The Skill Curve is still completely Imbalanced.

Parasaurolophus

cave_troll wrote: »

[snip]

If you don't want to learn a rotation and get better than please stay in normal content. For what reason would you like to clear harder content anyways? You don't need perfected gear for overland questing or dungeons.
Veteran content is for people that want to overcome hard challenges. ZoS already took away the deserved good rewards behind it and now everyone gets the skins for just completing. You only get a title in most cases.

If you have played other mmos you would know that a rotation is mandatory to endgame PvE. In Eso you just have to do a light attack between skills...

I really hope the difficulty stays the same or gets even a bit more challenging.

This thread, like many others, just shows us that non-highskill players want to have access to harder content because normal content is too easy even for them. At the same time, high pve players want a more difficult overland.
I think ZoS have chosen a completely wrong policy to separate players by content type. It is not right.

[edited to remove quote]

AdamLAD

As in all walks of life. To succeed, you must be good enough. And if you are not good enough, then as harsh as it is, you must accept not being able to complete content. There's many things in which I'm not good enough in, even on eso. I accept this fact and move on. I do understand it's sometimes not even about learning. It could be physical limitations of yourself such as finger speed and reaction time. Unfortunately, all this is part of the equation that makes up if you are good enough or not.

Pixiepumpkin

KilianDermoth wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin
What you wrote just makes no sense at all. You wrote how you would like it to be, you painted a pink fluffy dream with your words, but what you write is eons from the truth.

This was uncalled for. Nothing I have said is "how I want it to be" and calling it a "pink fluffy dream" is dismissive of my post.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

So you want us to tell that we should think about our beginning times and then what, take people who even havent farmed complete sets or have proper builds yet? You even complain that there is a lot into makeing a simple heavy attack build but what is the point you want to tell us? That we should just take anyone into vet raids or even hardmodes who even doesnt have a proper geared build, while those heavy attack builds even rely on some of the easiest and fastest to farm sets (from easy base game dungeons like wayrest which is barely more difficult than fungal ghroto I), besides oakensoul which might take the most time to farm?

No, the point here is that the excuses in this thread of "you can do 80k DPS with a heavy attack build" dismiss everything it takes to get that heavy attack build. It's not as easy to accomplish as its made out to be.

Sergean'ts Mail is a heavy set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sergeant's+Mail+Set

Storm Master is a medium set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Storm+Master+Set

Both are going to require a metric ton of runs due to RNG to ensure you get the proper weapons.
The build will require a full crafter to take advantage of transmute station for ring/neck on top of the oakensoul

Most guides also require level 10 mage guild

Transmute crystals take FOREVER to farm, even doing daily randoms especially knowing that the player is not going to be vet ready, and definitely not hard mode ready unless they are being carried. Which some people will do, most will not.

Bottom line is that acquiring these "easy 80 one button builds" is not even as remotely easy as promoted. So, its not quite the solution it's made out to be.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Seriously? Whom shall this help. This will yield only in absolute catastrophic raids where you probably wipe for hours even at the first boss, everyone gets pissed some might start accusing each other and you will have to disband the group. Sounds really great, because THIS is the reality if you do a raid with plenty people in the most difficult content that even couldnt farm 2 complete sets, yet...

The idea that the people have not been farming their bottoms off for gear is a fallacy. They might not know about this magical 80 heavy attack build. Not everyone watches twitch, or you tube streamers. Not everyone knows about lucky ghost, deltia, minotaur, xynode, etc etc etc. And frankly, even many of those builds are hard to follow and most of the destroy class identity.

But just because someone has not farmed two specfic sets (I have played since 2014 and I STILL do not have a full set from either dungeon yet to help with transmute cost) does not mean they have not been farming their bottoms off.

You are approaching this from someone who has been playing for years, again as I stated your perspective, not from the perspective of a new player. And this issue MUST be addressed from the perspective of a new player.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

For normal trials this might be ok, even its not that fun there if the whole trial group does for example 80k DPS, been there (as tank), didnt enjoy it at all. And the people even had complete sets...

Which is why it should be made easier to DPS. As I stated. Someone should be able to grab two sets of gear that LOOK like they will work togther (yet often do not), put some of their class spells on the bar and be able to compete with either a rotation based on dots or based on a spammable. Weaving, not back bar buffing should be a factor. This is where most people get lost and why most classes all feel the same. Back bar buffing, front bar aoe, shield, spam, passive (mage light) etc etc.

this should change.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Btw. when I when I was a beginner I knew that I should stay away from (vet) trials until I had at least a proper build, even I started very early doing vet dungeons with low 20-25k (real) DPS.

And again, the heart of the issue. What is a "proper build" there is ZERO documentation from ZOS in game or outside of game that tells a player what a "proper build" is. Making a "proper build" is not even remotely intuitive and again, this is part of the issue.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

This was mostly because I was playing with firends who eagerly wanted to try doing vet content (I was the one with the lowest level at that time). But I even farmed 3 complete sets somewhere between CP 100 and CP 160 and refarmed them later after CP 160. Its crazy to think that anyone just should be able to directly go to the most difficult content in random white gear...

I never stated that a fresh player should be able to run the most difficult gear, I am reading over my post now on a second monitor and not seeing where I stated that.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Also your description of a tanky DD just sounds like a solo build where you just didnt care about group play at all and dont understand how roles in group play play together...

It is a solo build, and I was doing solo content in the world except for the dolem which is where I met the low level player and the 98 CP player. It's not the same build I tank with, or DPS with (remember, the armory exists).

the point in that story was the fact I WAS using a solo/not good DPS build and yet the new player, who had already reached 60 and was grinding CP thought I was a beast mode build. The point here is to showcase the disparity between what a new player sees from their POV and what veteran "you must have 120k DPS" players see from their POV.

NOWHERE was my build meant to "not care about group play".

KilianDermoth wrote: »

I could also tell plenty of storys of such DDs in PUGs and how they were in almost any case absolutely useless and sometimes even made the live for anyone else more difficult, like sword and board or frost staff DDs who dont get that they taunt and cause adds to run amok. I even have seen how such DDs even caused taunt immunity at bosses in trials and made the whole trial wipe besides themselves and tanks. Some even felt "strong" because they died last while they were themselves the root cause for the wipe...

And what did you do to help them? Did you spend a hour of your day explaining to them how things work? What they could have done to made the encounter better?

For example. I was tanking vet Tempest runs tonight. Spamming the instance, run after run after run farming weapons. I had countless players wiping on last boss and I calmly explained in every group how the boss mechanics work and how they can easily navigate the encounter.

Is this something you do to help other players on a consistent basis?

KilianDermoth wrote: »

And to the trial dummy problem. You dont have to get one yourself. Just join an at least medium sized guilds (you have 5 slots!) and the chances are almost 100% that there is someone who has such a trial dummy or even the guild has a guild hall with such a dummy. And even if that isnt the case, you could just ask in zone chat if someone has such a dummy and if you could use it. Or there is even an Addon for beam me up where you can port to peoples houses with some public accessible houses you could use even if you dont know the person (dont remember the name of the addon yet).

I am in 4 trade guilds. They have some trial dummies, not sure which ones though, there seem to be like 5 kind.

But regardless, what does a trial dummy do to prep someone for a vet encounter? I would argue ZERO. You don't need a dummy to DPS well, you need a "proper gear set" like you said, except no one can explain what that is (part of the issue as I have described), and you need experience in these trials to learn the encounters. You tube is great, not everyone uses it though, and most learn from doing and having things explained.

But then again, "must do 110k DPS" players rarely take these people along to help them.

So we have now gone full circle and are back at the end of my first post.


"and it seems too few are willing to help. And this, is the crux of the issue. "

Pixiepumpkin

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Part of the issue is the stress of importance on doing high DPS, as if it's the only metric that means anything.

