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Heavy Attack Nerf by the numbers
CameraBeardThePirate
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I've seen a lot of complaints stating that Oakensoul HA builds were gutted, that people who need the inclusive playstyle will now be helpless, and that players that aren't as skilled or experienced will suffer next patch.
Were these builds nerfed? Yes, but as we'll come to find out in this post, they weren't nerfed by much. For reference, we will be using the Sorc Heavy Attack Parse found on ESOU. This parse is a 101k dps Oakensoul HA build using Storm Master and Sergeant's Mail, however it is worth noting that in 4 man content it is recommended to use Noble Duelist's in place of Storm Master's (this will be important later).
Empower
First, let's do some math on Empower. On live, Empower is an 80% buff to heavy attacks. On PTS, this 80% bonus was reduced by 10% down to 70%. What does this mean? Well, if a Heavy Attack deals 100 damage, on live, it will deal 180 damage with Empower, and on PTS it will deal 170 damage with Empower. 170/180=0.94444 This means that post nerf empowered heavy attacks will still be doing 94.4% of the damage they were before. What does that mean in the context of a parse? Well, if you look at the parse above, you can see that heavy attacks accounted for 73k damage out of the 101k total. 94.4% of 73k damage is about 69k damage. So, if there was no nerf to Storm Master's the above parse would only drop from 101k dps down to 97k dps.
Storm Master's Nerf
"BUT CAMERA! EMPOWER WASNT THE ONLY THING NERFED!"
That's right. Just like with most patches, a meta set was tweaked. Storm Master's received a nerf to its duration and a buff to its cooldown. In tandem, these changes result in an overall net nerf to the uptime of Storm Master's. Here's where the math gets tough. Firstly, there's no way to judge how much Storm Master's added to the DPS just by looking at the Parse, as it doesn't add its own damage source. However, we can do some math on the potential uptime of the set. This will be higher than the actual uptime in both scenarios. On live, its fairly easy to get a 100% uptime on the set, as it has a 20 second duration and a 10 second cooldown, giving you 10 seconds to reproc without downtime. Lightning staff channels are 2.2 seconds long, which means you'll have no more than 4 chances to reproc the set during those 10 seconds of overlap. At a 50% crit chance (lower than the parses build but easier math-wise), the chances of NOT re-proccing Storm Master's during this overlap can be found by taking 0.5^4 = 0.0625. In other words, on live you have a 93.75% chance to reproc Storm Master's without any downtime, given that you have a 50% crit rate. On PTS, Storm Master's now only gives you a 3 second window of overlap to reproc it without any downtime (8 second duration with a 5 second cooldown). This will give you 1 chance to reproc it without any downtime. With the exact same build as the parse, you will still be reproccing it without downtime more often than not. If you are unlucky though, let's use the same math as before to determine worst-case uptime. To be sure we're reproccing it, I'll assume that it took 5 heavy attacks to proc once the cooldown ends (as 0.5^5 gives us a whopping 97% chance to proc it within 5 heavies). This means it takes 11 seconds from the time the cooldown ends to the time you reproc it. Since you still have 3 seconds of duration when the cooldown ends, this means that a worst case scenario will see you with around 8 seconds of downtime. That means a solid estimated uptime of PTS Storm Master's at 50% crit rate is 50%. Again, this uptime will vary since crit is RNG. Storm Master's is thus taking about a 50% hit to its damage - but note that this is only a 50% hit to the damage it adds to your heavy attacks. It's impossible to tell how much this affects the parse without a TON of math, or without the same player running the parse again with the exact same gear and rotation. However, a nerf to the uptime by 50% would be the same as nerfing the tooltip damage by 50%, meaning it will go from adding an effective 1542 to each HA down to adding 771 to each HA.
Meta and Sets
Here's the thing though; even if Storm Master's accounted for 50k dps and was deleted from the game, Oakensoul HA builds would be far from dead. The meta will shift to other sets that make up for the loss of Storm Master's. As mentioned before, it's already suggested on ESOU to run Noble Duelist's instead of Storm Master's in 4-man content, as outside of a trial you likely won't have high enough uptime on Storm Master's and the DPS parses are comparable. Besides the inconvenience of potentially having to farm a new set (like the entire point of an MMO), the nerf to Storm Master's doesn't really nerf HA builds by much as they'll simply swap to a different set.
