The Skill Curve is still completely Imbalanced.

WrathOfInnos

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

I never said the gap should be removed. A skill gap between players is healthy but the current gap is a chasm and is way too large. Yes, you could put in the days and hours and weeks to become an elite DPS doing 100k+ but as others have said, this is a game. I love all the replies where people claim it’s so simple to play whack-a-mole with 12 ability timers all with different cooldowns, and also add in potions and synergies.

I have a friend who spends every other day doing nothing but dummy smashing for hours on end. If you enter his house while he’s testing he will stop because he says that having another person in the house causes his DPS to drop. He has 12 toons over 100k DPS. He is the 1%. He’s the guy who tells you how easy it is to dynamically juggle every ability and action and doesn’t understand why everyone else can’t do what he does.

On top of everything else they’ve made the most powerful sets rely on LA weaving. That’s messed up. Now it’s even more important to push a button every 1 second.

I didn’t have to spend 20 years of practicing to be good at Guitar Hero. This is a game, not real life. I have an actual job and this shouldn’t be another one just to take part in the content.

Guitar hero is a great example, but I disagree with the context. ESO combat is extremely similar to guitar hero, with the left hand pressing buttons 1-5 (frets or skills), while the right hand clicks only one button (mouse or "string") with rhythmic and critical timing. The main difference is that ESO is capped at one note per second, no 8th or 16th notes, screaming solos, chords, hammer ons or anything fancy really, which makes it significantly easier than most guitar hero songs on even medium difficulty. ESO does not hold your hand about which notes to press, that is left for the players to figure out, and write their own DPS song.

Both games take some practice to perfect, but the learning curve in ESO is more about build knowledge and obscure games mechanics (like hard caps and hidden cooldowns/immunities) than perfect timing and execution.

ForzaRammer

Shihp00 wrote: »

Not long ago, I learned that some people can skip the 'DPS' stuff if they're Mechanically Skilled. There's crazy players out there that do solo challenges- yes, some can solo DLC dungeons with normal builds and half of them has never even owned a Dummy to test their 'DPS' (just practiced their mechanics on World Bosses and Arenas).

Good news: Nobody is forcing us to play like those players, Majority of the ESO community is very understanding and helpful. Seriously, you can still be mediocre and complete vet trials or earn trifectas.
Sometimes it's better to accept that we'll never be as good as the top than to demand that the game changes so we can feel better about the things we lack.

You still can skip the ‘dps parse stuff’ and progress deep into pve content, that’s just being a support main

Kisakee

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

I never said the gap should be removed. A skill gap between players is healthy but the current gap is a chasm and is way too large. Yes, you could put in the days and hours and weeks to become an elite DPS doing 100k+ but as others have said, this is a game. I love all the replies where people claim it’s so simple to play whack-a-mole with 12 ability timers all with different cooldowns, and also add in potions and synergies.

I have a friend who spends every other day doing nothing but dummy smashing for hours on end. If you enter his house while he’s testing he will stop because he says that having another person in the house causes his DPS to drop. He has 12 toons over 100k DPS. He is the 1%. He’s the guy who tells you how easy it is to dynamically juggle every ability and action and doesn’t understand why everyone else can’t do what he does.

On top of everything else they’ve made the most powerful sets rely on LA weaving. That’s messed up. Now it’s even more important to push a button every 1 second.

I didn’t have to spend 20 years of practicing to be good at Guitar Hero. This is a game, not real life. I have an actual job and this shouldn’t be another one just to take part in the content.

If they would make the game as easy as you want it to be there would be no challenge, no learning curve, no success because everything is just an auto win. It would destroy the game, people would move away and ESO would die. There HAS to be content that hard, like it or not.

If you don't want to put the effort needed into it that's a you-problem. Not everything has to be as easy as Overland and more than enough people out there like the current challenge. You CAN participate in the content, you just decide not to as you claim it's "too hard and too much effort" to do so. Change your attitude, not the game.

KilianDermoth

.

dmnqwk

Having spent a couple of decades in several MMOs, this debate is nothing new - the Eloi tell the Morlocks how easy life can be while the Morlocks toil away ceaselessly.

Having spent a couple decades finding DPS easy myself, I'm lucky in that in the real world I have always fought for the rights of my employees because my rights have been good enough. And in video games the same applies - people trying to say 100k dps is 'easy' is the same as a Politician who goes 'oh it's easy to live on X dollars a week, I could do it no problem even though I have 100 times that and have never had to face hardship before in my life.'