I don't have the money to buy a trial dummy. So I use the clockwork dummy (the quest one from Clockwork City). I can generally get 25k DPS on any given toon on the clockwork target dummy. The highest I achieved was 35k.

@Pixiepumpkin if you're on PCNA send me a friend request in game (same name as the forum only minus the "0" on the end) and you can use the trial dummy in my house until your sword is content. The reason DPS is so heavily relied upon as a metric is that it's the only measurable metric that DPS can provide to a raid lead or guild leader to illustrate some level of role competency. As a healer main I'm never asked for a parse because there's no way to show my HPS outside of linking a raid log (which I have been asked to do before); instead I'm generally asked to show that I have the required support sets and skills as well as clears that the group requires. Tanks seem to be in a similar situation as healers in this regard.

thank you, I have only been back for a few weeks (I quit before high isle was released...and the past three weeks reminded me of why).

I appreciate the offer, but I see no reason to continue with the game. Seems like most of the community has gotten worse. You don't even want to know about what I saw today in zone chat..amazing the kind of commentary I saw is allowed in game.

I do appreciate it though!

Kisakee

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin
What you wrote just makes no sense at all. You wrote how you would like it to be, you painted a pink fluffy dream with your words, but what you write is eons from the truth.

This was uncalled for. Nothing I have said is "how I want it to be" and calling it a "pink fluffy dream" is dismissive of my post.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

So you want us to tell that we should think about our beginning times and then what, take people who even havent farmed complete sets or have proper builds yet? You even complain that there is a lot into makeing a simple heavy attack build but what is the point you want to tell us? That we should just take anyone into vet raids or even hardmodes who even doesnt have a proper geared build, while those heavy attack builds even rely on some of the easiest and fastest to farm sets (from easy base game dungeons like wayrest which is barely more difficult than fungal ghroto I), besides oakensoul which might take the most time to farm?

No, the point here is that the excuses in this thread of "you can do 80k DPS with a heavy attack build" dismiss everything it takes to get that heavy attack build. It's not as easy to accomplish as its made out to be.

Sergean'ts Mail is a heavy set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sergeant's+Mail+Set

Storm Master is a medium set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Storm+Master+Set

Both are going to require a metric ton of runs due to RNG to ensure you get the proper weapons.
The build will require a full crafter to take advantage of transmute station for ring/neck on top of the oakensoul

Most guides also require level 10 mage guild

Transmute crystals take FOREVER to farm, even doing daily randoms especially knowing that the player is not going to be vet ready, and definitely not hard mode ready unless they are being carried. Which some people will do, most will not.

Bottom line is that acquiring these "easy 80 one button builds" is not even as remotely easy as promoted. So, its not quite the solution it's made out to be.

This is an MMO. MMO's are meant to be played over a long time. You need at least 6 months to achieve a level of what is going on and you can easily use this time to farm sets, transmute stones and level your crafting skills. I did exactly this and have been fully prepared when i started raiding even though i started from scratch half a year ago with no knowledge whatsoever. You just need the will to learn and do preparations.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Someone should be able to grab two sets of gear that LOOK like they will work togther (yet often do not), put some of their class spells on the bar and be able to compete with either a rotation based on dots or based on a spammable.

No, nobody should be able to compete with so little effort in the hardest content of the game. You basically suggest nerfing everything to Overland difficulty. You may earn a "participation ribbon" with that but you should never get the best rewards for just button smashing.

Pixiepumpkin

Kisakee wrote: »

This is an MMO. MMO's are meant to be played over a long time. You need at least 6 months to achieve a level of what is going on and you can easily use this time to farm sets, transmute stones and level your crafting skills. I did exactly this and have been fully prepared when i started raiding even though i started from scratch half a year ago with no knowledge whatsoever. You just need the will to learn and do preparations.

I am aware of this, been playing MMORPG's since 2004 with wow. But 6 months is actually completely unrealistic in most MMORPG's, in fact I do not recall spending that much time grinding in any given patch for a new wow raid, or in SWTOR, or in GW2, or in Warhammer Online, or even in New World which is a grind behind a grind.

Kisakee wrote: »

No, nobody should be able to compete with so little effort in the hardest content of the game. You basically suggest nerfing everything to Overland difficulty. You may earn a "participation ribbon" with that but you should never get the best rewards for just button smashing.

No, that is not what I am asking.


In most other mmorpgs, you get a piece of gear, you see your stats go up and 99% of the time that results in an increase in DPS. ESO does not work this way due to a magical system where unseemingly unpairable sets work wonders, and sets that seem to pair are trash.

For example. A Dragonknight build with 5x Burning spellweave, 2x grothdar, 4x Elf bane (jewels and Weapons transmuted, weapon golded). Looks good on paper. I mean everything synergises.

Yet, I can't pull over 15k on my clockwork target dummy using the standard back bar infused spell power buff, front bar dots, spammable and weaving.

On my Frost warden build, I pull 35k using less buttons and a less than optimized build.

and yes I know how to allocate CP based on skills etc.

This is my point. Somethings do not look like they work, but work amazingly well. Others that look like they work, do not.

ZOS needs to make this game easier to understand how to build, because its literal magic to new players.

Heelie

I think it's much the other way around. A player only doing heavy attacks with the Oaken Soul ring keeping up at most two damage over time abilities. Can do almost as much damage as a player with a two bar build who spent much longer farming gear, practicing and often also use more expensive consumables. It’s basically within one standard deviation of crit chance, or a very small margin of buff uptimes that makes the difference, I don’t see how that is actually fair. in groups with very high uptimes the difference is larger, but for the average group it's pretty accurate.

I don’t think you should just create a character and then play at a “high lvl” . I think the most difficult content should be hard locked behind practice and effort, because there needs to be an end game. If everyone could get the title “Godslayer” then no one outside of a few achievement hunters would actually progress for it. The exclusivity is what sells it. ESO has very very very very very very few cosmetics and titles locked behind veteran content. ESO currently has more than 10.000 mounts, titles and cosmetics in the crown store and non veteran content. The total you can get from veteran achievements is less than 100. This is not taking into account that there are often better looking versions of the same cosmetics in the crown store.

ESO is basically the Planet Fitness of MMOs, everything is catered towards a casual audience. And any player who might actually try and progress harder content is often ostracized by his peers. I personally was kicked from the first guild I ever joined in ESO because the GM felt that my score notifications might make other players in the guild uncomfortable or feel less than equal, despite the fact that I had been a member since I was lvl 15. Players are served pizza every month through events specifically catered towards the casual player base, with the exception that sometimes there is double loot in trials. 99% of changes in ESO are catered towards the casual player. Global Achievements killed a tonne of raiding guilds as it made progressing trifecta or even veteran clears meaningless to people who had one it once on another character. The sticker book, but more specifically the curated loot system made farming gear very awkward because your group mates will never drop the good loot that you need if they already have it. And in cloudrest I drop a gold ring for +3 but I can’t reconstruct another (gold) one to complete my set? All of these issues were addressed already on the PTS but ignored by the dev team.

My last point is that I think the difficulty of “end game” is heavily exaggerated. I always found it funny how people mention being dissabled / having a handicap as the reason that they can’t participate in the end game. As a person with irreparable nerve damage in my dominant hand I found means to still play, (buying a Razor Naga and playing with just my left hand). I know people working full time jobs with families that only “raid log” during the week and play at most 4 hours outside of that. I think it’s just a matter of dedication and time management more than anything else. You put in the effort to actually download and install the best and most relevant addons, you spend the time to actually setting them up in a meaningful way. you spend the time to actually study a build, understanding penetration and crit dmg caps. Seeking out help frem entry level guilds instead of trying to PUG your way through everything. There are free and good resources for learning everything about eso end game be it on youtube discord etc. I know people that played or still play end game in pretty much every life situation possible be it 16 or 60 years old, working or unemployed, with or without family. dissabled / not. Nothing outside of effort and the right help stops you from doing any achievement or amount of dummy dps in this game. The restriction is 100% on you and your effort alone. This is also the reason I dislike the Oaken Soul ring because it encourages not doing these things and just taking the easiest path.

