Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

BlueRaven · May 2023

vsrs_au wrote: »

I don't understand the comments about the Necrom world events. Is it a group-only mechanic, or are they just too strong for most players to solo? What's the deal there? (or is there more info in the PTS sub-forum)

I am going to explain it as quickly as I can, but really this requires a different thread.

Previously in eso, world events were things that happened “in the overland world” you would see a dragon, a harrowstorm, a vent, etc. there you could stop and fight them along with other people on the server at the same time. And receive an award, regardless of if you were on a daily quest or not.

There was one semi alternate version with portals in Blackwood, but those still had a communal aspect to them as they acted as a public dungeon of sorts.

Ok?
Now throw all of that previous concept away. “World events” act very differently in Necrom.

There are these roaming world bosses, as far as I can tell they only drop a few minimal gold coins (I tested this on the pts in the first week, this could have been changed or a bug). So joining in and killing them is not at all rewarding. And for the common player these world bosses are far from soloable.
They are similar in concept, but hit harder than the roaming world bosses in Deadlands and Galen, with additional mechanics. (They are fairly common though.)

But the world event daily quest requires you to kill five of them to claim “ichors”, which only drop if you have the daily.

This is step one.

Step two, the five ichors allows you to open a portal to what is effectively a four person dungeon.

This is not a public dungeon.

But a closed instance space for up to four players. And the rest plays out as if it was, in fact, a dungeon (with some alternative wings in there as well).

Now, all party members need five ichors and ichors only drop if you are on the quest. So just asking for help in guild chat requires you to share the quest and kill world bosses until everyone has the same amount. (Apparently. [For obvious reasons there were not many people testing this on the pts.]) A stranger passing by is of no help, unless they too are in a similar spot on their own daily quest. (And then you have to group with them and all the complications grouping entails.)

The “dungeon” difficulty falls somewhere between normal and vet difficulty so a common player is not soloing this second part.

And there is no random queue function for this, so you have to find and join a group on your own.

Remember all of this is a single “daily world event” quest.

So “world events” an event that happens in the open world are gone, replaced by what is effectively an old school Craglorn style instanced daily. (With limited rewards.)
What’s more if you are a ToT player you have to do these to complete the new deck.

Official feed back post here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7866944#Comment_7866944

My own thread about it here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631700/bastion-nymic-daily-who-is-the-intended-audience-for-this/p1

vsrs_au · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

I don't understand the comments about the Necrom world events. Is it a group-only mechanic, or are they just too strong for most players to solo? What's the deal there? (or is there more info in the PTS sub-forum)

I am going to explain it as quickly as I can, but really this requires a different thread.

Previously in eso, world events were things that happened “in the overland world” you would see a dragon, a harrowstorm, a vent, etc. there you could stop and fight them along with other people on the server at the same time. And receive an award, regardless of if you were on a daily quest or not.

There was one semi alternate version with portals in Blackwood, but those still had a communal aspect to them as they acted as a public dungeon of sorts.

Ok?
Now throw all of that previous concept away. “World events” act very differently in Necrom.

There are these roaming world bosses, as far as I can tell they only drop a few minimal gold coins (I tested this on the pts in the first week, this could have been changed or a bug). So joining in and killing them is not at all rewarding. And for the common player these world bosses are far from soloable.
They are similar in concept, but hit harder than the roaming world bosses in Deadlands and Galen, with additional mechanics. (They are fairly common though.)

But the world event daily quest requires you to kill five of them to claim “ichors”, which only drop if you have the daily.

This is step one.

Step two, the five ichors allows you to open a portal to what is effectively a four person dungeon.

This is not a public dungeon.

But a closed instance space for up to four players. And the rest plays out as if it was, in fact, a dungeon (with some alternative wings in there as well).

Now, all party members need five ichors and ichors only drop if you are on the quest. So just asking for help in guild chat requires you to share the quest and kill world bosses until everyone has the same amount. (Apparently. [For obvious reasons there were not many people testing this on the pts.]) A stranger passing by is of no help, unless they too are in a similar spot on their own daily quest. (And then you have to group with them and all the complications grouping entails.)

The “dungeon” difficulty falls somewhere between normal and vet difficulty so a common player is not soloing this second part.

And there is no random queue function for this, so you have to find and join a group on your own.

Remember all of this is a single “daily world event” quest.

So “world events” an event that happens in the open world are gone, replaced by what is effectively an old school Craglorn style instanced daily. (With limited rewards.)
What’s more if you are a ToT player you have to do these to complete the new deck.

Official feed back post here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7866944#Comment_7866944

My own thread about it here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631700/bastion-nymic-daily-who-is-the-intended-audience-for-this/p1

Well, I hope for anyone that *does* do it, the reward is worth it! It sounds like lot of work for a daily quest, even with players grouping to do part/all of it.

BlueRaven · May 2023

vsrs_au wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

I don't understand the comments about the Necrom world events. Is it a group-only mechanic, or are they just too strong for most players to solo? What's the deal there? (or is there more info in the PTS sub-forum)

I am going to explain it as quickly as I can, but really this requires a different thread.

Previously in eso, world events were things that happened “in the overland world” you would see a dragon, a harrowstorm, a vent, etc. there you could stop and fight them along with other people on the server at the same time. And receive an award, regardless of if you were on a daily quest or not.

There was one semi alternate version with portals in Blackwood, but those still had a communal aspect to them as they acted as a public dungeon of sorts.

Ok?
Now throw all of that previous concept away. “World events” act very differently in Necrom.

