The Skill Curve is still completely Imbalanced.

Shihp00

Not long ago, I learned that some people can skip the 'DPS' stuff if they're Mechanically Skilled. There's crazy players out there that do solo challenges- yes, some can solo DLC dungeons with normal builds and half of them has never even owned a Dummy to test their 'DPS' (just practiced their mechanics on World Bosses and Arenas).

Good news: Nobody is forcing us to play like those players, Majority of the ESO community is very understanding and helpful. Seriously, you can still be mediocre and complete vet trials or earn trifectas.
Sometimes it's better to accept that we'll never be as good as the top than to demand that the game changes so we can feel better about the things we lack.

KilianDermoth

haelgaan wrote: »

all y'all using the small numbers on your light attack line to brush off complaints about weave impact need to spend more time understanding your cmx results.

a good weave is far, far more than just the LA line - it is also the boosts to all of your other skills that goes with the skill or set bonuses that you get from maintaining 'stacks' of attacks. eg rele, kinra, etc.

a poor weave impacts much more than just the LA line... OP and others acknowledging this truth are 100% correct - minute differences in weaving can have an oversized impact on DPS, and IMO it's one of the worst aspects of the ESO combat system

As said 30% between weave and no weave.

And to sets that need light attack weaving the solution is very simple: dont use them. There are alternatives that are as strong and even stronger if you dont perfectly weave than nonsense like kjalnar or even kinras which is even kind of obsolete since the Sorc Atro changes.

Its the first thing I recommend every beginner: to ditch such stupid sets and they immedately improve, sometimes drastically.

Btw. my weaving is often everything but perfect, plenty misses, not that great weaving times, still > 100k DPS and in real content often in the top of the damage. In dungeons I regularly do 60-90% of group damage. Still there are some people out there that do some more damage, but they are only few.

rpa wrote: »

How do you top DDs deal with combat turning inside out every 3 months? And key presses not registring?

I mainly use the same build as 1-2 years back with little adjustments. But (perfected) Bahsei, Nirn (my 2 most used sets) and kilt or stormfist / maw combined with perfected maelstrom destro stuff / greatsword are still strong / meta and I am still in the top dps of the group usually. I just ditch stuff that gets completely killed but not stuff that might be only 1% less powerful than another solution or than before.

In dungeons I even started doing a lazy setup with orders wrath, yandir, maw and maelstrom destro staff. A bit less damage but much more chill to play.

@lemonizzle
Nonesense, read my first post. You can even do 80k dps by just being afk, that translates to 40-50k dps in a dungeon (single target and can even reach > 100k aoe wise).

There are also other builds that are similar in strength without button smashing, like a 6 pet fun build I made, it just relies on Procs (pets) and you literally can miss plenty skill casts / light attacks and still do much more damage than the numbers you said. Some of the Procs even procct by your permanent pets like the tormentor without the need of doing anything from your side. NO button smashing at all. Just play such builds if you dont want to button smash...

Even the difference between light attack weaving and non light attack weaving at all in a classical setup is only about 30% and you can reach 100k dps without any button smashing...

INM

Again there is a talk about weaving. Honestly the community itself made a holy cow from weaving, just go to any thread in which OP asks for dps advices and you'll see 2/3 of comments being about weaving, even if a guy has complete mess in everything, like having 30% of dots uptime and using a skill once per 3 seconds. Yes, it's free dps, but it was proven multiple times that you can achieve 100k+ without light attacking whatsoever. It's just an excuse for people with subpar dps. Actually I've seen many excuses over the years, like lack of gear, lack of cp, different race, ping, macroses, etc, but i never seen that complainers would accept the fact that they don't understand basics or can't execute basics properly.

Sarannah

Can't believe so many players are actually trying to defend having to LEARN a rotation, and defend having to spend hours and hours on a dummy trying to make a rotation work. This is a game, there shouldn't be this much learning. A game is for fun.

Add to that the game changing every three months and that the game is online(affected by latency), making the combat rotation this terrible thing which shouldn't have existed at all. A major mountain to climb for new players.

It is great that some players who have mastered a rotation and who can keep up with the meta are feeling superior, but is that really worth all the players the game is losing because combat requires this much learning?... And should those few players be able to basically hold higher content hostage by asking for ridiculous DPS numbers to even be able to join them?

As I said above, a game is for fun. Having most of the playerbase locked out of the higher content(and not being able to have fun in PvP) due to how combat works, isn't good for the game and the playerbase itself. This game should attract more players, not lock players out of existing content and chase new players away by holding a mountain of rotation before their eyes when they have just started playing. The game needs to be more open to everyone, including the combat. Otherwise the playerbase will keep dwindling down.

