Melee is so weak they are getting booted out of Dungeon Groups

Dita · May 2014

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO wrote: »

...Kicking people in ESO. That's pathetic. How can anyone take this game that seriously. Did they tell you how pro they are? Or how much talent it takes to play this game?...

If you are serious - you can have my babies !

Chryos · May 2014

The solution for this is to not group with Aholes who would kick you out of group. This is why you join a good guild. Let the other Aholes guild together. Find yourself a better class of people.

Reykice · May 2014

I agree with all of you but if your chosen build and way to play the game is simply not as good compared to other choices... what do you do then? Drag the Guild group you are in down or do you change your build and run a ranged magical build just so you can do as much as you can for the Guild?

They need to balance things so people are not forced between playing what they want and dragging the group down or playing a ranged magical dps build that they hate so they can be more effective and help the group.

DanteYoda · May 2014

After playing 3 of the 4 classes i will say i agree DPS is a joke, its neutered down so much i feel like i'm hitting crap with foam rubber...

Honestly Skills don't work, damage is pitiful and the game just enjoys cheap kills to keep up with their money sinks, i very much doubt i will ever bother with VR levels, i'll probably be long gone before then

Davngr · May 2014

melee damage is weak and incoming aoe damage for a nightblade is absurd, in both pvp and pve.

need to boost melee dps to at least slightly win out on single targets against ranged damage bow/sorc.

if you don't like parsing then don't play with people who like to parse. i like to use a parser and have only kicked people from the group when a "wall" is hit. Am I and the other two people in the group suppose to leave a dungeon unfinished because you don't know how to press buttons or care enough to outfit your character?

I frankly rather nightblade abilities get boost so that when used correctly, they do substantial single target damage. I am against just boosting melee damage and turning the nightblade class into an aoe spamer class like sorc/dk. I already have those alts when I feel like blowing stuff up

Allow group wide parsing, it's dumb to disable it.

When real raid content goes in, developers are going to find they're limited by the lack of tools available to raiders. Not being able to parse the entire raids damage/heals is going to put casual raiders in a situation where they won't be able to pinpoint who/what needs to improve to progress and high end players are going to become even more elitist than they had been in other games. Do to the fact that they won't be able to keep tabs on people, thus will have to find alternate, harsher ways to redact dead weight.

I know billy, tommy and tina all got gold medals at their 1/4 mile sprint but everyone could easily see tina was the superior athlete, even if they didn't show times!

Ruebs · May 2014

If you're doing 380DPS at VR8, then I'm sorry, you are sh*t.
I'd suggest getting some crit chance for melee. Maybe look into the 'Medium Armour' line and join a PvP campaign where your alliance is dominating, so you get the in game benefits from owning enemy keeps, Elder Scrolls ect...
My VR1 DragonKnight is doing about 550-600 dps @ 38% crit chance (+ whatever 'The Thief' gives you.)

Selodaoc · May 2014

NB only have a burst skill (veiled) After that the dmg is crap. By the time i kill 1 mob, my sorc friend has aoe spammed down 6 mobs. NB needs alot of love in both class and melee weapon dmg

wrlifeboil · May 2014

Always remember that end game is designed by elitists, for elitists. They are providing 'input' on the pts to the devs, shaping the game in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, and have been for months. I don't understand why others get so upset with one of the 'facts of life' in progression raiding. If your tanking/healing/dps sucks, you probably won't get into a good raid group unless you are being carried because you are friends with the raid leader or something.

I'm not into that (anymore) and the idea that end game is for the top 5-10% doesn't bother me. If I enjoy the content available to me in the game is fun, I'll stick around. If not, I'll unsub.

The 90% of players who feel excluded can take comfort in the fact that eventually the difficulty of the raid content will be nerfed and gear/spells will be buffed and you'll be able to get into Craglorn with a casual raid group.

wrlifeboil · May 2014

Ruebs wrote: »

If you're doing 380DPS at VR8, then I'm sorry, you are sh*t.
I'd suggest getting some crit chance for melee. Maybe look into the 'Medium Armour' line and join a PvP campaign where your alliance is dominating, so you get the in game benefits from owning enemy keeps, Elder Scrolls ect...
My VR1 DragonKnight is doing about 550-600 dps @ 38% crit chance (+ whatever 'The Thief' gives you.)