There are these roaming world bosses, as far as I can tell they only drop a few minimal gold coins (I tested this on the pts in the first week, this could have been changed or a bug). So joining in and killing them is not at all rewarding. And for the common player these world bosses are far from soloable.
They are similar in concept, but hit harder than the roaming world bosses in Deadlands and Galen, with additional mechanics. (They are fairly common though.)

But the world event daily quest requires you to kill five of them to claim “ichors”, which only drop if you have the daily.

This is step one.

Step two, the five ichors allows you to open a portal to what is effectively a four person dungeon.

This is not a public dungeon.

But a closed instance space for up to four players. And the rest plays out as if it was, in fact, a dungeon (with some alternative wings in there as well).

Now, all party members need five ichors and ichors only drop if you are on the quest. So just asking for help in guild chat requires you to share the quest and kill world bosses until everyone has the same amount. (Apparently. [For obvious reasons there were not many people testing this on the pts.]) A stranger passing by is of no help, unless they too are in a similar spot on their own daily quest. (And then you have to group with them and all the complications grouping entails.)

The “dungeon” difficulty falls somewhere between normal and vet difficulty so a common player is not soloing this second part.

And there is no random queue function for this, so you have to find and join a group on your own.

Remember all of this is a single “daily world event” quest.

So “world events” an event that happens in the open world are gone, replaced by what is effectively an old school Craglorn style instanced daily. (With limited rewards.)
What’s more if you are a ToT player you have to do these to complete the new deck.

Official feed back post here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7866944#Comment_7866944

My own thread about it here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631700/bastion-nymic-daily-who-is-the-intended-audience-for-this/p1

Well, I hope for anyone that *does* do it, the reward is worth it! It sounds like lot of work for a daily quest, even with players grouping to do part/all of it.

And all of this and they target nerf mid and low end dps. (See! I brought this back around to the topic!)

Zastrix · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

And 2 bar light attack weaving is objectively stronger.

Not necessarily? Light attacks do add damage, yeah but you need to hit them. If you miss a few light attacks due to distance or desync or the game just ignoring your light attacks until you reset it by bashing (gotta love this on boss fights where I need bow proc for healing) you loose a lot of damage, you lose relequen, zaan, bow procs if you're a nightblade. You also have to worry about sustaining other gears so maybe you can't use skills at some points as you have to save stamina to rolldodge an incoming mechanic. Also with the new mythic coming out you don't need to weave even.

Zastrix · May 2023

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

That being said I also haven't had a single negative interaction running this build as you said you did and I'm running all sorts of groups from pre-made guild groups to outright random PUGs in both normal and veteran dungeons and trials which leads me to believe any negative interactions had were "one offs" or based on other factors outside of the build. I've been testing for a week straight too so I didn't queue for a only single dungeon and say I'm done. The fact that this was vRG is also notable as vAS is the meta trial for HA builds.

The only real time I've had an issue with an oakensorc is with vCA HM 3DD run (stambalde + 2x Oakensorcs) where they had so much cleave they burned the boss while attacking griffons. I had to swap 4 of my skills into selfish heals and 1 skills into the undaunted taunt so 'offtank' the griffons to the side and problem solved!

But it's true that currently HA builds have too much passives, damage output and resistances when compared to the amount of effort which needs to be put in. In vMoS trifecta tries yesterday, the 2 oakensorc DD which were with me didn't have to block the lurcher AOE which oneshots everyone (pre oakensoul)!

NiteAdder · May 2023

So me having a disability and not being able to weave, Im punished for using a HA build.

ZOS_Volpe · May 2023

Greetings,

We have recently removed some baiting comments as well as some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread.

Thank you for your understanding.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

I understand you have disability but it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you and we both get the same achievement for it.

Always the same excuse. Always;
"But it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you, and we both get the same achievement for it."
It's not fair that HA players get that achievement by just playing the game, but if they buy it, it is. Funny.

If what you are saying was legitimate, you would be asking to end the ride service. However, no one is asking for that because no one cares about the achievements of others.
All the players who are asking for and approving the nerf are doing it only for their own profit and self pride.

After all, ESO is not just a virtual game, but rather, it involves real-life actions. Those who have money will always be treated better than those who don't.

Not to mention many of us CAN weave.
Some people it’s uncomfortable / painful to do.
Not to mention some are flat out tired of that play style (which doesn’t fit the series in my opinion and from a animation point of
View looks awful ).

I have no major achievements because I don’t care.
I just don’t want my main solo characters dps messed with I enjoy being able to tackle every world boss (for the most part ) and take this character as a dps in dlc dungeons for more story / lore (like the prequel to this recent chapter ) I wouldn’t have been able to on my prior 2 bar build that hit between 15-20k (mostly around 16 ) due to me not being able to be consistent with my hands.

Some of us just want to enjoy the game.. it feels like people have ego problems. Too much worried about what others do.

As I learned from being in martial arts for 15 years it’s about competing with your self not others. And I’m a solo player I’m here to improve how my build works for me so I can enjoy the game. I’m not here to join end game hardcore players with this character.

so it just seems like unnecessary hate. It’s like in dark souls or elden ring there are builds that make a cake walk of a boss or in PvP and no one seems to care or cry for nerfs in that game. And coop/ PvP is a big part of it. And some items / set up’s are more overpowered and god like than anything in this game. Instead they turn it into a meme and laugh at about it.

Edited for spelling / grammar

Tradewind · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

I understand you have disability but it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you and we both get the same achievement for it.

Always the same excuse. Always;
"But it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you, and we both get the same achievement for it."
It's not fair that HA players get that achievement by just playing the game, but if they buy it, it is. Funny.