I'm not saying players should be able to hit 100k DPS with one finger, but for those who are doing their best, they shouldn't be doing only 1/10th or 2/10th of the DPS the top players do. The DPS difference should be 10% tops between the floor and the ceiling.

CrashTest

rpa wrote: »

How do you top DDs deal with combat turning inside out every 3 months? And key presses not registring?

I used to update my builds with every patch, but now I just stop playing ESO for a bit bc having to constantly refarm and rebuild just wears you down after awhile especially if you went through that for years before the stickerbook and transmuting existed.

I'm at the point where I'm just perma burned out from the constant changes, so even now with the stickerbook and transmute, I just can't do it anymore. I have more than 1 dps, but I no longer update the others whenever I return bc why bother when ZOS will trash them all soon anyway?

I don't even bother trying to get the best parse I can anymore bc the build I'm using will be obsolete soon due to the constant changes. I just find whatever is currently meta, smack the dummy with it a few tries, grab the first parse that's well over 100k, then call it quits for parsing bc that and my previous clears are way more than enough to get me into any raid I want.

As for key presses not registering, it sucks but doesn't really happen too often to negatively impact my DPS. It's probably like a 5k loss when it gets bad. I'll try to cast the skill again once or twice then just continue on with what's next in my rotation if it still doesn't fire.

Shihp00

INM wrote: »

Again there is a talk about weaving. Honestly the community itself made a holy cow from weaving, just go to any thread in which OP asks for dps advices and you'll see 2/3 of comments being about weaving, even if a guy has complete mess in everything, like having 30% of dots uptime and using a skill once per 3 seconds. Yes, it's free dps, but it was proven multiple times that you can achieve 100k+ without light attacking whatsoever. It's just an excuse for people with subpar dps. Actually I've seen many excuses over the years, like lack of gear, lack of cp, different race, ping, macroses, etc, but i never seen that complainers would accept the fact that they don't understand basics or can't execute basics properly.

because some people get bitter about anything that takes "Skill" in this game . Imagine if Versus Fighting games removed the 'Combo mechanic' because some people refuse to master them and gets beat by another player who did. Like you said, Nobody is even required to "Weave" to do high damage anymore, some 1 bar / heavy attack builds are stronger than the other ones that needs you to bar swap. Complainers watch someone destroy a boss and suddenly everything is "broken" in the game because they can't do it. Funny really.

Dr_Con

I've been following this topic for a day now and have one question for the OP.

Did you mean learning curve?

Kisakee

lemonizzle wrote: »

I agree with the OP, smacking buttons fast enough gives too much dps compared to other factors that are easier to influence.
Balancing the top 1% is simply the wrong direction, the bottom has to be lifted. Those veteran players will mop the floor with vTrial bosses using april fools brooms, regardless of what the combat team does.

So you want to deal as much damage as someone who put lots of time in their build, their training and keeps being up to date with their equipment and skills by simply using the same old stuff you used for years without changing anything on your side? That's not how it works and that's a good thing.

If you want to be top notch you have to work for it. Yes, work. Not putting like 30 minuted effort into it once a week after your day job but sinking hours and hours ever week into it to stay informed and adjust your build. You don't like that? Fine, but don't expect to do trifecta raids with that attitude.

"If you stop getting better you stop being good" is not just a saying, it's true.

SerafinaWaterstar

kargen27 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..

A group I do trials with once a week averages between 20-30k DPS. We have finished all but one vet trial and are getting close to finishing it. We have done a few hard mode and will get back to that after we finish our one unfinished trial. If the group is situationally aware and knows mechanics 25K is plenty to finish vet trials.

I can hit 70k on a dummy sometimes but in the trial I am closer to 30k on solo boss. I'm guessing only the elite groups that have every little thing planned out for the entire group get close to dummy numbers in actual trials.

I dont disagree with what you are getting at, but please don't say "25k is plenty to finish vet trials", as it will mislead a lot of people. Context is important for DPS, but the most objective measure of DPS is a trial dummy. If you are only pulling 25k on a trial dummy, you arent clearing most vet trials unless you are being carried.

A 100k DPS (on a trial dummy), might pull 35k on one boss, and 115k on another. They might pull 50k in one group and 100K in another on the same boss. They might pull 40k in this trash pack and 200k in that one, etc. Context (group, strats, fight mechanics) matters. That's why we talk trial dummy DPS because its objective and standard for everyone.

