Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

tmbrinks

Every bit of content is completable on a HA build in U37 at some difficulty level, nearly all content at all levels.

Every bit of content will be completable on a HA build in U38 at some difficulty level, nearly all content at all levels.

wolfie1.0.

HappyDan wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.

Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.

This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.

Why are you

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.

Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.

This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.

Why are you trying to copy other MMO's? ESO has unique combat, that's the selling point the whole mantra. That's like asking why RX7 has Doritos engine? why don't they use simple corola engine? I mean they are both cars and they are both Japanese? It's just baffling to me how people take a unique combat mmo and try to make it like the bland combat mmo we see everywhere, like bruh.

To be fair, HA builds add diversity to ESO builds. Not saying that they should overperform, nor that they should be nerfed. But let's be honest here ZOSs attempts at simplifying combat are basically forcing players to play certian ways on their characters.

The discussion has evolved from mag vs stam. Now LA vs HA. Which at its core is how long you can hold a button down to how fast you can click said button.

isadoraisacat

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

HappyDan wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.

Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.

This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.

Why are you

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.

Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.

This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.

Why are you trying to copy other MMO's? ESO has unique combat, that's the selling point the whole mantra. That's like asking why RX7 has Doritos engine? why don't they use simple corola engine? I mean they are both cars and they are both Japanese? It's just baffling to me how people take a unique combat mmo and try to make it like the bland combat mmo we see everywhere, like bruh.

To be fair, HA builds add diversity to ESO builds. Not saying that they should overperform, nor that they should be nerfed. But let's be honest here ZOSs attempts at simplifying combat are basically forcing players to play certian ways on their characters.

The discussion has evolved from mag vs stam. Now LA vs HA. Which at its core is how long you can hold a button down to how fast you can click said button.

I think a lot of the problem too is many players never played an mmo before and are playing for the elder scrolls. So the combat is conflicting in that many players aren’t used to the combat. For mmo players it’s common to them. So it’s hard in a game where it’s divided between mmo vets and elder scrolls
Main series fans. There needs to be a happy Medium and I think HA is the closest we got to that medium while not perfect it was better than it was without it.

BlueRaven

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

There is a difference between the top end of players and the middle lower group having their dps lowered.

Having the top end players reaching super top numbers, when the vast majority is not creates balancing issues for content.

How do you make content that pleases everyone on a limited budget? Is creating hard content worth while when so few people can or will experience it?

Having top sky high numbers a bit closer to earth (so to speak), makes that harder content seen by more people.

And also (to give an extreme example) the people who are pulling 100k+, were complaining that overland is too easy. Well what if the top end dps was 30k (and everyone else was the current average 20-25k)? Would they be complaining about the easy overland content then? Wouldn't balancing and creating content for everyone be considerably easier?

Meanwhile....

Nerfing middle (and lower tier) groups affects the top end guilds aversely.

How?

As the guilds who are maybe one or two steps behind them in difficulty dwindles due to their dps being lowered, recruiting for the top end becomes more difficult as there are now less places to find good players.

Again...

HA builds that were maybe pulling 80k were not negatively affecting "people that can pull a fair amount over 100k", and now the people who "can't" will go down in dps. And the whole reason it is being nerfed is because some players feel that the lower dps players don't "deserve" the dps they were getting.

That is whole complaint.

Not about balancing content. Not because the high numbers were to taxing for the client. And not about completion issues.
It was because of a perceived grievance of "work" vs "reward" that upper tier players had against the lower tier players.

So top end players just hurt themselves as there will be less incentive for zos to make harder content AND the pool of support dps for the super star high end players will go down.

So in your example the people pulling 100k or more dps, will now have more work to make up for some of the people who can't, because some of the "can't" people will have their dps lowered.

Also since the "delta" between the average dps and upper end dps will widen, zos will have to nerf the upper tier again, to shrink that difference.

