JJMaxx1980 wrote: »I never said the gap should be removed. A skill gap between players is healthy but the current gap is a chasm and is way too large. Yes, you could put in the days and hours and weeks to become an elite DPS doing 100k+ but as others have said, this is a game. I love all the replies where people claim it’s so simple to play whack-a-mole with 12 ability timers all with different cooldowns, and also add in potions and synergies.
I have a friend who spends every other day doing nothing but dummy smashing for hours on end. If you enter his house while he’s testing he will stop because he says that having another person in the house causes his DPS to drop. He has 12 toons over 100k DPS. He is the 1%. He’s the guy who tells you how easy it is to dynamically juggle every ability and action and doesn’t understand why everyone else can’t do what he does.
On top of everything else they’ve made the most powerful sets rely on LA weaving. That’s messed up. Now it’s even more important to push a button every 1 second.
I didn’t have to spend 20 years of practicing to be good at Guitar Hero. This is a game, not real life. I have an actual job and this shouldn’t be another one just to take part in the content.
Not long ago, I learned that some people can skip the 'DPS' stuff if they're Mechanically Skilled. There's crazy players out there that do solo challenges- yes, some can solo DLC dungeons with normal builds and half of them has never even owned a Dummy to test their 'DPS' (just practiced their mechanics on World Bosses and Arenas).
Good news: Nobody is forcing us to play like those players, Majority of the ESO community is very understanding and helpful. Seriously, you can still be mediocre and complete vet trials or earn trifectas.
Sometimes it's better to accept that we'll never be as good as the top than to demand that the game changes so we can feel better about the things we lack.
JJMaxx1980 wrote: »I never said the gap should be removed. A skill gap between players is healthy but the current gap is a chasm and is way too large. Yes, you could put in the days and hours and weeks to become an elite DPS doing 100k+ but as others have said, this is a game. I love all the replies where people claim it’s so simple to play whack-a-mole with 12 ability timers all with different cooldowns, and also add in potions and synergies.
I have a friend who spends every other day doing nothing but dummy smashing for hours on end. If you enter his house while he’s testing he will stop because he says that having another person in the house causes his DPS to drop. He has 12 toons over 100k DPS. He is the 1%. He’s the guy who tells you how easy it is to dynamically juggle every ability and action and doesn’t understand why everyone else can’t do what he does.
On top of everything else they’ve made the most powerful sets rely on LA weaving. That’s messed up. Now it’s even more important to push a button every 1 second.
I didn’t have to spend 20 years of practicing to be good at Guitar Hero. This is a game, not real life. I have an actual job and this shouldn’t be another one just to take part in the content.
Then ditch Relequen, problem solved. There are sets that will allow you do deal comparable (maybe sometimes even more) damage that dont need good weaving (or weaving at all). Also there are 6 classes, 5 of them without assassins will and maybe its even possible to reach 100k somehow on a nightblade without weaving, never tested it on a nightblade but its not important that any build / any class can do well without weaving. Further I believe (but I am not 100% sure anymore) that the 100k (without weaving) to 130k (with weaving) parse even used relequen.Let's start off by addressing 'you don't need to weave':
1. I saw someone proclaim 'light attacks are only 8%' when you're forgetting the Relequen is light attack damage, the burning and poison enchants are light attack damage, the assassin's will is light attack damage, the Kjalnar is etc etc. Light attacks, on your 100k parse, contributed 20-30% of the damage (assuming assassin's will would be replaced by surprise attack if you didn't LA I only dinged half of that off).
Why does a stamsorc need LA? The only two reasons are bound armaments and crystal weapon, both got nerft and probably you are better of using weapon skills in most cases than those 2 skills. At least if you dont use those 2 skills, you wont see a big difference with and without weaving and while those 2 skills are that drastically nerft your damage will be very comparable to builds that dont use them.3. Some classes are not affected by LA as much as others. Stamsorc and Nightblade need LA more than a DK - but it's still a hefty chunk of damage when you consider how much the LA procs things.
100k are a bit different. But yes you can easily say that reaching 80k can be done by everyone and is absolutely easy to reach. The proof: there are builds that do such damage just by holding the left mouse button or tapeing the mouse button and going afk. I think everyone has enough skill to sit down and do nothing while the taped mouse will do everything. You just need the right build. Also there are several other builds that arent that much more complicated to play (usually proc heavy).4. Always remember - if YOU find it easy, don't assume EVERYONE will. Otherwise we'd all be heart surgeons and rocket scientists. There's also physical disabilities, mental impairments etc that need to be considered.