Certainly, some groups have way higher than necessary expectations/requirements, but that doesnt mean that DPS requirements are fundamentally a bad thing.

25k is plenty to finish vet trials. I didn't say 25k on a dummy. As you pointed out results will vary when things start hitting back. I know more than a handful of players that can easily hit 100k on a dummy and are next to useless in a trial because they are never situationally aware. They get so intent on keeping the rotation up they miss a mechanic and die. That means we miss their DPS and the DPS of the player rezzing them.
A couple that are in our training runs for vet trials are getting better at paying attention though. If you leave them dead for a while they start understanding the value of staying alive. They will eventually figure it out and be great assets to the group. I see dummies as a way to compare builds and get familiar with a rotation. The numbers are really unimportant compared to situational awareness once you get in the trial.

A standard that often doesn't apply is not a good standard.

Agree. Progging vet CR and have some who have high dummy parses but no awareness of mechs & therefore die. Causing dps loss as other dd have to stop & rez. But have seen magplar with lower dps save a wipe as could stay alive & do all cores/shards downstairs when others died.

Dummies are good for practising rotations initially but trials require situational reactions that dummies just don’t teach.

Bouldercleave

If you stripped the entire game of all gear, all weapon and class skills, and made everyone fight with the same stick and light attacks - there would still be a skill imbalance.

The truth comes from the realization that some players are simply better than you.

Even if you had all the skills fire off equally and for the same amount of damage, some people are still gonna be better at it than others. That's not imbalance - that's life.

Animation cancelling (light attack / block weaving) admittedly wasn't initially an intended feature of the game but they couldn't figure how to eliminate it so they just built the rest of the game around it. As long as some people are good at it and others aren't - you have a skill gap. You will ALWAYS have a skill gap.




Life has a skill gap.....

SerafinaWaterstar

Bouldercleave wrote: »

If you stripped the entire game of all gear, all weapon and class skills, and made everyone fight with the same stick and light attacks - there would still be a skill imbalance.

The truth comes from the realization that some players are simply better than you.

Even if you had all the skills fire off equally and for the same amount of damage, some people are still gonna be better at it than others. That's not imbalance - that's life.

Animation cancelling (light attack / block weaving) admittedly wasn't initially an intended feature of the game but they couldn't figure how to eliminate it so they just built the rest of the game around it. As long as some people are good at it and others aren't - you have a skill gap. You will ALWAYS have a skill gap.




Life has a skill gap.....

Yes. This is true.

But this is not life, but a game, that people play to have fun.

And very few seem to find dummy humping fun.

Bouldercleave

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

If you stripped the entire game of all gear, all weapon and class skills, and made everyone fight with the same stick and light attacks - there would still be a skill imbalance.

The truth comes from the realization that some players are simply better than you.

Even if you had all the skills fire off equally and for the same amount of damage, some people are still gonna be better at it than others. That's not imbalance - that's life.

Animation cancelling (light attack / block weaving) admittedly wasn't initially an intended feature of the game but they couldn't figure how to eliminate it so they just built the rest of the game around it. As long as some people are good at it and others aren't - you have a skill gap. You will ALWAYS have a skill gap.




Life has a skill gap.....

Yes. This is true.

But this is not life, but a game, that people play to have fun.

And very few seem to find dummy humping fun.

You can't eliminate reality entirely because it's "just a game". You also can't eliminate a skill gap when the skill gap is the people playing the game and not the game itself. Some people are just better at some things than others.

We can't all get participation ribbons here just for showin' up.

DMuehlhausen

The problem is EJ Trial leaders. They require x dps on a dummy and different gear and different food than in the actual trial. The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Oreyn_Bearclaw

kargen27 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..

A group I do trials with once a week averages between 20-30k DPS. We have finished all but one vet trial and are getting close to finishing it. We have done a few hard mode and will get back to that after we finish our one unfinished trial. If the group is situationally aware and knows mechanics 25K is plenty to finish vet trials.

I can hit 70k on a dummy sometimes but in the trial I am closer to 30k on solo boss. I'm guessing only the elite groups that have every little thing planned out for the entire group get close to dummy numbers in actual trials.

I dont disagree with what you are getting at, but please don't say "25k is plenty to finish vet trials", as it will mislead a lot of people. Context is important for DPS, but the most objective measure of DPS is a trial dummy. If you are only pulling 25k on a trial dummy, you arent clearing most vet trials unless you are being carried.

A 100k DPS (on a trial dummy), might pull 35k on one boss, and 115k on another. They might pull 50k in one group and 100K in another on the same boss. They might pull 40k in this trash pack and 200k in that one, etc. Context (group, strats, fight mechanics) matters. That's why we talk trial dummy DPS because its objective and standard for everyone.