TL;DR: Math shows the nerf to Empower should only impact parses by about 4% overall (101k down to 97k). The Storm Master's nerf is impactful to the set, but not the playstyle as other comparable options such as Noble Duelist's exist. EDIT: Check Kusto's comment down below for accurate numbers! Hint: the difference pre/post-nerf is very small
Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 2:16PM Were these builds nerfed? Yes, but as we'll come to find out in this post, they weren't nerfed by much. For reference, we will be using the Sorc Heavy Attack Parse found on ESOU. This parse is a 101k dps Oakensoul HA build using Storm Master and Sergeant's Mail, however it is worth noting that in 4 man content it is recommended to use Noble Duelist's in place of Storm Master's (this will be important later).
Empower
First, let's do some math on Empower. On live, Empower is an 80% buff to heavy attacks. On PTS, this 80% bonus was reduced by 10% down to 70%. What does this mean? Well, if a Heavy Attack deals 100 damage, on live, it will deal 180 damage with Empower, and on PTS it will deal 170 damage with Empower. 170/180=0.94444 This means that post nerf empowered heavy attacks will still be doing 94.4% of the damage they were before. What does that mean in the context of a parse? Well, if you look at the parse above, you can see that heavy attacks accounted for 73k damage out of the 101k total. 94.4% of 73k damage is about 69k damage. So, if there was no nerf to Storm Master's the above parse would only drop from 101k dps down to 97k dps.
Storm Master's Nerf
"BUT CAMERA! EMPOWER WASNT THE ONLY THING NERFED!"
That's right. Just like with most patches, a meta set was tweaked. Storm Master's received a nerf to its duration and a buff to its cooldown. In tandem, these changes result in an overall net nerf to the uptime of Storm Master's. Here's where the math gets tough. Firstly, there's no way to judge how much Storm Master's added to the DPS just by looking at the Parse, as it doesn't add its own damage source. However, we can do some math on the potential uptime of the set. This will be higher than the actual uptime in both scenarios. On live, its fairly easy to get a 100% uptime on the set, as it has a 20 second duration and a 10 second cooldown, giving you 10 seconds to reproc without downtime. Lightning staff channels are 2.2 seconds long, which means you'll have no more than 4 chances to reproc the set during those 10 seconds of overlap. At a 50% crit chance (lower than the parses build but easier math-wise), the chances of NOT re-proccing Storm Master's during this overlap can be found by taking 0.5^4 = 0.0625. In other words, on live you have a 93.75% chance to reproc Storm Master's without any downtime, given that you have a 50% crit rate. On PTS, Storm Master's now only gives you a 3 second window of overlap to reproc it without any downtime (8 second duration with a 5 second cooldown). This will give you 1 chance to reproc it without any downtime. With the exact same build as the parse, you will still be reproccing it without downtime more often than not. If you are unlucky though, let's use the same math as before to determine worst-case uptime. To be sure we're reproccing it, I'll assume that it took 5 heavy attacks to proc once the cooldown ends (as 0.5^5 gives us a whopping 97% chance to proc it within 5 heavies). This means it takes 11 seconds from the time the cooldown ends to the time you reproc it. Since you still have 3 seconds of duration when the cooldown ends, this means that a worst case scenario will see you with around 8 seconds of downtime. That means a solid estimated uptime of PTS Storm Master's at 50% crit rate is 50%. Again, this uptime will vary since crit is RNG. Storm Master's is thus taking about a 50% hit to its damage - but note that this is only a 50% hit to the damage it adds to your heavy attacks. It's impossible to tell how much this affects the parse without a TON of math, or without the same player running the parse again with the exact same gear and rotation. However, a nerf to the uptime by 50% would be the same as nerfing the tooltip damage by 50%, meaning it will go from adding an effective 1542 to each HA down to adding 771 to each HA.
Meta and Sets
Here's the thing though; even if Storm Master's accounted for 50k dps and was deleted from the game, Oakensoul HA builds would be far from dead. The meta will shift to other sets that make up for the loss of Storm Master's. As mentioned before, it's already suggested on ESOU to run Noble Duelist's instead of Storm Master's in 4-man content, as outside of a trial you likely won't have high enough uptime on Storm Master's and the DPS parses are comparable. Besides the inconvenience of potentially having to farm a new set (like the entire point of an MMO), the nerf to Storm Master's doesn't really nerf HA builds by much as they'll simply swap to a different set.