If what you are saying was legitimate, you would be asking to end the ride service. However, no one is asking for that because no one cares about the achievements of others.
All the players who are asking for and approving the nerf are doing it only for their own profit and self pride.

After all, ESO is not just a virtual game, but rather, it involves real-life actions. Those who have money will always be treated better than those who don't.

Not to mention many of us CAN weave.
Some people it’s uncomfortable / painful to do.
Not to mention some are flat out tired of that play style (which doesn’t fit the series in my opinion and from a animation point of
View looks awful ).

I have no major achievements because I don’t care.
I just don’t want my main solo characters dps messed with I enjoy being able to tackle every world boss (for the most part ) and take this character as a dps in dlc dungeons for more story / lore (like the prequel to this recent chapter ) I wouldn’t have been able to on my prior 2 bar build that hit between 15-20k (mostly around 16 ) due to me not being able to be consistent with my hands.

Some of us just want to enjoy the game.. it feels like people have ego problems. Too much worried about what others do.

As I learned from being in martial arts for 15 years it’s about competing with your self not others. And I’m a solo player I’m here to improve how my build works for me so I can enjoy the game. I’m not here to join end game hardcore players with this character.

so it just seems like unnecessary hate. It’s like in dark souls or elden ring there are builds that make a cake walk of a boss or in PvP and no one seems to care or cry for nerfs in that game. And coop/ PvP is a big part of it. And some items / set up’s are more overpowered and god like than anything in this game. Instead they turn it into a meme and laugh at about it.

Edited for spelling / grammar

As I mentioned before, there are many players who ask for HA to be nerfed, but they don't actually care about the game. Requesting nerfs for certain builds is not beneficial to anyone because it can result in fewer players willing to help complete hardest content.

If these players truly cared about achievements and the hard work required to master rotations, they would be disgusted by players who sell rides.
However, this is not the case. They don't want HA users to be able to carry such achievements, but they don't mind if a level 50 player with 30 CP pays for it. Therefore, the real issue here is not about achievements, it's about self-pride, and that's why they don't want the shared DPS function to be disabled. They need to feel proud and say, "I did more DPS than you, so I'm better than you."

They will never say, "We all did it." Only PUGs and new players say this when they finish a trial, and they are 100% genuine because they know that all players helped finish the content.
For many others, all they see is, "Yeah, right, we carried you," and they will avoid playing with that player again because of low DPS.

There are many other reasons for this behavior, but the main reason, in my opinion, is self-pride and profit. How can this be good for the game?

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

I understand you have disability but it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you and we both get the same achievement for it.

Always the same excuse. Always;
"But it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you, and we both get the same achievement for it."
It's not fair that HA players get that achievement by just playing the game, but if they buy it, it is. Funny.

If what you are saying was legitimate, you would be asking to end the ride service. However, no one is asking for that because no one cares about the achievements of others.
All the players who are asking for and approving the nerf are doing it only for their own profit and self pride.

After all, ESO is not just a virtual game, but rather, it involves real-life actions. Those who have money will always be treated better than those who don't.

Not to mention many of us CAN weave.
Some people it’s uncomfortable / painful to do.
Not to mention some are flat out tired of that play style (which doesn’t fit the series in my opinion and from a animation point of
View looks awful ).

I have no major achievements because I don’t care.
I just don’t want my main solo characters dps messed with I enjoy being able to tackle every world boss (for the most part ) and take this character as a dps in dlc dungeons for more story / lore (like the prequel to this recent chapter ) I wouldn’t have been able to on my prior 2 bar build that hit between 15-20k (mostly around 16 ) due to me not being able to be consistent with my hands.

Some of us just want to enjoy the game.. it feels like people have ego problems. Too much worried about what others do.

As I learned from being in martial arts for 15 years it’s about competing with your self not others. And I’m a solo player I’m here to improve how my build works for me so I can enjoy the game. I’m not here to join end game hardcore players with this character.

so it just seems like unnecessary hate. It’s like in dark souls or elden ring there are builds that make a cake walk of a boss or in PvP and no one seems to care or cry for nerfs in that game. And coop/ PvP is a big part of it. And some items / set up’s are more overpowered and god like than anything in this game. Instead they turn it into a meme and laugh at about it.

Edited for spelling / grammar

As I mentioned before, there are many players who ask for HA to be nerfed, but they don't actually care about the game. Requesting nerfs for certain builds is not beneficial to anyone because it can result in fewer players willing to help complete hardest content.

If these players truly cared about achievements and the hard work required to master rotations, they would be disgusted by players who sell rides.
However, this is not the case. They don't want HA users to be able to carry such achievements, but they don't mind if a level 50 player with 30 CP pays for it. Therefore, the real issue here is not about achievements, it's about self-pride, and that's why they don't want the shared DPS function to be disabled. They need to feel proud and say, "I did more DPS than you, so I'm better than you."

They will never say, "We all did it." Only PUGs and new players say this when they finish a trial, and they are 100% genuine because they know that all players helped finish the content.
For many others, all they see is, "Yeah, right, we carried you," and they will avoid playing with that player again because of low DPS.

There are many other reasons for this behavior, but the main reason, in my opinion, is self-pride and profit. How can this be good for the game?

I 100 % agree and brought this up many times and there was always some excuse made for it.

It’s ok to buy a free ride but when you do it your self with a different build it’s shunned because a small minority of players can get High dps with it, even tho that same minority can get a bigger dps with a “standard” la 2 bar build.

I’ve done about 20 pugs since my last post on this topic all have been really cool
To one another and thanked me for my dps and help as a HA player. So it definitely seems more of an end gamer pride issue.