Certainly, some groups have way higher than necessary expectations/requirements, but that doesnt mean that DPS requirements are fundamentally a bad thing.

25k is plenty to finish vet trials. I didn't say 25k on a dummy. As you pointed out results will vary when things start hitting back. I know more than a handful of players that can easily hit 100k on a dummy and are next to useless in a trial because they are never situationally aware. They get so intent on keeping the rotation up they miss a mechanic and die. That means we miss their DPS and the DPS of the player rezzing them.
A couple that are in our training runs for vet trials are getting better at paying attention though. If you leave them dead for a while they start understanding the value of staying alive. They will eventually figure it out and be great assets to the group. I see dummies as a way to compare builds and get familiar with a rotation. The numbers are really unimportant compared to situational awareness once you get in the trial.

A standard that often doesn't apply is not a good standard.

@kargen27
Again, a statement like 25k DPS is plenty to finish vet trials lacks context, which is why I think it should be avoided. If you really have 8 DPS pulling 25k on a trial boss for 200k group DPS and you follow mechanics, sure, you will clear most Vet content with some work (some HMs will be out of reach).

Side Bar: We were one of the first clears of VMOL HM (I believe 3rd or 4th on PC/NA) back in the day, back when most groups took the better part of a year to do it. We did it with group DPS of 272K, so about 35k per DPS (this was Jan of 2017 so damage was a lot lower then). I honestly don't think you could clear HM with much less than that. Every group that cleared before us did it with significantly more DPS (I believe we were the first HM clear that went through Lunar Phase). In other words, we were the group that focused on mechanics over brute force. Trial dummies didnt exist then, but my best guess is that our average DPS on a trial dummy at that time would have been roughly 80k. Most of us were flirting with 40k on a 6 mil at that time. It also took us the better part of a year with 2-3 nights a week to do it. So when I hear a Raid Leader want 90 or 100k for a prog group, I get it. Its okay to not want to beat your head against the wall for 9 months. Anybody can form their own group with like minded people and set whatever reqs they want.

I am not saying that you cant clear dungeons with low DPS. I am saying that when you talk DPS and put a label on your DPS abilities, the only number that it ever makes sense to use (I am a "insert number" DPS) is a trial dummy as its the only fixed and objective measure we have.

Nobody that knows what they are talking about is going to take that as you hit that number on every fight. But 99/100 times, a 100k DPS (as measured by a trial dummy) is going to pull more damage on an actual trial boss than an 80k DPS. Are there exceptions? Sure. People get DPS blinders, I get it, but the notion that people that pull high damage on dummies are by definition bad at mechanics is simply not true. Nothing could be further from the truth in all my experience in ESO. To be candid, it's typically a fallacy put forth by people with low DPS.

SerafinaWaterstar

Bouldercleave wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

If you stripped the entire game of all gear, all weapon and class skills, and made everyone fight with the same stick and light attacks - there would still be a skill imbalance.

The truth comes from the realization that some players are simply better than you.

Even if you had all the skills fire off equally and for the same amount of damage, some people are still gonna be better at it than others. That's not imbalance - that's life.

Animation cancelling (light attack / block weaving) admittedly wasn't initially an intended feature of the game but they couldn't figure how to eliminate it so they just built the rest of the game around it. As long as some people are good at it and others aren't - you have a skill gap. You will ALWAYS have a skill gap.




Life has a skill gap.....

Yes. This is true.

But this is not life, but a game, that people play to have fun.

And very few seem to find dummy humping fun.

You can't eliminate reality entirely because it's "just a game". You also can't eliminate a skill gap when the skill gap is the people playing the game and not the game itself. Some people are just better at some things than others.

We can't all get participation ribbons here just for showin' up.

Said nothing about ‘participation ribbons’.

Just not hugely keen on having some activities that seem to need stupid levels of commitment to be considered even vaguely acceptable.

kargen27

I didn't say people who pull high DPS are bad at mechanics. I pointed out mechanics matter more. The entire point of my post is a player shouldn't feel locked out of doing vet trials because they are not hitting 90k. My statement does not lack context. 25k and an understanding of mechanics is plenty to get through most vet trials.
Sure it takes longer and maybe some hard mode content will be out of reach but players shouldn't feel excluded because of an arbitrary number. I'm not against a trial leader requiring a certain level of DPS. I just don't want players to think the game requires that high DPS. You can find trial groups that don't have the high level requirements.

