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The Skill Curve is still completely Imbalanced.

JJMaxx1980
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The latest changes haven't done anything to reduce the top-weighted balance of the skill curve when it comes to damage. The biggest issue I have always had with this game is that the biggest difference between mediocre DPS and good DPS is tenth-of-a-second differences in your weaving ability.

"You just gotta make sure your refreshing your abilities as they are about to run out." Sure, ok. So you have to juggle ten different skill timers, light attacking in between them all, barswapping, drinking potions, hitting synergies... oh and you might wanna look at your screen once in a while to I don't know maybe see whats actually happening.

So you think, ok, maybe I won't hit my abilities exactly on time or maybe my light attack weaving is .05 seconds off, surely I'll still be close to the proper amount of DPS? Nope. Not even close. Go ahead, get the exact same gear, same enchants, same champion points, same skills, same morphs, same food and spend time learning the build, get your light-attack weaving into your muscle memory. So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS.

You put all this effort into a class, spend millions of gold on materials, enchants and farming gear and you still can't get the '90k+ minimum' required to go do high-level content with your guild.

Now this is usually the bit where people will reply to this thread and tell me how easy it is to hit 90k DPS. Go ahead. I'm sure it is for you. I'm happy that it's working out for you. I know alot of people it doesn't work for. I'd say for every one person who humps the dummy for hundreds of hours and gets that 120k DPS, there's 20 other regular players who simply will not be able to do it.

This is a game and combat should be satisfying for normal, non-sweaty players. They make overland content pre-school level of easy, where you can kill anything with just heavy attacks and then they make the high-level out of reach for a majority of players. I've been playing this game for 8 years. It's just very frustrating that I can't create a character and be able to play at a high level.

How do you fix it? I don't know I just know that nothing has changed and their last 'big change' hasn't done anything to level the field.
Edited by ZOS_Volpe on December 6, 2022 7:08PM
  • jaws343
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    The easiest way to fix it is to form your own trial group with your own minimum DPS expectations. Sine DPS expectations are set by the trial group, not necessarily the game. Plenty of content can be done with 40-50K DPS. It may take longer and be a bit more difficult, but it is doable.
  • Nestor
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    Muscle Memory.

    Learning how to optimize your rotation all comes down to spending time in front of a Targeting Dummy.

    Start off slow, get the sequence down first. Speed will come with practice, then you can hone your timings.

    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
    Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"

  • Khenarthi
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    I've made my peace with staying out of vet trials, personally I cannot be bothered to practice in front of a dummy until my fingers hurt, and then face the judgement of a trial group with very high expectations.

    I'm sorry that you would still like to do that content, OP.
    PC-EU
  • Sarannah
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    Personally I find the entire thought of a combat rotation ridiculous. It's just mashing more buttons, while not looking at the screen at all. This is not how I want to play a game. So I agree with you OP.

    Which is why in other posts about this I asked for ZOS to implement crutch mechanics for lesser skilled players:
    -Auto barswapping.
    -Increased skill damage when not weaving. (If you have not used a light attack in the previous 5 seconds, your skills do 25% more damage)
    -Easier resource management.

    Which could be complemented with other instruments:
    -Showing all ten skills, including ultimates, on screen at the same time.
    -Make buffs permanent, like for example the warden's betty netch. To prevent having to spam those buttons over and over for no reason at all.
    -Show timers on skills.
    -Show boss mechanics in dungeons and raids, right before encountering that boss.
    -Enforce roles in the dungeon finder.
    -Trialfinder.

    Just simple things to help players along, and to raise the floor while not lowering the ceiling. Would make the gameplay more smooth for everyone.

    PS: And I know there are add-ons, but I do not use them, nor should I ever need to!
    Edited by Sarannah on November 30, 2022 9:04PM
  • boi_anachronism_
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    I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..
  • KilianDermoth
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    You can hit 100k DPS without any light attack weaving at all. (I have seen such parses already with 0 light attacks and 0 heavy attacks from people who can parse 130k with light attacks!)

    No light attack weaving vs. light attack weaving just makes up 30% of the damage.