Edited for typo

Tradewind · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I 100 % agree and brought this up many times and there was always some excuse made for it.

It’s ok to buy a free ride but when you do it your self with a different build it’s shunned because a small minority of players can get High dps with it, even tho that same minority can get a bigger dps with a “standard” la 2 bar build.

Okay, but how can people say;
"It's all okay to sell rides because we deserve that"
and then say;
"You shouldn't have that achievement because you can't be as good as us."
This doesn't make any sense to me.

And reading all of this on the forum and patch notes from PTS is completely demotivating. It feels like Zenimax doesn't care, even when they try to show that they do.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I 100 % agree and brought this up many times and there was always some excuse made for it.

It’s ok to buy a free ride but when you do it your self with a different build it’s shunned because a small minority of players can get High dps with it, even tho that same minority can get a bigger dps with a “standard” la 2 bar build.

Okay, but how can people say;
"It's all okay to sell rides because we deserve that"
and then say;
"You shouldn't have that achievement because you can't be as good as us."
This doesn't make any sense to me.

And reading all of this on the forum and patch notes from PTS is completely demotivating. It feels like Zenimax doesn't care, even when they try to show that they do.

I do agree once again it seems hypocritical for the same nerf callers to support free rides but shun a heavy attack build. Again many of us practice in front of a dummy and can weave, there is just physical disabilities that make consistent weaving not possible. HA build compensates for this and evens it up and Ups my numbers from 20 k max to 32k max either way I need to take my hand off the mouse in either play style but the added buffs and less clicking allow me to hit better dps with HA attack. When I play I’m still doing all the mechanics, and I do know how to weave. I just can’t be consistent.

People have found a way to be a decent dps and help a team, which I think is great for the game.

Selling rides goes against the end game goals not someone using a different build to help their team achieve a goal.

Edited yet again to fix more typos

sarahthes · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

I understand you have disability but it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you and we both get the same achievement for it.

Always the same excuse. Always;
"But it doesn't justify the fact that I have to work 10 times harder than you, and we both get the same achievement for it."
It's not fair that HA players get that achievement by just playing the game, but if they buy it, it is. Funny.

If what you are saying was legitimate, you would be asking to end the ride service. However, no one is asking for that because no one cares about the achievements of others.
All the players who are asking for and approving the nerf are doing it only for their own profit and self pride.

After all, ESO is not just a virtual game, but rather, it involves real-life actions. Those who have money will always be treated better than those who don't.

Not to mention many of us CAN weave.
Some people it’s uncomfortable / painful to do.
Not to mention some are flat out tired of that play style (which doesn’t fit the series in my opinion and from a animation point of
View looks awful ).

I have no major achievements because I don’t care.
I just don’t want my main solo characters dps messed with I enjoy being able to tackle every world boss (for the most part ) and take this character as a dps in dlc dungeons for more story / lore (like the prequel to this recent chapter ) I wouldn’t have been able to on my prior 2 bar build that hit between 15-20k (mostly around 16 ) due to me not being able to be consistent with my hands.

Some of us just want to enjoy the game.. it feels like people have ego problems. Too much worried about what others do.

As I learned from being in martial arts for 15 years it’s about competing with your self not others. And I’m a solo player I’m here to improve how my build works for me so I can enjoy the game. I’m not here to join end game hardcore players with this character.

so it just seems like unnecessary hate. It’s like in dark souls or elden ring there are builds that make a cake walk of a boss or in PvP and no one seems to care or cry for nerfs in that game. And coop/ PvP is a big part of it. And some items / set up’s are more overpowered and god like than anything in this game. Instead they turn it into a meme and laugh at about it.

Edited for spelling / grammar

As I mentioned before, there are many players who ask for HA to be nerfed, but they don't actually care about the game. Requesting nerfs for certain builds is not beneficial to anyone because it can result in fewer players willing to help complete hardest content.

If these players truly cared about achievements and the hard work required to master rotations, they would be disgusted by players who sell rides.
However, this is not the case. They don't want HA users to be able to carry such achievements, but they don't mind if a level 50 player with 30 CP pays for it. Therefore, the real issue here is not about achievements, it's about self-pride, and that's why they don't want the shared DPS function to be disabled. They need to feel proud and say, "I did more DPS than you, so I'm better than you."

They will never say, "We all did it." Only PUGs and new players say this when they finish a trial, and they are 100% genuine because they know that all players helped finish the content.
For many others, all they see is, "Yeah, right, we carried you," and they will avoid playing with that player again because of low DPS.

There are many other reasons for this behavior, but the main reason, in my opinion, is self-pride and profit. How can this be good for the game?

I disagree fundamentally with most trifecta carries due to the requirement to violate TOS for some of them.

If people want to pay much gold for gear or whatever though, who cares. Most carried are just for gear or skins and most of those aren't associated with particularly difficult content.

In fact, I know a guy who buys carries all the time for gear. He has all trifectas. He just wants to get all the gear he needs in 1-2 runs instead of 20.

Galeriano · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I 100 % agree and brought this up many times and there was always some excuse made for it.

It’s ok to buy a free ride but when you do it your self with a different build it’s shunned because a small minority of players can get High dps with it, even tho that same minority can get a bigger dps with a “standard” la 2 bar build.

Okay, but how can people say;
"It's all okay to sell rides because we deserve that"
and then say;
"You shouldn't have that achievement because you can't be as good as us."
This doesn't make any sense to me.

And reading all of this on the forum and patch notes from PTS is completely demotivating. It feels like Zenimax doesn't care, even when they try to show that they do.

