Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist
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HappyDan✭✭✭
More like 2-3% overall, as someone who claims to parse 120k is pretty funny that you look at raw numbers instead of figuring out how they work, unless you are a dummy monkey parsing all day with no clue how the game works.
So you quit the game after getting a 2-3% nerf?
Lol? every patch someone gets nerfed, HA sorcs were clearing very hard content easily and even outparsing 2 bar builds in real content if you think that was balanced that just shows you either main a HA sorc that doesn't want to get nerfed or you are just blind.
Anyways check skinny cheeks video about the nerf and he explains with math how the nerf is only 2-3 overall damage. Also there are other sets for HA besides storm master, so if you can't do a HA every 8 seconds I'm sorry chief.1 -
HappyDan✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.
It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.
No, it is not. It is -10%. But -10% does not mean a 10% loss.
For example:
Say a Heavy attack does 1,000 base damage.
With Live Empower it will do 1,800 damage.
With PTS Empower it will do 1700 damage.
1700 damage is a 6% drop from 1800 damage.
1700/1800 = 94%
It's even less than 6% cause once you start adding more buffs the difference get smaller and smaller so it gets to around 2-3% once you hit raid buff scenario.
I don't want to be toxic but HA mains really should face reality, in every game (not just mmos, shooters sports games etc) when something over performs it gets nerfed, same thing here a slight 2-3% dps drops is nothing, traditional builds were losing 5-10% dps almost every patch, having a slight nerf turned people from the game? I mean that's a joke like throwing an entire car into a junkyard if you scuff your rims.
It's an MMO stuff gets nerfed and buffed, all the same content you could do on live you can do on pts, fights will take 5-10 seconds longer big deal people made such a fuss out of nothing.1 -
HappyDan✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.
Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?
I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.
Math don't have agendas and biases.
Maybe not but you certainly do
We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.
And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.
I got nothing else to say.
And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.
It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.
I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.
Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.
“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.
As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.
How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.
Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.
This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.
Why are youisadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.
Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?
I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.
Math don't have agendas and biases.
Maybe not but you certainly do
We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.
And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.
I got nothing else to say.
And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.
It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.
I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.
Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.
“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.
As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.
How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.
Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.
This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.
Why are you trying to copy other MMO's? ESO has unique combat, that's the selling point the whole mantra. That's like asking why RX7 has Doritos engine? why don't they use simple corola engine? I mean they are both cars and they are both Japanese? It's just baffling to me how people take a unique combat mmo and try to make it like the bland combat mmo we see everywhere, like bruh.5 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.
It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.
No, it is not. It is -10%. But -10% does not mean a 10% loss.
For example:
Say a Heavy attack does 1,000 base damage.
With Live Empower it will do 1,800 damage.
With PTS Empower it will do 1700 damage.
1700 damage is a 6% drop from 1800 damage.
1700/1800 = 94%
It's even less than 6% cause once you start adding more buffs the difference get smaller and smaller so it gets to around 2-3% once you hit raid buff scenario.
I don't want to be toxic but HA mains really should face reality, in every game (not just mmos, shooters sports games etc) when something over performs it gets nerfed, same thing here a slight 2-3% dps drops is nothing, traditional builds were losing 5-10% dps almost every patch, having a slight nerf turned people from the game? I mean that's a joke like throwing an entire car into a junkyard if you scuff your rims.
It's an MMO stuff gets nerfed and buffed, all the same content you could do on live you can do on pts, fights will take 5-10 seconds longer big deal people made such a fuss out of nothing.
I still find that 2-3% hard to understand. It would imply a denominator of over 330% at the high end, or 500% at the low. We obviously start with:
100% base
70-80% Empower
20% Weapons expert
5% Minor Slayer
5% Minor Beserk
5% Sorcerer buff to shock damage
~5% (rough estimate) Sorcerer reverse execute
That totals to 220% pre-nerf, 210% after, demonstrating that the nerf is under 5% for sure.
But I have trouble seeing how to add even 50% more to that, let alone the 115-280% that would be necessary to get into the 2-3% range.
That said -- I agree that the whole exercise is academic, since a percent or two to DPS here or there really don't matter.
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HappyDan✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.
It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.
No, it is not. It is -10%. But -10% does not mean a 10% loss.
For example:
Say a Heavy attack does 1,000 base damage.
With Live Empower it will do 1,800 damage.
With PTS Empower it will do 1700 damage.
1700 damage is a 6% drop from 1800 damage.
1700/1800 = 94%
It's even less than 6% cause once you start adding more buffs the difference get smaller and smaller so it gets to around 2-3% once you hit raid buff scenario.