    And the damage of light attacks themselves is just about 10% (look at esologs, only a few parses get more than 10% damage from light attacks, most are below), the other 20% are because of ulti gen and enchancement procs which are triggered by light attacks (and in case of enchancement procs even by weapon skills). But to make this work you only have to hit a single light attack every 9 second and could miss 8 out of 9 light attacks (for ulti gen). Choosing for example the right race makes up to 8% so almost as much as pure light attacks and many people still tell people that race doesnt matter, so light attack damage by itself doesnt matter that much, too.

    If you dont reach high damage numbers (like 80-110k), light attacks arent the (only) reason.

    Btw. you can even reach 80k+ by just holding your left mouse button or even tapeing it and go cooking a meal with the right build...

    Here is the proof: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/yw4bw5/78k_dps_just_from_holding_down_left_click_build/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    Its only 78k but a friend rebuilt it and changed a few minor things and reached > 80k by just holding down the left mousebutton, the whole parse long and when he tested it in a vet dungeon he did even 90% group damage, just by holding down the left mousebutton 🤣...

    So you are plain wrong here.

    But at least you are right, that it is unnecsessarily complex. If ZOS wants light attack weaving to be part of the rotation they should make it easier, for example make it possible to queue light attacks and skills while the skill is running, so that both fire after the gcd finished even if you pressed both during the previous gcd. An arguments like "its not possible" are plain lies...
    Edited by KilianDermoth on November 30, 2022 3:56PM
  • Auldwulfe
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    Nestor wrote: »
    Muscle Memory.

    Learning how to optimize your rotation all comes down to spending time in front of a Targeting Dummy.

    Start off slow, get the sequence down first. Speed will come with practice, then you can hone your timings.

    Which is great for your job ... if the game becomes a job, it isn't fun for a LOT of people.
    I am happy where I am, but I KNOW a LOT of people that get frustrated, because they DID follow the guide they found online, paid out for the gear, have it all up to specs, and still struggle.

    As one person, who recently quit, put it ..... "obviously, I cannot afford all the cheat software used to play this game" ....

    I, honestly, think they need to rethink the entire structure ..... but I also understand the game is what it is..... I average 50k or so, on my DPS characters, and I am fine where I am..... but I also see where people are frustrated.

    We need to consider something other than "put in your hours, so you can get your DPS promotional payraise" .... because it is costing us players.

    Auldwulfe
  • SickleCider
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    Even if you're really good at managing a rotation I can't fathom how that could possibly be fun or interesting. I could see the appeal of mastering something difficult, I suppose, but I would be really skeptical if someone told me they really enjoy sitting in front of a dummy or parsing on a trial boss. I guess that's a matter of opinion and I digress.

    This game has a very strange hybrid combat system that desperately wants to retain all the hallmarks of a classic MMO combat system (managing timers/buffs and debuffs/a skill rotation) while also being an action RPG (requiring dodging, reacting, riposting). It's in this very unsatisfactory middling area that, on the one hand, wants you to be fluid and reactive, but on the other requires strict discipline and suggests the optimal way to perform involves a lot of standing in one spot with a metronome. It's not very good at all at communicating what it wants from you, and it's hard to parse (see what I did there) where the intended game design ends and the meta game begins.

    Result: players are in a weird place. For example, I do flawless vet solo arena runs but most vet trial groups wouldn't have me for a DPS because I couldn't sit there and parse for hours even if I wanted to. My arthritis won't have it. (Thankfully I know some good folks that are happy to have me regardless, and they know I can weave reasonably well and do all the things without requiring me to hurt myself in front of the dummy.)

    Side note: loving Oakensoul for a lot of content lately. My hands hurt less with it and it has the added benefit of allowing me to play more reactively without managing a spreadsheet. Win-win. Too bad it's behind a pay wall and a grind.