I really don't know why are even carry runs brought as any form of argument here. So because some people are selling carries than developer cannot balance game anymore and everyone deserves an easy mode setup? Because some people are being carried by other players now developer needs to create a setup that will carry everyone?

And the order of magniture of these two things is not even comparable. Possibly more people have completed vAS HM alone thanks to oakensoul than the overall amount of carry runs sold for all veteran content. Like seriously what are we even discussing here.

Tradewind · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

I really don't know why are even carry runs brought as any form of argument here. So because some people are selling carries than developer cannot balance game anymore and everyone deserves an easy mode setup? Because some people are being carried by other players now developer needs to create a setup that will carry everyone?

And the order of magniture of these two things is not even comparable. Possibly more people have completed vAS HM alone thanks to oakensoul than the overall amount of carry runs sold for all veteran content. Like seriously what are we even discussing here.

If you have read all the threads and discussions about Nerfing HA, you'll notice that the excuse always the same: "It's not fair that HA players have same achievements as those who spent years in the master rotation." This is why the argument for carry runs needs to be brought forward.

Once again, people can't say: "It's all okay to sell rides because we deserve that", and say after: "You shouldn't have that achievement because you can't be as good as us."

[Snip]

[Edited for Bait]

Galeriano · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

I really don't know why are even carry runs brought as any form of argument here. So because some people are selling carries than developer cannot balance game anymore and everyone deserves an easy mode setup? Because some people are being carried by other players now developer needs to create a setup that will carry everyone?

And the order of magniture of these two things is not even comparable. Possibly more people have completed vAS HM alone thanks to oakensoul than the overall amount of carry runs sold for all veteran content. Like seriously what are we even discussing here.

If you have read all the threads and discussions about Nerfing HA, you'll notice that the excuse always the same: "It's not fair that HA players have same achievements as those who spent years in the master rotation." This is why the argument for carry runs needs to be brought forward.

Once again, people can't say: "It's all okay to sell rides because we deserve that", and say after: "You shouldn't have that achievement because you can't be as good as us."

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

Tradewind · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

[Edited for conspiracy theories/misinformation]

ZOS_Volpe · May 2023

Hi there,

There have been a few more bashing comments and back and forth that had to be removed from this discussion. It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Galeriano · May 2023

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

You still didn't answer my question.

True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.

All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.

DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.

Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.

I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

[Edited quote]

BlueRaven · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

You still didn't answer my question.

True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.

All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.

DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.

Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.

I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

[Edited quote]

Balancing is arbitrary.

Should HASorc get a nerf, buff, stay the same?
It was lol depends on perspective.
Perhaps HASorcs are perfectly balanced for the effort they take.
Maybe light attack weaving produces too much dps for effort they take.

In the end it doesn’t matter because the two styles are not competing against each other.

HASorcs are at best mid range dps.

LA weaving can well eclipse it with that combat style.

You might as well be saying a family sedan has too high a top speed for the amount of effort they take to drive, when compared to a nascar vehicle.
So you want to make the lives of everyone who drives family cars a bit more miserable? Is that the aim here?

In the end, all this nerf does is increase the delta between low end (20k dps players are using builds like this too!) and high end players. And last time zos said that it was too wide a gap they nerfed high end dps. (Remember that? Wasn’t that fun times?)

And we all want to team up with lower dps players in dungeon finder, that is always welcome. Right?

And less people capable of running vet content would definitely encourage zos to make more of it.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

You still didn't answer my question.

True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.

All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.

DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.

Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.

I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

[Edited quote]

Balancing is arbitrary.

Should HASorc get a nerf, buff, stay the same?
It was lol depends on perspective.
Perhaps HASorcs are perfectly balanced for the effort they take.
Maybe light attack weaving produces too much dps for effort they take.

In the end it doesn’t matter because the two styles are not competing against each other.

HASorcs are at best mid range dps.

LA weaving can well eclipse it with that combat style.

You might as well be saying a family sedan has too high a top speed for the amount of effort they take to drive, when compared to a nascar vehicle.
So you want to make the lives of everyone who drives family cars a bit more miserable? Is that the aim here?

In the end, all this nerf does is increase the delta between low end (20k dps players are using builds like this too!) and high end players. And last time zos said that it was too wide a gap they nerfed high end dps. (Remember that? Wasn’t that fun times?)

And we all want to team up with lower dps players in dungeon finder, that is always welcome. Right?

And less people capable of running vet content would definitely encourage zos to make more of it.

That’s exactly the thing this hinders low and mid level dps. I went from 15-20k dps with my 2
Bar set up. I could barely average over 15-16k usually. I was sucking wind. The HA build allowed me to hit 25k for the first time and now 33k as of today is the highest I’ve hit on a 3mil dummy. While not earth shattering it’s viable and I can solo world bosses and do most dlc and normal dungeons and vet as well.

I’m not here to compete against the hardcore players in here to at least experience more than sucking wind running around in over land only.

Edited: for typos

Galeriano · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

You still didn't answer my question.

True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.

All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.

DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.

Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.

I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

[Edited quote]

Balancing is arbitrary.

Should HASorc get a nerf, buff, stay the same?
It was lol depends on perspective.
Perhaps HASorcs are perfectly balanced for the effort they take.
Maybe light attack weaving produces too much dps for effort they take.

In the end it doesn’t matter because the two styles are not competing against each other.

HASorcs are at best mid range dps.

LA weaving can well eclipse it with that combat style.

You might as well be saying a family sedan has too high a top speed for the amount of effort they take to drive, when compared to a nascar vehicle.
So you want to make the lives of everyone who drives family cars a bit more miserable? Is that the aim here?