Exactly this and its pretty the same for reaching 90k DPS, its for sure doable, you just have to try and put in some effort. Its nothing impossible. Also you should use the right build (no kjalnar, no kinras, no nightblade, no other nonsense that does 0,5% more damage in an optimal situation but far less in non optimal situations) if you want it easier. But this is something that is caused by many content creators that they push such builds as must have builds and new players just copy them and do bad with them.5. If people pay the same, the content should be accessible to all? This one gets trickier because the content SHOULD be accessible, but I also agree some people refuse to put the effort in (and it is effort). I, personally, hate people who don't try more than I hate people who struggle. I always love helping people who will put in the effort because as someone with over 15 years of team sports under my belt I've never worried about whether we win or lose, just that we try and do our best.
PS: And I know there are add-ons, but I do not use them, nor should I ever need to!
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?
I would like to intervene here and suggest that this topic is barking up the wrong tree.
When U35 first dropped on PTS, it was discussed that the content creators and the combat devs are not coordinating. It is an issue to want to lower the ceiling when high DPS is basically required to have a consistent, clean clear of certain trials.
The fact that some people are skilled at weaving and can pull high DPS is not the problem. Let them! They can only help the rest of us in groups.
The fact that some content is created based on the fact that some people can do this is the actual problem. When content is created for the 3%, there will be a huge skill gap unless there is no skill at all required to play, which would be not fun for many.
I think this is being done pretty well in dungeons these days, where there is a hard mode on each boss for those who want to test their skills but top of the line DPS is in no way needed to pass the regular vet modes.
If trials were released going forward and old ones re-balanced such that to clear on a vet setting without hard modes required DPS of, say, 50k average per person, but 90/100k by at least some players in the group was needed to pass hard modes and difficult achievements, more players would be able to see and clear all content, while there still would be a challenge to chase for the "elite" players who enjoy that kind of thing, and the players who are able to hit 100k wouldn't be the target of these discussions. It isn't a bad thing and the issue is not the fact that these numbers can be achieved. The issue is the average DPS needed for a successful run of the content. And by successful I don't mean a five hour run with a million wipes.
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?
None. But people that are able to do as much damage are mostly those who have the will to learn, to adapat and understand their class very well so they are chosen first when it comes to harder content.
I don't get why people keep saying this bc that's not true at all unless you've got a troll, it's progression, or you're with a diff raid that uses strats you're unfamiliar with, but once those high dps get the mechs down or the new strats then it's np. We didn't start out "just [snip] U to the mechanics". It took a lot of practice and wipes to get to that point, and in all those practices and wipes, we learned mechs to the point that it became second nature.DMuehlhausen wrote: »The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.
There's a very weird hate and borderline shaming on these forums for those who can do high dps.
DMuehlhausen wrote: »I don't get why people keep saying this bc that's not true at all unless you've got a troll, it's progression, or you're with a diff raid that uses strats you're unfamiliar with, but once those high dps get the mechs down or the new strats then it's np. We didn't start out "just [snip] U to the mechanics". It took a lot of practice and wipes to get to that point, and in all those practices and wipes, we learned mechs to the point that it became second nature.DMuehlhausen wrote: »The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.
There's a very weird hate and borderline shaming on these forums for those who can do high dps.
It is true though. In any progression group I've ever been in, this is any MMO, normally the people that hit the highest dps are also the ones that are constantly being rezzed. They pay 0 attention to the mechs just keep their ePeen number up. They act like they are carrying the group when in reality it's the rest of the group dealing with their narcissism and carrying them, but they keep being invited, because "HAVE YOU SEEN HOW HIGH THEIR DPS IS". is always the comment.
DMuehlhausen wrote: »I don't get why people keep saying this bc that's not true at all unless you've got a troll, it's progression, or you're with a diff raid that uses strats you're unfamiliar with, but once those high dps get the mechs down or the new strats then it's np. We didn't start out "just [snip] U to the mechanics". It took a lot of practice and wipes to get to that point, and in all those practices and wipes, we learned mechs to the point that it became second nature.DMuehlhausen wrote: »The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.
There's a very weird hate and borderline shaming on these forums for those who can do high dps.
