Heavy Attack Nerf by the numbers

Raammzzaa

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

I don't know maybe it's just me but trifecta progressing run is far from calling it an open run. CR+3 is an abvious one to exclude one bar setups from it considering almost everyone runs as one bar and two of the pictures You've posted states specifically about HA sorcs not all HA builds which may suggest leader of the group don't want to deal with pets which may stun everything around when not managed properly and also may cause visibility issues if there will be swarm of them.

I would think they would just say “no petsorcs please” in that case. If I’m not mistaken that post is actually for a dungeon HM team. Thus, the team name. Regardless, those are just the first few pages that popped up. Personally, I don’t care one way or another. Plenty of groups actually want to run with HA set ups so if they don’t no biggie.

loveeso

For those interested in real data from the PTS server (incl. a spreadsheet ) and builds other than Nefas's sorc, here is a thread devoted to it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1

I'm not checking this forum so please leave a comment there if you feel like it

Necrotech_Master

one thing i been seeing for storm master, im not sure how it procs easier on a lightning staff, considering it needs a "fully charged" heavy attack to proc

this would lead me to think that only the final tick would be counted to proc this

if the other ticks are also considered "heavy attack" that seems a like it could almost be considered a bug, because a fully charged heavy attack on a channeled heavy is still the final larger tick, while the 2 smaller ticks would be what is considered "medium" since the heavy has not fully completed

Hotdog_23

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

... I would love to see a parse difference on a 3 or 6 million dummies to more easily see the difference this will make on the solo player since there is no way they will have all the buffs/debuffs of the trial target dummy.

This is "as run" for solo content, tested on the 6M dummy. This means matriarch has heals rather than damage, and a skill is devoted to major breach. I tend to run razor caltrops over elemental susceptibility, but I don't have that on this character. In a PUG with a real tank, this would be hurricane rather than a major breach skill.

Live (note that I've included my skill bar because Bandits UI shows it incorrectly):


Same build on PTS:



For perspective, before the trial dummy existed and prior to the Matriarch nerfs from long ago, my "as run" trial build parsed at 42.5 K self buffed on the 6M dummy. So, although Oaken's buffs add a bit more defensive strength to the build, the overall DPS of a pet-sorc heavy attack build on live is pretty comparable to where it was many years ago.

Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to test and post the results, and for also using an actual solo build.

Stay safe

nokturnihs

Zezin wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

that's cool and all but looks more like people instead of guilds to me.

The OP said he didn't see it happening. It's happening. Regardless of what it looks like that's what the word gatekeeping means. Is there a reason for it outside of cloud rest since that's the only trial I know of with a bar swap mechanic? Maybe specifically the double pet oakensorcs? That's a lot birds and they ARE annoying... Either way... It's gatekeeping kiddo.

nokturnihs

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

one thing i been seeing for storm master, im not sure how it procs easier on a lightning staff, considering it needs a "fully charged" heavy attack to proc

this would lead me to think that only the final tick would be counted to proc this

if the other ticks are also considered "heavy attack" that seems a like it could almost be considered a bug, because a fully charged heavy attack on a channeled heavy is still the final larger tick, while the 2 smaller ticks would be what is considered "medium" since the heavy has not fully completed

Storm master only procs if the final tick crits.

Necrotech_Master

nokturnihs wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

one thing i been seeing for storm master, im not sure how it procs easier on a lightning staff, considering it needs a "fully charged" heavy attack to proc

this would lead me to think that only the final tick would be counted to proc this

if the other ticks are also considered "heavy attack" that seems a like it could almost be considered a bug, because a fully charged heavy attack on a channeled heavy is still the final larger tick, while the 2 smaller ticks would be what is considered "medium" since the heavy has not fully completed

Storm master only procs if the final tick crits.

thats what i thought, so it wouldnt be any better than any other set at keeping this up

Dragonlord573

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

Necrotech_Master

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

wouldnt it have been easier for the sorcs to get empower from just using a mages guild skill?

people do still run HA setups in cloudrest, but they just dont use oaken, and equip the same skill slotting on both bars, using mages guild skill for the empower

Dragonlord573

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

wouldnt it have been easier for the sorcs to get empower from just using a mages guild skill?

people do still run HA setups in cloudrest, but they just dont use oaken, and equip the same skill slotting on both bars, using mages guild skill for the empower

It would yes. Though it was everyone's first time running vcr and it's likely not everyone would have their mage's guild leveled up to the point they could get it. If we were optimized we wouldn't have had any trouble, but we were just a group that was scrapped together.