TL;DR: Math shows the nerf to Empower should only impact parses by about 4% overall (101k down to 97k). The Storm Master's nerf is impactful to the set, but not the playstyle as other comparable options such as Noble Duelist's exist. EDIT: Check Kusto's comment down below for accurate numbers! Hint: the difference pre/post-nerf is very small
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jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thank you.
I do think a far better approach here would be to compare a Noble's parse on live to pts, since it is pretty much a 1 to 1, with the only change being Empower.
Personally, I am just going to swap over to Order's Wrath and Sergeants. OW gives more crit and crit damage, and should help in solo or less group supported content more effectively with better crit surge healing chance. Will still hit 80K+ damage with that, fairly easily.4 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thank you.
I do think a far better approach here would be to compare a Noble's parse on live to pts, since it is pretty much a 1 to 1, with the only change being Empower.
Personally, I am just going to swap over to Order's Wrath and Sergeants. OW gives more crit and crit damage, and should help in solo or less group supported content more effectively with better crit surge healing chance. Will still hit 80K+ damage with that, fairly easily.
You are correct, but I wanted to break down exactly how Storm Master's changed too. Plus I simply don't have the hard drive space for PTS.0 -
BerylBones✭✭✭I did a parse on live and a parse on PTS with the storm master/sergeant build (partially upgraded to gold). I am not great at parsing, so would love to see numbers from others as well.
On live, my parse was 81k
On PTS it was 73k
Absolutely still a viable build.6 -
Billium813✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS
Please just fix HA damage buff sets (like Sergeant's Mail) and how they interact with Lightning Staves unique channel damage. Enough is enough. Stop focusing on end game elitists and the 120k club.
If you fixed this one, SIMPLE interaction... you could probably buff Empower to +120%! Or buff Sergeant's Mail from +2.5k to +4k even! AND we could actually have some build diversity in HA builds with viable 2H, Flame staff, or even Bow builds!
The sheer power of Lightning Staves is overshadowing everything to do with HA builds and leading you to create these unnecessary nerfs that only serve to hurt HA build diversity potential WAY more than actually helping to legitimize HA builds!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks10 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BerylBones wrote: »I did a parse on live and a parse on PTS with the storm master/sergeant build (partially upgraded to gold). I am not great at parsing, so would love to see numbers from others as well.
On live, my parse was 81k
On PTS it was 73k
Absolutely still a viable build.
Thanks for this! Doing more math with these numbers, we can estimate the loss in DPS due to the SM nerf.
Empower nerf - 81k*0.96 = 77.7k
73k/77.7k = 94% (roughly).
So roughly, the nerf to Storm Master's is only hitting your dps by about 6%. This is an (extremely rough) estimate, as it's possible SM and Empower are calculated a little differently than how I'm doing it, but that would only change the numbers by a couple percentage points.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 18, 2023 9:29PM1 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »@ZOS
Please just fix HA damage buff sets (like Sergeant's Mail) and how they interact with Lightning Staves unique channel damage. Enough is enough. Stop focusing on end game elitists and the 120k club.
If you fixed this one, SIMPLE interaction... you could probably buff Empower to +120%! Or buff Sergeant's Mail from +2.5k to +4k even! AND we could actually have some build diversity in HA builds with viable 2H, Flame staff, or even Bow builds!
The sheer power of Lightning Staves is overshadowing everything to do with HA builds and leading you to create these unnecessary nerfs that only serve to hurt HA build diversity potential WAY more than actually helping to legitimize HA builds!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks
This is a very big topic. The real issue with HAs, Empower, and these sets is Lightning Staves. The weird interactions with these add an incredible amount of potency to these sets with how lightning channels work6 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭4-10% sounds like a pretty reasonable nerf for heavy attack builds. Let's be fair, they were definitely overperforming.
"According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"18 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭The medium armor passive Dexterity is not applied currently. So current pts parses are loosing 10% crit damage which is alot.
With the exact same setup I get 99k on live and 87k on pts with the passive borked. So the empower and storm master nerf only reduced dps by like 6-7% (NOT 15-20% like some people claim). Nothing to cry over. Oaken HA builds are still OP. They didnt nerf survivability, sustain or cleave. You can still hold down 1 button and clear ALL the content in the game.