Ragnarok0130

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I've made many of the same points about those who cheered the nerfs to the end game in U35 suddenly not liking it when its applied to them once they're in the end game in another thread. The irony is that Oaknsorc/HA hasn't just become an alternative for players new to the end game to acclimate it's become the META in many scenarios of the end game even outside of vAS and we all know what happens to metas when ZoS notices...adjustments. I ran a PUG vRG on Friday and 100% of the DPS were HA Sorcs (I am an Oakensorc here testing someone's claim about being kicked from normal and veteran dungeons and trials - spoiler I've not been kicked once nor had even one negative interaction). The content seemed trivial compared to a normal comp run and I even got a new high score for vRG. It's apparent why ZoS is adjusting this type of build after running it for a week in group content.



edited for spelling

isadoraisacat

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I've made many of the same points about those who cheered the nerfs to the end game in U35 suddenly not liking it when its applied to them once they're in the end game in another thread. The irony is that Oaknsorc/HA hasn't just become an alternative for players new to the end game to acclimate it's become the META in many scenarios of the end game even outside of vAS and we all know what happens to metas when ZoS notices...adjustments. I ran a PUG vRG on Friday and 100% of the DPS were HA Sorcs (I am an Oakensorc here testing someone's claim about being kicked from normal and veteran dungeons and trials - spoiler I've not been kicked once nor had even one negative interaction). The content seemed trivial compared to a normal comp run and I even got a new high score for vRG. It's apparent why ZoS is adjusting this type of build after running it for a week in group content.



edited for spelling

I’ll have to upload some game footage. I recorded a few games just gotta get them hosted. Playing with my heavy attack build. I played with a lot of different builds who weren’t HA. And that was me who said I was booted from the vet Dungeon with my heavy attack build and was called “terrible” and “awful” it actually happened to me, with this build clearly my dps sucks it’s max 30k and testing in cmx I actually hit maybe 14k towards a boss in a real game. This build only can perform as good as the player. Skilled players can do good with it but they still put perform these builds with 2 bar.

All this is doing is taking from the low end.

You can take 10 % from a millionaire and it’s nothing to them. You take 10 % from a man below the poverty line and they are beyond sucking wind.

That is not balance to me.

BlueRaven

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

Galeriano

Gendizer wrote: »

I don't understand why ZOS, instead of making the game more comfortable for everyone or for a specific category of players, is ruining the game for a huge number of people with their changes.

Fact: on live, my maximum DPS on a HA build is 102k. On PTS, the same build only yields 87k DPS. If I change Storm Master to something else, the DPS becomes even lower. Overall, the final DPS has dropped by 15%. !!!!!!!! lost15% dps !!!!!!!!!!!

I am extremely unhappy with this position of the ZOS. In terms of DPS, HA builds are much weaker than top meta builds that have 120k DPS. I can understand why HA builds were nerfed in PvP, but I absolutely do not understand why ZOS is interfering with PvE.

That's pretty wierd results. I am getting similar DPS on live server as You and my DPS on PTS is around 93k.

isadoraisacat

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

I mean you don’t even need that because the majority of us playing these builds aren’t even doing the hard end game content.

The hardest for us is DLC dungeons on normal or vet non dlc. But after this nerf forget dlc dungeons I won’t be able to do those anymore at least not as a dps. So it’s just forcing me into changing my build up or making a new character and go as a healer.

tmbrinks

Any HA build is sufficient to do any normal content in the game... and pretty much all veteran content.

You can clear most normal content by just bringing in a properly equipped companion and healing them... doing zero damage yourself.

CP5

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

I mean you don’t even need that because the majority of us playing these builds aren’t even doing the hard end game content.

The hardest for us is DLC dungeons on normal or vet non dlc. But after this nerf forget dlc dungeons I won’t be able to do those anymore at least not as a dps. So it’s just forcing me into changing my build up or making a new character and go as a healer.

If you aren't doing vet trials, and even if you are, the nerf won't stop you from being able to do them. Again, this is one of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out (the nerf to empower) and changing gear sets is standard practice for every single player who does end game content (regarding the nerf to storm master). If you do anything less demanding than that content, it comes down to your mentality holding you back, not this nerf, dungeons depend a lot more on paying attention to things, and while high dps is needed from time to time, ultimates exist for a reason. Nothing is forcing you to play a healer, and if you want to participate in the highest tier of content, changing your build from patch to patch is the norm that everyone else deals with every patch, but for everything under that top tier of content, the damage loss won't kill you, this doom and gloom will.

isadoraisacat

tmbrinks wrote: »

Any HA build is sufficient to do any normal content in the game... and pretty much all veteran content.