    (Foot note: I'm not much of an MMO person. I'm coming from a background in FromSoftware games. If that explains my thoughts on things in any way, there it is.)
    Edited by SickleCider on November 30, 2022 4:03PM
    ✨🐦✨ Blackfeather Court Commission ✨🐦✨
  • KilianDermoth
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    I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..
    Yeah I am also in guilds that have done this and it is absolutely justified, because the dummy got really huge buffs like 15% extra crit damage and plenty of penetration debuffs (you literally dont need any penetration right now at all to parse high on the trial dummy). This way usually parsing 80k now is comparable to parsing 60k-70k before the patch for most builds.

    And depending on the trial 60k-70k (old dummy) / 80k (new dummy) can make trial runs unnecessary more difficult and even yield to failed runs.

    Also its really not a huge thing to reach 80k nowadays on the new dummy (look at my previous post, you can even do this by using a tape and being afk)!

    Further, consider that the lower the damage is, the more difficult it gets for anyone, especially for the tanks who have to be much better players and have a really hefty job to do with low dps damage dealers. Just try to tank vSS with a group that does < 300k DPS, its not fun, except if you are a machoist. And 300k means usually less than 38k real dps per damage dealer, while most of the damage dealers did parse 80k+ on a dummy and a few did parse less than this. I almost canceled the run after hours but finally we did it, but I wont do this again, at least not as a tank!

    Even something like nRG with < 80k group dps with absolute beginners wasnt that fun. My dps alone would be higher (if I hadnt to tank, while I even contributed about 10k dps to the group dps, too...)
    Edited by KilianDermoth on November 30, 2022 4:15PM
  • Stinkyremy
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    I always find it ironic that when the game was announced and marketed, they specifically said that they had the 2 bar swap and just the 5(6) skills to simplify the cooldown process that most MMOs have with 100s of skils on cooldowns.
    then animation cancelling is found as jank in the engine and they say "well it's an engine bug and we can't fix it"
    So this becomes the must do, meta way to play. It becomes so meta that ZOS embrace it and now even have it as a tooltip in the loading screens as if it was an intended mechanic.

    Anyway, now while ESO isn't as complicated in cooldown management as WOW for example. It is infinitely more demanding because the actual weaving "mechanic" is jank (like you cannot actually see the animation of a light attack and only know it hit by sounds or numbers pop up if you have damage numbers on) but more importantly, it is physically and mechanically more demanding to do, especially on a controller.
  • chessalavakia_ESO
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    IMHO, you'd fix it by scrapping what the players at the top are doing that is different from the rest of the game then, you start to cut into the efficiency of what they are doing with a scalpel while buffing the base line capabilities slightly.

    You'll want to release the PTS with the changes months in advance of actually pushing them so that you have time to fine tune the content and make adjustments in a controlled fashion or just plain dumpster the changes if they don't work.

    For example, I think ZOS should seriously consider nerfing Major and Minor buffs by around 20% with some compensation for skills/items that are lesser that apply the buffs.

    If you put it on the PTS in December you can run it for a couple weeks and judge the impact and if it fails you can get rid of it with limited damage if it fails.

    Since the top part of the game is already mad at you and quitting the damage from testing some stuff months ahead isn't going to be that big.


  • Malprave
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    I don’t know what to tell you. The game has never had good balance. No skill level balance, no class balance, no pvp vs pve balance, no ranged vs melee balance. You’ve just got to accept it and move on and enjoy the parts of the game that you enjoy.
  • CrashTest
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    90k+ is extreme even for non hm vDLCs. You only want that much dps if you're into score pushing and some vDLC hms or you just want a quick run.

    65k for vet DLCs non hm is pretty standard entry level on PCNA for non hm vet DLCs. Vet Crags require even less and lots of trial discords/guilds don't even set reqs for that.

    If you can't find anyone to take you, just make your own raid with everyone on your level, then just do it.

    ZOS can't ever fix the skill gap bc it's on each individual player. If ZOS nerfs the top again, it will have a trickle down effect and impact everyone else more. Whatever ZOS does, there will always be those sweaty tryhards like me who pull over 100k. I'm not going to say it's easy bc it wasn't at first. It took me hours upon hours of sweaty tryharding at the trial dummy, reading and watching guides, min/maxing and talking to the top dps in the game before it finally became "easy" for me. All of that effort put into getting better is something ZOS cannot program into the game.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    You may be overestimating the effect of light attack weave timing. If you are off by .05s that means the weaving average is 1.05 and this is less than 5% DPS loss over someone with a perfect 1.00 weave (which nobody achieves anyway).