KilianDermoth

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

No, the point here is that the excuses in this thread of "you can do 80k DPS with a heavy attack build" dismiss everything it takes to get that heavy attack build. It's not as easy to accomplish as its made out to be.

Sergean'ts Mail is a heavy set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sergeant's+Mail+Set

Storm Master is a medium set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Storm+Master+Set

Both are going to require a metric ton of runs due to RNG to ensure you get the proper weapons.
The build will require a full crafter to take advantage of transmute station for ring/neck on top of the oakensoul

Yeah 2 of the easiest dungeons in the game, especially wayrest sewers. 2 of the easiest obtainable sets. Easier than literally almost any other dungeon set (especially those from DLC dungeons). Easier than any trial gear. Easier than any PVP gear. About as easy as overland sets (if you farm them yourself), because buying is no option for newcomers, they have literally no gold to buy such stuff and probably are faster farming dungeons (on normal) than farming gold (especially because they dont know how to farm big numbers of gold at the beginning and this probally needs more preparation to do than just farming 2 sets in easy dungeons).

The only sets that are easier than that to gain are craftable sets but only if you have a friend who can craft them for you, otherwise you had to level up all crafting by yourself first, which will for beginners take much more time than doing an easy normal dungeon a few times over and over again.

So there are almost no other easier obtainable sets.

So if its to much to ask beginners to farm at least this (2 of the easiest and fastest to get) sets, it is to much to farm any other sets, too. That means you are suggesting that we should take people into vet trials which even werent able to farm 2 complete sets, because literally almost another other set will be more difficult to acquire and because its to harsh to require this from beginners...

Yeah thats a pink fluffy dream that has nothing to do with reality...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Most guides also require level 10 mage guild

Erm, no? What for? The ulti? Most classes have better ultis than the mages guild ulti which is often mediocre at best. And even if your class lacks a strong(er) ulti there is the Destro and Fighters guild ulti that are better than the mages guild ulti. For a DD usually its sufficient to unlock mages guild to be able to slot Mages light and even this isnt necessary for some classes because they have this buff build into their class toolkit already. The passives help a bit (especially Mag Recovery) but are so tiny that they dont make or break a build and especially on a heavy attack build they are almost completely useless.

So only bad guides might require level 10 mages guild and I really dont know from where you have this information at all...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Transmute crystals take FOREVER to farm, even doing daily randoms especially knowing that the player is not going to be vet ready, and definitely not hard mode ready unless they are being carried. Which some people will do, most will not.

Yeah and what is the solution? Ignore all that and take people without proper complete sets, without proper traits and probally without unlocked skills, enhancements, CPs, food and so on into vet trials or even HM trials and dungeons and carry them?

Important question: Why!?

Transfered to real world this would mean that a child just can get to you and say: "built me a house, give me a diploma, give me plenty money, give me a wife / husband, give me everything, just because I am new and couldnt get it myself, NOW!".

I think you would tell that child that its crazy and ignore it and this is the same level of crazyness...

And if you really want that a newcommer shall be able to do everything just from the beginning and has everything right from the beginning then ZOS is the one you should ask to change the game completely and not players, who play the game for fun / for themselves and not to be servants for beginners...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The idea that the people have not been farming their bottoms off for gear is a fallacy. They might not know about this magical 80 heavy attack build. Not everyone watches twitch, or you tube streamers. Not everyone knows about lucky ghost, deltia, minotaur, xynode, etc etc etc. And frankly, even many of those builds are hard to follow and most of the destroy class identity.

Sure but what is the conclusion of this? That we shall ignore that they wont be any useful in a trial, even hindering, maybe causing a failed run (especially if several of such beginners are taken into a vet trial or dungeon / trial hardmode)?

Again: Why!? I often halp new players but I am not a servant for new players to make it as effortless for them as possible and will invest all my free time only to serve new players who even arent interested to look up the basics.

Help is a priveleg not a right! But lately I have seen plenty newcomers who thinks the other way around and that is exactly when I stop to help...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

You are approaching this from someone who has been playing for years, again as I stated your perspective, not from the perspective of a new player. And this issue MUST be addressed from the perspective of a new player.

I am approaching this from both sides. But I approach it realistically.

I exactly know how it is to be new and I just tell you that I didnt expect veteran players to hand out everything and carry me through vDSA HM or even Trifecta runs just at Day 1, also not on Day 2 even not a year later. I knew that I wasnt ready for such stuff and had to improve my build, my rotation and all the other stuff. Btw. while doing so there was plenty other content, like dungeons on normal, dungeons on vet, solo arenas, then normal trials and very late veteran trials.

That is how the game is meant to be played and not being carried through the most difficult content in your very first days of play. I even probaly had stoped playing this game if that happend to me, because I had missed out all the other content and it would quickly get boring.

Its not me who looks at this from a veteran perspective. Its you who has absolutely no realistic view on the whole topic.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

And again, the heart of the issue. What is a "proper build" there is ZERO documentation from ZOS in game or outside of game that tells a player what a "proper build" is. Making a "proper build" is not even remotely intuitive and again, this is part of the issue.

True but this is not a (veteran) player / raid lead issue primarily. Its a game design issue. Another topic...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I never stated that a fresh player should be able to run the most difficult gear, I am reading over my post now on a second monitor and not seeing where I stated that.

You literally say (in your last 2 posts) that veteran players should look at new players how its to hard for them to get gear, to get transmute crystals, to get skills and so in a discussion about requirements for some of the most difficult endgame / veteran content in the game.

So what else do you want to tell? The only 2 things that would make sense, is that you want that absolute beginners who even cant farm 2 of the easiest sets should get a chance or you are completely off topic...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

And what did you do to help them? Did you spend a hour of your day explaining to them how things work? What they could have done to made the encounter better?

For example. I was tanking vet Tempest runs tonight. Spamming the instance, run after run after run farming weapons. I had countless players wiping on last boss and I calmly explained in every group how the boss mechanics work and how they can easily navigate the encounter.

Is this something you do to help other players on a consistent basis?

Not in those situations I described, because they were farm runs where we just took some randoms from craglorm (trial) or in other situations I had this in some daily random dungeons.

Yes I did already several time spent a hour or sometimes even more to explain them plenty stuff, because I was in the mood, a few times to strangers (often met in overland) or often to guldies.

Also I already explained several times dungeons mechs or even kept tanking in vet DLC dungeons with 20k group dps groups and was often patient. But I dont do that always, for example if I only have half an hour time to play, I wont use all the time for explaining and straight leave. Also and thats the important part: I dont have to to do it always, because I am also a player seeking for fun and if its no fun at all anymore, I am out.

As already said earlier. Help is a privileg not a right and veteran players arent there to be servants for beginners, they are also players, players that usually play to have fun and not to work as a servant.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

But regardless, what does a trial dummy do to prep someone for a vet encounter? I would argue ZERO. You don't need a dummy to DPS well, you need a "proper gear set" like you said, except no one can explain what that is (part of the issue as I have described), and you need experience in these trials to learn the encounters. You tube is great, not everyone uses it though, and most learn from doing and having things explained.

It does help a lot.

First you can see where you are.

20k DPS on a trial dummy => Maybe lets completely overthink the whole build and playstyle (at least if you want to be a damage dealer).
40k DPS on a trial dummy => Not that great but at least some stuff is done right.
60k DPS => Ok a good starting point, lets work on it.
80k DPS => Ok already ready for plenty of difficult content but still some room for improvement.
100k+ DPS => Ok there is always room to improve but lets do the most difficult content.
120k+ DPS => Elite, lets take a nap.

