a lot of advantages other builds don't. For example, you can survive hits that would kill a regular dd and can heal yourself and teammates (in case of 3 dd runs or vDLC pugs). Other builds have to sacrifice damage to be tanky or to have high sustain, oakensorcs don't.
It really wouldn't be a problem if it was a regular build that just uses HAs instead of LAs. There were builds like this before (Xynode's sorc, for example), they just weren't so overtuned.

Twig_Garlicshine

isadoraisacat wrote: »

73k is my best parse which is this one with my fully maxed character using all the dots / rotation and pets.

With the nerfs I’ll be back to hitting like a wet noodle. Hence why I’m already building out a new character and new set up. And changed roles.

I'm sorry to see you changing your role because of nerfs against an alternate play style.
Yes I used the plural because it won't end here.
I think I'm just done with ESO.
I can play both LA or HA just fine, the community is the reason I will leave, and Zos pretty much agreeing with them.
Basing a game on what I stated before is a mistake:
"The only thing disingenuous in these threads is the continued insistence that:
2 finger typer A (LA) is more skilled and worked long and hard to get there, while
2 finger typer B (HA) is far less skilled and does nothing.

2 finger typer A is a glass cannon and totally reliant on tanks/healers to provide buffs, debuffs, even sustain, and survivability
2 finger typer B is less needy and brings the majority of their own buffs, sustain, and most survivability.

2 finger typer A have in fact gaslit an entire community into believing "LA dps work the hardest in game and did it all themselves.".
Reality = both are 2 finger typists.

There are in fact only 2 real skills required for end game raiding in any mmo.
Ability to get along with others, under pressure.
Situational awareness."

Success or failure in raids should be based on the last 2 points, not dps meters and not meta play style versus alternate play style.

isadoraisacat

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Fkey wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

There it is, the call for further nerfs to an alternate playstyle begins,
before the PTS nerf has even taken place.

Yep and this guy says he is “defending” heavy attack builds some how after saying stuff like this. Alrighty than.

But I didn't call for a nerf of it. What I said was, it would still be fine even if it were nerfed harder.

But it isn't being nerfed harder, and I am not saying it should be.

60k is not “fine “ for end game. Which is the number you stated and the highest parse I can Get.
The majorly using this set up isn’t even players reaching even close to those numbers. All you are doing is steaming from the bottom to push up
The top.

It’s like stealing from the poor
So the rich have it all.

It's fine for vet dungeons and trials if you don't skip mechanics. And it would still allow you to learn these mechanics with training wheels.
You aren't "poor". "The poor" in this situation are the people who cannot use endgame builds (because let's be real, only a tiny minority can squeeze more than 100k dps from them) and don't wanna use the same oakensorc build as everyone else. This even includes other HA builds such as melee brawlers etc.
Oakensorcs are the most privileged players, they get to do vet content on easy mode.

Not everyone needs “training wheels” some just don’t like the finger waltz style combat and prefer something closer to Skyrim. They are still doing all the mechanics themselves.

This combat is an issue for many elder scrolls fans who want to give this game a try the combat is too far removed from the series. People just want to have fun and do a play style more similar to the real series.

Some can weave (I can ) we just don’t want to fit various reasons. I don’t need to be trained I already know how.

It's not only about weaving, the meta 1 bar build has a lot of advantages other builds don't. For example, you can survive hits that would kill a regular dd and can heal yourself and teammates (in case of 3 dd runs or vDLC pugs). Other builds have to sacrifice damage to be tanky or to have high sustain, oakensorcs don't.
It really wouldn't be a problem if it was a regular build that just uses HAs instead of LAs. There were builds like this before (Xynode's sorc, for example), they just weren't so overtuned.

That’s why I said why not remove or lower the other buffs … and leave the empower and storm masters alone ?

Oakensoul ha builds also rely a lot of channels which makes dogging harder. I’ve died more on this build than la build due to less mobility.

I think in the end it just feels like people are upset people in the lower end finally have a way join in other aspects of the game.

That’s the problem with this it’s going to once again push the lower and Mid level players back down.

I don’t agree with these changes and never will.
That’s why I’m just swapping roles and using ha build for solo quests and that’s it.

CP5

The nerf to empower is barely anything, and quickly diluted by literally every other source of damage you deal. And the nerf to storm masters, while large, won't impact its usability in most content. And if you are intent on doing end game content, you just have to deal with balance passes. Balance passes hit everyone, and if you want to do 'hardcore end game,' you need to adjust as they come, like everyone else. It is part of an mmo, it is what happens, and it isn't as if there is a shortage of other sets to use. This response, the mentality of 'I just got nerfed so hard, and now I can't do anything' to such a minor change is what is keeping people from end game content, not the nerfs themselves, but the mindset.

Twig_Garlicshine

CP5 wrote: »

The nerf to empower is barely anything, and quickly diluted by literally every other source of damage you deal. And the nerf to storm masters, while large, won't impact its usability in most content.
This response, the mentality of 'I just got nerfed so hard, and now I can't do anything' to such a minor change is what is keeping people from end game content, not the nerfs themselves, but the mindset.