Let's start off by addressing 'you don't need to weave':
1. I saw someone proclaim 'light attacks are only 8%' when you're forgetting the Relequen is light attack damage, the burning and poison enchants are light attack damage, the assassin's will is light attack damage, the Kjalnar is etc etc. Light attacks, on your 100k parse, contributed 20-30% of the damage (assuming assassin's will would be replaced by surprise attack if you didn't LA I only dinged half of that off).
2. Some classes are not affected by LA as much as others. Stamsorc and Nightblade need LA more than a DK - but it's still a hefty chunk of damage when you consider how much the LA procs things.
3. Always remember - if YOU find it easy, don't assume EVERYONE will. Otherwise we'd all be heart surgeons and rocket scientists. There's also physical disabilities, mental impairments etc that need to be considered.
4. If people pay the same, the content should be accessible to all? This one gets trickier because the content SHOULD be accessible, but I also agree some people refuse to put the effort in (and it is effort). I, personally, hate people who don't try more than I hate people who struggle. I always love helping people who will put in the effort because as someone with over 15 years of team sports under my belt I've never worried about whether we win or lose, just that we try and do our best.

The next issue to address is 'if I can, you can...'
No. That's not how people work. It's a very common misconception among people that they do one of the following:
1. Mistake frustration in their own ability for a deficit in others - like when your group fails to kill a boss because 'someone else isn't pulling their weight'. You, personally, could be better at explaining it so they understand is always an option.
2. Mistake your own worth - believing your 70k dps on the boss makes you god, yet you're not bothering to help with the mechanics that are actually causing the wipes.
3. Judging others as you do yourself - If you cannot understand why others do not get something as quickly as you do, you're probably not understanding things properly. If you can't teach others to overcome something you can, your skill level is a lot lower than you think it is. Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, only backwards and in Heels - be like Ginger and learn not just your part in things, but others' parts to help them.
4. Spiral of shame - If at first you don't succeed... ask for help. I remember doing Heroic Will of the Emperor in WoW (to get cutting edge achievement) and I sucked at the dance initially. And then our shaman healer said to look top down and, suddenly, it clicked. Within 2 weeks I had the world of logs number 1 dps spot on it thanks to their help.

Failing to appreciate whether you are skilled or how good you are relative to others is something a lot of people do in all walks of life (not just video games) and it's because both intelligence and wisdom are required to be able to see 'the big picture'. If you talk to CEO of multinational companies, you'll understand why they speak in the way they do - they don't get hung up on the little things like pay and benefits for employees, they're busy calculating the statistical model to lead the company into the next decade so that the employees have jobs.

Finally, get over the mindset of 'others should try more' because, just like in life, it's not always possible. Be a force for good, not a farce for it. Help improve others because having 10 people in the world achieve something is pitiful compared to being the reason why 1000 did it.

KilianDermoth

.

Luede

no matter how big the learning curve, content in the normal range can be achieved by anyone, even if they are not particularly talented. If you don't like light attacks, use heavy attack builds, if you don't want to play 2 bars, use 1 bar builds.

there are only 2 areas in the game where you can't get further with minimal effort and that's pve endgame and there i mean more vet trails / certain achievements and pvp and in those two areas it's good that not everyone can achieve it.

this is not about story content which is hidden from the normal player.

Gabriel_H

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: And I know there are add-ons, but I do not use them, nor should I ever need to!

BUT there are add-ons. They work very well.

Add-ons/Mods and TES go hand in hand. It's part of the community. Some addon authors derive an income for their work, as they should.

Add-ons are not required for play- they do however make things easier/nicer/more personal. It's like demanding ZOS change the UI so you like the look of it rather than just downloading an addon (which is 99% less buggy than anything ZOS put out).

Gabriel_H

rpa wrote: »

How do you top DDs deal with combat turning inside out every 3 months? And key presses not registring?

Skill! \o/

peacenote

I would like to intervene here and suggest that this topic is barking up the wrong tree.

When U35 first dropped on PTS, it was discussed that the content creators and the combat devs are not coordinating. It is an issue to want to lower the ceiling when high DPS is basically required to have a consistent, clean clear of certain trials.

The fact that some people are skilled at weaving and can pull high DPS is not the problem. Let them! They can only help the rest of us in groups.

The fact that some content is created based on the fact that some people can do this is the actual problem. When content is created for the 3%, there will be a huge skill gap unless there is no skill at all required to play, which would be not fun for many.

I think this is being done pretty well in dungeons these days, where there is a hard mode on each boss for those who want to test their skills but top of the line DPS is in no way needed to pass the regular vet modes.

If trials were released going forward and old ones re-balanced such that to clear on a vet setting without hard modes required DPS of, say, 50k average per person, but 90/100k by at least some players in the group was needed to pass hard modes and difficult achievements, more players would be able to see and clear all content, while there still would be a challenge to chase for the "elite" players who enjoy that kind of thing, and the players who are able to hit 100k wouldn't be the target of these discussions. It isn't a bad thing and the issue is not the fact that these numbers can be achieved. The issue is the average DPS needed for a successful run of the content. And by successful I don't mean a five hour run with a million wipes.

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

Luede

peacenote wrote: »

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?

Kisakee

Luede wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?