I think many dks and sorcs are going to find out that some of their builds aren't good for boss fights. They can rack up big dmg numbers on trash mob groups but their single target dps on the boss will suck. I seriously hope that ZOS has enrage timers on bosses in Craglorn.

aid9.21.78ub17_ESO · May 2014

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

The other thing is that a caster has no need for stamina while a melee user right now needs magicka as his class buffs and spells that work with his melee build use magicka and scale with magicka/spell damage and not with stamina/weapon damage. So you can see mages with 2200 magicka but you won`t see physical damage builds who can stack so much stamina as they must also increase their magicka to be able to use their class buffs.

I agree that this is one of the major issues, but not the only issue. I don't think you can make a build solely with stamina like you can with magicka with out gimping your character.
It is probably my biggest issue with this game.

Eris · May 2014

Leader: What is your DPS
Me: None of your business.
Leader: You can't come if DPS isn't over X.
Me: You aren't a very good leader if you only factor DPS.
Leader: What else is there?
Me: Brains, strategy, tactics, control, positioning, etc...
Leader: <Kicks from team>
Me: /whisper <leader> Oh and I'm all gold gear with gold enchants.
Leader: /invite <me>
Me: X to decline

Zabus · May 2014

I agree

ElliottXO · May 2014

laced wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I struggle through vet content on my broken NB, all I see around me are destruction staff users running into 4/5 mobs spamming impulse and killing everything in seconds. And they're going to make it stronger! O.o

Exactly my thoughts. It makes no sense....what so ever.

I've said it before and I do it again: we need a casting time on such AoE skills, which are so good that people spam it even for a single (!) mob. I've seen it. It's absurd.

Sakiri · May 2014

Why melee sucks:

Same thing in every game, Pinky. Because movement.

Anastasia · May 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »
...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?...

...Recount wasn't the issue in wow. All end game content revolved around doing certain amount of damage in a specific amount of time. If someone was under performing, the entire group would fail.

Gearscore was the problem because even if your gearscore was below the "threshold" that people wanted you could still do competitive dps, but people wouldn't invite you because you didn't get that RNG item drop to up your score.
That's what ruined the community...

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote:

How long do you think it will take before guilds make their own research and figure out(most already did) that ranged magic dps > all and begin to only take that into dungeons.(once the bash spam is fixed)

Sure in a Pug they won`t see your exact dps but they will know you are the weak link as a melee player and boot you first anyway. Its even worse like this as you might not be the lowest dps, maybe the ranged caster is a bad player but they can`t KNOW that without a DPS meter so they will just think its you since testing clearly shows ranger caster dps >>>> melee dps.

And if/when Zeni tinkers a little and brings up the melee damage a bit, next it will be another 'build' that isn't included in the best of the best groups.

Two huge divides and passionately felt beliefs of a very old disagreement on the importance of efficacy in group hunting/raiding.

I'd also love for this not to be the driving factor in TESO, much like I think having typed chat actually works fine for people who are doing their own work and only need a few tips as opposed to bringing along people who clearly need to practice more instead of jumping on voice com in many situations and being told exactly what to do, step by step as if its a recipe.

C'est la vie though, figured it would rear its ugly "informal but totally enforced dps level/gear piece requirements or you don't go with us" formula, and its usually not only for raiding force level fights. Pug's absolutely do it.
For recent examples, see last fall's re-release of FFXIV ARR. The 'random' endgame pick up groups were 90% requirement based. And in that game, you literally didn't progress your main story if you couldn't 'hack' the group requirements.

Here's hoping there are reasonable "requirements" in Tamriel PvE. We'll see.

Good thing I am playing for other reasons and find many ways to be kicked back about having fun in mmo's now, else I'd be right in there with the coming ragers about 'fairness' and all that.

;o/

vandefanel · May 2014

laced wrote: »

LazerusKI wrote: »

laced wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Here is hoping they do some serious balancing, because I use melee atm w/o magic aside from the Might Standard......