Second you can see how different stuff affects damage.

How (different) rotations affect damage.
Which skills affect damage how.
How big the impact of several buffs is.
If skill A or B is better.
How well a set performs.
If set A or B is better.
And so on...

Third: Learn how to DPS.

Fourth: Provide a (unified, raid relevant!) benchmark for raid leads so that they can see at which level roughly you are.

Fifth doing this with combat metrics allows people to look at your uptimes, damage, skills, stats, gear and help you to improve all those aspects.

Sixth: Train your / a new rotation or train weaving, in other words improve.

Sure a trial trainings dummy isnt mandatory for high / good damage because it wont do anything mid fight. But the chances that someone who never used a trainings dummy to improve / train / test stuff has a non optimal build, a bad rotation, bad damage are astronomically high. So the chances that someone who never used such a damage does good damage are astronomically small, almost non existent. Except if you have done plenty, much more time consuming and unreliable tests / trainings in real content.

Its like saying you dont necessary need a piano to be a great pianist. Somehow thats true, one of the biggest musicians (maybe it was beethoven?) even had no real piano as a child and used drawn keys on the ground (stars?). But the chances that someone gets a great musicians without ever using a piano are almost non existend.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

But then again, "must do 110k DPS" players rarely take these people along to help them.

The topic of this thread was that some guilds increased requirements to 90k DPS where they had 80k DPS before, since the dummy got several buffs like elemental catalysator which gives 15% crit damage (with 66% crit chance) this is a direct damage increase of 9,9% (if you arent overcapping) to damage as also other buffs like more pen, so that you can ditch pen (and crit damage if you are overcapping) for more crit chance and spell damage for example to gain even more damage than 10%.

So elemental catalysator alone is almost a 10% increase of the DPS number the dummy shows. So a build that did 80k before, is exactly showing 80k * 1,1 (10% extra) = 88k DPS on the new dummy with the elemental catalysator buff alone without even considering the pen buff for example.

So the increased 90k DPS requirement now is basically the same requirement as 80k before the patch, its maybe even lower.

Because some stuff also got nerft (like some class skills and for example light attack weaving which has a much smaller impact now than back then) it might be more difficult for some people (who relied on the nerft stuff like good light attack weaving) to reach 90k DPS while they were close to reach 80k DPS before. But thats because their build got nerft, while the requirement is basically the same or even lower (because there are more buffs on the dummy than just elemental catalysator).

Just basic math, some people didnt got yet. Also this exact situation was predicted by all the veteran players. So ZOS is to blame not raid leads who want 90k dummy parses now (because its the same as 80k before the patch). So basically OP is barking at the wrong tree here as all the people talking about how to treat newcommers.

The topic was not about 110k DPS requirements, even not 100k DPS requirements and not really about helping newcomers and not about elitism, veteran player vs. newcomers or other of such topics the thread evolved to because of such responses like yours...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

"and it seems too few are willing to help. And this, is the crux of the issue. "

Not its not (the issues are mainly game design things) also its even not the topic of the thread...

Hegron

Sarannah wrote: »

Can't believe so many players are actually trying to defend having to LEARN a rotation, and defend having to spend hours and hours on a dummy trying to make a rotation work. This is a game, there shouldn't be this much learning. A game is for fun.

I like to learn.

KilianDermoth

Yeah me too and for me it was one of the most fun factors of the game to learn all that stuff as a beginner.

Kisakee

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

For example. A Dragonknight build with 5x Burning spellweave, 2x grothdar, 4x Elf bane (jewels and Weapons transmuted, weapon golded). Looks good on paper. I mean everything synergises.

Yet, I can't pull over 15k on my clockwork target dummy using the standard back bar infused spell power buff, front bar dots, spammable and weaving.

On my Frost warden build, I pull 35k using less buttons and a less than optimized build.

and yes I know how to allocate CP based on skills etc.

This is my point. Somethings do not look like they work, but work amazingly well. Others that look like they work, do not.

You may provide some CMX screenshots so people can actually help you out. There are probably a lot of flaws in your current build.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ZOS needs to make this game easier to understand how to build, because its literal magic to new players.

No they don't. It's part of the fun figuring things out and to communicate with other peoples to exchange informations is crucial for a MMO.

Bouldercleave

I've read a lot of arguments here about learning rotations vs it's a game and we're here to have fun, and I think this is a large part of the problem.

To spend a little bit time and LEARN a rotation is very different than spending hours in front of a practice dummy PERFECTING timing, rotations, weaving, etc.

A decent analogy is that I learned how to play golf, but I'm no Tiger Woods. I haven't spent the time of effort to become Tiger Woods, so why should I think that I am entitled to compete on the same level as him, or reap the same rewards? And furthermore, even if I had put in the time and effort who is to say that I would EVER be on that level?

Yes, this is just a game - but some people have invested crazy amounts of time, effort, money, etc. (more than I ever will) to put themselves at a level of play that I simply will never achieve. Even if I did put in that much of my personal resources, would I reach their level of skill - I think not. I'm just never gonna be THAT good and I can accept that.

There are parts of this game that I will never see because I will never be on the level of play to see them. I'm ok with that.



The skill curve is people. I will say it again. The skill curve is people. You can make all the adjustments, balances, nerfs, buffs that you want, and at the end of the day there will still be the elites and the slogs. Good luck.

ThePlayer

By now the classes are all the same, where would this balance be?
I advise you to go on YouTube and look for the builds (which are all the same for magicka and stamina) and make them the same, you don't need the perfect sets.
I give you a suggestion farm: Pillar of Nirn(dungeon normal), Zaan (dungeon vet), Relequen (trial normal) and you're done, then look for a dummy and you will do at least 70k with your eyes closed and even using the bow with your magicka pg ....thanks ZOS for this variety

BlueRaven

Kisakee wrote: »

No they don't. It's part of the fun figuring things out and to communicate with other peoples to exchange informations is crucial for a MMO.

To me it's not that fun.

Example: Here are the buffs that Oakensoul gives:

Empower
Major Brutality
Major Prophecy
Major Resolve
Major Savagery
Major Sorcery
Minor Aegis
Minor Berserk
Minor Courage
Minor Endurance
Minor Force
Minor Fortitude
Minor Heroism
Minor Intellect
Minor Mending
Minor Protection
Minor Slayer

Honestly, I don't really know what half of these mean without having to look it up.

Which affects critical damage? Was it Empower, Brutality, or was it Savagery? Slayer maybe?

If Eso was to just combine a few of them and cut down on the terminology it would be a good start.

Kisakee

BlueRaven wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

No they don't. It's part of the fun figuring things out and to communicate with other peoples to exchange informations is crucial for a MMO.

To me it's not that fun.

Example: Here are the buffs that Oakensoul gives:

Empower
Major Brutality
Major Prophecy
Major Resolve
Major Savagery
Major Sorcery
Minor Aegis
Minor Berserk
Minor Courage
Minor Endurance
Minor Force
Minor Fortitude
Minor Heroism
Minor Intellect
Minor Mending
Minor Protection
Minor Slayer

Honestly, I don't really know what half of these mean without having to look it up.

Which affects critical damage? Was it Empower, Brutality, or was it Savagery? Slayer maybe?

If Eso was to just combine a few of them and cut down on the terminology it would be a good start.

And i can tell what every of this buffs is doing without looking it up. Learning buffs is just one very minor part of everything and i like learning. So what's your point? Just because you dislike it doesn't mean anyone dislikes it.

BlueRaven

Kisakee wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

No they don't. It's part of the fun figuring things out and to communicate with other peoples to exchange informations is crucial for a MMO.

To me it's not that fun.