In the end, all this nerf does is increase the delta between low end (20k dps players are using builds like this too!) and high end players. And last time zos said that it was too wide a gap they nerfed high end dps. (Remember that? Wasn’t that fun times?)

And we all want to team up with lower dps players in dungeon finder, that is always welcome. Right?

And less people capable of running vet content would definitely encourage zos to make more of it.

No it's not arbitrary. Tnings do not exist in a vacuum.

Yes these two setups are cometing against each other. Fact that it's not happening in top end raids doesn't mean it's not happening at all. With the introduction of one bar HA setups the usefulness of LA setups dropped down drastically.

I wouldn't say HA sorcs are the best mid game setup. One bar HA setups in general are the best option for low, mid and some part of end game with sorc and warden being slightly above rest of the classes.

Fact that LA weaving can eclipse them doesn't mean it will for majority of players. It can only do this if someone is at very high levels of prefficiency way higher than it's needed for HA weaving.

Do You know any family sedan owners who would be competing in nascar races with their sedan? Because this is what is currently happening with HA setups. It's actually even funnier than that. Nascar car owners are actually using their sedan cars to take part in nascar races because sedans feel more comfortable while still being able to qualify.
I don't want anything I am just saying why current situation when sedan car is becoming a default option for many races is not the best for overall state of racing industry.

In the end all it does is just putting the max DPS possible to achieve by HA setup at more balanced place when we take under consideration other benefits that HA setups have and LA setups don't. Every setup wheter it's used in low, mid or end game is not free from a balance decisions.

BlueRaven · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

You still didn't answer my question.

True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.

All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.

DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.

Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.

I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

[Edited quote]

Balancing is arbitrary.

Should HASorc get a nerf, buff, stay the same?
It was lol depends on perspective.
Perhaps HASorcs are perfectly balanced for the effort they take.
Maybe light attack weaving produces too much dps for effort they take.

In the end it doesn’t matter because the two styles are not competing against each other.

HASorcs are at best mid range dps.

LA weaving can well eclipse it with that combat style.

You might as well be saying a family sedan has too high a top speed for the amount of effort they take to drive, when compared to a nascar vehicle.
So you want to make the lives of everyone who drives family cars a bit more miserable? Is that the aim here?

In the end, all this nerf does is increase the delta between low end (20k dps players are using builds like this too!) and high end players. And last time zos said that it was too wide a gap they nerfed high end dps. (Remember that? Wasn’t that fun times?)

And we all want to team up with lower dps players in dungeon finder, that is always welcome. Right?

And less people capable of running vet content would definitely encourage zos to make more of it.

No it's not arbitrary. Tnings do not exist in a vacuum.

Yes these two setups are cometing against each other. Fact that it's not happening in top end raids doesn't mean it's not happening at all. With the introduction of one bar HA setups the usefulness of LA setups dropped down drastically.

I wouldn't say HA sorcs are the best mid game setup. One bar HA setups in general are the best option for low, mid and some part of end game with sorc and warden being slightly above rest of the classes.

Fact that LA weaving can eclipse them doesn't mean it will for majority of players. It can only do this if someone is at very high levels of prefficiency way higher than it's needed for HA weaving.

Do You know any family sedan owners who would be competing in nascar races with their sedan? Because this is what is currently happening with HA setups. It's actually even funnier than that. Nascar car owners are actually using their sedan cars to take part in nascar races because sedans feel more comfortable while still being able to qualify.
I don't want anything I am just saying why current situation when sedan car is becoming a default option for many races is not the best for overall state of racing industry.

In the end all it does is just putting the max DPS possible to achieve by HA setup at more balanced place when we take under consideration other benefits that HA setups have and LA setups don't. Every setup wheter it's used in low, mid or end game is not free from a balance decisions.

No things don’t exist in a vacuum.

The vast majority of players are not switching over to two bar la weave combat with this nerf.

Those people pumping out lower dps? You have to deal with them.

Those threads about “fake dps” on these forums? That will be exacerbated.

Zos will see less engagement in vet content. Well great, hopefully they will put more effort into where the majority are spending their time. “Easy” overland content. I personally would welcome it and that is not sarcasm. (Just fyi I have completed vMoL on a stam bow non sorc.)

All because some people feel other people that they know nothing about are not putting the work in?

These “family sedan” drivers are not competing against the nascar crowd, they honestly don’t want to. And they don’t care about how fast nascars can go either.
They just want to enjoy the drive. Feel good about themselves after a long day.

And that is being lessened because someone else feels they don’t deserve it?

If ha is honestly competing against la weave players, those la weavers need to step up their game or switch over to a ha setup. It’s not the ha players fault that la weavers can’t pull off those numbers that they should be doing.

So a person who is good at ha is competing against someone who is bad at la. Well obviously it’s the ha player who is at fault. Maybe just ask the ha player to slow down their dps?

Or maybe we can punish players who are not even doing vet content. Yeah let’s target those players.

Galeriano · May 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

You still didn't answer my question.

True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.

All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.

DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.

Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.

I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

[Edited quote]

Balancing is arbitrary.

Should HASorc get a nerf, buff, stay the same?
It was lol depends on perspective.
Perhaps HASorcs are perfectly balanced for the effort they take.
Maybe light attack weaving produces too much dps for effort they take.

In the end it doesn’t matter because the two styles are not competing against each other.

HASorcs are at best mid range dps.

LA weaving can well eclipse it with that combat style.

You might as well be saying a family sedan has too high a top speed for the amount of effort they take to drive, when compared to a nascar vehicle.
So you want to make the lives of everyone who drives family cars a bit more miserable? Is that the aim here?