If it was so minor a change, there was zero reason to do it.
It does not affect most of the population of HA users in a minor way.
It is only minor to those of us who could make any build look good.

Twig_Garlicshine

And we all know
this nerf to HA won't be the last.

isadoraisacat

Fkey wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The nerf to empower is barely anything, and quickly diluted by literally every other source of damage you deal. And the nerf to storm masters, while large, won't impact its usability in most content.
This response, the mentality of 'I just got nerfed so hard, and now I can't do anything' to such a minor change is what is keeping people from end game content, not the nerfs themselves, but the mindset.

If it was so minor a change, there was zero reason to do it.
It does not affect most of the population of HA users in a minor way.
It is only minor to those of us who could make any build look good.

Exactly you think the nerf callers are going to stop after this ? We know the build is toast now.
But that’s the excuse they use it’s “small”. This isn’t even the first nerf to this build.

Not even a peep about storm masters which many of us farmed for and golded out.

They need to stop blowing smoke up our rear ends, the build is done. Time to re-role or go back to the “standard” finger waltz.

TaSheen

isadoraisacat wrote: »

That’s why I said why not remove or lower the other buffs … and leave the empower and storm masters alone ?

Oakensoul ha builds also rely a lot of channels which makes dogging harder. I’ve died more on this build than la build due to less mobility.

I think in the end it just feels like people are upset people in the lower end finally have a way join in other aspects of the game.

That’s the problem with this it’s going to once again push the lower and Mid level players back down.

I don’t agree with these changes and never will.
That’s why I’m just swapping roles and using ha build for solo quests and that’s it.

So you think it's fine to nerf my solo Oakensoul 1bar + class and weapon skills? I'm NOT using HA, I despise HA playstyle, have since I started playing years ago now.

That's pretty one way of you. I'm not involved in the Empower thing or the HA playstyle and the specific armor sets used. I will not be happy if people like you get my play style destroyed.

Twig_Garlicshine

TaSheen wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

That’s why I said why not remove or lower the other buffs … and leave the empower and storm masters alone ?

Oakensoul ha builds also rely a lot of channels which makes dogging harder. I’ve died more on this build than la build due to less mobility.

I think in the end it just feels like people are upset people in the lower end finally have a way join in other aspects of the game.

That’s the problem with this it’s going to once again push the lower and Mid level players back down.

I don’t agree with these changes and never will.
That’s why I’m just swapping roles and using ha build for solo quests and that’s it.

So you think it's fine to nerf my solo Oakensoul 1bar + class and weapon skills? I'm NOT using HA, I despise HA playstyle, have since I started playing years ago now.

That's pretty one way of you. I'm not involved in the Empower thing or the HA playstyle and the specific armor sets used. I will not be happy if people like you get my play style destroyed.

Oh don't worry, your play style will be next and it won't be because of HA.
It will be because "non-bar swappers have no skills and can do content in easy mode."

isadoraisacat

TaSheen wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

That’s why I said why not remove or lower the other buffs … and leave the empower and storm masters alone ?

Oakensoul ha builds also rely a lot of channels which makes dogging harder. I’ve died more on this build than la build due to less mobility.

I think in the end it just feels like people are upset people in the lower end finally have a way join in other aspects of the game.

That’s the problem with this it’s going to once again push the lower and Mid level players back down.

I don’t agree with these changes and never will.
That’s why I’m just swapping roles and using ha build for solo quests and that’s it.

So you think it's fine to nerf my solo Oakensoul 1bar + class and weapon skills? I'm NOT using HA, I despise HA playstyle, have since I started playing years ago now.

That's pretty one way of you. I'm not involved in the Empower thing or the HA playstyle and the specific armor sets used. I will not be happy if people like you get my play style destroyed.

Uhh yeah so I’m against nerfing it so no I didn’t say that if it was up to me everyone would play how they want. But I’m saying it would make more sense to nerf the other aspects in terms of what that person was talking about it.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

isadoraisacat

Fkey wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

That’s why I said why not remove or lower the other buffs … and leave the empower and storm masters alone ?

Oakensoul ha builds also rely a lot of channels which makes dogging harder. I’ve died more on this build than la build due to less mobility.

I think in the end it just feels like people are upset people in the lower end finally have a way join in other aspects of the game.

That’s the problem with this it’s going to once again push the lower and Mid level players back down.

I don’t agree with these changes and never will.
That’s why I’m just swapping roles and using ha build for solo quests and that’s it.

So you think it's fine to nerf my solo Oakensoul 1bar + class and weapon skills? I'm NOT using HA, I despise HA playstyle, have since I started playing years ago now.

That's pretty one way of you. I'm not involved in the Empower thing or the HA playstyle and the specific armor sets used. I will not be happy if people like you get my play style destroyed.

Oh don't worry, your play style will be next and it won't be because of HA.
It will be because "non-bar swappers have no skills and can do content in easy mode."

Not sure why that person is attacking me I’ve been fighting this fight since day one. Very strange.