I don't want to be toxic but HA mains really should face reality, in every game (not just mmos, shooters sports games etc) when something over performs it gets nerfed, same thing here a slight 2-3% dps drops is nothing, traditional builds were losing 5-10% dps almost every patch, having a slight nerf turned people from the game? I mean that's a joke like throwing an entire car into a junkyard if you scuff your rims.
It's an MMO stuff gets nerfed and buffed, all the same content you could do on live you can do on pts, fights will take 5-10 seconds longer big deal people made such a fuss out of nothing.
I still find that 2-3% hard to understand. It would imply a denominator of over 330% at the high end, or 500% at the low. We obviously start with:
100% base
70-80% Empower
20% Weapons expert
5% Minor Slayer
5% Minor Beserk
5% Sorcerer buff to shock damage
~5% (rough estimate) Sorcerer reverse execute
That totals to 220% pre-nerf, 210% after, demonstrating that the nerf is under 5% for sure.
But I have trouble seeing how to add even 50% more to that, let alone the 115-280% that would be necessary to get into the 2-3% range.
That said -- I agree that the whole exercise is academic, since a percent or two to DPS here or there really don't matter.
Well I said raid buffs, you got Major vuln 10% damage
Powerful assault 307 spell damage
MK 8% more damage
Minor + Major courage 430+ 215 spell damage
zen 5% more damage
Probably more unique buffs I forgot, again I said in raid environment and it's not uncommon to have those up at least for mid-end game.
Yeah stuff like mk/major vuln don't have 100% uptime but you can adjust their uptime to get an average buff % but the exact calculation doesn't matter since the whole point is to make that there are so many buffs that can skewer the 6% and lower it to 2-3% dps difference very easily.2 -
HappyDan✭✭✭And I frogot to mention, empower is only HA damage.
You still have your other sources of damage, like sorc pets ultimates,wall etc.
Those don't get effected by HA.
Just for my curiosity I went to esologs and picked the top HA parser in Asylum,
https://www.esologs.com/reports/HkhZD4vcbzjpXAWM#fight=20&type=summary&source=5
His HA was 43% of his overall dps, so let's say there were no buffs nothing just the straight up 10% empower buff, that dude would have lost 4.3% damage!
That's it, not 100%, your HA doesn't do 100% of your damage even on oaken!
And when people with more exprience in the game try to explain to them with MATHS! that they are wrong and it's not flat 10% (i don't even know how OP got to 15% nerf), they call it propagnda or something like that.
That's the best example for toxic casuals, hold up let me make a meme.
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Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups.
Which is the problem. Those builds were meant to increase access to veteran content. It is meant to be an alternative high end build. Therefore the parses it should be compared to are high end parses. Compared to those parses, it was objectively significantly worse. Companions were meant to help with things like world bosses and normal dungeons, so that is what their damage is compared to. You compare like to like. Vet content is supposed to be balanced top-down, which means top parses are what heavy attack builds are supposed to be balanced around. And they objectively are overall worse than those builds.
What they are responding to is obviously the feedback and backlash. It can't be data because the data does not support a nerf.
Where did You get the impression that one bar HA were meant to be an alternative high end build? Devs themselves said they weren't.
No. The devs did not state that. They stated the opposite.The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds by providing many bonuses that you would get from running extra abilities on your back bar, and a few other named sources that may come from coordinated groups to help make up for the flexibility and specialization loss of having 5 ability choices instead of 10. While we did see the suggestions we’re incorporating now, we didn’t want to go too hard on the set after the heavy nerfs to the original form without some more concrete metrics and evidence, which we have gathered since Update 34 had launched
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview
They also talked in their streams about how they goal of the changes in this time period was to get more into vet content. So you're gonna have to put a citation on that as they explicitly shouted out the heavy attack builds when making these changes.It's funny that now argumentation for leaving one bar HA setups as they are is to look at top parses so basically now people want for balance to resolve around top 1% when ironically before oakensoul appearance excatly opposite claims were used, to not take top 1% into consideration when balancing the game.
Vet trials should be balanced around the top.
Normal content should be balanced around the masses.
Vet dungeons should be balanced in-between as it's considered intermediate content.
Vet content shouldn't be balanced around people who aren't trying to do vet content makes perfect sense to me. And it was the general wisdom of the forums until Oakensoul. Are you saying that Vet Rockgrove should be balanced around the same people who can't outdamage the companions?
vAS+2 is dominated by Oakensorcs, you only see variety in builds as you look lower in difficulty, which means if you aren't bringing an Oakensoul build into that trial, your making things harder on yourself and your group. As was shown in Skinny Cheeks video, when you take into account all the buffs heavy attacks get in organized content, the damage loss to heavy attacks is incredibly low, and the only substantial nerf is the nerf to storm master.
As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »
[snip]
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You have been provided enough information to show heavy attack builds are not “over performing” save for a very minor small select few the average player is doing less dps and not even using the build to compete in “end game” content and has no bearing on those players to begin with.