Also bugs me that weapon skills didn't get any ultimates......

Bow damage is not last when you learn to chainfire. partial charge, poison injection (release mouse button and injection at the same time which ive found is most easily accomplished with my naga less fluid when i tried to keyboard it but im sure it can work), shadowy disguise. repeat this ad nauseum, when stamina reaches around 15% turn siphoning strikes on, refill to full, turn it off, return to rotation. I promise you will do amazingly awesome damage.

KaccDalian · May 2014

Im NB and I cant keep up with the fall of HP. Of course, while there is mana and stamina I have a normal attack, but even considering their hells regeneration, and they end up ... everything. The boss is not convenient. and reset by exhaustion and a couple more skill-almost useless. And use either attacking or supporting skills alone does not make sense. [Promt translate]

KaccDalian · May 2014

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I struggle through vet content on my broken NB, all I see around me are destruction staff users running into 4/5 mobs spamming impulse and killing everything in seconds. And they're going to make it stronger! O.o

Yeah i have 2 mass skills and....need to use it 2-3 times. Mages use 1 skill 2 times and have no dmg. Yeah mages is mages but what point of melee if mages taking no dmg or used full healling many times.

Corithna · May 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

You should have seen some of the fights we had on the forums over all kinds of design decisions and how things worked out in game. But one thing that did seem to get some consensus, was the fact that group dps/hps meters while they do have their positive applications were also far too easy to abuse or simply misuse.

And then a few weeks prior to launch when the API restrictions were announced. Whoa what a major bashing our beta testers laid out on Zenimax despite the fact that it was clearly laid out prior to the creation of our group that this was the plan. It got so bad for a few days that some of our community were calling out the dev's on public forums during Q and A sessions. It was embarrassing to see really.

So yeah it really is just your own dps that a player can see. As for the situation where the melee player was kicked from group, most likely they simply wanted a buddy to join them and didn't want own up to that fact and instead told you that your dps wasn't high enough as an excuse.

Believe me, just being able to display your own buff's and debuffs with the U.I. was a major battle. I know some concessions must have been made as I can see some of the addons sporting features that were originally blocked. But, yeah ZOS has your back guys, they are committed to keeping things in a place that has broad appeal and not just cater to the mix/max crowd.

Malediktus · May 2014

You dont get booted out of a dungeon if you get kicked (unless it was changed in 1.06). So just keep following them. They have no choice to continue with you or start over

Reykice · May 2014

I know but that would really be mean...
I hope they will have time to look at the weapon sets and balance them out with magic, it would really solve a lot of problems.

Lox · May 2014

And herein lies the fundamental issue with any form of damage meters ... that being the people that use them as the sole factor.

Did you kill the boss?
Yes: Then your group is up to the job
No: Then something went wrong, in reality that is extremely unlikely to be 1 persons DPS.

Jade1986 · May 2014

vandefanel wrote: »

laced wrote: »

LazerusKI wrote: »

laced wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Here is hoping they do some serious balancing, because I use melee atm w/o magic aside from the Might Standard......

Also bugs me that weapon skills didn't get any ultimates......

Bow damage is not last when you learn to chainfire. partial charge, poison injection (release mouse button and injection at the same time which ive found is most easily accomplished with my naga less fluid when i tried to keyboard it but im sure it can work), shadowy disguise. repeat this ad nauseum, when stamina reaches around 15% turn siphoning strikes on, refill to full, turn it off, return to rotation. I promise you will do amazingly awesome damage.

Did you not read what I said? DK using no magic aside from the Dragon Standard. It should not be impossible to play a non magic user in a TES game. I would have preferred NOT to use that Dragon STandard, but they gave the weapon skill lines no ultimates, which just blows my mind. They pretty much FORCE you to use magic in this game.

Reevster · May 2014

Do we actually know that was the reason for booting from the group? There may have been other issues that we are not being told about as its all just one sides story posted here, there could be more too it then DPS , maybe that was the reason there used to kick him, not saying thats what happened but the others from that group are not here to comment and likely will never know the whole story.