It is true though. In any progression group I've ever been in, this is any MMO, normally the people that hit the highest dps are also the ones that are constantly being rezzed. They pay 0 attention to the mechs just keep their ePeen number up. They act like they are carrying the group when in reality it's the rest of the group dealing with their narcissism and carrying them, but they keep being invited, because "HAVE YOU SEEN HOW HIGH THEIR DPS IS". is always the comment.
JJMaxx1980 wrote: »The latest changes haven't done anything to reduce the top-weighted balance of the skill curve when it comes to damage. The biggest issue I have always had with this game is that the biggest difference between mediocre DPS and good DPS is tenth-of-a-second differences in your weaving ability.
"You just gotta make sure your refreshing your abilities as they are about to run out." Sure, ok. So you have to juggle ten different skill timers, light attacking in between them all, barswapping, drinking potions, hitting synergies... oh and you might wanna look at your screen once in a while to I don't know maybe see whats actually happening.
So you think, ok, maybe I won't hit my abilities exactly on time or maybe my light attack weaving is .05 seconds off, surely I'll still be close to the proper amount of DPS? Nope. Not even close. Go ahead, get the exact same gear, same enchants, same champion points, same skills, same morphs, same food and spend time learning the build, get your light-attack weaving into your muscle memory. So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS.
You put all this effort into a class, spend millions of gold on materials, enchants and farming gear and you still can't get the '90k+ minimum' required to go do high-level content with your guild.
Now this is usually the bit where people will reply to this thread and tell me how easy it is to hit 90k DPS. Go ahead. I'm sure it is for you. I'm happy that it's working out for you. I know alot of people it doesn't work for. I'd say for every one person who humps the dummy for hundreds of hours and gets that 120k DPS, there's 20 other regular players who simply will not be able to do it.
This is a game and combat should be satisfying for normal, non-sweaty players. They make overland content pre-school level of easy, where you can kill anything with just heavy attacks and then they make the high-level out of reach for a majority of players. I've been playing this game for 8 years. It's just very frustrating that I can't create a character and be able to play at a high level.
How do you fix it? I don't know I just know that nothing has changed and their last 'big change' hasn't done anything to level the field.
First of all, ty for sharing your thoughts on this subject with us and I appreciate the level of detail in your post. So lets take a step back and start at the beginning, as I often find that most helpful when trying to tackle tough problems like this. Once upon a time, I was where you are now and faced with the same dilemma. Rather than more or less exhausting myself over this issue I refused to play 'their' game. Thus, I shifted roles and became a Tank, skilled in both Traditional Tanking as well as Heavy DPS role in PvP.
Now, with that said, you might be thinking that I quit, I gave up etc. But in order to move forward something had to go. I could not produce a 'product' that the stiffs would consider completely acceptable to their standards, which fact is, they base their standards on what authorities out there say, so these 'people' are all clones of something someone else says that everyone must have. Some will disagree with this, feel free. However I was rejected from enough Trial Groups to know that its almost like following a religion to some of them and I can't be anyone but who I am... not who or what they want me to immediately become or else. And you know, they have their friends and homies that they're not going to hold them to this absurd standard. So think about that too... gosh that goes for alot of things doesn't it?
In abandoning one path and embracing Tanking (which quite frankly was better in every way) I enabled probably by now hundreds of players to successfully complete content, over all the years I've been with ESO. This includes PvP as well, so the effects of me refusing to break myself in order to meet someone else's cold, unrealistic and unobtainable goal, helped many people and in this regard, I was then and am still now playing at a High Level without playing at their level.
I hope this helps, its a way of thinking you rarely see anymore however I feel that before any real resolution is seen its going to start with a decision made by you, respectfully, that only you can make. Thanks again
I would like to intervene here and suggest that this topic is barking up the wrong tree.
When U35 first dropped on PTS, it was discussed that the content creators and the combat devs are not coordinating. It is an issue to want to lower the ceiling when high DPS is basically required to have a consistent, clean clear of certain trials.
The fact that some people are skilled at weaving and can pull high DPS is not the problem. Let them! They can only help the rest of us in groups.
The fact that some content is created based on the fact that some people can do this is the actual problem. When content is created for the 3%, there will be a huge skill gap unless there is no skill at all required to play, which would be not fun for many.
I think this is being done pretty well in dungeons these days, where there is a hard mode on each boss for those who want to test their skills but top of the line DPS is in no way needed to pass the regular vet modes.