Second of all this is the second time this play style has been nerfed for similar reasons and I will bet you my life it won’t be the last. There has been pages and pages of people like you complaining calling for nerfs.. and you won’t stop after this.
[snip] At this point we have all showed proof that this is not a positive direction. All you are doing at this point is arguing and being aggressive to people who share different view points.
once again the nerf it’s self isn’t the problem (it’s not helpful for us ) but it’s the long term effects this will have on a play style many of us prefer.
[snip]
I've been provided lots of subjective opinions not supported by factual data that's for sure. If one bar HA setups wouldn't be overpeorfming than so many people wouldnt run excatly the same one setup and there woulnd't be logs like the ones I linked where 92 ouf of top 100 parses in vAS are performed by one bar HA setups.
it's actually the first time when this playstyle is being nerfed. First time when oakensoul was changed to provide minor buffs instead of major ones there was also empower added to it and empower itself was changed from 40% to 80%. Major force was changed to minor force which is actually a better buff when we consider group content because major force is given by group when You usually need to provide minor force from Your own abilities. There was also minor slayer added which allowed HA setups to not care about sets that provide that buff and compensated loss of some other major buffs. Fact that You gained empower and minor force created lots of free bar space. The best one bar HA parses started to occur after that supposed "nerf". Overal that nerf You are talking about was an actuall buff to one bar HA playstyle. Even devs themsleves commented the change by saying "It may end up even stronger on some builds now, depending on your focus". And reasons why oakensoul was changed first time are not the same as right now. First time when it was changed is was done mainly because of the issues that mythic was causing in PvP not PvE. I am not complaining or calling for nerfs I am just explaining why the nerf is happening and that it's not a big nerf. That's a big difference but You are so fixated on Your point of view that You can't even accept that.
No proff was given. Just subjective arguments which were mostly already disproven. You have shown nothing. You just gave Your subjective opinion not supported by any reliable data whatsoever.
Long term effects will be the same as they always have been. People will adapt and move on. We've been there for over 9 years already, better get used to it. Long term effects will be also that other setups will have a chance to be effective in low and mid game instead of whole game being taken over by one HA setup.
You could adapt too, but instead you call for nerfs.
[edited to remove quote]
So yes, the game changes, the current state of Oakensoul provides builds that are easy to use, incredibly durable, with unlimited sustain and great aoe damage, that are dominating and choking out alternative playstyles and making content stagnant as this build offers as much damage as vet content needs while also being easier to use and more forgiving as well. The game changes, and it will until it comes to an end, your own advice may be worth listening to, and hopefully ZOS will introduce more sets to expand on the number of build options heavy attack builds can use, but as it stands heavy attack builds are strong, are dominating in several areas, and are getting a very slight nerf compared to what ZOS has delt in the past.
An interesting observation from this situation is that those who were cheering U35 for "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling" on those "toxic elitist end gamers" aren't too crazy about lowering ceilings when they are participating in end game content with parses much closer to the ceiling.1 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »And who do you trust, people who dedicate large amounts of time actually figuring out the math behind the scenes, or people who just read the patch notes and immediately come to conclusions as to how things will pan out. They make content for ESO, they benefit from ESO thriving, why do you think they have an evil agenda to try to mislead people? Does the math not make sense? And, for his video in particular, did his efforts to try to calm this insane reaction not seem genuine?
There isn't a cabal trying to ruin the game for you, and this change isn't the end of the world. Math is math, and while the change to storm master does come with some changes that almost everyone else who does end game content is already used to doing, the simple fact is balance changes, and if you're trying to do end game content, adjusting to balance passes is the norm. No one is demanding you play a particular way, but if you're trying to do challenging content, and you need to meet particular standards to do that content, and the minutia of reaching that bar changes from one patch to the next, welcome to what everyone else already does.
Others aren't dictating how you should enjoy the game, they are explaining the math of how the game works to people can make informed decisions about how to reach the goals they need to in order to do the content they want to do.
Others are dictating though those calling for nerfs, those being rude / condescending and following people around threads to insult them simply because they have a different view point.
a back seat and what’s good for all players and not just top elite should be considered. But sure let’s live our lives on what celebs and influencers tell us.
This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.
Nobody is dictating how you should play and it may not be an esport but it is a multiplayer game and since other people are affected balancing choices must be made. If you choose to play group content there is a finite range of builds that will allow you to contribute to the group and pull your own weight in that content because it's not fair to sucker people into carrying you through group content because you wanted to use your single player Skyrim build instead using an actual build for your role in the MMO you are playing. I feel a lot of your wailing and gnashing of teeth comes from the fact that you are playing an MMO but want it to be a single player TES game and those two genres are mutually exclusive. Math and a combat vision is the basis of balancing - you cannot balance around player's feelings since they are subjective and different for everyone. The upcoming nerf has ZERO to do with your favorite mythical ESO creature "the elites" and everything to do with ZoS' beloved spreadsheet balancing and combat vision.4 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.