Example: Here are the buffs that Oakensoul gives:

Empower
Major Brutality
Major Prophecy
Major Resolve
Major Savagery
Major Sorcery
Minor Aegis
Minor Berserk
Minor Courage
Minor Endurance
Minor Force
Minor Fortitude
Minor Heroism
Minor Intellect
Minor Mending
Minor Protection
Minor Slayer

Honestly, I don't really know what half of these mean without having to look it up.

Which affects critical damage? Was it Empower, Brutality, or was it Savagery? Slayer maybe?

If Eso was to just combine a few of them and cut down on the terminology it would be a good start.

And i can tell what every of this buffs is doing without looking it up. Learning buffs is just one very minor part of everything and i like learning. So what's your point? Just because you dislike it doesn't mean anyone dislikes it.

You said...

Kisakee wrote: »

No they don't. It's part of the fun figuring things out and to communicate with other peoples to exchange informations is crucial for a MMO.

Then I said...

"To me it's not that fun."

You were the one who spoke like everyone likes this sort of thing. That "It's part of the fun figuring things out and to communicate with other peoples to exchange informations is crucial for a MMO." is some sort of universal truth (it is not, particularly when many people play this game solo). And I qualified my answer about me and my preferences.

I like things that are clearly labeled. I don't want to consult the internet to figure out what "Aegis" does for my build. It is vague term that sounds cool, but does not explain anything. And I feel this is just a needless barrier for people to climb over when trying to improve their build.

Maybe if the game had some mouse over explanation about what it does. Maybe on the stats page it can clearly show how the various bonuses are affecting the base stats. Something.

If I go and get my car fixed and they say my serpentine belt needs replacing, and I ask what that is. I don't want the answer to be to "Ask your neighbors, it's part of the fun figuring things out and to communicate with other people." No. I want to know what it does immediately.

Maybe it is just me, but if an affect is working on my build, I want a better answer than for the game to go. "Don't ask me, why not guess?! Part of the fun is not immediately knowing." And if zos wants the average player to have better dps, I feel, one of the ways to facilitate this is by making build terminology clearer.

HappyTheCamper

I don’t have a problem with skill caps. For top-end trifectas and score pushing, there should be a skill threshold to meet.

Having said that, they need to have new way of measuring skill. Target Dummies are silly. They do not replicate content. Especially because when people recommend suggestions to improve numbers it’s sometimes stuff like “use this specific food” or “swaps to this specific skill only suited for dummy humping”, and “don’t parse in a house with furniture” or “you need to only run the skeleton polymorph when parsing”, or “make sure you stand at the side of the dummy to maximize hits.” Hell before the trial dummy people would literally have to stand by you and spam healing orbs just to complete an accurate parse.

[snip]

Target dummies are only truly relevant in 3 situations:
1. PTS people testing changes and builds.
2. Content creators who make builds for community (and maybe people practicing them as a result)
3. Theory crafters who are building from scratch.

That is it. Period. Anything beyond that is a pissing contest.

And I’ll admit while I’m good enough to beat vet content, I’ve backed out from parsing for good. I don’t like it, and it gives me hand cramps/swollen fingers. I’ve conquered enough content in ESO without ever having to share my parse. If I go to do content and they ask for a parse I politely bow out of content and admit I’m a fault, and I have not problem doing it. No hate toward the other people, more power to those that can do it! I respect those that can do it, but it’s not for me.

[edited for baiting]

Zezin

Dang you all are going wild in here lol, just chill out friends or Kevin's gonna bring the hammer out haha.

As for the skill curve issue, there's no point in this discussion, it's not going away unless you turn the game into an auto play mobile game.

Marto

ESO disproportionally rewards mechanical skill.

It's fine for more skilled players to be rewarded with more damage. But only to a point.
It's fine for less skilled players to be "punished" with less damage. But only to a point.

Would it be fair for your coworker who works 10% faster than you to be paid 500% higher wages? Definitely not.

All RPGs reward players for engaging with a variety of aspects in the game. Character stats, skill point allocation, equipment, mechanical skill, tactics, strategy. They all contribute to what you may call your "Player Power".

The problem with ESO's power curve is that the percentage of that power that's granted by mechanical skill is way too high.

If two players have the same stats, same skills, same rotation, same equipment, equally fast reflexes, equally coordinated groups, but one of them weaves perfectly and the other doesn't., the one with better weaving will deal 50-100% more damage.

That's not right. That's not fair, not accessible, and doesn't make for very good game design.

KilianDermoth

Marto wrote: »

If two players have the same stats, same skills, same rotation, same equipment, equally fast reflexes, equally coordinated groups, but one of them weaves perfectly and the other doesn't., the one with better weaving will deal 50-100% more damage.

All right what you said, but this point is just absolutely not true. Weaving doesnt have such a big impact (anymore). It might had an impact of 50%, and I even doubt that it ever made up 50% of damage (for sure never 100% of damage) before patch 35 on nightblades with gear that only relied completely on light attacks. So a special build to make weaving look that powerful might perform really bad without weaving. But if you dont use stuff like nightblades, kjalnar, kinras, relequen, (pre patch 35) mealstrom staff which by far are (all!) not necessary to get high damage and in many cases are even inferior to alternative choices, then the maximum impact is about 30% between weaving and not weaving at all. Far less if you at least try and are even bad at it.

For example:
Relequen: Just use Siroria, Bahsei, Coral Riptide, all of them dont need any weaving and especially Bahsei (even in the nerft version) is still potentially stronger than Relequen in literally any fight and in fights where you have Adds, Relequen is noticeably worse than any of that options, its even worse than Yandir in this situations! And Yandir for example doesnt need any weaving and is playable by literally anyone, its weaker than the strongest options but its not weak!

Kjalnar: Stormfist for example does more damage than Kjalnar and requires 0 weaving = without weaving Stormfist does still the same amount while Kjalnar does 0 damage. With weaving Kjalnar does good damage, Stormfist still often does more damage (with some exceptions). So if you want to have high damage, choose Stormfist no matter if you are good or bad at weaving. If you want to make weaving look necessary without really gaining much more damage then choose kjalnar.

Kinras: Just use Pillars of Nirn. Even if you play Kinras perfectly (perfect weaving) and even if there is no Sorc in the group, the difference between Kinras and Pillar of Nirn is probablly only 1, maybe 2% total damage (so for a 100k parse its probably only 1k or 2k DPS difference in the most optimal situation). But if you fail a few times or there are Sorcs in the group you would even do less damage with Kinras no matter how good you weave.
=> You might again even do better without the set that requires perfect weaving...

Elemental Weapon (skill): does exactly the same amount of damage as literally any other standard spammable + that tiny little proc + applying status effects on every second cast. But look at Force Pulse for example, same amount of damage and similar chance to Proc status effects because you have 3 chances every cast + Ancient knowledge which increases the chance to apply status effects by 100% which yields in roughly 50% chance to apply a status effect every cast => you almost apply a status effect every second cast. So, both skills do nearly the same (single target damage) while one needs perfect weaving and the other works without weaving. The only difference is the Proc of elemental weapon (every 5th cast for a tiny bit of damage) vs. the proc of Force Pulse to hit 2 other targets (and triple the damage if that happens!) So in many situations (cleave) Force Pulse might even end up being about 2x as strong as elemental weapon, without the need for any weaving and if you miss light attacks a few times (and even the best do sometimes) then force pulse will be at least as strong or stronger in any case no matter if pure single target or cleave...

Weaving might help on any level (low damage and high damage) to increase your damage but for people who struggle to reach 80k dps for example, weaving is often the least problem, because its usually only about up to 30% if you dont explicitly choose sets / skills / classes that rely on weaving! But why should anyone choose such sets / skills / classes if he dont want to learn perfect weaving, especially when those often arent even better!?

Its like saying: "I hate eating tomatoes" but putting tomatoes in any meal you eat...

