I agree there are numerous one bar rotations utilising a rotation of skills and heavy attacks which do a lot of damage. People pulling off these numbers would be welcome in vet trials

The difference is, the one bar heavy attack builds I meet in dungeons and trials only heavy attack, or mainly heavy attack and use skills sporadically way out of cooldown! There's often no rotation of note. I saw one guy in a vet trial just yesterday do heavy attack, shield, heavy attack, shield ad nauseum with no other skills cast. That's not doing anywhere near 100k! I don't think it's elitist to not want that in your vet dlc trial.

You reach 100k? Damn what's your secret? I barely parse 70k on my templar and that's with very little penetration (storm master + sergeant) so it's probably even worse in real content

I feel it's an indirect side effect of having both Oakensoul getting Empower (and minor slayer) and Empower getting reworked (in week 4 pts) all in one patch.

Personally I don't care as long people do mechanics and kill the boss in a timely manner, but I do see how people can become jaded.

I've gotten 80k with a one bar, and have yet to see 100k so I'll have to look it up. (Last I read 100k was debunked as cheese and my one bar is mostly for casual play so never tried for more, so I'll definitely have to look it up)As for the hate many see a HA build and think they're just pushing one button and that's it. There IS a rotation, buffs, dots, pet management etc if you want to do more than 60k. By the same token many think all you have to do is slot the gear and hold one button and you're doing great dps, both are wrong.

While there ARE some that hold to the "if I can bar swap and worked at it for hours to hit 130k dps you should too" I'd like to think it's more an issue of miseducation on both parties (some of the low dps using it and others who either see, or hear of it) giving it a bad reputation. As long as you're doing your part I've not seen, or had an issue. 60k dps is fine for base dungeons but you can't walk into a new trial with that and not expect people to be upset.

In years of playing the game I've barely witnessed any hate/displease with those (except PvP obviously), most just don't care or see such players as lower skilled to play with themselves, which is a personal thing and not really one to be telling publicly or directly.

If it's actual hate going probably it's from mid tier players unsuccessfully trying to progress through tough content, which making em really salty about everyone around instead of themselves.

I don’t think it’s that common. The past several weeks I joined 10 or so Hard-mode/pug/vet trial discords in addition to several casual discords and only saw one that posted “no heavy attack builds” in a submission channel

Although a handful are snarky, a majority of people playing harder content are pragmatic. If a heavy attack build works, it works.

CrashTest wrote: »

Is this really happening so much that it's an issue?

I run trials daily, normal and vet, with guilds and with pugs, with top tier players and with completely new players. In all those runs, not once has anyone said anything about anyone using a heavy attack build.

I'm in like 10 trial discords and I've never seen a sign up that excludes HA players. I actually just saw a sign up for an Oakensoul only run.

PCNA

I don't run trials, and in a pug no one takes the time to examine my build... But I've seen a number posts where one-bar oakensoul builds are referred to as cheats.

Another post solely about how wrong it is that players can hit over 70k while only holding down one button. (He was calling for a serious nerf to empower for "balance", because of it). I tried it and didn't get anywhere near that even on a dummy in the content of course it's a joke.

So yes some people don't like the idea of the HA builds and all the things that go with them.

some classes and builds it is impossible to achieve a 100k parse like a 2 handed, 1 bar stam blade build and its one of the major reasos ive been complaining alot that other classes just do 2 hander far far better. my highest parse on a trial dummy with that build is only about 42k.

A stamblade two hander 1 bar build that dishes out a 100k parse simply doesnt exist.

https://youtu.be/stTz8EbHOaU

I haven't really seen toxicity, but I can offer a few insights into end game.

If somebody is doing 80k DPS and struggling with a traditional build, and they can swap to a heavy attack build and see 100k then that is great. However the flip side is if a 120k DPS decides they don't like pushing buttons and swaps to a heavy attack build to do 100k that is detrimental to their entire group. Now to be fair, I haven't seen any cases of players being this lazy, just unverified rumors that it is happening.

There's also the possibility of a newer player that shows potential and is eager to learn. They may end up "stunted" by the vast number of recommendations to go with a 1 bar heavy attack build, when in reality they may have the skill to reach a higher ceiling with a 2 bar light attack build and a little practice.