Necrotech_Master

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

wouldnt it have been easier for the sorcs to get empower from just using a mages guild skill?

people do still run HA setups in cloudrest, but they just dont use oaken, and equip the same skill slotting on both bars, using mages guild skill for the empower

It would yes. Though it was everyone's first time running vcr and it's likely not everyone would have their mage's guild leveled up to the point they could get it. If we were optimized we wouldn't have had any trouble, but we were just a group that was scrapped together.

that makes a lot more sense, if nobody knew what to expect and everyone was kind of just scrambling to get something working

Kusto

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

You can use Oakensoul on CR just fine. Oaken players don't get the bar swap mechanic. Alot of people seem misinformed and gatekeeping the trial.

gariondavey

Kusto wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

You can use Oakensoul on CR just fine. Oaken players don't get the bar swap mechanic. Alot of people seem misinformed and gatekeeping the trial.

There was official posts recently talking about how you can't 1 bar cr anymore. You are the one who is misinformed. This is off topic anyway. The bottom line is camera has shown that the nerf is pretty inconsequential if gear sets remain the same. Storm master can be swapped for noble duelist, which can be procced in melee range and then move back to range until it needs proccing again. If these 2 bolded points could just be sent to everyone we wouldn't have to discuss this anymore.

Kisakee

loveeso wrote: »

For those interested in real data from the PTS server (incl. a spreadsheet ) and builds other than Nefas's sorc, here is a thread devoted to it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1

You're trying to tell me that the Storm Master nerf will reduce HA damage by 24%? No 5-piece set in the whole game is that strong in the first place so even running naked on those five slots can't be that impactful. You better go back to the drawing board.

WeylandLabs

gariondavey wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

You can use Oakensoul on CR just fine. Oaken players don't get the bar swap mechanic. Alot of people seem misinformed and gatekeeping the trial.

There was official posts recently talking about how you can't 1 bar cr anymore. You are the one who is misinformed. This is off topic anyway. The bottom line is camera has shown that the nerf is pretty inconsequential if gear sets remain the same. Storm master can be swapped for noble duelist, which can be procced in melee range and then move back to range until it needs proccing again. If these 2 bolded points could just be sent to everyone we wouldn't have to discuss this anymore.

Who cares ? This is a very concerning topic to players that just want to have fun. Competing is healthy and awesome, so compete with each other... why trash players about this 1 bar build that are trying to get completions ?

I mean I really don't understand unless its on a real revenue standpoint ? And if its on a real revenue standpoint then is a bigger issue than just the game itself. Huge communities already charge hundreds of millions of gold for completions, achievements, skins, items. You don't expect a normi's to hash out that gold anytime soon do you ?

Of course not ! So why keep trashing the builds, because we all know when the nerf goes through, the trashing wont stop. And that's really concerning on a mental health point of view, and needs to be addressed per ZOS IMO...

tsaescishoeshiner

What's the reason that a trial run would ban heavy attack builds, specifically Oakensoul sorcs? Is it because they think the parses are inflated compared to DPS in real content? Or because of bad practical experiences with HA builds or something?

DPS requirements themselves aren't gatekeeping in an unfair way, they're just people looking for a smooth run with people who can do the content. I've run low-DPS vet trials and they're miserable and feel like a waste of time. I'm not sure if there are reasons or experiences that lead some people to ban HA builds.

Kisakee

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What's the reason that a trial run would ban heavy attack builds, specifically Oakensoul sorcs? Is it because they think the parses are inflated compared to DPS in real content? Or because of bad practical experiences with HA builds or something?

DPS requirements themselves aren't gatekeeping in an unfair way, they're just people looking for a smooth run with people who can do the content. I've run low-DPS vet trials and they're miserable and feel like a waste of time. I'm not sure if there are reasons or experiences that lead some people to ban HA builds.

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

Bushido2513

Kisakee wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What's the reason that a trial run would ban heavy attack builds, specifically Oakensoul sorcs? Is it because they think the parses are inflated compared to DPS in real content? Or because of bad practical experiences with HA builds or something?

DPS requirements themselves aren't gatekeeping in an unfair way, they're just people looking for a smooth run with people who can do the content. I've run low-DPS vet trials and they're miserable and feel like a waste of time. I'm not sure if there are reasons or experiences that lead some people to ban HA builds.

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

This is one way to look at it and sometimes this is definitely the case.

But there are also just groups that want to see people care about level of game interaction in the same way they do.

It's like having a race car that's automatic and wanting to race with a bunch of manuals. Nobody is denying that you have speed, can complete the course, or that the competition isn't even. It's that this isn't the spirit of the competitive situation we were going for. And to me there's nothing wrong with getting like minded people together and playing the way you want.

