A fan of templar and the impact of U35

Rageypoo · August 2022

I'm relatively new to the game, just started about 2 months ago as a Warden doing PVE and PVP and it was a grind, the character and I didn't exactly fit and I understand why, I was new and sometimes it's hard to fit into any character when you are learning, so I switched to a DK because every guide and tuber was praising how amazing it was at PVP and I thought it would be a good way for me to learn so I put my focus on that. It was better than Warden, but still just as difficult to me, specially when I ventured out into PVE and trials after hitting 50, so i switched again and tried NB and just could not get it. I also tried sorc and loved the change, it started feeling right, but the leveling up grind was really difficult.

Eventually I met a friend who had a templar, and wow was I in love. He offered to help me replicate his build, which went a long way in putting the moves and damage into perspective, and once I had that baby at level 50, It finally felt right, it felt like home, and it motivated me for the first time to play the game. I enjoyed every day with her, finding skyshards and books, getting the gear and hoping to make it glitter in gold one day, I even did some trials with it, and I had a blast. This was it, I was hooked! Nothing felt better than it did with that character before this update, it was such a joy to blast through everything because I enjoyed playing the game, I didn't feel overpowered but I did feel strong, from AOE abilities and the coolest animated jabs made me feel like a Valkyrie, charging into poor PVP players, and stabbing world and dungeon bosses.

After the changes, it just didn't feel the same, I stopped playing her...I miss it. 1 bar isn't as fun anymore, 2 bar feels off, and the jabs are more than a little embarassing and feels so weird and underpowered. I don't do arenas at all anymore which is a bummer because I enjoyed them a lot, it feels like the rug was pulled right out from under me, I have heard others talk about their struggles with the game changing every few months, and I thought they were just being silly, but here I was feeling exactly what they felt, and it definitely bites.

I don't want this to get too long, I'm sure many of you feel the same as me, and a lot have expressed it already, just wanted to throw my hat in and share. I do hope they reconsider but from the looks of it, and their history of these updates, it's not looking good. It's very strange to think that this is what the game will be like every few months going forward, I switched back to nightblade and gave it a shot now that I'm experienced and can make better sense of the abilities, and while I do like my sneaky kitty, I have to admit I feel the loss of that templar. It makes me wonder, will I have to change characters again once they come after the next one I invest time in? I don't think I will have a lot of fun like that.

Thanks for reading, and my love to all the templar fans out there.

Hämähäkki · August 2022

Rageypoo wrote: »

Thanks for reading, and my love to all the templar fans out there.

markulrich1966 · August 2022

I'm on xbox so don't have U35 yet.

I play magplars since sorcerers got heavy nerfs maybe 2 years ago, but run many toons, so also try out all different kinds of combinations.
One I currently like as much as my magplar, is a 2-handed stamplar.

If the jabs are nerfed to much, I will replace them with a 2-hand skill like Dizzying Swing or Cleave.
Playstyle is lazy too. Use stampede for initial attack, jumping a long range to an enemy, causing also AOE damage around him.
Hit several times with Jabs/Dizzying Swing, a pretty strong single target damage. If I nead more AOE, I repeat stampede instead, you also could slot cleave that hits multiple targets in front of you.
Finally reverse slice when the enemy is below 50%, as execute.

This is an easy playstyle, keeping the simplicity of the templar, and you still can benefit from the class advantages like the heal, or repentance that fills up your health and stamina from dead bodys around you.

I hope this still work as well after U35 even if the jabs are nerfed, maybe it can help you to continue playing templar.

Sets I use: Rattlecage or Dreugh King Slayer for major brutality (if you drop jabs), New Moon Accolyte for more weapon damage, Sellistrix to stun enemies and add AOE creating an explosion beneath them.
Food: Orzogas Trifle Pocket (+5000 health, +500 stam recovery).

merpins · August 2022

Been playing since beta. I play maplestory, and that game is all about how your skills feel to use. You could be the most OP class, but if no one likes how a class feels to play, no one will play it (shoutout to cadena, blaster, and illium mains). So when I came into playing ESO, I had that same kind of mindset. If a skill doesn't feel good to use, I won't use that skill. For example, I don't use Cliff Racer from Warden because I hate how floaty it is, I don't play DK at all since none of its kit appeals to me, and I only play stam when I play sorc since its magicka skills don't feel fun to use for me.