None. But people that are able to do as much damage are mostly those who have the will to learn, to adapat and understand their class very well so they are chosen first when it comes to harder content.

aaisoaho

peacenote wrote: »

I would like to intervene here and suggest that this topic is barking up the wrong tree.

When U35 first dropped on PTS, it was discussed that the content creators and the combat devs are not coordinating. It is an issue to want to lower the ceiling when high DPS is basically required to have a consistent, clean clear of certain trials.

The fact that some people are skilled at weaving and can pull high DPS is not the problem. Let them! They can only help the rest of us in groups.

The fact that some content is created based on the fact that some people can do this is the actual problem. When content is created for the 3%, there will be a huge skill gap unless there is no skill at all required to play, which would be not fun for many.

I think this is being done pretty well in dungeons these days, where there is a hard mode on each boss for those who want to test their skills but top of the line DPS is in no way needed to pass the regular vet modes.

If trials were released going forward and old ones re-balanced such that to clear on a vet setting without hard modes required DPS of, say, 50k average per person, but 90/100k by at least some players in the group was needed to pass hard modes and difficult achievements, more players would be able to see and clear all content, while there still would be a challenge to chase for the "elite" players who enjoy that kind of thing, and the players who are able to hit 100k wouldn't be the target of these discussions. It isn't a bad thing and the issue is not the fact that these numbers can be achieved. The issue is the average DPS needed for a successful run of the content. And by successful I don't mean a five hour run with a million wipes.

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

The non-hardmode veteran versions are actually rather lax on the DPS requirement department. Yes, there are some DPS races, but they are really relaxed. Something like Nahvintaas eternal servant has 3.6 million health on non-hardmode and 90 seconds timer. It means 3 dds needs to dish out 40k dps combined, or 13.33...k each. (On hardmode the Eternal servant will have around 11 million health raising the requirement to 40k+ for each portal dd while dealing with mechanics and all)

What I am coming at is, that the veteran trials already functions like you wish. Sometimes the lower group dps does mean your support players' life gets harder tho. Like in Yolnahkriin/Lokkestiiz, your off tank will have more atronachs to deal with if your group dps is lower, which means their life will be harder.

Luede

Kisakee wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?

None. But people that are able to do as much damage are mostly those who have the will to learn, to adapat and understand their class very well so they are chosen first when it comes to harder content.

but that's not why the system is wrong, if the players want to take the supposedly easiest route. If 20 k dps were required, individual raids would still make high demands because they want to rush through quickly. nothing that ZOS can change.

DMuehlhausen

CrashTest wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.

I don't get why people keep saying this bc that's not true at all unless you've got a troll, it's progression, or you're with a diff raid that uses strats you're unfamiliar with, but once those high dps get the mechs down or the new strats then it's np. We didn't start out "just [snip] U to the mechanics". It took a lot of practice and wipes to get to that point, and in all those practices and wipes, we learned mechs to the point that it became second nature.

There's a very weird hate and borderline shaming on these forums for those who can do high dps.

It is true though. In any progression group I've ever been in, this is any MMO, normally the people that hit the highest dps are also the ones that are constantly being rezzed. They pay 0 attention to the mechs just keep their ePeen number up. They act like they are carrying the group when in reality it's the rest of the group dealing with their narcissism and carrying them, but they keep being invited, because "HAVE YOU SEEN HOW HIGH THEIR DPS IS". is always the comment.

[edited to remove quote]

ForzaRammer

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.

I don't get why people keep saying this bc that's not true at all unless you've got a troll, it's progression, or you're with a diff raid that uses strats you're unfamiliar with, but once those high dps get the mechs down or the new strats then it's np. We didn't start out "just [snip] U to the mechanics". It took a lot of practice and wipes to get to that point, and in all those practices and wipes, we learned mechs to the point that it became second nature.

There's a very weird hate and borderline shaming on these forums for those who can do high dps.

It is true though. In any progression group I've ever been in, this is any MMO, normally the people that hit the highest dps are also the ones that are constantly being rezzed. They pay 0 attention to the mechs just keep their ePeen number up. They act like they are carrying the group when in reality it's the rest of the group dealing with their narcissism and carrying them, but they keep being invited, because "HAVE YOU SEEN HOW HIGH THEIR DPS IS". is always the comment.

I don’t know in what content you see these subpar dd that actual do mechs.

Normally the people who are good at mechs and suck at parse just play support instead.

[edited to remove quote]

CrashTest

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.

I don't get why people keep saying this bc that's not true at all unless you've got a troll, it's progression, or you're with a diff raid that uses strats you're unfamiliar with, but once those high dps get the mechs down or the new strats then it's np. We didn't start out "just [snip] U to the mechanics". It took a lot of practice and wipes to get to that point, and in all those practices and wipes, we learned mechs to the point that it became second nature.

There's a very weird hate and borderline shaming on these forums for those who can do high dps.