    Trying to weave too early is worse because it means completely losing the light attack, and potentially missing out on enchant or set procs. Definitely lean toward slowing down the rotation instead of going too fast.

    If you are experiencing 50% DPS loss there are other, much larger, problems with the build or rotation.
  • CrashTest
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    For anyone whose guild is expecting 90k+ for non hm vet trials, just leave them and form your own raid or find another guild bc that much dps is overkill for vet non hm trials.

    Here's a good place to start looking for other places to run vet trials. There are welcoming endgamers lurking there who don't expect you to channel the might of the Nine, Cthulhu, and Hercules to join a raid.
  • AinSoph
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    DONT DO THE FOLLOWING but one of the most hilarious ways of me finding out this absurd skill gap was joining a pug nTrial and right after doing the same trial on vet with the exact same people.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Your premise is not wrong, but you are overstating things.

    Pace is EVERYTHING when it comes to pulling elite damage, anybody who says differently doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure things like DOT/buff management, weaving, bar swapping, potion chugging, etc, make pace harder to maintain, but pace is king. How close can you get to casting a skill every 1 second. Missing a handful of light attacks doesn't hurt DPS nearly as much as losing .1 seconds of pace. That said, you should focus on 100% of LAs and increase your pace as you get better.

    Where you miss the mark, If you are doing everything right, but your are .1 seconds slow on you pace, your damage aint falling by 50%. Its basic math. If you pace is 10% slow, your damage is going to suffer by about that. Don't get me wrong. In a world where the 0.1% are pulling 125k DPS, 10% slow on your pace is noticeable, but its not the difference between sub 90k and 120k+. Something else is going wrong in your rotation. Sub 90K DPS means pace is only the tip of the iceberg that is your rotation problems.

    If you are sub 90k and your skill pace is around .85-.9 skills per second (10% off best of the best), you are messing up one of the other areas, mostly likely buff/DOT management.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on November 30, 2022 10:31PM
  • Zastrix
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    Your premise is not wrong, but you are overstating things.

    Pace is EVERYTHING when it comes to pulling elite damage, anybody who says differently doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure things like DOT/buff management, weaving, bar swapping, potion chugging, etc, make pace harder to maintain, but pace is king. How close can you get to casting a skill every 1 second. Missing a handful of light attacks doesn't hurt DPS nearly as much as losing .1 seconds of pace.

    Where you miss the mark, If you are doing everything right, but your are .1 seconds slow on you pace, your damage aint falling by 50%. Its basic math. If you pace is 10% slow, your damage is going to suffer by about that. Don't get me wrong. In a world where the 0.1% are pulling 125k DPS, 10% slow on your pace is noticeable, but its not the difference between sub 90k and 120k+. Something else is going wrong in your rotation. Sub 90K DPS means pace is only the tip of the iceberg that is your rotation problems.

    If you are sub 90k and your skill pace is around .85-.9 skills per second (10% off best of the best), you are messing up one of the other areas, mostly likely buff/DOT management.

    Especially with the current nerf to light attack damage where light attack on a 100k parse is like what, 9%?

    Here's an image of my 103k parse this patch showing that LAs are only 8! Of damage... 8!
    image.png?width=895&height=651
    Of course people would say that they have the exact same gear but still do small damage yada yada. Well of course. This isn't a MOBA or a Battle Royale game to enter and leave quick. If you're not happy with wanting to learn combat in a game with a complicated and intriguing combat system, well you're barking at the wrong tree.

    If you're using something like relequen you ARE going to loose damage if you can't keep the weaving up. But it's also knowing how to synergize effects and skill, champion points and passives.

    For trash fights I do most AOE damage almost always and the dps requirements are close to 100k on a parse dummy so it's not a random crag run.

    Sets?