It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.
No, it is not. It is -10%. But -10% does not mean a 10% loss.
For example:
Say a Heavy attack does 1,000 base damage.
With Live Empower it will do 1,800 damage.
With PTS Empower it will do 1700 damage.
1700 damage is a 6% drop from 1800 damage.
1700/1800 = 94%
It's even less than 6% cause once you start adding more buffs the difference get smaller and smaller so it gets to around 2-3% once you hit raid buff scenario.
I don't want to be toxic but HA mains really should face reality, in every game (not just mmos, shooters sports games etc) when something over performs it gets nerfed, same thing here a slight 2-3% dps drops is nothing, traditional builds were losing 5-10% dps almost every patch, having a slight nerf turned people from the game? I mean that's a joke like throwing an entire car into a junkyard if you scuff your rims.
It's an MMO stuff gets nerfed and buffed, all the same content you could do on live you can do on pts, fights will take 5-10 seconds longer big deal people made such a fuss out of nothing.
I still find that 2-3% hard to understand. It would imply a denominator of over 330% at the high end, or 500% at the low. We obviously start with:
100% base
70-80% Empower
20% Weapons expert
5% Minor Slayer
5% Minor Beserk
5% Sorcerer buff to shock damage
~5% (rough estimate) Sorcerer reverse execute
That totals to 220% pre-nerf, 210% after, demonstrating that the nerf is under 5% for sure.
But I have trouble seeing how to add even 50% more to that, let alone the 115-280% that would be necessary to get into the 2-3% range.
That said -- I agree that the whole exercise is academic, since a percent or two to DPS here or there really don't matter.
Well I said raid buffs, you got Major vuln 10% damage
Powerful assault 307 spell damage
MK 8% more damage
Minor + Major courage 430+ 215 spell damage
zen 5% more damage
Probably more unique buffs I forgot, again I said in raid environment and it's not uncommon to have those up at least for mid-end game.
Yeah stuff like mk/major vuln don't have 100% uptime but you can adjust their uptime to get an average buff % but the exact calculation doesn't matter since the whole point is to make that there are so many buffs that can skewer the 6% and lower it to 2-3% dps difference very easily.
The Spell Damage buffs help explain the gap between a trial dummy and a simpler dummy. But I think they don't actually affect the particular calculation we were talking about. Those are affected only by actual +damage -- MK, Zen, vulnerability, Major Slayer, etc. (And other CP, if one so chooses.)
Anyhow, thanks for listing some other buffs I wasn't thinking about!0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭And I frogot to mention, empower is only HA damage.
You still have your other sources of damage, like sorc pets ultimates,wall etc.
Those don't get effected by HA.
Just for my curiosity I went to esologs and picked the top HA parser in Asylum,
https://www.esologs.com/reports/HkhZD4vcbzjpXAWM#fight=20&type=summary&source=5
His HA was 43% of his overall dps, so let's say there were no buffs nothing just the straight up 10% empower buff, that dude would have lost 4.3% damage!
That's it, not 100%, your HA doesn't do 100% of your damage even on oaken!
And when people with more exprience in the game try to explain to them with MATHS! that they are wrong and it's not flat 10% (i don't even know how OP got to 15% nerf), they call it propagnda or something like that.
That's the best example for toxic casuals, hold up let me make a meme.
I think a lot of the problem is people upset about the Storm Master nerf who don't see their way clear to farm Undaunted Inflitrator to replace it.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.
It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.
No, it is not. It is -10%. But -10% does not mean a 10% loss.
For example:
Say a Heavy attack does 1,000 base damage.
With Live Empower it will do 1,800 damage.
With PTS Empower it will do 1700 damage.
1700 damage is a 6% drop from 1800 damage.
1700/1800 = 94%
It's even less than 6% cause once you start adding more buffs the difference get smaller and smaller so it gets to around 2-3% once you hit raid buff scenario.
I don't want to be toxic but HA mains really should face reality, in every game (not just mmos, shooters sports games etc) when something over performs it gets nerfed, same thing here a slight 2-3% dps drops is nothing, traditional builds were losing 5-10% dps almost every patch, having a slight nerf turned people from the game? I mean that's a joke like throwing an entire car into a junkyard if you scuff your rims.
It's an MMO stuff gets nerfed and buffed, all the same content you could do on live you can do on pts, fights will take 5-10 seconds longer big deal people made such a fuss out of nothing.