It is true though. In any progression group I've ever been in, this is any MMO, normally the people that hit the highest dps are also the ones that are constantly being rezzed. They pay 0 attention to the mechs just keep their ePeen number up. They act like they are carrying the group when in reality it's the rest of the group dealing with their narcissism and carrying them, but they keep being invited, because "HAVE YOU SEEN HOW HIGH THEIR DPS IS". is always the comment.

I literally said unless it's a troll in my first sentence. What you're describing is a troll..

The uncooperative trolls who play like they're special bc of their parse don't last long in a coordinated premade bc they'll get kicked, and they are absolutely not the norm or majority of the high DPS in ESO. If they were, no one would ever get the hardest hard modes done, let alone no death runs.

[edited to remove quote]

Freelancer_ESO

Vulkunne wrote: »

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

The latest changes haven't done anything to reduce the top-weighted balance of the skill curve when it comes to damage. The biggest issue I have always had with this game is that the biggest difference between mediocre DPS and good DPS is tenth-of-a-second differences in your weaving ability.

"You just gotta make sure your refreshing your abilities as they are about to run out." Sure, ok. So you have to juggle ten different skill timers, light attacking in between them all, barswapping, drinking potions, hitting synergies... oh and you might wanna look at your screen once in a while to I don't know maybe see whats actually happening.

So you think, ok, maybe I won't hit my abilities exactly on time or maybe my light attack weaving is .05 seconds off, surely I'll still be close to the proper amount of DPS? Nope. Not even close. Go ahead, get the exact same gear, same enchants, same champion points, same skills, same morphs, same food and spend time learning the build, get your light-attack weaving into your muscle memory. So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS.

You put all this effort into a class, spend millions of gold on materials, enchants and farming gear and you still can't get the '90k+ minimum' required to go do high-level content with your guild.

Now this is usually the bit where people will reply to this thread and tell me how easy it is to hit 90k DPS. Go ahead. I'm sure it is for you. I'm happy that it's working out for you. I know alot of people it doesn't work for. I'd say for every one person who humps the dummy for hundreds of hours and gets that 120k DPS, there's 20 other regular players who simply will not be able to do it.

This is a game and combat should be satisfying for normal, non-sweaty players. They make overland content pre-school level of easy, where you can kill anything with just heavy attacks and then they make the high-level out of reach for a majority of players. I've been playing this game for 8 years. It's just very frustrating that I can't create a character and be able to play at a high level.

How do you fix it? I don't know I just know that nothing has changed and their last 'big change' hasn't done anything to level the field.

First of all, ty for sharing your thoughts on this subject with us and I appreciate the level of detail in your post. So lets take a step back and start at the beginning, as I often find that most helpful when trying to tackle tough problems like this. Once upon a time, I was where you are now and faced with the same dilemma. Rather than more or less exhausting myself over this issue I refused to play 'their' game. Thus, I shifted roles and became a Tank, skilled in both Traditional Tanking as well as Heavy DPS role in PvP.

Now, with that said, you might be thinking that I quit, I gave up etc. But in order to move forward something had to go. I could not produce a 'product' that the stiffs would consider completely acceptable to their standards, which fact is, they base their standards on what authorities out there say, so these 'people' are all clones of something someone else says that everyone must have. Some will disagree with this, feel free. However I was rejected from enough Trial Groups to know that its almost like following a religion to some of them and I can't be anyone but who I am... not who or what they want me to immediately become or else. And you know, they have their friends and homies that they're not going to hold them to this absurd standard. So think about that too... gosh that goes for alot of things doesn't it?

In abandoning one path and embracing Tanking (which quite frankly was better in every way) I enabled probably by now hundreds of players to successfully complete content, over all the years I've been with ESO. This includes PvP as well, so the effects of me refusing to break myself in order to meet someone else's cold, unrealistic and unobtainable goal, helped many people and in this regard, I was then and am still now playing at a High Level without playing at their level.

I hope this helps, its a way of thinking you rarely see anymore however I feel that before any real resolution is seen its going to start with a decision made by you, respectfully, that only you can make. Thanks again

Personally, I'd argue that it's an opportunity to push for ZOS to consider changing the approach somewhat.

Why keep a design that a tiny portion of the game likes that are pretty clearly vocal in their dislike of the game?

It'd be someth

peacenote wrote: »

I would like to intervene here and suggest that this topic is barking up the wrong tree.

When U35 first dropped on PTS, it was discussed that the content creators and the combat devs are not coordinating. It is an issue to want to lower the ceiling when high DPS is basically required to have a consistent, clean clear of certain trials.

The fact that some people are skilled at weaving and can pull high DPS is not the problem. Let them! They can only help the rest of us in groups.

The fact that some content is created based on the fact that some people can do this is the actual problem. When content is created for the 3%, there will be a huge skill gap unless there is no skill at all required to play, which would be not fun for many.

I think this is being done pretty well in dungeons these days, where there is a hard mode on each boss for those who want to test their skills but top of the line DPS is in no way needed to pass the regular vet modes.

