Kisakee wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What's the reason that a trial run would ban heavy attack builds, specifically Oakensoul sorcs? Is it because they think the parses are inflated compared to DPS in real content? Or because of bad practical experiences with HA builds or something?

DPS requirements themselves aren't gatekeeping in an unfair way, they're just people looking for a smooth run with people who can do the content. I've run low-DPS vet trials and they're miserable and feel like a waste of time. I'm not sure if there are reasons or experiences that lead some people to ban HA builds.

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

There are valid reasons to exclude these builds outside of trials like vCR/vKA such as for group and set composition - these builds aren’t able to really change things up easily as a two bar build and we don’t need 8 sorcs.

There is simply NO reason to exclude HA builds and you don't need any particular class for anything even in trifecta runs. An 8 Templar DD run would just work as fine as an 8 Sorc DD run, depending on the trial some portions would only be harder or easier but not impossible. So again: There's NO reason to exclude HA builds other than that you're trying to minmax which is NOT needed.

You just contradicted yourself. You said there's no reason to exclude HA builds then you say unless you're trying to min/max which is a bonafide reason to exclude redundant classes and inflexible builds for a better composition. I just ran a vRG PUG last night with a majority of HA guys and the run went great but we weren't trying to prog the trial it was straight a clear and gear with most of us having significant experience in vRG - we also got one guy his first ever veteran trial clear which was awesome. That being said in actual prog groups and not in PUGs like the vRG was I've noticed that once we start caring about group and set composition then the prog gets significantly easier.

Traxxar wrote: »

The statement by ZOS mentioned that in some few cases HA was outperforming standard builds. "A few cases" don't justify to nerf a popular playstyle.
I am not too concerned about the nerf to Empower but the nerf to Storm Master is too much. Should allow for at least 2 HA to trigger again. Your numbers and the numbers of other content creators seem different. Others show that Storm Masters up time can easily drop to 50% in content and that is a lot.

ZOS needs to improve the other Heavy Attack sets.

U35 brought an almost flat 20-30% nerf to most/all 2-bar builds because there was, and I quote, „obscene damage“ at the top end of the player base.

I think the very light nerf to HA-builds does not justify all the outcry that is happening here and some of it is even ridiculous IMHO.

Nerfs are never great, I totally agree. But you will still be able to do all content with HA-builds. Do you need to adjust your sets? Probably. But so do all others regularly.

I have multiple chars with Plaguebreak and that thing is being killed for PVE due to very specific circumstances.
In my case that is 5 chars and one set each for at least 625 transmute stones and not counting the mats for golding. So I am not specifically thrilled about that…

There is a thread highlighting the harsh nerf but not close to the outcry for HA-builds.

Don’t need to believe me. There are also content creators who have validated the nerf having very minor impact. The two videos I have in mind show on one side the difference ingame and the other provides the math.

Ghaleb wrote: »

Traxxar wrote: »

The statement by ZOS mentioned that in some few cases HA was outperforming standard builds. "A few cases" don't justify to nerf a popular playstyle.
I am not too concerned about the nerf to Empower but the nerf to Storm Master is too much. Should allow for at least 2 HA to trigger again. Your numbers and the numbers of other content creators seem different. Others show that Storm Masters up time can easily drop to 50% in content and that is a lot.

ZOS needs to improve the other Heavy Attack sets.

U35 brought an almost flat 20-30% nerf to most/all 2-bar builds because there was, and I quote, „obscene damage“ at the top end of the player base.

I think the very light nerf to HA-builds does not justify all the outcry that is happening here and some of it is even ridiculous IMHO.

Nerfs are never great, I totally agree. But you will still be able to do all content with HA-builds. Do you need to adjust your sets? Probably. But so do all others regularly.

I have multiple chars with Plaguebreak and that thing is being killed for PVE due to very specific circumstances.
In my case that is 5 chars and one set each for at least 625 transmute stones and not counting the mats for golding. So I am not specifically thrilled about that…

There is a thread highlighting the harsh nerf but not close to the outcry for HA-builds.