I still find that 2-3% hard to understand. It would imply a denominator of over 330% at the high end, or 500% at the low. We obviously start with:
100% base
70-80% Empower
20% Weapons expert
5% Minor Slayer
5% Minor Beserk
5% Sorcerer buff to shock damage
~5% (rough estimate) Sorcerer reverse execute
That totals to 220% pre-nerf, 210% after, demonstrating that the nerf is under 5% for sure.
But I have trouble seeing how to add even 50% more to that, let alone the 115-280% that would be necessary to get into the 2-3% range.
That said -- I agree that the whole exercise is academic, since a percent or two to DPS here or there really don't matter.
Well I said raid buffs, you got Major vuln 10% damage
Powerful assault 307 spell damage
MK 8% more damage
Minor + Major courage 430+ 215 spell damage
zen 5% more damage
Probably more unique buffs I forgot, again I said in raid environment and it's not uncommon to have those up at least for mid-end game.
Yeah stuff like mk/major vuln don't have 100% uptime but you can adjust their uptime to get an average buff % but the exact calculation doesn't matter since the whole point is to make that there are so many buffs that can skewer the 6% and lower it to 2-3% dps difference very easily.
This particular buffs mentioned do not interfer with additive percentage buffs formula. Wep/spell dmg buffs are just increasing the base value before percentages are added so they don't change anything for percentage dmg buffs and debuffs that increase target dmg taken like vulnerability or MK are separate category applied after percentage dmg buffs.
Empower strenght percentage wise diminishes only when we are adding more percentage dmg buffs.Edited by Galeriano on May 3, 2023 11:53AM1 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »I think a lot of the problem is people upset about the Storm Master nerf who don't see their way clear to farm Undaunted Inflitrator to replace it.
With melee range being increased to 7 meters, I think that Noble Duelist Silks would be a great alternative too.
"Some enjoy bringing grief to others. They remind M'aiq of mudcrabs—horrible creatures, with no redeeming qualities."0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »I think a lot of the problem is people upset about the Storm Master nerf who don't see their way clear to farm Undaunted Inflitrator to replace it.
With melee range being increased to 7 meters, I think that Noble Duelist Silks would be a great alternative too.
That depends on one's playstyle preferences. I, for example, am too committed to a ranged playstyle to like that option. My wife, however, is much keener to farm Blessed Crucible.3 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SirLeeMinion wrote: »
This is "as run" for solo content, tested on the 6M dummy. This means matriarch has heals rather than damage, and a skill is devoted to major breach. I tend to run razor caltrops over elemental susceptibility, but I don't have that on this character. In a PUG with a real tank, this would be hurricane rather than a major breach skill.... I would love to see a parse difference on a 3 or 6 million dummies to more easily see the difference this will make on the solo player since there is no way they will have all the buffs/debuffs of the trial target dummy.
Live (note that I've included my skill bar because Bandits UI shows it incorrectly):
Same build on PTS:
For perspective, before the trial dummy existed and prior to the Matriarch nerfs from long ago, my "as run" trial build parsed at 42.5 K self buffed on the 6M dummy. So, although Oaken's buffs add a bit more defensive strength to the build, the overall DPS of a pet-sorc heavy attack build on live is pretty comparable to where it was many years ago.
Hope SirLeeMinion does not mind me reposting this from thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631804/heavy-attack-nerf-by-the-numbers/p1
Think it shows that for a solo build it is almost a 10% overall nerf. Not everything is about super optimized 12-man trial. Would say for most people running HA builds it will be about 10% nerf overall and not the 2-3% most people are saying.
Live - 42,478 dps
PTS - 38,236 dps
Stay safe
9 -
HappyDan✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »And I frogot to mention, empower is only HA damage.
You still have your other sources of damage, like sorc pets ultimates,wall etc.
Those don't get effected by HA.
Just for my curiosity I went to esologs and picked the top HA parser in Asylum,
https://www.esologs.com/reports/HkhZD4vcbzjpXAWM#fight=20&type=summary&source=5
His HA was 43% of his overall dps, so let's say there were no buffs nothing just the straight up 10% empower buff, that dude would have lost 4.3% damage!
That's it, not 100%, your HA doesn't do 100% of your damage even on oaken!
And when people with more exprience in the game try to explain to them with MATHS! that they are wrong and it's not flat 10% (i don't even know how OP got to 15% nerf), they call it propagnda or something like that.
That's the best example for toxic casuals, hold up let me make a meme.
I think a lot of the problem is people upset about the Storm Master nerf who don't see their way clear to farm Undaunted Inflitrator to replace it.
Well that's MMO's for you, sets get nerfed and buffed all the time, in the past up until like pre high isle everyone were rocking the same set everywhere and nowadays there is so much choice for dps to choose from and the dps difference between the meta sets is less than 2-3% so there isn't a BiS like there was 1 and a half years ago.