If trials were released going forward and old ones re-balanced such that to clear on a vet setting without hard modes required DPS of, say, 50k average per person, but 90/100k by at least some players in the group was needed to pass hard modes and difficult achievements, more players would be able to see and clear all content, while there still would be a challenge to chase for the "elite" players who enjoy that kind of thing, and the players who are able to hit 100k wouldn't be the target of these discussions. It isn't a bad thing and the issue is not the fact that these numbers can be achieved. The issue is the average DPS needed for a successful run of the content. And by successful I don't mean a five hour run with a million wipes.

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

The high DPS numbers are absolutely a problem as they change player expectations, player behavior, and the content experience.

Part of the reason players don't tank, fake tank, or leave longer dungeons is because the damage of the other players fails to meet their expectations.

In normal dungeons you will frequently have mechanics fail to fire even in DLC Dungeons because the boss doesn't live long enough to hit the stage to fire it.

For most of the content in the game, player expectations/perceived player expectations massively exceed the actual content requirements.

The high DPS numbers are also one of several factors in why some people don't like Overland Content as everything blows up too fast.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

With heavy attack builds now, you can easily hit high numbers with very minimal effort though. For example, I have hit 83k on the 21 mil with only one button and an ultimate. Yes, just wall of elements, heavy attacking, and dropping my ult when ready. 83k, and it would be higher if I actually optimized. 45.8k on the 3 mil dummy with the addition of elemental drain for a total of 2 buttons. With a minimum extra effort of adding in hitting your volatile familiar and daedric prey, you can easily achieve 90k+ dps.

Kisakee

Luede wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?

None. But people that are able to do as much damage are mostly those who have the will to learn, to adapat and understand their class very well so they are chosen first when it comes to harder content.

but that's not why the system is wrong, if the players want to take the supposedly easiest route. If 20 k dps were required, individual raids would still make high demands because they want to rush through quickly. nothing that ZOS can change.

Of course they would but people with low damage wouldn't have a reason to complain as their damage would be enough to participate in everything and yet they would do just because other people ask for higher numbers.

There are way to many people out there who don't give a Guar about organizing raid parties themself and just want an invite and complete the raid without paying too much attention at all. It's their attitude being the problem and that's also nothing ZOS can change.

I'm a raid lead in one guild for well over a year now and every sunday i offer beginner raids for everyone who's interested. We explain mechanics, tell people what gear is actually useful to wear, give recommendations on builds and even more.
We're getting so much love for doing this and simply everyone can participate if there's enough space in the group and we always complete the raids as we have some well experienced players carrying the whole raid even if the newbies struggle.

But sometimes there's just someone being all selfish and not paying attention or having any respect for anything despite being an all new player. Those are the ones who will always complain no matter how easy they get things. They complain all the way to the point where they have everything and leave the game as it became boring.

Auldwulfe

I'll be honest, I tried DPS ... and was ok... as in adequate, but not outstanding ... I know this, I am in my mid-50's and not as spry as I once was ....
Per my guild, I can run about 25K to 40K --- and they say I am pretty consistent on the run ... but I tend to just use shards, and LA Weave with Flurry ... relying on my gear to buff. It is good enough for me, and I don't do a LOT of vet or later stuff as DPS, anyways.

I was tanking, but the block bug made that, pretty much, impossible..... can't pull aggro when you are flat on your back because every add has a 2-hand weapon, and per the last set of notes - THOSE are not only working, but have been upgraded to hit more consistently...... wish we had knock back with 2-handed.....

So, right now, I am leveling a Necro healer .... it is working pretty well, although I think I went overboard with my sustain.... will need to adjust a bit..

Thing is, I have gone into trials with my guild, and have pulled my weight .. it isn't that you need HUGE DPS ... but that you use it consistently, and in the right places. Most DPS people, I have met, do that VERY well.....

Personally, I think we should be working together to overcome the challenges, as opposed to fighting and accusing each other, but that's me.....

Auldwulfe

Pixiepumpkin

Part of the issue is the stress of importance on doing high DPS, as if it's the only metric that means anything.

I don't have the money to buy a trial dummy. So I use the clockwork dummy (the quest one from Clockwork City). I can generally get 25k DPS on any given toon on the clockwork target dummy. The highest I achieved was 35k.

What this means in vet trials, I dont know. Never been in one since 2014 due to the mass amount of elitism. In Vet dungeons I generally hold 48 to 50% of the damage done.

But beyond all of that. Combat is much more nuanced than that. A good player imo, one who is extremely situationally aware can often have lesser DPS because of things they do within an encounter to help the group. For example, rezzing, off heals for low targets that are seemingly not getting healed, switching targets from boss to adds to get aggro off a healer (I main a hunter in WOW for over a decade and my job was always to keep aggro off healers with the use of taunts, pets, traps, etc).