In the end, all this nerf does is increase the delta between low end (20k dps players are using builds like this too!) and high end players. And last time zos said that it was too wide a gap they nerfed high end dps. (Remember that? Wasn’t that fun times?)

And we all want to team up with lower dps players in dungeon finder, that is always welcome. Right?

And less people capable of running vet content would definitely encourage zos to make more of it.

No it's not arbitrary. Tnings do not exist in a vacuum.

Yes these two setups are cometing against each other. Fact that it's not happening in top end raids doesn't mean it's not happening at all. With the introduction of one bar HA setups the usefulness of LA setups dropped down drastically.

I wouldn't say HA sorcs are the best mid game setup. One bar HA setups in general are the best option for low, mid and some part of end game with sorc and warden being slightly above rest of the classes.

Fact that LA weaving can eclipse them doesn't mean it will for majority of players. It can only do this if someone is at very high levels of prefficiency way higher than it's needed for HA weaving.

Do You know any family sedan owners who would be competing in nascar races with their sedan? Because this is what is currently happening with HA setups. It's actually even funnier than that. Nascar car owners are actually using their sedan cars to take part in nascar races because sedans feel more comfortable while still being able to qualify.
I don't want anything I am just saying why current situation when sedan car is becoming a default option for many races is not the best for overall state of racing industry.

In the end all it does is just putting the max DPS possible to achieve by HA setup at more balanced place when we take under consideration other benefits that HA setups have and LA setups don't. Every setup wheter it's used in low, mid or end game is not free from a balance decisions.

No things don’t exist in a vacuum.

The vast majority of players are not switching over to two bar la weave combat with this nerf.

Those people pumping out lower dps? You have to deal with them.

Those threads about “fake dps” on these forums? That will be exacerbated.

Zos will see less engagement in vet content. Well great, hopefully they will put more effort into where the majority are spending their time. “Easy” overland content. I personally would welcome it and that is not sarcasm. (Just fyi I have completed vMoL on a stam bow non sorc.)

All because some people feel other people that they know nothing about are not putting the work in?

These “family sedan” drivers are not competing against the nascar crowd, they honestly don’t want to. And they don’t care about how fast nascars can go either.
They just want to enjoy the drive. Feel good about themselves after a long day.

And that is being lessened because someone else feels they don’t deserve it?

If ha is honestly competing against la weave players, those la weavers need to step up their game or switch over to a ha setup. It’s not the ha players fault that la weavers can’t pull off those numbers that they should be doing.

So a person who is good at ha is competing against someone who is bad at la. Well obviously it’s the ha player who is at fault. Maybe just ask the ha player to slow down their dps?

Or maybe we can punish players who are not even doing vet content. Yeah let’s target those players.

Yes the vast majority of HA users despite many complaints about the nerf will still stick to one bar HA setup because it will still offer way more DPS than it's needed to clear majority of content in the game even for someone who is not a great player.

Those people pulling lowest DPS will be still pulling way more than they were before one bar HA era. I don't get what do You mean that I will have to deal with them. Doing stuff with less experienced players isn't something new that will be introduced after HA setup nerf. You mean that I will have to deal with the fact they will be doing a bit less DPS? I think I will manage that just fine if that's Your concern.

I don;t know what threads You are talking about. Most threads about fake roles are usually talking about tanks and healers, "fake DPS" threads were and still are a rarity usually brought up when other fake roles are being discussed.

I really don't think that enganement in content will drop drastically although some drop may occur. People will still be able to clear every vet content in the game and it seems like it was ZoS's goal to make content above that slightly less easy to participate in.

I really don't think final decision was made because of what "some people feel". If ZoS would always make decision based on that we would be playing completly different game now. It's really not a big suprise that developers not only here but in general don't want for harder content to be accesible too easily.

Well the problem is at the end of the day that sedan driver still ends up with his sedan being ready for nascar wheter he wants it or not. They can still enjoy the drive and feel good about themselves when their tires will be changed from racing ones to regular ones.

Once again it have really nothing to do with what someone else is feeling.

Saying LA players to just step up is really disingenuous. Majority of them will never reach top end results. This is why many of them switched to HA setups. But some people simply don't like to play this way and despite being quite decent at LA weaving they are still falling behind their colleagues with similar or sometimes even lower skill level who have swicthed to HA playstyle. It's not LA players fault that HA players recived a setup that covers everything with way less effort from the player. What do You mean by "numbers they should be doing"? You think every LA player should be doing 120k DPS by default?

Being good at HA weaving requires way less skill and practice than being average at LA weaving. People who are average at HA weaving can now compete with people who are above the average at light attack weaving. LA weaving have way bigger learning curve. On a HA setup when properly geared You are reaching 80-90% of this setup's max DPS with a little to none practice on a LA setup You need to work long and hard to get to this treshold.

People who are not doing vet content will be the least "punished". DPS requirement in overland, quests and normal modes is way below of what is possible to achieve by default.

Twig_Garlicshine · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it's not. That "excuse" is used by a minority of people who are against HA playstyle but of course it's repeated often by people who are defending them to discredit all people who have anything negative to say about HA setups.
Main argument is that HA setups offer simply too much for too little which makes them dominant in low. medium and some parts of end game. That's it, carry runs have nothing to do with it

And still there is no justification to bring up carry runs as any reasonable counterargument. Your argumentation for that makes no sense. Carry runs sound just like another escape goat arguemnt to defend HA setups.

Once again I will ask. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

OFC, they should balance all classes and races equally. However, HA builds should have less DPS than LA builds.