    Nerien'eth which isn't good at all, stormfist easily out DPS's it, I'm using it because of RP.
    Order's Wrath which is a CRAFTABLE set, you don't need to farm vet trials for it.
    Pillar Of Nirn which is the king of proc sets rn (I did use it before u35 where it became the meta)
    vMA GS, inferno staff is better this patch but I still use it but it also does bleed damage so you don't even need the vet version, it's just for brag points and like <1k on parses.

    Now with this I outdps everyone in groups but guess what? That's a bad setup for bosses or for lengthy trash fights fights.

    Point is, if you want to be real endgame for the hardest content at the game you need to know the mechanics of the game which inherently makes sense. Know how different skills work, as an example: bleed damage ignores armor which others don't so a skill which has 15k bleed can outdps a skill which has 22k raw physical damage. But you won't know how it performs unless you try it out at the dummy...

    Also HA build this patch can hit 100k so...

    Edit:

    Also if you're arguing that you need to look at your keyboard constantly, it's down to muscle memory. I don't think oh I must click this button to swap bars and then click than button to use the skill located there. If you learn your build properly you just switch bar > skill, that's it. No additional thought steps. It's like arguing that all guitarists are toxic elitists because you can't play Through the Fire and flames after picking up the guitar the first time.

    Also, I can parse 85k - 93k while having my eyes closed, only opening them for a split second just to check the trial dummy HP whether I should execute or not.
    Edited by Zastrix on November 30, 2022 10:35PM
    110-114k Stage 4 Vamprie Magblade u39
    Aldmeri Dominion did nothing wrong in Shadowfen.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Zastrix wrote: »
    Your premise is not wrong, but you are overstating things.

    Pace is EVERYTHING when it comes to pulling elite damage, anybody who says differently doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure things like DOT/buff management, weaving, bar swapping, potion chugging, etc, make pace harder to maintain, but pace is king. How close can you get to casting a skill every 1 second. Missing a handful of light attacks doesn't hurt DPS nearly as much as losing .1 seconds of pace.

    Where you miss the mark, If you are doing everything right, but your are .1 seconds slow on you pace, your damage aint falling by 50%. Its basic math. If you pace is 10% slow, your damage is going to suffer by about that. Don't get me wrong. In a world where the 0.1% are pulling 125k DPS, 10% slow on your pace is noticeable, but its not the difference between sub 90k and 120k+. Something else is going wrong in your rotation. Sub 90K DPS means pace is only the tip of the iceberg that is your rotation problems.

    If you are sub 90k and your skill pace is around .85-.9 skills per second (10% off best of the best), you are messing up one of the other areas, mostly likely buff/DOT management.

    Especially with the current nerf to light attack damage where light attack on a 100k parse is like what, 9%?

    Here's an image of my 103k parse this patch showing that LAs are only 8! Of damage... 8!
    image.png?width=895&height=651
    Of course people would say that they have the exact same gear but still do small damage yada yada. Well of course. This isn't a MOBA or a Battle Royale game to enter and leave quick. If you're not happy with wanting to learn combat in a game with a complicated and intriguing combat system, well you're barking at the wrong tree.

    If you're using something like relequen you ARE going to loose damage if you can't keep the weaving up. But it's also knowing how to synergize effects and skill, champion points and passives.

    For trash fights I do most AOE damage almost always and the dps requirements are close to 100k on a parse dummy so it's not a random crag run.

    Sets?

    Nerien'eth which isn't good at all, stormfist easily out DPS's it, I'm using it because of RP.
    Order's Wrath which is a CRAFTABLE set, you don't need to farm vet trials for it.
    Pillar Of Nirn which is the king of proc sets rn (I did use it before u35 where it became the meta)
    vMA GS, inferno staff is better this patch but I still use it but it also does bleed damage so you don't even need the vet version, it's just for brag points and like <1k on parses.

    Now with this I outdps everyone in groups but guess what? That's a bad setup for bosses or for lengthy trash fights fights.