You can't really assign roles to accommodate for these things that happen in fast paced combat, sometimes so fast that even voice chat is too slow to call out an issue, the only solution is to react.

So. In this example, you have a good player, probably one of the best players in the group who uses their awareness and "skill" to make up for the deficit of others, but at the end people only see "your DPS was low, sorry you have to sit this out next week".

Another part of the issue is understanding HOW to damage in ESO has always been a question for new players and even some veteran players. It's not like WOW or SWTOR where you just slot in gear that boosts your stats which give you a net DPS increase period, ESO is much more complicated than that, but it's also not easy to understand. This alone leads to frustration and I imagine a lot of people either opting out of group content, or even quitting the game.

There is also the factor that not everyone has achieved what you have achieved, and yet you forget these necessities need to happen.

For example.
Leveling Undaunted (thankfully that is easier now)
Collecting a mass amount of gear for collections and the even more massive amount of time it takes to do so
Having a dedicated crafting toon to take advantage of the Transmute station
Leveling mages and fighters guild. Fighters guild is easy, you just spam dolems. Mages no so much.

There is a lot that goes into making a "simple heavy attack build" and yet you guys leave the part out.

IMO. The damage skills in a class alone should be enough to achieve vet worthy DPS and then some, without any form of weaving whatsoever. Back bars should not be forced to be used as buff bars to achieve this dps. I would argue that bar swapping should not even be necessary. I don't like new world, but the one thing I do enjoy is that either barred weapon feels as important or as strong as the other. You can run a melee weapon on one bar for melee combat, a ranged weapon on back bar for ranged combat. But each weapon works in its own. There might be synergy between a stun from a back bar weapon to a hard hitting attack on the front bar, but there is no buff sharing.

The issue here then becomes that ESO would need to completely rewrite their combat system, but its not gonna happen.

The bottom line is that, the system is broken at its core, always has been and its doubtful it will ever get fixed. The only thing that can change is the communties mindset towards people who do less DPS, because in general its not the people who do less berating the people who do higher DPS, its the opposite. Only thing people who do lesser DPS complain about the people who do higher DPS is the fact that the higher DPS mock/exclude/berate the lower DPS folks. It's tiresome.

---

Story time.

Yesterday I was on my frost warden. A toon made to theme with frost. My build is based around a defensive DPS. So I went nord, run 5 light 2 heavy, oakensoul (for simplicity, I get tired of bar/buff swapping). I am around 20k resist and 23k ele resist or sometimes like that. I run a 5 piece, a monster 2 piece and a 4 piece with oakensoul.

I bar shalks, a self heal/DPS ability, desto staff ability, destro staff aoe, and ability aoe.

I have gone from doing 65% of the DPS in vet dungeons to doing 25% DPS in the same dungeon same build. It depends on what the other DPS does obviously. In every scenario though the content is downed with minimal to no deaths.

So. I was waiting for a queue to pop ( that after 45 mintues never did, I switched to tanking) and thought I'd do some dolems around grahtwood while I was casually farming. I helped some lowbie players and a new player who just hit like 98 CP. They sent me a tell asking me what weapon I was using because I was a beast.

And yet, you the reader know that my build is not a beast, just defensive heavy with self heals but by no means a DPS beast. And you also know that although the weapon is a part of a build, its is not the defining factor. But yet this player who made it to 60, is working on their CP did not understand that there is a lot more to the build than the weapon. They felt small and inadequate with their heal build, doing no damage and little healing an dying a lot.

You also know that to get this player up to speed is a daunting task alone with the vast amount of things you need to convey to them.


The entirety of building a character and the combat in ESO, is simply extremely convoluted. Vet players may not realize this, but that is because they have already spent years accomplishing all these tiny little things that need to be done, that ultimately coalesce and allow you to make these builds.

New players do not have this and it seems too few are willing to help. And this, is the crux of the issue.

CrashTest

Kisakee wrote: »

Of course they would but people with low damage wouldn't have a reason to complain as their damage would be enough to participate in everything and yet they would do just because other people ask for higher numbers.

There are way to many people out there who don't give a Guar about organizing raid parties themself and just want an invite and complete the raid without paying too much attention at all. It's their attitude being the problem and that's also nothing ZOS can change.

I'm a raid lead in one guild for well over a year now and every sunday i offer beginner raids for everyone who's interested. We explain mechanics, tell people what gear is actually useful to wear, give recommendations on builds and even more.
We're getting so much love for doing this and simply everyone can participate if there's enough space in the group and we always complete the raids as we have some well experienced players carrying the whole raid even if the newbies struggle.

But sometimes there's just someone being all selfish and not paying attention or having any respect for anything despite being an all new player. Those are the ones who will always complain no matter how easy they get things. They complain all the way to the point where they have everything and leave the game as it became boring.

This right here absolutely needs more attention bc it's the reality of what happens in ESO.