Twohothardware

I think they need to rethink vet content in PVE and lower the difficulty level for vet trials and DLC dungeons. They should be harder content but in the current state you've got like 1% of the player base completing the content. All the current changes they've been making to address that like increasing how long DOTs last and reducing the importance of light attack weaving have not worked at all and need to be reversed because they just hurt the game for everyone. Just lower the base difficulty of some of the vet content and find other ways to give a challenge to the top 1% of the player base.

At the same time the lower end content needs to be overhauled. Overland content and normal dungeons are too basic and easy. You shouldn't get murdered out of the gate like in Elden Ring but it should be a challenge.

There then needs to be a larger focus put on PvP and Cyrodiil because that is where the true end game highest difficulty content should be. Players vs other players. Up until now Cyrodiil has been mostly an afterthought with development.

KilianDermoth

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

So when I hear a Raid Leader want 90 or 100k for a prog group, I get it. Its okay to not want to beat your head against the wall for 9 months. Anybody can form their own group with like minded people and set whatever reqs they want.

Exactly this!

Additionally just lets think about stuff like vSS (there are plenty other examples like banished cells, which needs lesser damage but it still the same situation) if the DPS gets to low, so that adds keep spawning so that the tank have to deal with more than usual, because the damage dealers just cant kill them in time, then it is still possible to finish such a trial but only with tanks that are far more skilled than damage dealers who event arent able to do mediocre damage (and yes doing 80k / 90k trial dummy damage or 35-40k real damage is not high, its mediocre).

So the question here to every damage dealer who cant even reach mediocre damage numbers and think its unfair if he gets excluded because of this (while its something they could just work on and improve) that your unwillingness to get better should be carried by far better players like a tank who can deal with 8+ daedroths (in banished cells) or has suddenly twice the amount of atros than usual (in vSS)?

I doubt that any of those low DPS damage dealers ever experienced such situations and even can imagine how demanding it is. Its by far more difficult than just reaching 90k dps on the trial dummy (not real content, because it is a team effort to pull such high numbers in real content and cant be done just by a single good damage dealer without any support)...

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am not saying that you cant clear dungeons with low DPS. I am saying that when you talk DPS and put a label on your DPS abilities, the only number that it ever makes sense to use (I am a "insert number" DPS) is a trial dummy as its the only fixed and objective measure we have.

For trials yes, for dungeons no!

First, Dungeons are far easier and less demanding, so you dont need that high damage as you do in trials.

Also you wont find the same situations in dungeons as you do on a trial dummy. You will have far less buffs than a trial / trial dummy gives and especially stuff like Pen and Crit have other values.

For the trial dummy nowadays you barely need any Pen at all, while in a dungeon you need about 7k pen. So someone who has 7k pen and parses lower than someone with 0 pen will still do noticeable more damage in a dungeon than the one who parsed higher on the trial dummy.

Also someone who is above the crit cap on a dummy will do far better in a dungeon as someone who is below the crit cap on a dummy, because you wont get that many crit damage buffs and have to provide them yourself.

Further if you dont have plenty crit damage, crit chance will provide less damage than the same build which trades crit chance for a strong proc effect for example or plenty spell damage, while it is the other way in a trial.

Sometimes even the 6 or 3 mil dummy is better to test how someone would perform in a dungeon than the trial dummy, which is just completely overbuffed for a dungeon situation and completely unrealistic. But nontheless wheter the 3/6 mil dummy nor the trial dummy are really good to compare a dungeon build. We are just missing a proppper dummy for this situation (a trial dummy with different presets would be nice).

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I get it, but the notion that people that pull high damage on dummies are by definition bad at mechanics is simply not true. Nothing could be further from the truth in all my experience in ESO. To be candid, it's typically a fallacy put forth by people with low DPS.

90% agree, because there are still some of high dummy dps guys who play really bad, especially those who just started and copied a meta build and rotation and reach 100k but have absolutely no experience. But yes its really really rare that a low DPS guy plays better than the high DPS people, its so rare, that probably unicorns are more common, except if you are talking about a low DPS guy who runs tank sets and doesnt die because he is playing a half tank (and thus just survives even while playing bad and also does no damage because of this) but this is eons away from skill.

Also even if you can play good, you dont always do it, for example if you arent concentrated or just have a bad day, you might start playing bad, this happens, no matter how good or bad of a player you are. And I even dont begin with bugs, lags or async, like for example vRG now in this event, where the wave which should be dodged just came several seconds after the wave killed me (desync), so that there just was no chance to react except if you were permanently dodge rolling / blocking, because you were dead before the mechanic on your side even happend...