But yeah there aren't many HA sets (at least not the same amount there are for normal dps), but I guess that's fair cause zos didn't cater for HA's as it was quite a niche prior to Nefas's IR build when it exploded everywhere, I assume now zos will work more on HA sets, it's just that they didn't have to in the past as there was no demand so we don't have a big arrange of sets, but still the set wasn't fully nerfed just the uptimes, if they want to fully utilize the set they gotta play smarter, now on live I can hop on my sorc (even without storm master), open a movie on a 2nd monitor go to vVH/vMA and knock a perfect run while eating M&M's. Like the build is way overtuned cause if I'd go with a proper build to those arena's I'd have to focus up and really pay attention to not get clapped.3 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭SirLeeMinion wrote: »
This is "as run" for solo content, tested on the 6M dummy. This means matriarch has heals rather than damage, and a skill is devoted to major breach. I tend to run razor caltrops over elemental susceptibility, but I don't have that on this character. In a PUG with a real tank, this would be hurricane rather than a major breach skill.... I would love to see a parse difference on a 3 or 6 million dummies to more easily see the difference this will make on the solo player since there is no way they will have all the buffs/debuffs of the trial target dummy.
Live (note that I've included my skill bar because Bandits UI shows it incorrectly):
Same build on PTS:
For perspective, before the trial dummy existed and prior to the Matriarch nerfs from long ago, my "as run" trial build parsed at 42.5 K self buffed on the 6M dummy. So, although Oaken's buffs add a bit more defensive strength to the build, the overall DPS of a pet-sorc heavy attack build on live is pretty comparable to where it was many years ago.
Hope SirLeeMinion does not mind me reposting this from thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631804/heavy-attack-nerf-by-the-numbers/p1
Think it shows that for a solo build it is almost a 10% overall nerf. Not everything is about super optimized 12-man trial. Would say for most people running HA builds it will be about 10% nerf overall and not the 2-3% most people are saying.
Live - 42,478 dps
PTS - 38,236 dps
Stay safe
Some armor passives are not working currently on pts. He's missing 10% crit dmg from dexterity. So yea, its only 3% nerf.
And even if they nerfed it 50%, it would still be useful for most people because the average player cant parse 50k with 2 bar builds. And it would be more than viable for solo due to its tankyness.1 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭You cannot compare a Sergeant's Mail HA dummy parse with a LA dummy parse and they cry HA is inferior. It's disingenuous because the LA build will not have the same survivability in content.
If you want a fair comparison you need to compare with a LA build that has a 20k+ resistances, 29k+ health and zero problems with sustain and still hits 120+k
I'll wait while you find one.
You can't just complain about HA doing lower damage without looking at all the benefits that come with the HA Oakensoul build, and survivability is one of the bigger benefits.9 -
Gendizer✭✭✭I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.4 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭
That's a lot of skills and weapons to use with Oakensoul.I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
This game is designed for a specific group of players, not everyone. While anyone can spend money in the Crown Store, only some players are able to fully enjoy the game. It's that simple!
6 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
It’s ok I get max 32k is the highest average aboit 28-30k after the nerf I’ll be hitting like a sack of wet potato’s on my build after the live pts, and I’m already sucking wind before. Spent hours grinding out levels / farming / Golding out gear. The average ha build was not hitting high dps but trying to be viable. Now i go from viable back to sucking wind, and thus pushed out of content in the game I pay for if I want to be a dps with hand issues.
Edit:
I’m currently farming healing gear and switching to a healer for group content and my HA build for questing / solo content. Seems to be really the way to go at this point.Edited by isadoraisacat on May 6, 2023 9:36PM5 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
It’s ok I get max 32k is the highest average aboit 28-30k after the nerf I’ll be hitting like a sack of wet potato’s on my build after the live pts, and I’m already sucking wind before. Spent hours grinding out levels / farming / Golding out gear. The average ha build was not hitting high dps but trying to be viable. Now i go from viable back to sucking wind, and thus pushed out of content in the game I pay for if I want to be a dps with hand issues.
Edit:
I’m currently farming healing gear and switching to a healer for group content and my HA build for questing / solo content. Seems to be really the way to go at this point.
Yeah, that is what a lot of these "nerf HA and oak ring" posters fail to understand. Not everyone using oak, is pulling huge numbers. Many are not using a meta build and just using the oak ring to help.
So with necrom the elite dps players stay the same, but mid and lower tier players get a nerf. And the "delta between top and bottom" gets wider. It's crazy to think that people believe this will be good for the game.12 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
It’s ok I get max 32k is the highest average aboit 28-30k after the nerf I’ll be hitting like a sack of wet potato’s on my build after the live pts, and I’m already sucking wind before. Spent hours grinding out levels / farming / Golding out gear. The average ha build was not hitting high dps but trying to be viable. Now i go from viable back to sucking wind, and thus pushed out of content in the game I pay for if I want to be a dps with hand issues.