Auldwulfe

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Part of the issue is the stress of importance on doing high DPS, as if it's the only metric that means anything.

I don't have the money to buy a trial dummy. So I use the clockwork dummy (the quest one from Clockwork City). I can generally get 25k DPS on any given toon on the clockwork target dummy. The highest I achieved was 35k.

What this means in vet trials, I dont know. Never been in one since 2014 due to the mass amount of elitism. In Vet dungeons I generally hold 48 to 50% of the damage done.

But beyond all of that. Combat is much more nuanced than that. A good player imo, one who is extremely situationally aware can often have lesser DPS because of things they do within an encounter to help the group. For example, rezzing, off heals for low targets that are seemingly not getting healed, switching targets from boss to adds to get aggro off a healer (I main a hunter in WOW for over a decade and my job was always to keep aggro off healers with the use of taunts, pets, traps, etc).

You can't really assign roles to accommodate for these things that happen in fast paced combat, sometimes so fast that even voice chat is too slow to call out an issue, the only solution is to react.

So. In this example, you have a good player, probably one of the best players in the group who uses their awareness and "skill" to make up for the deficit of others, but at the end people only see "your DPS was low, sorry you have to sit this out next week".

Another part of the issue is understanding HOW to damage in ESO has always been a question for new players and even some veteran players. It's not like WOW or SWTOR where you just slot in gear that boosts your stats which give you a net DPS increase period, ESO is much more complicated than that, but it's also not easy to understand. This alone leads to frustration and I imagine a lot of people either opting out of group content, or even quitting the game.

There is also the factor that not everyone has achieved what you have achieved, and yet you forget these necessities need to happen.

For example.
Leveling Undaunted (thankfully that is easier now)
Collecting a mass amount of gear for collections and the even more massive amount of time it takes to do so
Having a dedicated crafting toon to take advantage of the Transmute station
Leveling mages and fighters guild. Fighters guild is easy, you just spam dolems. Mages no so much.

There is a lot that goes into making a "simple heavy attack build" and yet you guys leave the part out.

IMO. The damage skills in a class alone should be enough to achieve vet worthy DPS and then some, without any form of weaving whatsoever. Back bars should not be forced to be used as buff bars to achieve this dps. I would argue that bar swapping should not even be necessary. I don't like new world, but the one thing I do enjoy is that either barred weapon feels as important or as strong as the other. You can run a melee weapon on one bar for melee combat, a ranged weapon on back bar for ranged combat. But each weapon works in its own. There might be synergy between a stun from a back bar weapon to a hard hitting attack on the front bar, but there is no buff sharing.

The issue here then becomes that ESO would need to completely rewrite their combat system, but its not gonna happen.

The bottom line is that, the system is broken at its core, always has been and its doubtful it will ever get fixed. The only thing that can change is the communties mindset towards people who do less DPS, because in general its not the people who do less berating the people who do higher DPS, its the opposite. Only thing people who do lesser DPS complain about the people who do higher DPS is the fact that the higher DPS mock/exclude/berate the lower DPS folks. It's tiresome.

---

Story time.

Yesterday I was on my frost warden. A toon made to theme with frost. My build is based around a defensive DPS. So I went nord, run 5 light 2 heavy, oakensoul (for simplicity, I get tired of bar/buff swapping). I am around 20k resist and 23k ele resist or sometimes like that. I run a 5 piece, a monster 2 piece and a 4 piece with oakensoul.

I bar shalks, a self heal/DPS ability, desto staff ability, destro staff aoe, and ability aoe.

I have gone from doing 65% of the DPS in vet dungeons to doing 25% DPS in the same dungeon same build. It depends on what the other DPS does obviously. In every scenario though the content is downed with minimal to no deaths.

So. I was waiting for a queue to pop ( that after 45 mintues never did, I switched to tanking) and thought I'd do some dolems around grahtwood while I was casually farming. I helped some lowbie players and a new player who just hit like 98 CP. They sent me a tell asking me what weapon I was using because I was a beast.

And yet, you the reader know that my build is not a beast, just defensive heavy with self heals but by no means a DPS beast. And you also know that although the weapon is a part of a build, its is not the defining factor. But yet this player who made it to 60, is working on their CP did not understand that there is a lot more to the build than the weapon. They felt small and inadequate with their heal build, doing no damage and little healing an dying a lot.

You also know that to get this player up to speed is a daunting task alone with the vast amount of things you need to convey to them.


The entirety of building a character and the combat in ESO, is simply extremely convoluted. Vet players may not realize this, but that is because they have already spent years accomplishing all these tiny little things that need to be done, that ultimately coalesce and allow you to make these builds.

New players do not have this and it seems too few are willing to help. And this, is the crux of the issue.