You can clear most normal content by just bringing in a properly equipped companion and healing them... doing zero damage yourself.

That doesn’t make sense. If the companion is doing the damage than you aren’t using a heavy attack build.

I’m almost all golded out now save for one piece of armor that’s purple. Ember has a bunch of high level gear and she’s fully maxed out as a healer. For me.

You certainly can not solo vet content as the average player with this build. And if someone did that that’s like comparing the guy in Elden ring “letmesoloher” to the guy who just played the game for the first time.

You can’t compare experienced players to the average and causal player who this build is designed for. Most of us are happy hitting 30k
Dps and don’t want to loose that. As it allows
Us to play through dlc dungeons and learn more story in game. And experience other aspects of the game.

No one is trying to go head to head with the big dogs in not a skilled player and not trying to be in just a elder scrolls fan trying to enjoy an elder scrolls game.

tmbrinks

isadoraisacat wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Any HA build is sufficient to do any normal content in the game... and pretty much all veteran content.

You can clear most normal content by just bringing in a properly equipped companion and healing them... doing zero damage yourself.

That doesn’t make sense. If the companion is doing the damage than you aren’t using a heavy attack build.

I’m almost all golded out now save for one piece of armor that’s purple. Ember has a bunch of high level gear and she’s fully maxed out as a healer. For me.

You certainly can not solo vet content as the average player with this build. And if someone did that that’s like comparing the guy in Elden ring “letmesoloher” to the guy who just played the game for the first time.

You can’t compare experienced players to the average and causal player who this build is designed for. Most of us are happy hitting 30k
Dps and don’t want to loose that. As it allows
Us to play through dlc dungeons and learn more story in game. And experience other aspects of the game.

No one is trying to go head to head with the big dogs in not a skilled player and not trying to be in just a elder scrolls fan trying to enjoy an elder scrolls game.

I was saying a companion build can clear it all... and any HA build is better than a companion build... it was a comparison...

Any heavy attack build will (and always has been) be able to clear all normal content in the game. 30k is FAR AND AWAY enough dps to clear any and all normal content in the game.

jaws343

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

I mean you don’t even need that because the majority of us playing these builds aren’t even doing the hard end game content.

The hardest for us is DLC dungeons on normal or vet non dlc. But after this nerf forget dlc dungeons I won’t be able to do those anymore at least not as a dps. So it’s just forcing me into changing my build up or making a new character and go as a healer.

If you aren't doing vet trials, and even if you are, the nerf won't stop you from being able to do them. Again, this is one of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out (the nerf to empower) and changing gear sets is standard practice for every single player who does end game content (regarding the nerf to storm master). If you do anything less demanding than that content, it comes down to your mentality holding you back, not this nerf, dungeons depend a lot more on paying attention to things, and while high dps is needed from time to time, ultimates exist for a reason. Nothing is forcing you to play a healer, and if you want to participate in the highest tier of content, changing your build from patch to patch is the norm that everyone else deals with every patch, but for everything under that top tier of content, the damage loss won't kill you, this doom and gloom will.

There is no “doom and gloom” and I don’t want to be in the “highest tier” in already a very low dps player. I was hitting 15-18 k dps before using ha builds. Sucking wind. I have hand issues.

This build allows me to hit 30k and get though dlc dungeons I wasn’t able to before. The loss of dps has a major affect on the low end. Yes if your dps is 100k of course a small loss won’t matter. But when your dps is 27-30 k max of course any loss is going to set you back especially when you spent so much time upgrading gear for it a month later to be nerfed.

And once again there is no “doom and gloom” it’s being realistic. I can’t dps a normal build due to hand issues it’s not possible. This build is not something people want it’s clear the direction the combat is going and soon I will not be viable anymore with this build and people resent it. Why would I want to continue to play with others so resent how I play?

I’d rather switch roles and play the way I want (heavy attack ) solo … but with the dps loss it may not even be worth it solo.

I’ll definitely come back with results after it goes live I’ll make some records to show the loss. From tests I’ve seen it’s a massive hit to the low end.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

isadoraisacat

tmbrinks wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Any HA build is sufficient to do any normal content in the game... and pretty much all veteran content.