    Point is, if you want to be real endgame for the hardest content at the game you need to know the mechanics of the game which inherently makes sense. Know how different skills work, as an example: bleed damage ignores armor which others don't so a skill which has 15k bleed can outdps a skill which has 22k raw physical damage. But you won't know how it performs unless you try it out at the dummy...

    Also HA build this patch can hit 100k so...

    Edit:

    Also if you're arguing that you need to look at your keyboard constantly, it's down to muscle memory. I don't think oh I must click this button to swap bars and then click than button to use the skill located there. If you learn your build properly you just switch bar > skill, that's it. No additional thought steps. It's like arguing that all guitarists are toxic elitists because you can't play Through the Fire and flames after picking up the guitar the first time.

    Also, I can parse 85k - 93k while having my eyes closed, only opening them for a split second just to check the trial dummy HP whether I should execute or not.

    Light Attack weaving is the biggest scapegoat in ESO when it comes to damage. Even before the nerfs you could break 100 without weaving. Dont get me wrong, its nice to master it, but its not required outside of trifecta runs. The second someone blames LA weaving for their poor damage, you know you are talking to a person that hasn't got a clue.
  • kargen27
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    I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..

    A group I do trials with once a week averages between 20-30k DPS. We have finished all but one vet trial and are getting close to finishing it. We have done a few hard mode and will get back to that after we finish our one unfinished trial. If the group is situationally aware and knows mechanics 25K is plenty to finish vet trials.

    I can hit 70k on a dummy sometimes but in the trial I am closer to 30k on solo boss. I'm guessing only the elite groups that have every little thing planned out for the entire group get close to dummy numbers in actual trials.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    kargen27 wrote: »
    I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..

    A group I do trials with once a week averages between 20-30k DPS. We have finished all but one vet trial and are getting close to finishing it. We have done a few hard mode and will get back to that after we finish our one unfinished trial. If the group is situationally aware and knows mechanics 25K is plenty to finish vet trials.

    I can hit 70k on a dummy sometimes but in the trial I am closer to 30k on solo boss. I'm guessing only the elite groups that have every little thing planned out for the entire group get close to dummy numbers in actual trials.

    I dont disagree with what you are getting at, but please don't say "25k is plenty to finish vet trials", as it will mislead a lot of people. Context is important for DPS, but the most objective measure of DPS is a trial dummy. If you are only pulling 25k on a trial dummy, you arent clearing most vet trials unless you are being carried.

    A 100k DPS (on a trial dummy), might pull 35k on one boss, and 115k on another. They might pull 50k in one group and 100K in another on the same boss. They might pull 40k in this trash pack and 200k in that one, etc. Context (group, strats, fight mechanics) matters. That's why we talk trial dummy DPS because its objective and standard for everyone.

    Certainly, some groups have way higher than necessary expectations/requirements, but that doesnt mean that DPS requirements are fundamentally a bad thing.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on November 30, 2022 11:44PM
  • kargen27
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    kargen27 wrote: »
    I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..

    A group I do trials with once a week averages between 20-30k DPS. We have finished all but one vet trial and are getting close to finishing it. We have done a few hard mode and will get back to that after we finish our one unfinished trial. If the group is situationally aware and knows mechanics 25K is plenty to finish vet trials.

    I can hit 70k on a dummy sometimes but in the trial I am closer to 30k on solo boss. I'm guessing only the elite groups that have every little thing planned out for the entire group get close to dummy numbers in actual trials.

    I dont disagree with what you are getting at, but please don't say "25k is plenty to finish vet trials", as it will mislead a lot of people. Context is important for DPS, but the most objective measure of DPS is a trial dummy. If you are only pulling 25k on a trial dummy, you arent clearing most vet trials unless you are being carried.

    A 100k DPS (on a trial dummy), might pull 35k on one boss, and 115k on another. They might pull 50k in one group and 100K in another on the same boss. They might pull 40k in this trash pack and 200k in that one, etc. Context (group, strats, fight mechanics) matters. That's why we talk trial dummy DPS because its objective and standard for everyone.

    Certainly, some groups have way higher than necessary expectations/requirements, but that doesnt mean that DPS requirements are fundamentally a bad thing.