The story part is extremely important - I have been here a year, and my first character was a CP 600 from questing all the regions, and trying for Cadwell's Gold before I even started learning how a lot of that interacts.... and that character has NEVER done any group content -- at this point, he is a crafter/

Even now, I am hardly an expert, but when running with some of my friends, they refer to me as the beast..... so I know that one.... they really should make it easier, and, at the very least, put it all in consistent straight forward stat numbers.

Because, right now, people are struggling ...... I craft, a LOT, for lower level players... and usually go with their requests.... and I can see how bad the educational, and explanatory parts of this game really are.

Auldwulfe

deleted221205-002626

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Sure if the game gets to easy it gets boring - just look at how absurdly easy boring and dumb overland content is, but the actual difficulty, especially in the most difficult content is just to high and the gap to big.

A game shouldnt be made in a way that only 1% will be ever able to experience the whole game and in ESOs case its not just the 1%, its partly even the 1% of the 1% and thats as unhealthy as the babymode of overland.

The gap between both should shrink and the easiest content should drastically get more difficult while the absurd difficulty of most difficult content should be lowered also there should some mid difficulty be introduced so that people can graduately progress and its possible to experience the game for everyone who puts effort into improveing. Right now most trial trifectas for example are just impossible for > 99,9% of the player, no matter how much they improve, because you will also need to get 11 other people on a very very high level to be able to do such stuff.

And the problem is not that you have to learn weaving, not that trial groups have minimum dps standard (because anyone who puts some effort into it can reach 90 or even > 100k), not most of the stuff discussed here in this topic, its just that the content is to difficult and the difficulty of content is also the reason why you have dps standards like 80k, 90k or even 100k+.

Also the 1% of the 1% just will find their enjoyment by pushing scores, as they already already and always do. Makeing content only for them is absolute nonsense.

Also I think that content should be more difficult in small scale than in big scale and not like it is now where small scale is easier and big scale gets partly absurd in difficulty. So in my opinion the dungeon difficulty is fine, because it is achiveable by almost anyone who puts in some effort while still not being braindead easy like overland content (DLC dungeons), but the trial difficulty (especially hardmodes) isnt, because its still impossible for most, no matter how much effort you put in, because coordinating 12 players and getting them on a level where they can achieve everything is just insanely more difficult than the same for a 4 player group. Also it gets absolutely stressfull on that level which kills almost every bit of fun, which shouldnt happen this drastically.

Also that only few people have managed to beat the most difficult content even after months of its realease is speaking for itself and literally has nothing to do with a good and healthy challenging difficulty...

its not too hard infact most veteran content gets crazy easy once u know how to do the dance in it. The problem is far too many people seem to over estimate theyre abilities as a cp100 and queue up for vet without ever having done normal! I see it all day theres always at least 1in group with no clue at all what theyre doing and getting both normal and vet achieves at the end!

Theres a huge gap between peoples skill IRL for various reasons and they should know theyre limitations not dumb down all content for them specifically.

Ragnarok0130

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Part of the issue is the stress of importance on doing high DPS, as if it's the only metric that means anything.

I don't have the money to buy a trial dummy. So I use the clockwork dummy (the quest one from Clockwork City). I can generally get 25k DPS on any given toon on the clockwork target dummy. The highest I achieved was 35k.

@Pixiepumpkin if you're on PCNA send me a friend request in game (same name as the forum only minus the "0" on the end) and you can use the trial dummy in my house until your sword is content. The reason DPS is so heavily relied upon as a metric is that it's the only measurable metric that DPS can provide to a raid lead or guild leader to illustrate some level of role competency. As a healer main I'm never asked for a parse because there's no way to show my HPS outside of linking a raid log (which I have been asked to do before); instead I'm generally asked to show that I have the required support sets and skills as well as clears that the group requires. Tanks seem to be in a similar situation as healers in this regard.

KilianDermoth

.

cave_troll

[snip]

If you don't want to learn a rotation and get better than please stay in normal content. For what reason would you like to clear harder content anyways? You don't need perfected gear for overland questing or dungeons.
Veteran content is for people that want to overcome hard challenges. ZoS already took away the deserved good rewards behind it and now everyone gets the skins for just completing. You only get a title in most cases.

If you have played other mmos you would know that a rotation is mandatory to endgame PvE. In Eso you just have to do a light attack between skills...

I really hope the difficulty stays the same or gets even a bit more challenging.

[edited for baiting]

BlueRaven

Luede wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.

i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?

The changes in u35 & u36 were not because of normal mode dungeons and trials. That is not the problem area.

The problem is that the very top end we’re doing a tremendous amount more damage than say the average player. And increasingly the vet hard modes were being made with those top end players in mind. They wanted, I believe, (and we can argue if they were successful or not, I feel unsuccessful) to curb the top end but leaving the rest of the player base alone.
I think they would then redo the hard modes based on this new lower top end, thus increasing the amount of people capable of doing them. While still making the vet end game interest to those top end players.

Destyran

They need to add the ninja-pulls youtube channel “guitar hero” rotations to the tutorial or dummy for people to practice