You can clear most normal content by just bringing in a properly equipped companion and healing them... doing zero damage yourself.

That doesn’t make sense. If the companion is doing the damage than you aren’t using a heavy attack build.

I’m almost all golded out now save for one piece of armor that’s purple. Ember has a bunch of high level gear and she’s fully maxed out as a healer. For me.

You certainly can not solo vet content as the average player with this build. And if someone did that that’s like comparing the guy in Elden ring “letmesoloher” to the guy who just played the game for the first time.

You can’t compare experienced players to the average and causal player who this build is designed for. Most of us are happy hitting 30k
Dps and don’t want to loose that. As it allows
Us to play through dlc dungeons and learn more story in game. And experience other aspects of the game.

No one is trying to go head to head with the big dogs in not a skilled player and not trying to be in just a elder scrolls fan trying to enjoy an elder scrolls game.

I was saying a companion build can clear it all... and any HA build is better than a companion build... it was a comparison...

Any heavy attack build will (and always has been) be able to clear all normal content in the game. 30k is FAR AND AWAY enough dps to clear any and all normal content in the game.

Sure 30k is nice but after the nerf it will no longer be 30 k due to the nerf. That’s the problem.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

My build is one piece of gear now form being complete other than cp leveling which takes time with a full time job. I haven’t seen the results unfortunately I do not have extra space on my pc to try but from tests I’ve seen it a lot larger of a nerf than you are making it out to be. Again I’ll make records now and when it goes live make a comparison. If I’m wrong that wound be great. But if I’m not I’m definitely going to let people know…and once again you really think those that hate this build will be quiet after this nerf ? They are going to continue to ask for more nerfs. I can hear the resentment in your comment and how much people hate this build. Which is sad most of us are solo players who just want to experience more game and story and aren’t here to compete or sling skills with others.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

My build is one piece of gear now form being complete other than cp leveling which takes time with a full time job. I haven’t seen the results unfortunately I do not have extra space on my pc to try but from tests I’ve seen it a lot larger of a nerf than you are making it out to be. Again I’ll make records now and when it goes live make a comparison. If I’m wrong that wound be great. But if I’m not I’m definitely going to let people know…and once again you really think those again this build will be quiet after this nerf ? They are going to continue to ask for more nerfs. I can hear the resentment in your comment and how much people hate this build. Which is sad most of us are solo players who just want to experience more game and story and aren’t here to compete or sling skills with others.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

Resentment? I'm literally running the build. And I've been defending it.

I'm just being realistic, it is objectively strong. And it will remain objectively strong even after the nerf. Even with a larger nerf.

jaws343

And yeah, if your cp isn't complete, the build isn't complete. CP adds a ton of power to heavies.

CP5

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

I mean you don’t even need that because the majority of us playing these builds aren’t even doing the hard end game content.

The hardest for us is DLC dungeons on normal or vet non dlc. But after this nerf forget dlc dungeons I won’t be able to do those anymore at least not as a dps. So it’s just forcing me into changing my build up or making a new character and go as a healer.

If you aren't doing vet trials, and even if you are, the nerf won't stop you from being able to do them. Again, this is one of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out (the nerf to empower) and changing gear sets is standard practice for every single player who does end game content (regarding the nerf to storm master). If you do anything less demanding than that content, it comes down to your mentality holding you back, not this nerf, dungeons depend a lot more on paying attention to things, and while high dps is needed from time to time, ultimates exist for a reason. Nothing is forcing you to play a healer, and if you want to participate in the highest tier of content, changing your build from patch to patch is the norm that everyone else deals with every patch, but for everything under that top tier of content, the damage loss won't kill you, this doom and gloom will.

There is no “doom and gloom” and I don’t want to be in the “highest tier” in already a very low dps player. I was hitting 15-18 k dps before using ha builds. Sucking wind. I have hand issues.

This build allows me to hit 30k and get though dlc dungeons I wasn’t able to before. The loss of dps has a major affect on the low end. Yes if your dps is 100k of course a small loss won’t matter. But when your dps is 27-30 k max of course any loss is going to set you back especially when you spent so much time upgrading gear for it a month later to be nerfed.