Also sometimes its not the case that a high dps guy doesnt know the mechanics, but often that he just doesnt want to play them because he is used to high dps tactics and when he gets into a group that just cant pull that damage, the tactics (often burn) he tries just wont work.

But if people play different tactics it often leads into fails, no matter how high or low the dps is and how good or bad the players are.

AinSoph

There are some weird takes here and frankly they are quite off-putting...

"I shouldnt be expected to learn a rotation to play the game"
Well, this kind of thing only applies to vHM DLC Trial/Dungeons which is a low % of the overall game, please understand that you won't be able to do everything the game provides without a little effort on your part.

"Mechanics matter more"
Literally everyone knows this but DPS is the only metric that can be done by a player by themselves and the mechanics are learned through trial and error, a dummy parse can and should be considered as a pre-req to at least deal the damage required

"25k DPS is enough"
No. There are 11 other people in a trial group at a given time please be considerate of everyone's time. 60k is easily achievable nowadays on the trial dummy.

"Rotation is just button mashing"
It's mostly 2 buttons a second, up to potentially 6 (within 1 second) with potion, synergy, block, roll dodge, and bash

bantamguar

Sarannah wrote: »

Can't believe so many players are actually trying to defend having to LEARN a rotation, and defend having to spend hours and hours on a dummy trying to make a rotation work. This is a game, there shouldn't be this much learning. A game is for fun.

This may come as a surprise to you, but some people do find that fun. Otherwise - get this - they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Sarannah wrote: »

And should those few players be able to basically hold higher content hostage by asking for ridiculous DPS numbers to even be able to join them?

And who is stopping you from creating your own group with your own requirements? Why is it on existing guilds to change their playstyle to one they won't enjoy?

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm not saying players should be able to hit 100k DPS with one finger, but for those who are doing their best, they shouldn't be doing only 1/10th or 2/10th of the DPS the top players do. The DPS difference should be 10% tops between the floor and the ceiling.

You can't claim the difference in dps should be that little after asking for things like auto bar swapping... as others have said there will always be a skill gap even if you take everything away. Even with people doing "their best"

boi_anachronism_

KilianDermoth wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I mean I'm a bit sore about this. My guild that I used to run with regularly, like probably 3x a week, upped their dps expectations to 90k after u35. I had about a 15k drop from my 80k dps pre u35 and now I'm basically locked out of trials. I got really disheartened and just gave up..

Yeah I am also in guilds that have done this and it is absolutely justified, because the dummy got really huge buffs like 15% extra crit damage and plenty of penetration debuffs (you literally dont need any penetration right now at all to parse high on the trial dummy). This way usually parsing 80k now is comparable to parsing 60k-70k before the patch for most builds.

And depending on the trial 60k-70k (old dummy) / 80k (new dummy) can make trial runs unnecessary more difficult and even yield to failed runs.

Also its really not a huge thing to reach 80k nowadays on the new dummy (look at my previous post, you can even do this by using a tape and being afk)!

Further, consider that the lower the damage is, the more difficult it gets for anyone, especially for the tanks who have to be much better players and have a really hefty job to do with low dps damage dealers. Just try to tank vSS with a group that does < 300k DPS, its not fun, except if you are a machoist. And 300k means usually less than 38k real dps per damage dealer, while most of the damage dealers did parse 80k+ on a dummy and a few did parse less than this. I almost canceled the run after hours but finally we did it, but I wont do this again, at least not as a tank!

Even something like nRG with < 80k group dps with absolute beginners wasnt that fun. My dps alone would be higher (if I hadnt to tank, while I even contributed about 10k dps to the group dps, too...)

I mean I hear you. The problem is that rotations at that level are muscle memory and once you change a bunch of timers and have to swap out all your skills it's going to make you dip regardless of dummy buffs. On top of that light armor sets are not good for parsing anymore relative to medium because penetration is basically a useless buff so all new gear as well. I mean I ran vdsr sub hour runs with these guys. In fact I was with the GM for their very first clear. I've Cleared every vet dlc trial more times then I can remember and had a number of achievements. On top of that I've done raid leading for normal trials to teach folks so it feels like insult to injury. Thing is they never really gave folks a chance to become accustomed to the changes before they changed requirements. So basically you got good immediately or you lost your spot. So yeah, I'm salty.

And to folks saying you can hit 90k without light attacking with magblade you can't. Their hardest hitting skill is contingent on it as well as a big execute buff for stacking at the last 25% so that is definitely dependant on class and isn't universal.