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Arcanasx✭✭✭✭✭A reminder that these lightning heavy attacks are also ranged and AOE, which makes these complaints even more absurd considering the damage they're already capable of doing against a single target.7 -
Billium813✭✭✭✭✭
✭Developer Comment:Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.
What have they been working on for the past year to make HA builds viable?
They made Oakensoul (indirectly HA focused...) and they gave HA builds their own buff: Empower. Ok, that's 2 things, kinda. What else have they done though to actually make HA builds viable? Have they added multi-target damage to other weapons, similar to 2H? I know Bow would love something like that for HA. Have they been trying to balance Dual Wield HA damage and passives to make them viable? No.
They have done nothing to increase build diversity in HA builds or give players viable options. Instead, they change 2 HA damage sets to monster only. whoopty doo. -10% to Empower. whoopty doo. We need REAL changes. They seem to look at Lightning Staves being the only viable weapon option and say "whatever". They seem to see Sergeant's Mail as the best HA set, by a MILE, and say "look! HA is viable!". HA is stagnant. HA is a gimmick build at best that's devoted almost entirely to Lightning Staves unique channel damage.
Here's some ideas:- Bow
- Passive - Ricochet
- Fully charged Heavy attacks, dealt at a close range (< 10m), damage up to 1 other nearby enemy for 100% of the damage inflicted to the primary target and stuns that enemy for 2 seconds.
- Passive - Ricochet
- Destruction Staff
- Passive - Tri Focus
- Fully charged Inferno Staff Heavy Attacks deal 20% additional damage to the primary target
- Passive - Tri Focus
- Dual Wield
- Passive - Triple Strike
- Fully charged Heavy attacks damage enemies in front of you for 100% of the damage inflicted to the primary target
- Passive - Triple Strike
9 - Bow
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blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
And be thankful, at least for this patch so far, we aren't getting the 60% swings. You sound like those old Yorkshire men who walked 4 miles to school everyday, uphill both ways and barefoot in the snow.17 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
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Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thanks for posting parse shots as a console player with no PTS or CMX add-on assistance, I find them interesting to see. Now everyone likes to do these parses on the trial dummies, but I would love to see a parse difference on a 3 or 6 million dummies to more easily see the difference this will make on the solo player since there is no way they will have all the buffs/debuffs of the trial target dummy.
Stay safe
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Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »First, let's do some math on Empower. On live, Empower is an 80% buff to heavy attacks. On PTS, this 80% bonus was reduced by 10% down to 70%. What does this mean? Well, if a Heavy Attack deals 100 damage, on live, it will deal 180 damage with Empower, and on PTS it will deal 170 damage with Empower. 170/180=0.94444 This means that post nerf empowered heavy attacks will still be doing 94.4% of the damage they were before. What does that mean in the context of a parse? Well, if you look at the parse above, you can see that heavy attacks accounted for 73k damage out of the 101k total. 94.4% of 73k damage is about 69k damage. So, if there was no nerf to Storm Master's the above parse would only drop from 101k dps down to 97k dps.
It should be even less in most content, especially dummy parses, if you account for the +20% HA damage champion passive and other buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor/Major Berserk, Minor/Major Vulnerability, the off-balance bonus, etc.
E.g. with both Berserk buffs against an off-balance target, that would get you 80+20+70+5+10 = +185% damage on live, whereas now it's only +175%. Using your calculation, 275/285 = 96,5%. So a 3,5% nerf.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.3 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 19, 2023 12:38PM9 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thanks for posting parse shots as a console player with no PTS or CMX add-on assistance, I find them interesting to see. Now everyone likes to do these parses on the trial dummies, but I would love to see a parse difference on a 3 or 6 million dummies to more easily see the difference this will make on the solo player since there is no way they will have all the buffs/debuffs of the trial target dummy.
Stay safe
On a non-trial dummy, since overall DPS is lower, the difference Pre/Post-Nerf would be even smaller between the parses. The trial dummy inflates all your damage numbers, so differences are more pronounced.4 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.
It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.9 -
ZOS_VolpeadminGreetings,
As we've removed a few comments that were baiting, this is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Community Rules to avoid thread derailment.
Thank you for your understanding.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 19, 2023 2:16PMThe Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.
It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.
Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?Edited by Galeriano on April 19, 2023 2:38PM5 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds.