It would be similar to joining an rpg gaming group and sitting back while chatgpt makes all my choices. Yes I'm still there technically but depending on the group and the gaming experience they were going for this wouldn't be appropriate even if it would be easier for me.

Medicate

Kisakee wrote: »

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

[snip] i highly doubt that.
these builds are just not made for fast pace endgame and usually cant compete with real builds [snip]

[edited for bashing]

TheDarkRuler

Medicate wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

[snip] i highly doubt that.
these builds are just not made for fast pace endgame and usually cant compete with real builds [snip]

If there wasn't any toxicity, players could just accept the damage dealt by Heavy Attack players. But no, we have a DPS-meter and are toxic if someone is ahead of us [snip]. That is the toxicity that kills gaming communities.

Back in my old days in ESO during Vvardenfell times we were just happy to clear the raid. There was no "haha, i dealt more dps like you" or "get lost" for dealing low dps. The game has developed so harshly sometimes that dps comparison and "being the best" makes social bonding in the game alot less fun. My best experiences in ESO came from random groups which i joined and (often) later befriended.

[edited to remove reference to quote]

loveeso

Kisakee wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

For those interested in real data from the PTS server (incl. a spreadsheet ) and builds other than Nefas's sorc, here is a thread devoted to it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1

You're trying to tell me that the Storm Master nerf will reduce HA damage by 24%? No 5-piece set in the whole game is that strong in the first place so even running naked on those five slots can't be that impactful. You better go back to the drawing board.

Well, there is no drawing board, it’s just hard data, real numbers, and statistics. It’s not about just one set either—the numbers show the combined effect of both the Empower and Storm Master nerfs on a generic HA build (i.e., class-agnostic and thus applicable to all HA builds irrespective of what class or specific skills they use).

If you are still interested, please check out the spreadsheet attached to one of the posts in that thread and read the test description (especially if you would like to replicate the test and gather the data yourself). I have added the link to that post (and others) at the bottom of the first post in that thread.

loveeso

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Medicate wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

[snip] i highly doubt that.
these builds are just not made for fast pace endgame and usually cant compete with real builds [snip]

If there wasn't any toxicity, players could just accept the damage dealt by Heavy Attack players. But no, we have a DPS-meter and are toxic if someone is ahead of us [snip]. That is the toxicity that kills gaming communities.

Back in my old days in ESO during Vvardenfell times we were just happy to clear the raid. There was no "haha, i dealt more dps like you" or "get lost" for dealing low dps. The game has developed so harshly sometimes that dps comparison and "being the best" makes social bonding in the game alot less fun. My best experiences in ESO came from random groups which i joined and (often) later befriended.

Exactly.

Agenericname

Kusto wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

You can use Oakensoul on CR just fine. Oaken players don't get the bar swap mechanic. Alot of people seem misinformed and gatekeeping the trial.

Under most circumstances they wont, correct.

The issue is that those who utilize both bars get it more often. In most cases that means the supports. Would you want to tank that if you were 1 of 5 people designated to rotate the mechanic through?

Some dont care. I ran a vCR+2 about a week and half ago with all Oak DDs, we killed Siroria. We cleared just fine, but those poor tanks, lol.

Necrotech_Master

Agenericname wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

You can use Oakensoul on CR just fine. Oaken players don't get the bar swap mechanic. Alot of people seem misinformed and gatekeeping the trial.

Under most circumstances they wont, correct.

The issue is that those who utilize both bars get it more often. In most cases that means the supports. Would you want to tank that if you were 1 of 5 people designated to rotate the mechanic through?

Some dont care. I ran a vCR+2 about a week and half ago with all Oak DDs, we killed Siroria. We cleared just fine, but those poor tanks, lol.

relequen is the one with the barswap mechanic lol, siroria is the flares

Ragnarok0130

Kisakee wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What's the reason that a trial run would ban heavy attack builds, specifically Oakensoul sorcs? Is it because they think the parses are inflated compared to DPS in real content? Or because of bad practical experiences with HA builds or something?

DPS requirements themselves aren't gatekeeping in an unfair way, they're just people looking for a smooth run with people who can do the content. I've run low-DPS vet trials and they're miserable and feel like a waste of time. I'm not sure if there are reasons or experiences that lead some people to ban HA builds.

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

There are valid reasons to exclude these builds outside of trials like vCR/vKA such as for group and set composition - these builds aren’t able to really change things up easily as a two bar build and we don’t need 8 sorcs,

However excluding HA players is almost never “gatekeeping” as this forum would have you believe because we just want to clear the content and if you’re a good team player doing your role well and comp does not matter you’re normally in.