Some trial mechanics may be unfriendly to heavy attack builds, so they don't work as well as on a dummy. The primary reason for this is that you cannot block-cast heavy attacks, which leads to some issues in places like Kyne's Aegis. They also slow down movement speed and can be an issue when the whole group needs to quickly move together, you cannot sprint while charging or channeling a heavy, while you can between light attacks and instant skills.

I honestly think the current balance between light and heavy attack builds is fine. If anything, Oakensoul could use a small buff in PVE. People tend to exaggerate its power, and push the "easy" builds a little too much. It's certainly not a universal solution for all players, and many will perform better with traditional builds. Maybe this is the type of backlash you're seeing? Aimed at clarifying that heavy attack builds are still objectively suboptimal in end game content.

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Oakensoul is brilliant.

Update 35 was such a dumpster fire that it consumed my mages. It is only by converting them all to Oakensoul-based builds that that they have begun to recover. I've grown to quite like Oakensoul mostly because it eliminates so much micromanagement of buffs and lets me concentrate on actual fighting and reading my foes. I don't think I would call any of them heavy attack builds (except maybe my Oakensorc) but empower does allow heavy attacks to have a useful place in a one bar rotation.

Oakensoul is the only concrete example in the game I can think of that contributes to what the devs say they want - raise the floor. Nerfing light attacks lowers both the floor and the ceiling. Eliminating LA weaving would lower the ceiling but at what I'd imagine would be an unacceptable cost of rage-quitting among higher end players.

oakensoul ring is good but as a 1 bar stamblade that uses a 2 hander i still parse only a little over 40k because i dont have access to any good dots like a dragon knight.

the fact that nightblade is really a burst damage class really shows when you go a 2 handed 1 bar stam build.

I usually try and avoid taking Oakensoul players for my groups for two reason. One Oakensoul players tend to do a lot less damage on trash pulls, you will typically see good dds doing in the millions of damage on a trash pull and an Oakensoul player struggling to reach one million. While Heavy attacks do AoE dps it really can't compare to a dd running full trash setup with magicka detonation and everything. Since dungeons are mostly trash packs I would much rather have 3 dps players with me with "proper" trash pull builds. The 2nd reason is fairness, When I run dungeons I typically run Orzorga's food as well as minor Heroism potions on my tanks, this usually burn 100k gold for 6 key pledges or a trial. While I don't expect everyone to invest as much as me, I often see Oakensoul players using no potions, and they often don't even bother running Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl which would give them more damage and health. To me, just clearing is not the goal. I like to do it in a fast and organized way, even if it's just a "pug" run. Then there is the whole “disabled” argument which to me is just downright offensive.Telling disabled players they can’t play a two bar build is cruel. They can be just as competitive as anyone else.

Galiferno wrote: »

As someone active in the endgame community, I can tell you exactly why players with these builds are receiving flak. Full disclaimer, my guild quickly adopted the heavy attack Oakensoul builds and was able to do Immortal Redeemers without many issues and poly farm the hell out of vAS, so I know where the build is good and even use it myself when I feel like being lazy.

The problem is that the champions of these builds do not realize just how lacking they are in single target where single target is necessary. Back to vAS, 5 minute clears are easy, full Olms burn mini skips are not. I've yet to see a full mini skip in vAS with HA builds.Yet these players want to use the builds for every situation in every trial and can't accept that they aren't universal builds. You will get smoked by good players with 2 bar builds on single target damage, always. So for something like Yoln HM, the HA build is barely "good enough" but cannot push out enough damage for speed strats used in Godslayer, yet recently the HA "community" is pushing the idea of a HA GS. The build has its limitations, yet these players refuse to acknowledge them and feel superior to conventional DPS(I've seen their casual toxicity in their server).

Essentially, these players have gotten incredibly arrogant, with a huge ego, and feel entitled to do any content and then complain when roster skipped in favor of objectively better players. Why would you complain about being roster skipped for a vRG HM when other, much better DPS signed up? You intentionally capped your damage with these builds, you don't have the right to be upset when raid leads prefer higher parsing players.

Whilst I certainly wouldn't doubt your experience with some of your HA people, it's not universal. I and, up until I read your post, most everyone I read or spoken to have no issues, in fact are down right INSISTENT, regarding the fact that a one bar HA build does not do the dps that a well executed two bar build can do, and that there are some areas that a ha build can't do if it requires more dps. It lets them into some areas they couldn't touch, but they know they can't do it all. As for the ones barely breaking 60k with only ha and nothing else expecting to be carried, well, we see those players regardless of what fotm build is up.