Edit:
I’m currently farming healing gear and switching to a healer for group content and my HA build for questing / solo content. Seems to be really the way to go at this point.
Yeah, that is what a lot of these "nerf HA and oak ring" posters fail to understand. Not everyone using oak, is pulling huge numbers. Many are not using a meta build and just using the oak ring to help.
So with necrom the elite dps players stay the same, but mid and lower tier players get a nerf. And the "delta between top and bottom" gets wider. It's crazy to think that people believe this will be good for the game.
Yep unfortunately I have just accepted it. The HA build will be ok for questing / solo. But going forward in just going to be a healer to experience other parts of the game.
I hope some how zos sees people’s comments and realizes this is not a positive direction for the game.
But if they don’t … I’m just going to need to make changes so I can enjoy the content I paid for.5 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
It’s ok I get max 32k is the highest average aboit 28-30k after the nerf I’ll be hitting like a sack of wet potato’s on my build after the live pts, and I’m already sucking wind before. Spent hours grinding out levels / farming / Golding out gear. The average ha build was not hitting high dps but trying to be viable. Now i go from viable back to sucking wind, and thus pushed out of content in the game I pay for if I want to be a dps with hand issues.
Edit:
I’m currently farming healing gear and switching to a healer for group content and my HA build for questing / solo content. Seems to be really the way to go at this point.
Yeah, that is what a lot of these "nerf HA and oak ring" posters fail to understand. Not everyone using oak, is pulling huge numbers. Many are not using a meta build and just using the oak ring to help.
So with necrom the elite dps players stay the same, but mid and lower tier players get a nerf. And the "delta between top and bottom" gets wider. It's crazy to think that people believe this will be good for the game.
Yep unfortunately I have just accepted it. The HA build will be ok for questing / solo. But going forward in just going to be a healer to experience other parts of the game.
I hope some how zos sees people’s comments and realizes this is not a positive direction for the game.
But if they don’t … I’m just going to need to make changes so I can enjoy the content I paid for.
Ultimately it’s a bit self defeating because if there is less people doing more difficult content, Zos may decide to put less of the content in the game. For example, we probably don’t get new solo arenas that often because the amount of people capable of doing them may not be that high.
I just find this a troubling move for Necrom in particular as in this chapter they have decided to take World Events AWAY from new/casual/solo players, and make it something designed for higher dps and grouped content. (And on top of that placing a ToT deck component behind it as well.)
So they shifted content away from lower tier players, nerfed those players, and placed ToT content in the more difficult content that all dps/support tiers of players are participating in.Edited by BlueRaven on May 7, 2023 9:09AM9 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
It’s ok I get max 32k is the highest average aboit 28-30k after the nerf I’ll be hitting like a sack of wet potato’s on my build after the live pts, and I’m already sucking wind before. Spent hours grinding out levels / farming / Golding out gear. The average ha build was not hitting high dps but trying to be viable. Now i go from viable back to sucking wind, and thus pushed out of content in the game I pay for if I want to be a dps with hand issues.
Edit:
I’m currently farming healing gear and switching to a healer for group content and my HA build for questing / solo content. Seems to be really the way to go at this point.
Yeah, that is what a lot of these "nerf HA and oak ring" posters fail to understand. Not everyone using oak, is pulling huge numbers. Many are not using a meta build and just using the oak ring to help.
So with necrom the elite dps players stay the same, but mid and lower tier players get a nerf. And the "delta between top and bottom" gets wider. It's crazy to think that people believe this will be good for the game.
Yep unfortunately I have just accepted it. The HA build will be ok for questing / solo. But going forward in just going to be a healer to experience other parts of the game.
I hope some how zos sees people’s comments and realizes this is not a positive direction for the game.
But if they don’t … I’m just going to need to make changes so I can enjoy the content I paid for.
Ultimately it’s a bit self defeating because if there is less people doing more difficult content, Zos may decide to put less of the content in the game. For example, we probably don’t get new solo arenas that often because the amount of people capable of doing them may not be that high.
I just find this a troubling move for Necrom in particular as in this chapter they have decided to take World Events AWAY from new/casual/solo players, and make it something designed for higher dps and grouped content. (And on top of that placing a ToT deck component behind it as well.)
So they shifted content away from lower tier players, nerfed those players, and placed ToT content in the more difficult content that all dps/support tiers of players are participating in.
Agreed I feel this is a mistake they are making and unfortunately will have to learn from the feed back after the chapter releases and a year or so later after people aren’t enjoying it.