I've been maining Templar since beta. Templar was my first character, and I did try all the classes in beta. I liked Templar most. My crafter is a templar, and was my first character. My second character I ever made is my main; I switched to it when I learned more about the game and how races effect your damage. I didn't want to change my OG character's race, so I made a new templar to main and made my old main a dedicated crafter. This was mid 2015 when I really started getting into min-maxing DPS characters.

Here's the thing. I main templar for Jabs. It's my favorite skill in the game; stamina or magicka, it doesn't matter to me. I like the skill, and ALWAYS came back to templar because Jabs was just so satisfying to use. It could do *** all damage, but I would still use that skill to death because I love it. I play other classes, have other characters I play regularly, but I always went back to Templar. I've mained templar since beta. I've been playing my main since mid 2015, but this change to jabs kills the skill for me. Like I said about maplestory; the new Jabs could do a million damage per second, but I will never use that skill because I absolutely hate how it feels to use and how it looks. The timing is wrong. It might as well be a completely new skill, not even jabs. What makes this worse is I'm now a professional animator, and when an animation is done poorly, I'll hate it. And the new jabs is not a good animation.

I've mained templar since beta. But with this change, I no longer main templar. And it really does suck.

Hämähäkki · August 2022

I really wonder, if the ZOS_Devs read all the posts and feedback people give them here in the forums. Did they respond at all yet?

merpins · August 2022

Hämähäkki wrote: »

I really wonder, if the ZOS_Devs read all the posts and feedback people give them here in the forums. Did they respond at all yet?

It's a job, so unless they have permission to respond to the forums, they're probably not allowed to. Especially when this kind of feedback happens; they were probably told explicitly to NOT say anything. I'd wager it's not even the devs fault but a higher up's fault, Rich or someone even higher up the food-chain, that made some kind of decision that effected the game poorly, and the devs were just doing their jobs. Probably. Unless it's a conspiracy and they all think their decisions are right, which I doubt.

Hämähäkki · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

someone even higher up the food-chain.

Like who? I would say they have to understand how this game works to make such decisions, so it has to be someone from the Dev-Team. I doubt that some shareholder comes up with this nonesense, or company manager

Dangranma_Burgrukgad · August 2022

markulrich1966 wrote: »

I'm on xbox so don't have U35 yet.

I play magplars since sorcerers got heavy nerfs maybe 2 years ago, but run many toons, so also try out all different kinds of combinations.
One I currently like as much as my magplar, is a 2-handed stamplar.

If the jabs are nerfed to much, I will replace them with a 2-hand skill like Dizzying Swing or Cleave.
.

Dizzy in PvP?
Channel time 0.8 secs > Channel time 8 secs in Cyrolag
I love chasing people with my maul mid air, wait, wait for me, let me dizzy you

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

New Jabs feels really very bad. I play templar as Alt character, but it really become some thing not comfortable to use. Do not like animation and with 4 ticks it feels and looks better. May be I was ok with 5 hits, but 3 with the last hit animation move looks just terrible

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2022

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

This skill was comfortable for overland content and PVP. I do not look on this skill only like as on parse dummy skill.

And skills animations feels better before for me. But I know, that some people do like new animation and how skill works now.

I had 100+k on dummy on my main character last patches, templar is my favorite Alt to play for pleasure.

Riptide · August 2022

Hämähäkki wrote: »

I really wonder, if the ZOS_Devs read all the posts and feedback people give them here in the forums. Did they respond at all yet?

If Twitter is any guide, some of the principals have been deep in the bubble of ESO’s most avid fans at ESOTavern in Germany the last bit, while others have been playing FFXIV intensely for the last couple of weeks, so there may not be what folks might think of as an “all hands on deck” sort of footing at the moment.

Billium813 · August 2022

Rageypoo wrote: »

... the jabs are more than a little embarassing and feels so weird and underpowered.