WrathOfInnos

Tbh, players don't really perform memorized static rotations anymore. This was possible when DoT timers were static and often based around 10-12s. Now they are an absurd mix of 9 to 32s, making rotations far too long to memorize or build muscle memory. They're also full of spammables. The result was full dynamic rotations, keeping one eye on timers at all times. This was completely backward from stated goals last update, and widened the gap between to top and mid range DPS.

cave_troll

Don't know why people complain so much about weaving. It's so easy to do. You just watch the ability animation and memorize when the light attack animation starts. So all you have to do is press La when your character is at the right point of the skills animation, then you immediately hit the next skill to cancel the light attacks animation. After some time you know the timing and can do this blind.

But investing time in learning challenging stuff is too much for some people, you could just do one or 2 parses a day in under 10 minutes and learn it in one week. I agree accessibility is not in a good place in this game but not because the games mechanics are so hard to learn but the lack of knowledge and toturials are.

You only have 12 active buttons to press, which is less than in other mmos. The argument having to watch all of your timers on the bar and not being able to concentrate on what's happening seems laughable to me.
You got eyes, just watch the floor or the enemies health for the dots on it and when you see one of your aoe zones or dots disappear you recast it. Or even easier you do a static rotation. You always press the same buttons in the same order.

Worst part is most of you guys are PC players, you got addons screaming at you when sth runs out and is rdy to be reapplied. We console people didn't have any timers half and a year ago.

The game is not hard as it is, in my opinion you're just lacking commitment. I also learned it while playing maybe 3 hours per week when I wanted to get into veteran stuff. Watch YouTube, read guides, ask some people in your guilds.

CrashTest

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The problem is those people that hit the highest dps are also the ones dead most of the fights cause they just [snip] U to the mechanics.

I don't get why people keep saying this bc that's not true at all unless you've got a troll, it's progression, or you're with a diff raid that uses strats you're unfamiliar with, but once those high dps get the mechs down or the new strats then it's np. We didn't start out "just [snip] U to the mechanics". It took a lot of practice and wipes to get to that point, and in all those practices and wipes, we learned mechs to the point that it became second nature.

There's a very weird hate and borderline shaming on these forums for those who can do high dps.

[edited to remove quote]

kargen27

""25k DPS is enough"
No. There are 11 other people in a trial group at a given time please be considerate of everyone's time. 60k is easily achievable nowadays on the trial dummy."

yes 25k is absolutely enough to finish vet trials. All eight DPS could be doing 25k DPS and still clear most vet trials. Not all but most. Players that want a quick group can by all means require 60k+ DPS. I'm fine with that. I am not fine with them making it seem like the game requires that much DPS to complete the trial.

Everest_Lionheart

Raid teams are asking for 100-110K DPS numbers because they want clears instead of progs. I see new teams form and disband in a matter of couple weeks because they aren’t clearing. People are more interested in getting SOTN, VOR and BOL with 6-8 hours of work.

Groups like that are rare but that seems to be the new standard for much of the endgame raid community. The only groups progging anymore are trifecta groups but to join those you need multiple clears of the hard mode already which means you have already spent the time in there. I’m even seeing here runs asking for multiple clears these days.

That’s it folks, that’s the endgame. You either have the clears or you don’t run.

Wait wasn’t this a DPS thread? It’s get back to that. If you want to improve DPS you don’t necessarily need to spend all your time on a dummy, but you do need to spend time DPSing content that isn’t base game normal dungeons. The skill gap of DPS also correlates to the knowledge gap of mechanics of vet dungeons and trails. To optimize DPS you have to know when and where to apply your dots and which targets to focus. You have to know when to block, when to move, when to deal with a portal or pin mechanic and also be concise on you communication.

I saw it mentioned on the first page of this thread, timing and rhythm to the fight (or the parse) are your friends. It’s like a big dance and your moves and timing of the moves correspond to the success or failure of that dance.

Oh this is so much more than a DPS thread. If only the game taught and reinforced these mechanics outside of the 2 minutes tutorial on how to block, bash and heavy attack. To learn the rest of the mechanics you’ll need to play the game and to get reasonably good at them you will need to play the game often. And I’m not talking about overland. Seek out the hard stuff and don’t be afraid to fail. Every trifecta clear has failed more times than most people are ever willing to try. Keep that in mind.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Tbh, players don't really perform memorized static rotations anymore. This was possible when DoT timers were static and often based around 10-12s. Now they are an absurd mix of 9 to 32s, making rotations far too long to memorize or build muscle memory. They're also full of spammables. The result was full dynamic rotations, keeping one eye on timers at all times. This was completely backward from stated goals last update, and widened the gap between to top and mid range DPS.