This is misleading. HA builds put out the same DPS as the average PvE build, meaning by definition, they're better than 50% of all builds. The correct way to phrase this would be "HA builds have never dealt the most damage - the highest parsing builds are LA builds".Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 19, 2023 2:46PM9 -
Serophous✭✭I remember last year when everyone was flipping out on werewolves pumping out damage because of oakensoul6
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Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.
It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.
Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?
Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.
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Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.
It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.
Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?
Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.
However, you can also find prog teams running HA sorc comps recruiting as well - apparently for TTT even.
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PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are many groups recruiting specifically HA players, though.
Right now in Craglorn someone was looking for HA builds for vBRP, yesterday I saw HA-only vHoF. On the tank club discord someone's looking for Oakensorcs for TTT.
And I haven't seen a vAS hm group for non-HA builds for a while.4 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.
It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.
Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?
Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.
I don't know maybe it's just me but trifecta progressing run is far from calling it an open run. CR+3 is an abvious one to exclude one bar setups from it considering almost everyone runs as one bar and two of the pictures You've posted states specifically about HA sorcs not all HA builds which may suggest leader of the group don't want to deal with pets which may stun everything around when not managed properly and also may cause visibility issues if there will be swarm of them.
Edited by Galeriano on April 19, 2023 7:13PM6 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.
It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.
Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?
Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.
that's cool and all but looks more like people instead of guilds to me.2 -
SirLeeMinion✭✭✭✭✭
This is "as run" for solo content, tested on the 6M dummy. This means matriarch has heals rather than damage, and a skill is devoted to major breach. I tend to run razor caltrops over elemental susceptibility, but I don't have that on this character. In a PUG with a real tank, this would be hurricane rather than a major breach skill.... I would love to see a parse difference on a 3 or 6 million dummies to more easily see the difference this will make on the solo player since there is no way they will have all the buffs/debuffs of the trial target dummy.
Live (note that I've included my skill bar because Bandits UI shows it incorrectly):
Same build on PTS:
For perspective, before the trial dummy existed and prior to the Matriarch nerfs from long ago, my "as run" trial build parsed at 42.5 K self buffed on the 6M dummy. So, although Oaken's buffs add a bit more defensive strength to the build, the overall DPS of a pet-sorc heavy attack build on live is pretty comparable to where it was many years ago.
4 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »I still don't get why anyone cares if someone else's setup works for what they need. This HA screaming is so bizarre. Yay for those who don't want a complex build, yay for those that do. To each their own. Set yours up the way you like and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing.
It's a form of gatekeeping. Heavy attack builds have never put out more damage than 2-bar builds. But some spend their time trying to feel better by making those around them less.
The word gatekeeping gets thrown around a lot, but i have yet to witness anyone actually gatekeeping over using a HA build - just people complaining about gatekeeping. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's real experiences - but the talk of gatekeeping is absolutely overblown. 90% of Raid leaders aren't going to care what kind of build you're running as long as you're pulling your weight. As demonstrated, pulling your weight with an Oaken HA build is more than possible.
It’s actually pretty common to see open runs in large trial guilds posted with “no HA builds” in the requirements. On the other hand, it’s also getting more common to see recruitment posts for more and more HA build comp prog teams as well.
Yeah so common that neither me or any person I asked havn't seen something like that. Care to provide any examples of guilds like that, preferably with screenshots proving that there are in fact commonly occuring large trial guilds excuding heavy attack setups?
Sure, here you go… searching the discord of every large trial guild that I’m in on PCNA and Xbox NA for “no ha” brings them up.
that's cool and all but looks more like people instead of guilds to me.
That’s correct, it is always up to each raid lead. The requirements for a run in any raid I’ve ever seen were always up to the lead. I said that it I routinely see raid leads stating no HA builds in group, which is true. It’s also common, and becoming more common, to see raid leads requesting HA comps.1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The medium armor passive Dexterity is not applied currently. So current pts parses are loosing 10% crit damage which is alot.
With the exact same setup I get 99k on live and 87k on pts with the passive borked. So the empower and storm master nerf only reduced dps by like 6-7% (NOT 15-20% like some people claim). Nothing to cry over. Oaken HA builds are still OP. They didnt nerf survivability, sustain or cleave. You can still hold down 1 button and clear ALL the content in the game.
Why do you use the "hold down one button" line in a post where all the stats you cite are based on using skills?10