I feel this too. The damage is lower, sure, but in all honesty I just dislike the new animation and cadence. I had really grown accustom to the old jabs and it did "feel right". The new jabs is just bad. My templar main is just a heal bot now. Sadness.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

I had MA weaving down PAT with old jabs. It was reflexive and hard coded into my fingers. I can understand that knowing that might discredit me from providing real feedback on the new jabs since it might sound like I just have an ingrained disdain for a change given how much I used old jabs, but the animation is just bad imo. The rotation at the hip, the way the spear waggles when weaving (the spear appears out, then the pulled back in for the thrust?), how comical it looks on small characters, how quick the animation rushes through. It all feels wrong and bizarre knowing how it USED to look.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2022

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

This skill was comfortable for overland content and PVP. I do not look on this skill only like as on parse dummy skill.

And skills animations feels better before for me. But I know, that some people do like new animation and how skill works now.

I had 100+k on dummy on my main character last patches, templar is my favorite Alt to play for pleasure.

I think that is ultimately what I am getting at, even though you really didn't answer my question. I am generally going to be in the camp of, balance a skill in a competitive environment, and lazy jab spamming through overland, doesn't really fit the bill. From my perspective, getting this on the GCD is something that should have been done years ago.

I honestly typically avoid templar on dummy. Historically, the rotations have been pretty boring, mostly Jab spam, a bunch of slottables, and a handful of back bar skills. It has always been one of the easier classes to play, like any class, power has ebbed and flowed, but I didnt like how it was literally the one DPS spec that required different timing than the rest. Weaving the skill was not intuitive, with the timing or the animation. Say what you want about the new skill, it is much easier to weave now. If you weave on the GCD with muscle memory, the skill now fits. If you do it via watching the animation, again, the skill now fits.

If you are someone that just pressed jabs for the most part every second or so, yeah, its going to feel like a nerf.

kringled_1 · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

I haven't done a parse on Templar yet this patch but very few people are complaining about the tempo of the new animation itself. More of it appears to be centered on the visuals. Perfectly possible for the skill to be better suited to a rotation and look terrible at the same time.

Billium813 · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you do it via watching the animation, again, the skill now fits.

Imma hard disagree, I see no animation indication for weaving. The old animation was very clear for MA weaving as it gave a very small indication. I see nothing now and can't get the weaving to work.

StarOfElyon · August 2022

Rageypoo wrote: »

I'm relatively new to the game, just started about 2 months ago as a Warden doing PVE and PVP and it was a grind, the character and I didn't exactly fit and I understand why, I was new and sometimes it's hard to fit into any character when you are learning, so I switched to a DK because every guide and tuber was praising how amazing it was at PVP and I thought it would be a good way for me to learn so I put my focus on that. It was better than Warden, but still just as difficult to me, specially when I ventured out into PVE and trials after hitting 50, so i switched again and tried NB and just could not get it. I also tried sorc and loved the change, it started feeling right, but the leveling up grind was really difficult.

Eventually I met a friend who had a templar, and wow was I in love. He offered to help me replicate his build, which went a long way in putting the moves and damage into perspective, and once I had that baby at level 50, It finally felt right, it felt like home, and it motivated me for the first time to play the game. I enjoyed every day with her, finding skyshards and books, getting the gear and hoping to make it glitter in gold one day, I even did some trials with it, and I had a blast. This was it, I was hooked! Nothing felt better than it did with that character before this update, it was such a joy to blast through everything because I enjoyed playing the game, I didn't feel overpowered but I did feel strong, from AOE abilities and the coolest animated jabs made me feel like a Valkyrie, charging into poor PVP players, and stabbing world and dungeon bosses.

After the changes, it just didn't feel the same, I stopped playing her...I miss it. 1 bar isn't as fun anymore, 2 bar feels off, and the jabs are more than a little embarassing and feels so weird and underpowered. I don't do arenas at all anymore which is a bummer because I enjoyed them a lot, it feels like the rug was pulled right out from under me, I have heard others talk about their struggles with the game changing every few months, and I thought they were just being silly, but here I was feeling exactly what they felt, and it definitely bites.