And once again there is no “doom and gloom” it’s being realistic. I can’t dps a normal build due to hand issues it’s not possible. This build is not something people want it’s clear the direction the combat is going and soon I will not be viable anymore with this build and people resent it. Why would I want to continue to play with others so resent how I play?

I’d rather switch roles and play the way I want (heavy attack ) solo … but with the dps loss it may not even be worth it solo.

I’ll definitely come back with results after it goes live I’ll make some records to show the loss. From tests I’ve seen it’s a massive hit to the low end.

Being realistic: If 100% of your damage comes form heavy attacks, and Empower is your only percentage buff to heavy attack damage, you are looking at a just under a 6% damage nerf. If you are wearing Oakensoul, using the weapons expert champion point node, those things dilute that nerf quite heavily, and if you use any abilities, like sorc pets or ground aoe's, and if you have enchantments doing damage on top of that, that 6% becomes even smaller. So, fact of the matter is, the empower nerf is barely on the table, if that nerf breaks your ability to do content, you have plenty of room to grow beyond what you were doing before.

Now Storm Master did get nerfed as well, but there are so many sets in the game to pick as alternatives, many from base zones, or are craftable, or are otherwise available from dungeons which means that, with the sticker book, you'll eventually get any piece you need no matter what. So let's spin the wheel over the hundreds of sets in ESO to find some alternatives that can work in most pieces of content aside from endgame trials.

You can use sets like Redmountain or Unfathomable Darkness, sets that drop form overland and just 'deal damage when you deal damage,' if you wanted to craft something you could use something like Torug's Pact, Oblivion's Foe, Red Eagle's Fury, New Moon Acolyte, Morkuldin, Coldharbour's Favorite, for just some sets that easily do damage or buff your damage output. Note that Red Eagle and New Moon Acolyte add bonus damage stats at the cost of making your skills cost more, but remember, heavy attack builds don't have sustain issues, you're heavy attacking all the time so the increased skill cost are nothing for those builds to deal with. Because, if you are at the 'low end,' you don't have as big of a need for raw damage, and there are so many more options open to you because of that, and if you are trying to push into higher end content, it is common for everyone there to have to swap gear between patches, and changing one base game dungeon set for another is very minor compared to what is normally required.

FrancisCrawford

isadoraisacat wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I actually was solo questing. I was not involved with roles or dps until this year when I decided I wanted to experience more stories locked behind group dungeons. So I wasn’t involved in these discussions. But I don’t believe in nerfs on either side of the fence.

The main issue with this nerf is it affects the lower end players who are using this for solo play and to join some group content they weren’t able to before.

I’m not here for “drama” I just want to enjoy the content I paid for and make my time put in grinding scrying / farming the leads / farming gear / leveling and Golding out gear still worth it.

From what I see HA build will be “ok”
For solo play but likely I won’t be able to solo a world boss anymore. But I will
Try to keep leveling cp points and hope I can push my dps back to 30k which is perfect for normal dungeons and world bosses. With the cmx data actually showing during a dungeon I’m hitting average 14-20 k dps when I’m actually fighting a boss, vs 3 mill
Parse dummy test and 59k trial dummy test.

It will be a massive nerf to my lower level. Which is why I’d rather just switch to healer for group content just sucks I need to spend hours farming and Golding out gear when I already just did that for this build prior to the nerf. And this won’t be the end of it people will still Complain and call for more nerfs on ha. I’d rather get ahead of it and just switch my role.

One mistake you made was golding out any gear except a weapon.

isadoraisacat

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I actually was solo questing. I was not involved with roles or dps until this year when I decided I wanted to experience more stories locked behind group dungeons. So I wasn’t involved in these discussions. But I don’t believe in nerfs on either side of the fence.

The main issue with this nerf is it affects the lower end players who are using this for solo play and to join some group content they weren’t able to before.

I’m not here for “drama” I just want to enjoy the content I paid for and make my time put in grinding scrying / farming the leads / farming gear / leveling and Golding out gear still worth it.

From what I see HA build will be “ok”
For solo play but likely I won’t be able to solo a world boss anymore. But I will
Try to keep leveling cp points and hope I can push my dps back to 30k which is perfect for normal dungeons and world bosses. With the cmx data actually showing during a dungeon I’m hitting average 14-20 k dps when I’m actually fighting a boss, vs 3 mill
Parse dummy test and 59k trial dummy test.