- To balance the game, all classes should have an equal chance to be the best DPS, and not just allow DKs to remain the best.
- Balancing the game also means allowing LA builds to have higher DPS than HA builds. But if we compare a skilled HA player to someone with a poor rotation in a two-bar setup, that's not balance.
- True balance means comparing a skilled HA player to a skilled two-bar player and LA will have much more DPS.

[Snip]

You still didn't answer my question.

True balance where every class and race is equall doesn't exist and is impossible to achieve.

All classes cannot have the same DPS because DPS varies in different situations and You cannot make all classes excatly the same in every scenario. DK is the best example. It's not the best single target DD it's just a class that can keep the best ratio of single target to AoE DPS.

DPS is not the only thing that matters in balancing DD role. How You are achieving that DPS also matters.

Even if some pople would behave like You described I don't see what does it really change. How is opinion of some carry runners changing anything? Selling runs have really nothing to do with nerf to HA unless You want to tell me that those carry runners have bribed ZoS with their ingame gold.

I will ask once again. Because carry runs exist should developer stop balancing the game?

[Edited quote]

Balancing is arbitrary.

Should HASorc get a nerf, buff, stay the same?
It was lol depends on perspective.
Perhaps HASorcs are perfectly balanced for the effort they take.
Maybe light attack weaving produces too much dps for effort they take.

In the end it doesn’t matter because the two styles are not competing against each other.

HASorcs are at best mid range dps.

LA weaving can well eclipse it with that combat style.

You might as well be saying a family sedan has too high a top speed for the amount of effort they take to drive, when compared to a nascar vehicle.
So you want to make the lives of everyone who drives family cars a bit more miserable? Is that the aim here?

In the end, all this nerf does is increase the delta between low end (20k dps players are using builds like this too!) and high end players. And last time zos said that it was too wide a gap they nerfed high end dps. (Remember that? Wasn’t that fun times?)

And we all want to team up with lower dps players in dungeon finder, that is always welcome. Right?

And less people capable of running vet content would definitely encourage zos to make more of it.

No it's not arbitrary. Tnings do not exist in a vacuum.

Yes these two setups are cometing against each other. Fact that it's not happening in top end raids doesn't mean it's not happening at all. With the introduction of one bar HA setups the usefulness of LA setups dropped down drastically.

I wouldn't say HA sorcs are the best mid game setup. One bar HA setups in general are the best option for low, mid and some part of end game with sorc and warden being slightly above rest of the classes.

Fact that LA weaving can eclipse them doesn't mean it will for majority of players. It can only do this if someone is at very high levels of prefficiency way higher than it's needed for HA weaving.

Do You know any family sedan owners who would be competing in nascar races with their sedan? Because this is what is currently happening with HA setups. It's actually even funnier than that. Nascar car owners are actually using their sedan cars to take part in nascar races because sedans feel more comfortable while still being able to qualify.
I don't want anything I am just saying why current situation when sedan car is becoming a default option for many races is not the best for overall state of racing industry.

In the end all it does is just putting the max DPS possible to achieve by HA setup at more balanced place when we take under consideration other benefits that HA setups have and LA setups don't. Every setup wheter it's used in low, mid or end game is not free from a balance decisions.

No things don’t exist in a vacuum.

The vast majority of players are not switching over to two bar la weave combat with this nerf.

Those people pumping out lower dps? You have to deal with them.

Those threads about “fake dps” on these forums? That will be exacerbated.

Zos will see less engagement in vet content. Well great, hopefully they will put more effort into where the majority are spending their time. “Easy” overland content. I personally would welcome it and that is not sarcasm. (Just fyi I have completed vMoL on a stam bow non sorc.)

All because some people feel other people that they know nothing about are not putting the work in?

These “family sedan” drivers are not competing against the nascar crowd, they honestly don’t want to. And they don’t care about how fast nascars can go either.
They just want to enjoy the drive. Feel good about themselves after a long day.

And that is being lessened because someone else feels they don’t deserve it?

If ha is honestly competing against la weave players, those la weavers need to step up their game or switch over to a ha setup. It’s not the ha players fault that la weavers can’t pull off those numbers that they should be doing.

So a person who is good at ha is competing against someone who is bad at la. Well obviously it’s the ha player who is at fault. Maybe just ask the ha player to slow down their dps?

Or maybe we can punish players who are not even doing vet content. Yeah let’s target those players.

really disingenuous.

Being good at HA weaving requires way less skill and practice than being average at LA weaving. People who are average at HA weaving can now compete with people who are above the average at light attack weaving. LA weaving have way bigger learning curve. On a HA setup when properly geared You are reaching 80-90% of this setup's max DPS with a little to none practice on a LA setup You need to work long and hard to get to this threshold.

People who are not doing vet content will be the least "punished". DPS requirement in overland, quests and normal modes is way below of what is possible to achieve by default.

The only thing disingenuous in these threads is the continued insistence that:
2 finger typer A (LA) is more skilled and worked long and hard to get there, while
2 finger typer B (HA) is far less skilled and does nothing.

2 finger typer A is a glass cannon and totally reliant on tanks/healers to provide buffs, debuffs, even sustain, and survivability
2 finger typer B is less needy and brings the majority of their own buffs, sustain, and most survivability.

2 finger typer A have in fact gaslit an entire community into believing "LA dps work the hardest in game and did it all themselves.".
Reality = both are 2 finger typists.

There are in fact only 2 real skills required for end game raiding in any mmo.
Ability to get along with others, under pressure.
Situational awareness.

loveeso · May 2023

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc). Why an outlier? Because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets. Still, even this HA outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

Next post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7870041/#Comment_7870041

jaws343 · May 2023

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

jaws343 · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.