I don't want this to get too long, I'm sure many of you feel the same as me, and a lot have expressed it already, just wanted to throw my hat in and share. I do hope they reconsider but from the looks of it, and their history of these updates, it's not looking good. It's very strange to think that this is what the game will be like every few months going forward, I switched back to nightblade and gave it a shot now that I'm experienced and can make better sense of the abilities, and while I do like my sneaky kitty, I have to admit I feel the loss of that templar. It makes me wonder, will I have to change characters again once they come after the next one I invest time in? I don't think I will have a lot of fun like that.

Thanks for reading, and my love to all the templar fans out there.

My first character was a Templar and it's still my main. Let me tell you, it's a training wheels class. What you're experiencing is the difficulty increasing. That is all.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2022

kringled_1 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

I haven't done a parse on Templar yet this patch but very few people are complaining about the tempo of the new animation itself. More of it appears to be centered on the visuals. Perfectly possible for the skill to be better suited to a rotation and look terrible at the same time.

Certainly true. I am generally going to always be in the camp of function over form, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to make both work.

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you do it via watching the animation, again, the skill now fits.

Imma hard disagree, I see no animation indication for weaving. The old animation was very clear for MA weaving as it gave a very small indication. I see nothing now and can't get the weaving to work.

Hmm. Not so sure. The old jabs was very unintuitive to weave. In my experience from helping players increase their DPS, most people waited far too long to weave it.

Far and away the best way to do it was to simply stare at a cooldown bar, which I really dont like to do (also not an option on console as far as I know). Only other skill I do that with is hardcast frags, and dont get me started on how much I hate using hardcast frags as a spammable. Visually, you basically had to time your LA weave between the third and forth jab to weave as fast as possible, on the new skill, it seems you can let it mostly do its thing and cast the LA right at the end. The old jabs would almost seem to speed up if you were really weaving on pace, but mostly, I found it frustrating to actually fit into a parse from the standpoint of GCDs or pace. PACE is everything in a DPS parse.

More importantly to me, now i dont even have to watch it. I use the same timing as every other skill, and it weaves perfectly. Again, they might have hit the damage too hard, but getting it onto the GCD I think was the right move.

xthrshx · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

Yes. Weaving jabs took a little practice, but it really wasn’t that difficult. The new animation doesn’t help anything. And even if shortening the animation time were helpful, that doesn’t excuse the atrocious new design and the insulting use of a Nighthollow staff.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2022

xthrshx wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

Yes. Weaving jabs took a little practice, but it really wasn’t that difficult. The new animation doesn’t help anything. And even if shortening the animation time were helpful, that doesn’t excuse the atrocious new design and the insulting use of a Nighthollow staff.

It certainly was an outlier in terms of weaving timing, and generally, I am a fan of consistency. I am not going to go down the rabbit hole of being "insulted" by an animation change. lol.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Rageypoo wrote: »

I'm relatively new to the game, just started about 2 months ago as a Warden doing PVE and PVP and it was a grind, the character and I didn't exactly fit and I understand why, I was new and sometimes it's hard to fit into any character when you are learning, so I switched to a DK because every guide and tuber was praising how amazing it was at PVP and I thought it would be a good way for me to learn so I put my focus on that. It was better than Warden, but still just as difficult to me, specially when I ventured out into PVE and trials after hitting 50, so i switched again and tried NB and just could not get it. I also tried sorc and loved the change, it started feeling right, but the leveling up grind was really difficult.

Eventually I met a friend who had a templar, and wow was I in love. He offered to help me replicate his build, which went a long way in putting the moves and damage into perspective, and once I had that baby at level 50, It finally felt right, it felt like home, and it motivated me for the first time to play the game. I enjoyed every day with her, finding skyshards and books, getting the gear and hoping to make it glitter in gold one day, I even did some trials with it, and I had a blast. This was it, I was hooked! Nothing felt better than it did with that character before this update, it was such a joy to blast through everything because I enjoyed playing the game, I didn't feel overpowered but I did feel strong, from AOE abilities and the coolest animated jabs made me feel like a Valkyrie, charging into poor PVP players, and stabbing world and dungeon bosses.