If trials were released going forward and old ones re-balanced such that to clear on a vet setting without hard modes required DPS of, say, 50k average per person, but 90/100k by at least some players in the group was needed to pass hard modes and difficult achievements, more players would be able to see and clear all content, while there still would be a challenge to chase for the "elite" players who enjoy that kind of thing, and the players who are able to hit 100k wouldn't be the target of these discussions. It isn't a bad thing and the issue is not the fact that these numbers can be achieved. The issue is the average DPS needed for a successful run of the content. And by successful I don't mean a five hour run with a million wipes.
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?
None. But people that are able to do as much damage are mostly those who have the will to learn, to adapat and understand their class very well so they are chosen first when it comes to harder content.
but that's not why the system is wrong, if the players want to take the supposedly easiest route. If 20 k dps were required, individual raids would still make high demands because they want to rush through quickly. nothing that ZOS can change.
Of course they would but people with low damage wouldn't have a reason to complain as their damage would be enough to participate in everything and yet they would do just because other people ask for higher numbers.
There are way to many people out there who don't give a Guar about organizing raid parties themself and just want an invite and complete the raid without paying too much attention at all. It's their attitude being the problem and that's also nothing ZOS can change.
I'm a raid lead in one guild for well over a year now and every sunday i offer beginner raids for everyone who's interested. We explain mechanics, tell people what gear is actually useful to wear, give recommendations on builds and even more.
We're getting so much love for doing this and simply everyone can participate if there's enough space in the group and we always complete the raids as we have some well experienced players carrying the whole raid even if the newbies struggle.
But sometimes there's just someone being all selfish and not paying attention or having any respect for anything despite being an all new player. Those are the ones who will always complain no matter how easy they get things. They complain all the way to the point where they have everything and leave the game as it became boring.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Part of the issue is the stress of importance on doing high DPS, as if it's the only metric that means anything.
I don't have the money to buy a trial dummy. So I use the clockwork dummy (the quest one from Clockwork City). I can generally get 25k DPS on any given toon on the clockwork target dummy. The highest I achieved was 35k.
What this means in vet trials, I dont know. Never been in one since 2014 due to the mass amount of elitism. In Vet dungeons I generally hold 48 to 50% of the damage done.
But beyond all of that. Combat is much more nuanced than that. A good player imo, one who is extremely situationally aware can often have lesser DPS because of things they do within an encounter to help the group. For example, rezzing, off heals for low targets that are seemingly not getting healed, switching targets from boss to adds to get aggro off a healer (I main a hunter in WOW for over a decade and my job was always to keep aggro off healers with the use of taunts, pets, traps, etc).
You can't really assign roles to accommodate for these things that happen in fast paced combat, sometimes so fast that even voice chat is too slow to call out an issue, the only solution is to react.
So. In this example, you have a good player, probably one of the best players in the group who uses their awareness and "skill" to make up for the deficit of others, but at the end people only see "your DPS was low, sorry you have to sit this out next week".
Another part of the issue is understanding HOW to damage in ESO has always been a question for new players and even some veteran players. It's not like WOW or SWTOR where you just slot in gear that boosts your stats which give you a net DPS increase period, ESO is much more complicated than that, but it's also not easy to understand. This alone leads to frustration and I imagine a lot of people either opting out of group content, or even quitting the game.
There is also the factor that not everyone has achieved what you have achieved, and yet you forget these necessities need to happen.
For example.
Leveling Undaunted (thankfully that is easier now)
Collecting a mass amount of gear for collections and the even more massive amount of time it takes to do so
Having a dedicated crafting toon to take advantage of the Transmute station
Leveling mages and fighters guild. Fighters guild is easy, you just spam dolems. Mages no so much.
There is a lot that goes into making a "simple heavy attack build" and yet you guys leave the part out.
IMO. The damage skills in a class alone should be enough to achieve vet worthy DPS and then some, without any form of weaving whatsoever. Back bars should not be forced to be used as buff bars to achieve this dps. I would argue that bar swapping should not even be necessary. I don't like new world, but the one thing I do enjoy is that either barred weapon feels as important or as strong as the other. You can run a melee weapon on one bar for melee combat, a ranged weapon on back bar for ranged combat. But each weapon works in its own. There might be synergy between a stun from a back bar weapon to a hard hitting attack on the front bar, but there is no buff sharing.