    25k is plenty to finish vet trials. I didn't say 25k on a dummy. As you pointed out results will vary when things start hitting back. I know more than a handful of players that can easily hit 100k on a dummy and are next to useless in a trial because they are never situationally aware. They get so intent on keeping the rotation up they miss a mechanic and die. That means we miss their DPS and the DPS of the player rezzing them.
    A couple that are in our training runs for vet trials are getting better at paying attention though. If you leave them dead for a while they start understanding the value of staying alive. They will eventually figure it out and be great assets to the group. I see dummies as a way to compare builds and get familiar with a rotation. The numbers are really unimportant compared to situational awareness once you get in the trial.

    A standard that often doesn't apply is not a good standard.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • FeedbackOnly
    FeedbackOnly
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    Nestor wrote: »
    Muscle Memory.

    Learning how to optimize your rotation all comes down to spending time in front of a Targeting Dummy.

    Start off slow, get the sequence down first. Speed will come with practice, then you can hone your timings.

    I hate that update 35 ruined that for people. So many just play incredibly bad now that makes group content painful
  • haelgaan
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    all y'all using the small numbers on your light attack line to brush off complaints about weave impact need to spend more time understanding your cmx results.

    a good weave is far, far more than just the LA line - it is also the boosts to all of your other skills that goes with the skill or set bonuses that you get from maintaining 'stacks' of attacks. eg rele, kinra, etc.

    a poor weave impacts much more than just the LA line... OP and others acknowledging this truth are 100% correct - minute differences in weaving can have an oversized impact on DPS, and IMO it's one of the worst aspects of the ESO combat system
  • Kisakee
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    JJMaxx1980 wrote: »
    So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS.

    You can't simply copy someones build and expect to be as good with it as they are. The build needs to fit you, even small things like a second of cast time can ruin it for you.

    Plus you need training, lots of it. Go and use this build for a week in all your activities - questing, farming, doing events, simply everywhere. Over time you will get better as you understand what's going on, you will learn all the small details. And you need time, there's no shortcut for "being a top DD". Time, patience and training.
    Edited by Kisakee on December 1, 2022 5:26AM
    "I don't know who you are, but i will find you and i will rob you." - Liam Thiefsson
  • rpa
    rpa
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    How do you top DDs deal with combat turning inside out every 3 months? And key presses not registring?
    Edited by rpa on December 1, 2022 5:40AM
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    Nestor wrote: »
    Muscle Memory.

    Learning how to optimize your rotation all comes down to spending time in front of a Targeting Dummy.

    Start off slow, get the sequence down first. Speed will come with practice, then you can hone your timings.

    I would also add getting to know the fights helps. Transitioning to adds and back to the boss.

    This is all assuming a good build and rotation.
  • lemonizzle
    lemonizzle
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    I agree with the OP, smacking buttons fast enough gives too much dps compared to other factors that are easier to influence.
    Balancing the top 1% is simply the wrong direction, the bottom has to be lifted. Those veteran players will mop the floor with vTrial bosses using april fools brooms, regardless of what the combat team does.

    Side opinion: Currently running gear that was 'good' in 2019 and earned around 35-40k dps in a good dungeon environment. Same setup gives 20-25k dps now on easy bosses. My combat style haven't changed much.
    Considering how far I'm behind the meta and how often it changes I just phoned it in, sticking to overland or other easy content for now. I know the mechanics enough to dance naked around bosses without dying, if they die 20 seconds later because my bad build I can live with that.
  • TheDarkRuler
    TheDarkRuler
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    If 90k dps is the limit juse use Sergeants Mail and Storm Master and do a heavy-attack build. You can do 100k dps with just heavy attacking and weaving in a few skills here and there. See this guide for example: https://eso-hub.com/de/builds/eure-floheit/f4ca6356-8992-4b43-97c8-fefc18dae7ef/raikiri-schneidender-blitz-onebar-heavy-attack-zauberer-100k-dps
  • Melzo
    Melzo
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    The ways of Zos are inscrutable . In this patch, they buffed high level players in both pvp and pve, but weakened medium and weak players. o:)
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