It will be a massive nerf to my lower level. Which is why I’d rather just switch to healer for group content just sucks I need to spend hours farming and Golding out gear when I already just did that for this build prior to the nerf. And this won’t be the end of it people will still Complain and call for more nerfs on ha. I’d rather get ahead of it and just switch my role.

One mistake you made was golding out any gear except a weapon.

We’ll what I meant was making my gear all divines / purple/ gold glyphs / gold staff / monster helm etc

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

I mean you don’t even need that because the majority of us playing these builds aren’t even doing the hard end game content.

The hardest for us is DLC dungeons on normal or vet non dlc. But after this nerf forget dlc dungeons I won’t be able to do those anymore at least not as a dps. So it’s just forcing me into changing my build up or making a new character and go as a healer.

If you aren't doing vet trials, and even if you are, the nerf won't stop you from being able to do them. Again, this is one of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out (the nerf to empower) and changing gear sets is standard practice for every single player who does end game content (regarding the nerf to storm master). If you do anything less demanding than that content, it comes down to your mentality holding you back, not this nerf, dungeons depend a lot more on paying attention to things, and while high dps is needed from time to time, ultimates exist for a reason. Nothing is forcing you to play a healer, and if you want to participate in the highest tier of content, changing your build from patch to patch is the norm that everyone else deals with every patch, but for everything under that top tier of content, the damage loss won't kill you, this doom and gloom will.

There is no “doom and gloom” and I don’t want to be in the “highest tier” in already a very low dps player. I was hitting 15-18 k dps before using ha builds. Sucking wind. I have hand issues.

This build allows me to hit 30k and get though dlc dungeons I wasn’t able to before. The loss of dps has a major affect on the low end. Yes if your dps is 100k of course a small loss won’t matter. But when your dps is 27-30 k max of course any loss is going to set you back especially when you spent so much time upgrading gear for it a month later to be nerfed.

And once again there is no “doom and gloom” it’s being realistic. I can’t dps a normal build due to hand issues it’s not possible. This build is not something people want it’s clear the direction the combat is going and soon I will not be viable anymore with this build and people resent it. Why would I want to continue to play with others so resent how I play?

I’d rather switch roles and play the way I want (heavy attack ) solo … but with the dps loss it may not even be worth it solo.

I’ll definitely come back with results after it goes live I’ll make some records to show the loss. From tests I’ve seen it’s a massive hit to the low end.

Being realistic: If 100% of your damage comes form heavy attacks, and Empower is your only percentage buff to heavy attack damage, you are looking at a just under a 6% damage nerf. If you are wearing Oakensoul, using the weapons expert champion point node, those things dilute that nerf quite heavily, and if you use any abilities, like sorc pets or ground aoe's, and if you have enchantments doing damage on top of that, that 6% becomes even smaller. So, fact of the matter is, the empower nerf is barely on the table, if that nerf breaks your ability to do content, you have plenty of room to grow beyond what you were doing before.

Now Storm Master did get nerfed as well, but there are so many sets in the game to pick as alternatives, many from base zones, or are craftable, or are otherwise available from dungeons which means that, with the sticker book, you'll eventually get any piece you need no matter what. So let's spin the wheel over the hundreds of sets in ESO to find some alternatives that can work in most pieces of content aside from endgame trials.

You can use sets like Redmountain or Unfathomable Darkness, sets that drop form overland and just 'deal damage when you deal damage,' if you wanted to craft something you could use something like Torug's Pact, Oblivion's Foe, Red Eagle's Fury, New Moon Acolyte, Morkuldin, Coldharbour's Favorite, for just some sets that easily do damage or buff your damage output. Note that Red Eagle and New Moon Acolyte add bonus damage stats at the cost of making your skills cost more, but remember, heavy attack builds don't have sustain issues, you're heavy attacking all the time so the increased skill cost are nothing for those builds to deal with. Because, if you are at the 'low end,' you don't have as big of a need for raw damage, and there are so many more options open to you because of that, and if you are trying to push into higher end content, it is common for everyone there to have to swap gear between patches, and changing one base game dungeon set for another is very minor compared to what is normally required.