Rotation has often a much bigger impact. Many just randomly smash buttons. Just look at how players parse with low damage, they often forget recasting important buffs, sometimes even have less than 50% uptime of them (if they cast them at all...). Thats what is makeing one of the biggest differences in damage or alternatively cast DoTs / Buffs twice in a row or recast them while they still had about 10 seconds left, wasteing a whole GCD (= 1 sec) where they could cast a spammable that does maybe 70-100k damage by its own (on a proper build). If that happens once every 10 seconds this are 7-10k less DPS. If that happens twice every 10 seconds this are already 14-20k less total DPS...

Then there is the group that wants to be an absolut tanky heal DD which just literally have crappy stats, which even the best players wouldnt be able to fix by weaving and executeing a rotation properly. And in my experience helping new players this thing is pretty common on low DPS players. Just do a random vet run, wait until you get a low DPS player, start the log, look at what gear they wear and you will realize that it wont be possible to ever reach good damage with such a gear / nonsense build. And even if they dont try to be everything, they often have pretty bad builds that just dont work and where even the best mechanical skills wouldnt change anything.

Some players even try to use guides, often bad, old or outdated guides. I cant count how often I have seen crap like necropotence on beginners (that often have read an absolutely outdated bad alcast guide for example). Wont go into detail, but the whole necropotence is about as strong as 3 lines spell power, 3 lines critical or any combination of them, which is literally almost any 4 piece set bonus, thats how bad this still often recommend set is, its like wasteing a complete 5 piece set bonus...

So if someone does 50-100% less damage then its usually also the build that doesnt work. And even if you have the worst mechanical skills, there are builds that can do 80k+ DPS for you, without any effort, without learning anything at all, without weaving! And that is already 62% of the highest possible damage (130k) = 38% less for literally no skill and no investment (besides farming the gear) even a new player could reach who plays this game their first seconds (if you prepare that build for him).

To sum it up: Weaving is completely overrated and exaggerated from both sides. The elites that often use sets that explicitly need weaving (without even providing that much more damage) and the beginners who think that weaving is mandatory to reach high damage numbers (its mandatory to reach the highest damage like 130k but not to reach high damage like 100k).

High damage in the end is always a combination of plenty stuff:
1. Sets, Race (this alone does about 7%/8% for highend characters and much more for lowend characters), Gear, Attributes, CPs, Food, Mundus, ... (= proper build)
2. Which Skills you use and how you use them (= proper rotation)
3. Luck (Those 130k+ parses are often 1 out of 20 or more tries, where someone was really lucky with crit, lag and such stuff, its nothing that is achieved on a regular basis)
4. Weaving
5. Situation / Encounter (some stuff works better in one situation and worse in another, at least its static for dummyparses)
6. Group (is tank tanking? is healer healing? which buffs do you get? No single damage dealer is able to do 130k DPS by its own. Its usually also static for dummy parses.)
7. Knowledge (knowing skills, game mechanics, gear and especially maths!)

The last point affects almost any other point.

And weaving is the smallest or second smallest point here (luck is often a smaller factor).

The biggest impact has 1., 2., 6. and indirectly 7. because it affects almost everything else and if one of them or even several of exactly those points arent on a high level you wont do good damage, no matter how your mechanical skills are. Also they are basically multiplicative in nature, while weaving is only additive. Btw. even several points in 1 itself are multiplicative in nature (thats why this point has the biggest impact and something like a 80k heavy attack build is even possible). And with a basic understanding of math you should grasp the importance. If not, just look at this:

(Someone who mastered 3 aspects but is bad at one aspect)
1 * 1 * 1 * 0,5 = 0,5

(Someone who has mastered no aspect but is good at 3, and a bit more lacking on a 4th)
0,9 * 0,9 * 0,9 * 0,8 = 0,583

Both would yield the same sum (3.5), still the second one is 17% better.

And this multiplicative nature of different aspects causes also this "imbalanced" skill curve, because once you manage to get all aspects up, it drastically starts to ramp up to high numbers. If you are lacking at one or several of the important aspects you wont get high damage. The only solution would be to remove several aspects, so that they dont have any (multiplicative) effect anymore.

1. Remove Sets, Races, Skills, CPS, ... or in general build options, make them all the same.
2. Remove different skills, make everything the same skills or even the whole rotation only into pressing a single button.
3. Remove crit and lag (ok the removeing lag and bugs would be a good thing 🤣).
4. Remove weaving (least / second least impact)
5. Make all situations / encounters exactly the same
6. Remove group play / group buffs / roles and make everything the same.
7. Remove everything that somehow differs. Maybe toss a dice instead or just make everyone do the same damage no matter what else.

I dont think that people would like such a game, at least I wouldnt, it would be absolutely boring...

Jammy420

There will never be a balancing patch that makes practice obsolete. This game was built on fast reactive gameplay.

Shihp00

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Shihp00 wrote: »

Not long ago, I learned that some people can skip the 'DPS' stuff if they're Mechanically Skilled. There's crazy players out there that do solo challenges- yes, some can solo DLC dungeons with normal builds and half of them has never even owned a Dummy to test their 'DPS' (just practiced their mechanics on World Bosses and Arenas).

Good news: Nobody is forcing us to play like those players, Majority of the ESO community is very understanding and helpful. Seriously, you can still be mediocre and complete vet trials or earn trifectas.
Sometimes it's better to accept that we'll never be as good as the top than to demand that the game changes so we can feel better about the things we lack.

You still can skip the ‘dps parse stuff’ and progress deep into pve content, that’s just being a support main

Huh ? I was referring to Mechanically Skilled players who can SOLO hard content without checking their DPS. What's that even got to do with 'Support Mains'? [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

ForzaRammer

Shihp00 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Shihp00 wrote: »

Not long ago, I learned that some people can skip the 'DPS' stuff if they're Mechanically Skilled. There's crazy players out there that do solo challenges- yes, some can solo DLC dungeons with normal builds and half of them has never even owned a Dummy to test their 'DPS' (just practiced their mechanics on World Bosses and Arenas).

Good news: Nobody is forcing us to play like those players, Majority of the ESO community is very understanding and helpful. Seriously, you can still be mediocre and complete vet trials or earn trifectas.
Sometimes it's better to accept that we'll never be as good as the top than to demand that the game changes so we can feel better about the things we lack.

You still can skip the ‘dps parse stuff’ and progress deep into pve content, that’s just being a support main

Huh ? I was referring to Mechanically Skilled players who can SOLO hard content without checking their DPS. What's that even got to do with 'Support Mains'? [snip]

Tell me who solo dlc hm dungeons without ever parse. I’d love to know.

[edited to remove quote]

Stamicka

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

The latest changes haven't done anything to reduce the top-weighted balance of the skill curve when it comes to damage. The biggest issue I have always had with this game is that the biggest difference between mediocre DPS and good DPS is tenth-of-a-second differences in your weaving ability.

"You just gotta make sure your refreshing your abilities as they are about to run out." Sure, ok. So you have to juggle ten different skill timers, light attacking in between them all, barswapping, drinking potions, hitting synergies... oh and you might wanna look at your screen once in a while to I don't know maybe see whats actually happening.

So you think, ok, maybe I won't hit my abilities exactly on time or maybe my light attack weaving is .05 seconds off, surely I'll still be close to the proper amount of DPS? Nope. Not even close. Go ahead, get the exact same gear, same enchants, same champion points, same skills, same morphs, same food and spend time learning the build, get your light-attack weaving into your muscle memory. So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS.

You put all this effort into a class, spend millions of gold on materials, enchants and farming gear and you still can't get the '90k+ minimum' required to go do high-level content with your guild.

Now this is usually the bit where people will reply to this thread and tell me how easy it is to hit 90k DPS. Go ahead. I'm sure it is for you. I'm happy that it's working out for you. I know alot of people it doesn't work for. I'd say for every one person who humps the dummy for hundreds of hours and gets that 120k DPS, there's 20 other regular players who simply will not be able to do it.