The issue here then becomes that ESO would need to completely rewrite their combat system, but its not gonna happen.
The bottom line is that, the system is broken at its core, always has been and its doubtful it will ever get fixed. The only thing that can change is the communties mindset towards people who do less DPS, because in general its not the people who do less berating the people who do higher DPS, its the opposite. Only thing people who do lesser DPS complain about the people who do higher DPS is the fact that the higher DPS mock/exclude/berate the lower DPS folks. It's tiresome.
Story time.
Yesterday I was on my frost warden. A toon made to theme with frost. My build is based around a defensive DPS. So I went nord, run 5 light 2 heavy, oakensoul (for simplicity, I get tired of bar/buff swapping). I am around 20k resist and 23k ele resist or sometimes like that. I run a 5 piece, a monster 2 piece and a 4 piece with oakensoul.
I bar shalks, a self heal/DPS ability, desto staff ability, destro staff aoe, and ability aoe.
I have gone from doing 65% of the DPS in vet dungeons to doing 25% DPS in the same dungeon same build. It depends on what the other DPS does obviously. In every scenario though the content is downed with minimal to no deaths.
So. I was waiting for a queue to pop ( that after 45 mintues never did, I switched to tanking) and thought I'd do some dolems around grahtwood while I was casually farming. I helped some lowbie players and a new player who just hit like 98 CP. They sent me a tell asking me what weapon I was using because I was a beast.
And yet, you the reader know that my build is not a beast, just defensive heavy with self heals but by no means a DPS beast. And you also know that although the weapon is a part of a build, its is not the defining factor. But yet this player who made it to 60, is working on their CP did not understand that there is a lot more to the build than the weapon. They felt small and inadequate with their heal build, doing no damage and little healing an dying a lot.
You also know that to get this player up to speed is a daunting task alone with the vast amount of things you need to convey to them.
The entirety of building a character and the combat in ESO, is simply extremely convoluted. Vet players may not realize this, but that is because they have already spent years accomplishing all these tiny little things that need to be done, that ultimately coalesce and allow you to make these builds.
New players do not have this and it seems too few are willing to help. And this, is the crux of the issue.
KilianDermoth wrote: »Sure if the game gets to easy it gets boring - just look at how absurdly easy boring and dumb overland content is, but the actual difficulty, especially in the most difficult content is just to high and the gap to big.
A game shouldnt be made in a way that only 1% will be ever able to experience the whole game and in ESOs case its not just the 1%, its partly even the 1% of the 1% and thats as unhealthy as the babymode of overland.
The gap between both should shrink and the easiest content should drastically get more difficult while the absurd difficulty of most difficult content should be lowered also there should some mid difficulty be introduced so that people can graduately progress and its possible to experience the game for everyone who puts effort into improveing. Right now most trial trifectas for example are just impossible for > 99,9% of the player, no matter how much they improve, because you will also need to get 11 other people on a very very high level to be able to do such stuff.
And the problem is not that you have to learn weaving, not that trial groups have minimum dps standard (because anyone who puts some effort into it can reach 90 or even > 100k), not most of the stuff discussed here in this topic, its just that the content is to difficult and the difficulty of content is also the reason why you have dps standards like 80k, 90k or even 100k+.
Also the 1% of the 1% just will find their enjoyment by pushing scores, as they already already and always do. Makeing content only for them is absolute nonsense.
Also I think that content should be more difficult in small scale than in big scale and not like it is now where small scale is easier and big scale gets partly absurd in difficulty. So in my opinion the dungeon difficulty is fine, because it is achiveable by almost anyone who puts in some effort while still not being braindead easy like overland content (DLC dungeons), but the trial difficulty (especially hardmodes) isnt, because its still impossible for most, no matter how much effort you put in, because coordinating 12 players and getting them on a level where they can achieve everything is just insanely more difficult than the same for a 4 player group. Also it gets absolutely stressfull on that level which kills almost every bit of fun, which shouldnt happen this drastically.
Also that only few people have managed to beat the most difficult content even after months of its realease is speaking for itself and literally has nothing to do with a good and healthy challenging difficulty...
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Part of the issue is the stress of importance on doing high DPS, as if it's the only metric that means anything.
I don't have the money to buy a trial dummy. So I use the clockwork dummy (the quest one from Clockwork City). I can generally get 25k DPS on any given toon on the clockwork target dummy. The highest I achieved was 35k.
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?