I’m gonna try to make my own adjustments and change my role (not happy about it) and play through the story main quest. But I don’t see myself enjoying the group content anymore unfortunately.5 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭I’ve actually played a grand total of one hour since the nerfs were announced. I had just farmed Oakensoul and the sets and it took all of my free time and resources to improve and put the right traits and enchants on them. Maybe bad timing for me but I’m feeling yanked around and not really motivated for eso right now. Probably by the time I feel like playing and do the dull dungeon spam that will probably just get nerfed too. I was actually really enjoying eso but this took the wind out of my sails.
Other mmos I play don’t do this since they have vertical progression. New gear may come out but I never get weaker. For GW2 and it’s horizontal approach don’t recall getting weaker either with constant changes.Edited by AScarlato on May 7, 2023 2:18PM7 -
BasP✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
It’s ok I get max 32k is the highest average aboit 28-30k after the nerf I’ll be hitting like a sack of wet potato’s on my build after the live pts, and I’m already sucking wind before. Spent hours grinding out levels / farming / Golding out gear. The average ha build was not hitting high dps but trying to be viable. Now i go from viable back to sucking wind, and thus pushed out of content in the game I pay for if I want to be a dps with hand issues.
I'm just wondering, have you done a parse on the PTS yourself before deciding you can only be a healer in group content from now on? If you loose 10% - 15% damage too, which seems to be common for HA builds (with Storm Master), your max DPS would still be around 27K to 28K. It's never fun if your build gets nerfed, but perhaps it won't be the end of the world.4 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭I’ve actually played a grand total of one hour since the nerfs were announced. I had just farmed Oakensoul and the sets and it took all of my free time and resources to improve and put the right traits and enchants on them. Maybe bad timing for me but I’m feeling yanked around and not really motivated for eso right now. Probably by the time I feel like playing and do the dull dungeon spam that will probably just get nerfed too. I was actually really enjoying eso but this took the wind out of my sails.
Other mmos I play don’t do this since they have vertical progression. New gear may come out but I never get weaker. For GW2 and it’s horizontal approach don’t recall getting weaker either with constant changes.
Yeah I too farmed it recently and all the sets farmed for hours. Golded almost everything out. Farmed levels. It sucks6 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.
Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!
I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.
It’s ok I get max 32k is the highest average aboit 28-30k after the nerf I’ll be hitting like a sack of wet potato’s on my build after the live pts, and I’m already sucking wind before. Spent hours grinding out levels / farming / Golding out gear. The average ha build was not hitting high dps but trying to be viable. Now i go from viable back to sucking wind, and thus pushed out of content in the game I pay for if I want to be a dps with hand issues.
I'm just wondering, have you done a parse on the PTS yourself before deciding you can only be a healer in group content from now on? If you loose 10% - 15% damage too, which seems to be common for HA builds (with Storm Master), your max DPS would still be around 27K to 28K. It's never fun if your build gets nerfed, but perhaps it won't be the end of the world.
I don’t have enough space to test it out. But talking to those who have in the similar numbers in at the nerf does a lot more damage to the build than what you are showing. There also have been tests on this forum showing how bad it is. Not only that we know they will continue to call for more nerfs and that HA players aren’t wanted in group settings. So I’d rather use HA build for my solo play and just switch to a healer for group content. People said we need it “adapt” so in adapting by just changing my role.3 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I had a random thought about this topic the other day.
During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.
I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.
That's some irony right there.
What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."
The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.
But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?
To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.4 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭I had a random thought about this topic the other day.
During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.
I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.
That's some irony right there.
What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."
The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.
But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?
To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.
I actually was solo questing. I was not involved with roles or dps until this year when I decided I wanted to experience more stories locked behind group dungeons. So I wasn’t involved in these discussions. But I don’t believe in nerfs on either side of the fence.
The main issue with this nerf is it affects the lower end players who are using this for solo play and to join some group content they weren’t able to before.
I’m not here for “drama” I just want to enjoy the content I paid for and make my time put in grinding scrying / farming the leads / farming gear / leveling and Golding out gear still worth it.
From what I see HA build will be “ok”
For solo play but likely I won’t be able to solo a world boss anymore. But I will
Try to keep leveling cp points and hope I can push my dps back to 30k which is perfect for normal dungeons and world bosses. With the cmx data actually showing during a dungeon I’m hitting average 14-20 k dps when I’m actually fighting a boss, vs 3 mill
Parse dummy test and 59k trial dummy test.
It will be a massive nerf to my lower level. Which is why I’d rather just switch to healer for group content just sucks I need to spend hours farming and Golding out gear when I already just did that for this build prior to the nerf. And this won’t be the end of it people will still Complain and call for more nerfs on ha. I’d rather get ahead of it and just switch my role.3
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