This is a game and combat should be satisfying for normal, non-sweaty players. They make overland content pre-school level of easy, where you can kill anything with just heavy attacks and then they make the high-level out of reach for a majority of players. I've been playing this game for 8 years. It's just very frustrating that I can't create a character and be able to play at a high level.

How do you fix it? I don't know I just know that nothing has changed and their last 'big change' hasn't done anything to level the field.

It sounds like you are comparing yourself to the top end. Most of the time there will be a gap between you and someone else. For the type of player that you are describing that can hit 120k on a dummy, I'm sure there is a gap between them and another player. For me personally I used to love trying to get a high score in Maelstrom Arena. Even though I was able to hit scores in the 600k-610k range, there were players in the 620k range on the same class during the same patch. The gap between a 610k and a 620k in maelstrom is massive. Those players were obviously much better at Maelstrom than I was, and there's a feeling of inadequacy that comes with that. This wasn't the game's fault. They were just better at Maelstrom than I was. Maybe they put in more time, maybe they had better strategies, or maybe they just had a talent for Maelstrom. Whatever it was, I had to either accept that they were better or put in the time and try to improve. I personally decided to be content with the scores I could get. At the end of the day this is just a natural part of life. There will be people that are better at certain things than you are.

Shihp00

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Shihp00 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Shihp00 wrote: »

Not long ago, I learned that some people can skip the 'DPS' stuff if they're Mechanically Skilled. There's crazy players out there that do solo challenges- yes, some can solo DLC dungeons with normal builds and half of them has never even owned a Dummy to test their 'DPS' (just practiced their mechanics on World Bosses and Arenas).

Good news: Nobody is forcing us to play like those players, Majority of the ESO community is very understanding and helpful. Seriously, you can still be mediocre and complete vet trials or earn trifectas.
Sometimes it's better to accept that we'll never be as good as the top than to demand that the game changes so we can feel better about the things we lack.

You still can skip the ‘dps parse stuff’ and progress deep into pve content, that’s just being a support main

Huh ? I was referring to Mechanically Skilled players who can SOLO hard content without checking their DPS. What's that even got to do with 'Support Mains'? [snip]

Tell me who solo dlc hm dungeons without ever parse. I’d love to know.

[edited to remove quote]

Still confused how you concluded with: 'Support Main'?? l0l.

I was saying that having 'High DPS' isn't the only thing that makes someone a good player; it's all mechanical skill, example: SOLO players that do Hard content(I said 'Some', Not 'ALL' of them doesn't parse).

I know 2 people who have Solo'd Vet DLC Dungeons. If you're that curious, I've seen one Solo vet Black Drake Villa (which is easier compared to the rest) without ever hitting a dummy in their life. Don't know how I'm going to prove that to you since they're not some famous content creator posting videos about everything they do in the game but whether you believe it or not, they in fact do exist.

boi_anachronism_

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The problem is EJ Trial leaders. They require x dps on a dummy and different gear and different food than in the actual trial. The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Shouldnt run with those leaders. And yes you will at some points use different gear and here is why: to optimize your group your dk might be asked to run akotosh and sometimes someone else will. Sometimes there is only one Necro and you will be asked to run ec, sometimes you won't and you can rock your normal dps set up. I have always been required to parse in the gear I normally run and then have additional sets at the ready. When I regularly ran with my last guild we had 100% completion rate, very few deaths (personally I clocked 2 deaths in vdsr on one of my last runs) and everyone hit between 80k-90k.

So sure there are folks who do 100k that are carpets but plenty that know what they are doing.

boi_anachronism_

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

If two players have the same stats, same skills, same rotation, same equipment, equally fast reflexes, equally coordinated groups, but one of them weaves perfectly and the other doesn't., the one with better weaving will deal 50-100% more damage.

All right what you said, but this point is just absolutely not true. Weaving doesnt have such a big impact (anymore). It might had an impact of 50%, and I even doubt that it ever made up 50% of damage (for sure never 100% of damage) before patch 35 on nightblades with gear that only relied completely on light attacks. So a special build to make weaving look that powerful might perform really bad without weaving. But if you dont use stuff like nightblades, kjalnar, kinras, relequen, (pre patch 35) mealstrom staff which by far are (all!) not necessary to get high damage and in many cases are even inferior to alternative choices, then the maximum impact is about 30% between weaving and not weaving at all. Far less if you at least try and are even bad at it.

For example:
Relequen: Just use Siroria, Bahsei, Coral Riptide, all of them dont need any weaving and especially Bahsei (even in the nerft version) is still potentially stronger than Relequen in literally any fight and in fights where you have Adds, Relequen is noticeably worse than any of that options, its even worse than Yandir in this situations! And Yandir for example doesnt need any weaving and is playable by literally anyone, its weaker than the strongest options but its not weak!

Kjalnar: Stormfist for example does more damage than Kjalnar and requires 0 weaving = without weaving Stormfist does still the same amount while Kjalnar does 0 damage. With weaving Kjalnar does good damage, Stormfist still often does more damage (with some exceptions). So if you want to have high damage, choose Stormfist no matter if you are good or bad at weaving. If you want to make weaving look necessary without really gaining much more damage then choose kjalnar.

Kinras: Just use Pillars of Nirn. Even if you play Kinras perfectly (perfect weaving) and even if there is no Sorc in the group, the difference between Kinras and Pillar of Nirn is probablly only 1, maybe 2% total damage (so for a 100k parse its probably only 1k or 2k DPS difference in the most optimal situation). But if you fail a few times or there are Sorcs in the group you would even do less damage with Kinras no matter how good you weave.
=> You might again even do better without the set that requires perfect weaving...

Elemental Weapon (skill): does exactly the same amount of damage as literally any other standard spammable + that tiny little proc + applying status effects on every second cast. But look at Force Pulse for example, same amount of damage and similar chance to Proc status effects because you have 3 chances every cast + Ancient knowledge which increases the chance to apply status effects by 100% which yields in roughly 50% chance to apply a status effect every cast => you almost apply a status effect every second cast. So, both skills do nearly the same (single target damage) while one needs perfect weaving and the other works without weaving. The only difference is the Proc of elemental weapon (every 5th cast for a tiny bit of damage) vs. the proc of Force Pulse to hit 2 other targets (and triple the damage if that happens!) So in many situations (cleave) Force Pulse might even end up being about 2x as strong as elemental weapon, without the need for any weaving and if you miss light attacks a few times (and even the best do sometimes) then force pulse will be at least as strong or stronger in any case no matter if pure single target or cleave...

Weaving might help on any level (low damage and high damage) to increase your damage but for people who struggle to reach 80k dps for example, weaving is often the least problem, because its usually only about up to 30% if you dont explicitly choose sets / skills / classes that rely on weaving! But why should anyone choose such sets / skills / classes if he dont want to learn perfect weaving, especially when those often arent even better!?

Its like saying: "I hate eating tomatoes" but putting tomatoes in any meal you eat...

Rotation has often a much bigger impact. Many just randomly smash buttons. Just look at how players parse with low damage, they often forget recasting important buffs, sometimes even have less than 50% uptime of them (if they cast them at all...). Thats what is makeing one of the biggest differences in damage or alternatively cast DoTs / Buffs twice in a row or recast them while they still had about 10 seconds left, wasteing a whole GCD (= 1 sec) where they could cast a spammable that does maybe 70-100k damage by its own (on a proper build). If that happens once every 10 seconds this are 7-10k less DPS. If that happens twice every 10 seconds this are already 14-20k less total DPS...