I’m wearing weapons expert I think it’s called
Which adds additional power to heavy attacks.
Sure I can swap gear but it will just get complained about once I switch and also nerfed. I’d rather just change roles and avoid all this non-sense all together at this point.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

And yeah, if your cp isn't complete, the build isn't complete. CP adds a ton of power to heavies.

Right well I have my cp points maxed out for weapons expert and the the that does off balance both fully maxed. I’m sure there are other mini perks.

But even if that was the case I won’t be maxed out to max cp level any time soon. I don’t have 100s of hours to devote to grinding levels.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I wrote a big post above talking about the problems having the top end dps being extremely high (while nerfing the middle and low end).

From what I understand, the average dps in this game is roughly somewhere between 15-25k (before this nerf). This was hinted at with the introduction of companions, when the developers stated they did not want the companion dps to be higher than the average player’s.

So just think about what that means. The top dps, doing five to six times the average players dps.

Not twice or three times the average, but five to six times the average.

And in eso, where gear is kind of accessible, it means a lot of this difference falls upon the combat system itself.

Does that sound healthy for any game? If I was developing content for this game, I would not know where to begin.
How do I balance something “difficult”, twice the average dps? But the high end will destroy it.
80% of high end dps? Still too easy for them but how many people are going to see it anyway.

You have to create an accessible vet level, then a full throttle hard mode? Do we need to add layers in between now? That’s crazy.

But that 15-20k is 100% not on a trial dummy. End game parses are using the trial dummy. People keep throwing out these sub 30k heavy attack parses that are clearly not on a trial dummy, and then trying to compare themselves to players hitting 80K on a trial dummy.

That player hitting 80k on a trial dummy with oakensoul is hitting 28k on a 3m dummy doing the same thing, without penetration.

28k/80k is the floor for a completed setup oakensorcs build. If you aren't hitting that, your build isn't finished and your parse isn't valid for balancing consideration.

And the reason that is the floor is because that is the DPS the build gets with just holding the heavy attack button down.

So, even if the average player on normal builds hit 15-20k on a 3M dummy, they are being out parsed by oaken builds by a whole lot.

And for non oaken builds, a player doing 130K DPS is likely hitting around 50k on a normal dummy. Which is right in that 2-3 times the average range.

I got 59k on the trial dummy and I get between 28-32 dps on the 3 mill. So I’m not getting 80k I actually posted my results here.

Yeah, and your build isn't complete, as has been mentioned previously.

Again, 80K, with just holding heavy attack down is the baseline of the build. It takes no skill to do so, absolutely zero parsing. Just holding 1 button the entire time while the dummy dies.

But also, let's look at comparisons here. You hit 30k average now on the 3M. Awesome. My solo 2 bar build that solos vet dungeons and does vet trials and vet arenas, does 20M on a 3M dummy.

So already, your build does 10K more DPS than a build that is capable of doing 90% of content in the game.

Your build, at worst will lost 2K. So 28K average DPS, again, still doing 8K more than a solo two bar build that is capable of doing the same content.

You will be fine. Your build isn't even complete yet, you still have like 20k more DPS to land in your lap from just heavy attacking.

My build is one piece of gear now form being complete other than cp leveling which takes time with a full time job. I haven’t seen the results unfortunately I do not have extra space on my pc to try but from tests I’ve seen it a lot larger of a nerf than you are making it out to be. Again I’ll make records now and when it goes live make a comparison. If I’m wrong that wound be great. But if I’m not I’m definitely going to let people know…and once again you really think those again this build will be quiet after this nerf ? They are going to continue to ask for more nerfs. I can hear the resentment in your comment and how much people hate this build. Which is sad most of us are solo players who just want to experience more game and story and aren’t here to compete or sling skills with others.

That’s why I’d rather switch to healer for group stuff so I can avoid the resentment and than play how I want solo (if it will even be viable anymore ).

Resentment? I'm literally running the build. And I've been defending it.

I'm just being realistic, it is objectively strong. And it will remain objectively strong even after the nerf. Even with a larger nerf.

And 2 bar light attack weaving is objectively stronger.

FrancisCrawford

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I actually was solo questing. I was not involved with roles or dps until this year when I decided I wanted to experience more stories locked behind group dungeons. So I wasn’t involved in these discussions. But I don’t believe in nerfs on either side of the fence.