As stated elsewhere in this thread demand for HA builds is actually skyrocketing so to the HA attack enjoyers in this thread be flexible, punctual, and a team player so people want you and your build in their trials.

Kusto

gariondavey wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

You can use Oakensoul on CR just fine. Oaken players don't get the bar swap mechanic. Alot of people seem misinformed and gatekeeping the trial.

There was official posts recently talking about how you can't 1 bar cr anymore. You are the one who is misinformed. This is off topic anyway. The bottom line is camera has shown that the nerf is pretty inconsequential if gear sets remain the same. Storm master can be swapped for noble duelist, which can be procced in melee range and then move back to range until it needs proccing again. If these 2 bolded points could just be sent to everyone we wouldn't have to discuss this anymore.

I've seen the official post. But its not true for whatever reason. I've done many runs since then and even 2 last night and no bar swap mechanic. I'm talking about 10+ runs and I wasn't the only oaken user. No one got the mechanic. Oaken user will ONLY get it if someone else who had the mechanic died to it because they didn't swap bar and then it can be passed to oaken player. Go see for yourself. Oaken ha is ez mode in Cloudrest, especially +1, 2 or 3 because 1 less mechanic to worry about.

spartaxoxo

BerylBones wrote: »

I did a parse on live and a parse on PTS with the storm master/sergeant build (partially upgraded to gold). I am not great at parsing, so would love to see numbers from others as well.

On live, my parse was 81k
On PTS it was 73k

Absolutely still a viable build.

Most guilds I have seen have the cutoff for trial groups at 75k. So, that's from viable to non-viable for the vast, vast majority of guilds that I have seen and even greater number of PUGS.

Kusto

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BerylBones wrote: »

I did a parse on live and a parse on PTS with the storm master/sergeant build (partially upgraded to gold). I am not great at parsing, so would love to see numbers from others as well.

On live, my parse was 81k
On PTS it was 73k

Absolutely still a viable build.

Most guilds I have seen have the cutoff for trial groups at 75k. So, that's from viable to non-viable for the vast, vast majority of guilds that I have seen and even greater number of PUGS.

Oaken ha can still hit 90k+ after the nerfs. Thats enough for all vet content, including most HMs. Keep on mind that armor passives are currently not working on pts.

Agenericname

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.

It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.

The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.

It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.

Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?

Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.

At the very least the vcr3 it makes sense because of Relequen. I ran a vcr0 and trying to do Relequen when we had 5 heavy sorcs who needed a Necro to give them empower was a mess. Took us an hour to beat them because the portal teams couldn't do enough DPS on their own.

You can use Oakensoul on CR just fine. Oaken players don't get the bar swap mechanic. Alot of people seem misinformed and gatekeeping the trial.

Under most circumstances they wont, correct.

The issue is that those who utilize both bars get it more often. In most cases that means the supports. Would you want to tank that if you were 1 of 5 people designated to rotate the mechanic through?

Some dont care. I ran a vCR+2 about a week and half ago with all Oak DDs, we killed Siroria. We cleared just fine, but those poor tanks, lol.

relequen is the one with the barswap mechanic lol, siroria is the flares

Yes, that means that Relequen was up when we fought Z'maja because we killed Siroria before going in.

Kisakee

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What's the reason that a trial run would ban heavy attack builds, specifically Oakensoul sorcs? Is it because they think the parses are inflated compared to DPS in real content? Or because of bad practical experiences with HA builds or something?

DPS requirements themselves aren't gatekeeping in an unfair way, they're just people looking for a smooth run with people who can do the content. I've run low-DPS vet trials and they're miserable and feel like a waste of time. I'm not sure if there are reasons or experiences that lead some people to ban HA builds.

There're a lot of people saying that HA players are not worth getting things done because they don't put enouh effort into it as said people, the reasoning is "Back in our days we actually had to learn a rotation!" or something like that. Pure spite and envy if you ask me, they just can't stand the evolution of "dealing damage". Grumpy old beings.

There are valid reasons to exclude these builds outside of trials like vCR/vKA such as for group and set composition - these builds aren’t able to really change things up easily as a two bar build and we don’t need 8 sorcs.

There is simply NO reason to exclude HA builds and you don't need any particular class for anything even in trifecta runs. An 8 Templar DD run would just work as fine as an 8 Sorc DD run, depending on the trial some portions would only be harder or easier but not impossible. So again: There's NO reason to exclude HA builds other than that you're trying to minmax which is NOT needed.