Then there is the group that wants to be an absolut tanky heal DD which just literally have crappy stats, which even the best players wouldnt be able to fix by weaving and executeing a rotation properly. And in my experience helping new players this thing is pretty common on low DPS players. Just do a random vet run, wait until you get a low DPS player, start the log, look at what gear they wear and you will realize that it wont be possible to ever reach good damage with such a gear / nonsense build. And even if they dont try to be everything, they often have pretty bad builds that just dont work and where even the best mechanical skills wouldnt change anything.

Some players even try to use guides, often bad, old or outdated guides. I cant count how often I have seen crap like necropotence on beginners (that often have read an absolutely outdated bad alcast guide for example). Wont go into detail, but the whole necropotence is about as strong as 3 lines spell power, 3 lines critical or any combination of them, which is literally almost any 4 piece set bonus, thats how bad this still often recommend set is, its like wasteing a complete 5 piece set bonus...

So if someone does 50-100% less damage then its usually also the build that doesnt work. And even if you have the worst mechanical skills, there are builds that can do 80k+ DPS for you, without any effort, without learning anything at all, without weaving! And that is already 62% of the highest possible damage (130k) = 38% less for literally no skill and no investment (besides farming the gear) even a new player could reach who plays this game their first seconds (if you prepare that build for him).

To sum it up: Weaving is completely overrated and exaggerated from both sides. The elites that often use sets that explicitly need weaving (without even providing that much more damage) and the beginners who think that weaving is mandatory to reach high damage numbers (its mandatory to reach the highest damage like 130k but not to reach high damage like 100k).

High damage in the end is always a combination of plenty stuff:
1. Sets, Race (this alone does about 7%/8% for highend characters and much more for lowend characters), Gear, Attributes, CPs, Food, Mundus, ... (= proper build)
2. Which Skills you use and how you use them (= proper rotation)
3. Luck (Those 130k+ parses are often 1 out of 20 or more tries, where someone was really lucky with crit, lag and such stuff, its nothing that is achieved on a regular basis)
4. Weaving
5. Situation / Encounter (some stuff works better in one situation and worse in another, at least its static for dummyparses)
6. Group (is tank tanking? is healer healing? which buffs do you get? No single damage dealer is able to do 130k DPS by its own. Its usually also static for dummy parses.)
7. Knowledge (knowing skills, game mechanics, gear and especially maths!)

The last point affects almost any other point.

And weaving is the smallest or second smallest point here (luck is often a smaller factor).

The biggest impact has 1., 2., 6. and indirectly 7. because it affects almost everything else and if one of them or even several of exactly those points arent on a high level you wont do good damage, no matter how your mechanical skills are. Also they are basically multiplicative in nature, while weaving is only additive. Btw. even several points in 1 itself are multiplicative in nature (thats why this point has the biggest impact and something like a 80k heavy attack build is even possible). And with a basic understanding of math you should grasp the importance. If not, just look at this:

(Someone who mastered 3 aspects but is bad at one aspect)
1 * 1 * 1 * 0,5 = 0,5

(Someone who has mastered no aspect but is good at 3, and a bit more lacking on a 4th)
0,9 * 0,9 * 0,9 * 0,8 = 0,583

Both would yield the same sum (3.5), still the second one is 17% better.

And this multiplicative nature of different aspects causes also this "imbalanced" skill curve, because once you manage to get all aspects up, it drastically starts to ramp up to high numbers. If you are lacking at one or several of the important aspects you wont get high damage. The only solution would be to remove several aspects, so that they dont have any (multiplicative) effect anymore.

1. Remove Sets, Races, Skills, CPS, ... or in general build options, make them all the same.
2. Remove different skills, make everything the same skills or even the whole rotation only into pressing a single button.
3. Remove crit and lag (ok the removeing lag and bugs would be a good thing 🤣).
4. Remove weaving (least / second least impact)
5. Make all situations / encounters exactly the same
6. Remove group play / group buffs / roles and make everything the same.
7. Remove everything that somehow differs. Maybe toss a dice instead or just make everyone do the same damage no matter what else.

I dont think that people would like such a game, at least I wouldnt, it would be absolutely boring...

I run a nightblade and I can say for an absolute fact that it's a massive chunk, easily 50% of damage if you can't weave properly scaling based on just how bad, I now wear sets that require high skill weaving because it's simply a bonus to something I already have to do to get decent damage out of my build. So yeah in some cases it's overblown but it comes with a caveat which is that your class doesn't need it to function in a basic rotation. That said there are skills I don't typically run ew being one because crushing is just more utilitarian with the interrupt. But you do need to mention that psjic passives also proc an additional damage with weaving so it is something to consider, especially since most dps fb daggers with flame and poison enchantments already. By and large these do operate at the upper end of the spectrum. When I'm asked by beginners about gear I generally direct them to "set and forget" type sets and focus on skill choices and buffs. When everyone was running bahsei I was really outspoken about telling newbies not to. It was cutting their dps in half because of lack of resource management.

KilianDermoth

I doubt that you understood what I wrote, especially because I explicitly mentioned your case and that this single exception doesnt make it true that weaving has a big impact in general. It has only a big impact if you explicitly choose so, but then you shouldnt complain about it, because you are makeing your own life miserable by doing so... In most cases you even dont gain extra damage or absolutely neglectible extra damage...

Btw. no, psijic skill passives dont proc additional damage on weaving...

You probablly meant spell orb? Spell orb has nothing to do with weaving. Also I already mentioned it => asking myself again if you even read or understood what I wrote...

But your advice against Bahsei was absolute bad, even if people arent able to do the magicka minigame properly, bahsei is still one of the strongest sets (especially back then before the nerf), even if your magicka remains relatively high it beats almost any other set. Even False God (one of the weakest trial sets which has about the power of mother sorrow) still beats most sets and the lowest power of Bahsei (at 100%) is similar to False Gods / Mother Sorrows power while it just gets stronger, at max stronger than any other set in the game (trial or non trial).

And because it gradeuatlly scales with the missing Magicka it is still powerful at 50% or even 70% and worth a recommendation even for beginners, because there arent many other sets that would yield the same power and most of them are situational or as difficult as manageing low Magicka.

Kisakee

KilianDermoth wrote: »

I doubt that you understood what I wrote, especially because I explicitly mentioned your case and that this single exception doesnt make it true that weaving has a big impact in general. It has only a big impact if you explicitly choose so, but then you shouldnt complain about it, because you are makeing your own life miserable by doing so... In most cases you even dont gain extra damage or absolutely neglectible extra damage...

Btw. no, psijic skill passives dont proc additional damage on weaving...

You probablly meant spell orb? Spell orb has nothing to do with weaving. Also I already mentioned it => asking myself again if you even read or understood what I wrote...

But your advice against Bahsei was absolute bad, even if people arent able to do the magicka minigame properly, bahsei is still one of the strongest sets (especially back then before the nerf), even if your magicka remains relatively high it beats almost any other set. Even False God (one of the weakest trial sets which has about the power of mother sorrow) still beats most sets and the lowest power of Bahsei (at 100%) is similar to False Gods / Mother Sorrows power while it just gets stronger, at max stronger than any other set in the game (trial or non trial).

And because it gradeuatlly scales with the missing Magicka it is still powerful at 50% or even 70% and worth a recommendation even for beginners, because there arent many other sets that would yield the same power and most of them are situational or as difficult as manageing low Magicka.

Play one of the latest builds on a DK with a Charged weapon and Bahsei will do nothing for you at all with its 5 piece bonus.

KilianDermoth

1. It was "when everyone was running Bahsei" => past, also not recent = not latest DK build.

2. Bahsei still is a huge buff and still is one of the strongest (even if not always the strongest) set, even for latest DK builds with charged weapons, because charged weapons arent the only source. Btw. Bahsei didnt affect pets in the past (and they are probablly a bigger source of damage on a Sorc and Necro than charged weapons on a DK) but still Bahsei was the strongest set even for Sorcs and Necros.