100%, Slow clap, like, agree, heart, whatever.

Also, we told them it would happen. LOL

Vulkunne

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

The latest changes haven't done anything to reduce the top-weighted balance of the skill curve when it comes to damage. The biggest issue I have always had with this game is that the biggest difference between mediocre DPS and good DPS is tenth-of-a-second differences in your weaving ability.

"You just gotta make sure your refreshing your abilities as they are about to run out." Sure, ok. So you have to juggle ten different skill timers, light attacking in between them all, barswapping, drinking potions, hitting synergies... oh and you might wanna look at your screen once in a while to I don't know maybe see whats actually happening.

So you think, ok, maybe I won't hit my abilities exactly on time or maybe my light attack weaving is .05 seconds off, surely I'll still be close to the proper amount of DPS? Nope. Not even close. Go ahead, get the exact same gear, same enchants, same champion points, same skills, same morphs, same food and spend time learning the build, get your light-attack weaving into your muscle memory. So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS.

You put all this effort into a class, spend millions of gold on materials, enchants and farming gear and you still can't get the '90k+ minimum' required to go do high-level content with your guild.

Now this is usually the bit where people will reply to this thread and tell me how easy it is to hit 90k DPS. Go ahead. I'm sure it is for you. I'm happy that it's working out for you. I know alot of people it doesn't work for. I'd say for every one person who humps the dummy for hundreds of hours and gets that 120k DPS, there's 20 other regular players who simply will not be able to do it.

This is a game and combat should be satisfying for normal, non-sweaty players. They make overland content pre-school level of easy, where you can kill anything with just heavy attacks and then they make the high-level out of reach for a majority of players. I've been playing this game for 8 years. It's just very frustrating that I can't create a character and be able to play at a high level.

How do you fix it? I don't know I just know that nothing has changed and their last 'big change' hasn't done anything to level the field.

First of all, ty for sharing your thoughts on this subject with us and I appreciate the level of detail in your post. So lets take a step back and start at the beginning, as I often find that most helpful when trying to tackle tough problems like this. Once upon a time, I was where you are now and faced with the same dilemma. Rather than more or less exhausting myself over this issue I refused to play 'their' game. Thus, I shifted roles and became a Tank, skilled in both Traditional Tanking as well as Heavy DPS role in PvP.

Now, with that said, you might be thinking that I quit, I gave up etc. But in order to move forward something had to go. I could not produce a 'product' that the stiffs would consider completely acceptable to their standards, which fact is, they base their standards on what authorities out there say, so these 'people' are all clones of something someone else says that everyone must have. Some will disagree with this, feel free. However I was rejected from enough Trial Groups to know that its almost like following a religion to some of them and I can't be anyone but who I am... not who or what they want me to immediately become or else. And you know, they have their friends and homies that they're not going to hold them to this absurd standard. So think about that too... gosh that goes for alot of things doesn't it?

In abandoning one path and embracing Tanking (which quite frankly was better in every way) I enabled probably by now hundreds of players to successfully complete content, over all the years I've been with ESO. This includes PvP as well, so the effects of me refusing to break myself in order to meet someone else's cold, unrealistic and unobtainable goal, helped many people and in this regard, I was then and am still now playing at a High Level without playing at their level.

I hope this helps, its a way of thinking you rarely see anymore however I feel that before any real resolution is seen its going to start with a decision made by you, respectfully, that only you can make. Thanks again

JJMaxx1980

I never said the gap should be removed. A skill gap between players is healthy but the current gap is a chasm and is way too large. Yes, you could put in the days and hours and weeks to become an elite DPS doing 100k+ but as others have said, this is a game. I love all the replies where people claim it’s so simple to play whack-a-mole with 12 ability timers all with different cooldowns, and also add in potions and synergies.

I have a friend who spends every other day doing nothing but dummy smashing for hours on end. If you enter his house while he’s testing he will stop because he says that having another person in the house causes his DPS to drop. He has 12 toons over 100k DPS. He is the 1%. He’s the guy who tells you how easy it is to dynamically juggle every ability and action and doesn’t understand why everyone else can’t do what he does.

On top of everything else they’ve made the most powerful sets rely on LA weaving. That’s messed up. Now it’s even more important to push a button every 1 second.

I didn’t have to spend 20 years of practicing to be good at Guitar Hero. This is a game, not real life. I have an actual job and this shouldn’t be another one just to take part in the content.

ForzaRammer

Op is just wrong. Reaching mediocrity has not been this easy since summerset. It’s called heavy attack build.