Audigy · May 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Saerydoth wrote: »

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

Recount wasn't the issue in wow. All end game content revolved around doing certain amount of damage in a specific amount of time. If someone was under performing, the entire group would fail.

Gearscore was the problem because even if your gearscore was below the "threshold" that people wanted you could still do competitive dps, but people wouldn't invite you because you didn't get that RNG item drop to up your score.
That's what ruined the community.

You are wrong.

I did raid for many years at wow, as a tank and healer and I can assure you that those who think DPS was everything, are the biggest noobs I ever met in this game.

Our guild never relied on DPS meters and was among the best in the world, this says enough I think.

I don't know who started with recount and co. checks at the dolls, but this was the most stupid thing people ever did at wow. People did everything to get high numbers, they didn't move out of bad stuff, they didn't use intercept, no CC´s and then they wondered why they failed at a raid or a dungeon.

How often did I see in a pug raid the guy shouting for a kick of a lower DPS player, while in reality he was the problem himself. Not even once intercept, took more damage than I as a tank... seriously

These people never thought about their mistakes and poor performance, but instead of asking what they did wrong with their "DPS, DPS DPS moar, ya I roxxor the meter!", they asked Blizz for nerfs, so that raiding at wow became trivial and boring.

I can only say one thing, ZO never ever allow DPS meters. Its the worst thing in MMO history and will ruin any type of challenging group content and the positive atmosphere in the community.

Ragefist · May 2014

Sounds to me that OP generally got into group of WoWkids. In this game bosses have no enrage timers so DPS doesnt matter, sustainability and survival skills are by far more important

LazerusKI · May 2014

Ragefist wrote: »

Sounds to me that OP generally got into group of WoWkids. In this game bosses have no enrage timers so DPS doesnt matter, sustainability and survival skills are by far more important

actually i think they have.
some bosses use a pretty naste all destroying ability after a while.
dont know which dungeons these are: One golem collapses the whole cavern, or a kwama-warrior punches the groudn so that everyone takes damage and dies.

Knottypine · May 2014

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Hello everyone!

Both me and my friend want to play the same build but he has more time so he made it up to VR8... when he started grouping for Dungeons.

He managed to clear a few before finding a group that had a dps meter and after the 1st boss they told him to get better dps as he was lagging behind the other sorcerer - the other sorcerer was using his own hp to have mana and spam Crystal Fragments over and over from what it looked like.(i was at his place watching him play)

At the 2nd boss he got booted out because his 380 dps was too little(he had to move a bit) and they said they are bringing another ranged caster sorc to replace him.

Whether or not melee is too weak is only half the problem. The fact that he got booted because his DPS wasn't high enough for this group is the other half. No different from any other MMO.

I will most likely have difficulty grouping later on in dungeons as I'm also melee. Simply because my gaming isn't up to par with other players. And to think, if ZOS disallowed these "addons" they wouldn't have realized his DPS was lower and he would have enjoyed playing with the group and finished the dungeon with them. Allowing players to have the ability to play with addons they all love, comes at a price. (I currently don't use any)

Armitas · May 2014

Could some one give me some legitimate, non exceptional (avg case), single target, non bow/melee, boss parses. (looking for a stand and shoot parse, world bosses acceptable) I want to try my best to match that with a 2 hander. (regardless of what anyone says I am going to try my best to match it so please just answer the question)

I don't need proof just write a number that you think best represents the avg (finely tuned but typical) non melee/bow parse.

Endolith · May 2014

You'll find groups Knottypine. The kind of players the OP is taking about are in the minority, and we're taking total losers here to have the kind of emotional investment and self validation tied up in a video game.

I haven't had any trouble on DK or NB. Dungeons have been smooth from my perspective. But sometimes you're going to get people who are just learning, or haven't done many dungeons, or trying out something new. Last week on my low-level we ended up with a healer who had never healed in any MMO. I guess we died five times on that run. OK, it's a video game and our group was comprised of mature, reasonable people, not socially maladjusted children. People gave pointers, advised the guy on some strategy, and we made it through the dungeon.

I'll run a dungeon with people who are learning or not quite as good as others for as long as it takes. That's how they get better.