Don’t need to believe me. There are also content creators who have validated the nerf having very minor impact. The two videos I have in mind show on one side the difference ingame and the other provides the math.

Plaguebreak nerf is unnecessary and sucks. U35 sucked. It was a nerf to almost every build period. My main lost 50% of her DPS with U35 between set and skill changes. Swapped some stuff out and got her back up but agree. That said most builds suffered 20-30% and that's what the realistic numbers show is happening to Storm Masters. Also, HA builds weren't left alone in U35, the skills and garb that hit us all hit them too. But the HA damage wasn't hit.

I've looked at content creators and some are complete garbage videos, same with some of the numbers I've seen here. @loveeso did a good job posting the data. I've seen other CC with similar data as him. Some of those creators have ulterior motives (aka incomes to consider) while other players crusading against HA builds do as well (income streams for carry runs, etc).

That said, circling back to the thread of the topic storm master is being removed from PvP completely and any of the people showing that's a "6%" or some other kind of nonsense number don't cover that 40%+ loss of damage when they label the nerf trivial. This nerf is specifically due to gatekeepers gatekeeping and the toxicity from some portions of the community crying for it to happen. Not because it was over-performing. Not because it was BIS. Because some people took umbrage to others being able to "play smarter not harder" and get within 30% of the DPS a hardcore 2bar rotation can get.

This community is toxic. It always was and is getting worse. It's most present in the veteran group content. I haven't done pug vet queues for a long time because of the garbage behavior there and it's spread into the normal content as well. One can only look to how -miserable- it was to do the last undaunted event with pugs to see that.

Slakk wrote: »

In an ESO long ago there used to be this guy named Wrobel; He would have completely obliterated the oakensorc build.
10% nerf is pretty negligible to how ZoS used to gut off-meta stuff.

It seems to me that the game started to fall apart after he and a few others left though.

jirusan wrote: »

Slakk wrote: »

In an ESO long ago there used to be this guy named Wrobel; He would have completely obliterated the oakensorc build.
10% nerf is pretty negligible to how ZoS used to gut off-meta stuff.

It seems to me that the game started to fall apart after he and a few others left though.

When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.

Highly talented people create something with a direction and vision. They have ideas for the future, built on the core game they developed! Those people leave the project, or are fired, and new highly talented people are brought in to replace them. Understandably, it's almost impossible for new "creatives" to follow the same direction and vision as the old. These new people aren't building on the core, they are building on the half-completed game they were given. They don't know what was the core game and direction vs minor expansions.

So the product develops loose ends, it becomes disjointed. It develops multiple personality disorder has it struggles to find who the new developers want their audience to be. It becomes apparent to players where the stretch marks are; where things are being neglected and potential unfulfilled. But that cash needs to keep rolling in! The more popular something gets, the more pressure from the top to make the same or more money nexy year! A totally unsustainable model.

Exactly ADarklore, it is a mild nerf to a single passive, and a nerf to one gear set of many, which is very standard for balance passes. Everyone for all of ESO's life have had to change skills and gear between patches to accommodate to changes ZOS makes, and with more casual players becoming meta players, or otherwise benefiting from a powerful meta build, the standard nerf/buff cycle that has already been in the game for ages hit them. And barely, and as Skinny said in his video, ZOS should hopefully offer more sets to help give heavy attack builds more options, for sure, but as is ZOS did barely anything outside of the storm master nerf, and it caused this backlash. This is just how balance cycles work, and everyone else has been adjusting to changes for ages, and faced far more drastic changes at nearly every turn.

People need to stop looking at dummy parses only. Yes, LA 2 bar builds can hit harder on single target but oaken HA true strength is cleave. In content they blow 2 bar builds out of the water. Most boss fights have adds, mini bosses etc. If you have access to pts, go put 1 extra target dummy on each side of your dummy. Then kill your primarary dummy with oaken HA. Your dps almost triples. Now do parse with 2 bar build. With most builds you won't even double the dps. This is why oaken HA is so OP.

Either the HA build needs to get nerfed more or LAs need to be buffed.