The main issue with this nerf is it affects the lower end players who are using this for solo play and to join some group content they weren’t able to before.

I’m not here for “drama” I just want to enjoy the content I paid for and make my time put in grinding scrying / farming the leads / farming gear / leveling and Golding out gear still worth it.

From what I see HA build will be “ok”
For solo play but likely I won’t be able to solo a world boss anymore. But I will
Try to keep leveling cp points and hope I can push my dps back to 30k which is perfect for normal dungeons and world bosses. With the cmx data actually showing during a dungeon I’m hitting average 14-20 k dps when I’m actually fighting a boss, vs 3 mill
Parse dummy test and 59k trial dummy test.

It will be a massive nerf to my lower level. Which is why I’d rather just switch to healer for group content just sucks I need to spend hours farming and Golding out gear when I already just did that for this build prior to the nerf. And this won’t be the end of it people will still Complain and call for more nerfs on ha. I’d rather get ahead of it and just switch my role.

One mistake you made was golding out any gear except a weapon.

We’ll what I meant was making my gear all divines / purple/ gold glyphs / gold staff / monster helm etc

That's more reasonable.

isadoraisacat

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I had a random thought about this topic the other day.

During the U35 update, many people were demonizing high DPS builds, saying the ceiling needed to be lowered, weaving needed to be removed, etc, etc, because damage was out of control, "unfair," the root of all the game's problems, etc.

I bet that some of those folks are now using the HA build that pumps out numbers, and is now being nerfed, and they don't like it.

That's some irony right there.

What if... EVERYONE stopped spreading negativity about people who can push out good damage, regardless of how they do it??!? Maybe we wouldn't see so many nerf bats if the community could just look at the high damage numbers and say "nice job."

The truth of the matter is, clears require a certain level of group DPS. The more people that can pull a fair amount over 100k, the more room there is for a few people that can't.

But this all started by people whining that it was unfair how much damage people who practiced their light attacks and knew the game really well could do. Has anyone learned their lesson?

To be clear, I am not in favor of the HA build nerf. But I also thought it was ridiculous that people thought the "ceiling" should be lowered by reducing damage from LA builds. The worst thing for accessibility is reducing the amount of damage people can do without adjusting the content. If you take away the drama about HA builds specifically, this is just ZOS doing this exact thing, again.

I actually was solo questing. I was not involved with roles or dps until this year when I decided I wanted to experience more stories locked behind group dungeons. So I wasn’t involved in these discussions. But I don’t believe in nerfs on either side of the fence.

The main issue with this nerf is it affects the lower end players who are using this for solo play and to join some group content they weren’t able to before.

I’m not here for “drama” I just want to enjoy the content I paid for and make my time put in grinding scrying / farming the leads / farming gear / leveling and Golding out gear still worth it.

From what I see HA build will be “ok”
For solo play but likely I won’t be able to solo a world boss anymore. But I will
Try to keep leveling cp points and hope I can push my dps back to 30k which is perfect for normal dungeons and world bosses. With the cmx data actually showing during a dungeon I’m hitting average 14-20 k dps when I’m actually fighting a boss, vs 3 mill
Parse dummy test and 59k trial dummy test.

It will be a massive nerf to my lower level. Which is why I’d rather just switch to healer for group content just sucks I need to spend hours farming and Golding out gear when I already just did that for this build prior to the nerf. And this won’t be the end of it people will still Complain and call for more nerfs on ha. I’d rather get ahead of it and just switch my role.

One mistake you made was golding out any gear except a weapon.

We’ll what I meant was making my gear all divines / purple/ gold glyphs / gold staff / monster helm etc

That's more reasonable.

Right still takes time to do all these things.
Especially getting all gear devines.

FrancisCrawford

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

And yeah, if your cp isn't complete, the build isn't complete. CP adds a ton of power to heavies.

Right well I have my cp points maxed out for weapons expert and the the that does off balance both fully maxed. I’m sure there are other mini perks.

But even if that was the case I won’t be maxed out to max cp level any time soon. I don’t have 100s of hours to devote to grinding levels.

I don't think there's any way to use more than about 1800 CP at once, and probably well less than that.