After the changes, it just didn't feel the same, I stopped playing her...I miss it. 1 bar isn't as fun anymore, 2 bar feels off, and the jabs are more than a little embarassing and feels so weird and underpowered. I don't do arenas at all anymore which is a bummer because I enjoyed them a lot, it feels like the rug was pulled right out from under me, I have heard others talk about their struggles with the game changing every few months, and I thought they were just being silly, but here I was feeling exactly what they felt, and it definitely bites.

I don't want this to get too long, I'm sure many of you feel the same as me, and a lot have expressed it already, just wanted to throw my hat in and share. I do hope they reconsider but from the looks of it, and their history of these updates, it's not looking good. It's very strange to think that this is what the game will be like every few months going forward, I switched back to nightblade and gave it a shot now that I'm experienced and can make better sense of the abilities, and while I do like my sneaky kitty, I have to admit I feel the loss of that templar. It makes me wonder, will I have to change characters again once they come after the next one I invest time in? I don't think I will have a lot of fun like that.

Thanks for reading, and my love to all the templar fans out there.

My first character was a Templar and it's still my main. Let me tell you, it's a training wheels class. What you're experiencing is the difficulty increasing. That is all.

It is certainly a training wheels class. You can literally clear just about every piece of overland and both vet arenas by just spamming jabs, lol. Only other class skill you might be able to say that about is swallow soul, but if a one button class is the goal, templar was in first place by a mile.

This change absolutely made the class more difficult as it requires a good light attack weave to be at roughly the same level of single target DPS you were at without one last patch. I like that change functionally, but I weave every skill I cast in this game, and again, not sure I find it consistent with wanting to raise the floor. Templar (and sorc, the other training wheels class if there are 2), both just got a bit harder to play. Sorc now requires very good uptime on Daedric prey. As short duration skill, that is difficult for a lot of players.

Billium813 · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It is certainly a training wheels class. You can literally clear just about every piece of overland and both vet arenas by just spamming jabs, lol. Only other class skill you might be able to say that about is swallow soul, but if a one button class is the goal, templar was in first place by a mile.

Yes, Jabs is an AOE, and that's WHY it's susceptible to overuse. Spammable + AOE = clears trash, agreed. But there are loads of abilities new players spam their way through the game with. Whirling Blade? Flurry? Acid Spray? Jabs has just become one of the most iconic and that is almost entirely because the damage and utility was so high. That, and since it is a class ability, of course Templars are going to use it. Other classes resort to weapon spammables, but they drop off at higher levels. Templar is a class ability and it doesn't drop off. They'v been propping it up for years as the linchpin of the whole class (other than heals).

One morph gives Major Brutality/Savagery (changed recently/important) and the other is a personal heal that lets you solo 90% of the game! Both morphs are basically the full package when you combine high damage in! AOE, good damage, stuns, cheap, heals/buffs. They built the thing to be a one-stop-shop to be spammed! You run Deadly Strike TO BUFF JABS! The whole class feels built around it!

Has Jabs been too strong (damage-wise) for a long time? Sure, it needed to be reigned in. They have reduced the damage and that's fine. The AOE portion of the skill almost felt like it wasn't being accounted for so Jabs was good Single Target and Multi Target! I think almost no one is arguing that the nerf to damage wasn't warranted. They wanted to make Jabs more of a lower for single target but high for large groups skill like it should be. Fine. But there are plenty of non-templar ways to spam your way through the game.

kilroy5250 · August 2022

The animation is the worst for me. And the "spear" staff. Should look like Aedric Power. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

deleted221205-002626 · August 2022

kilroy5250 wrote: »

The animation is the worst for me. And the "spear" staff. Should look like Aedric Power. [snip]

The new spear isnt bad from any other angle but yur own! for some odd reason it has a thicc wonky tip from the player view but the rest its fine!

[edited to remove quote]

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2022

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It is certainly a training wheels class. You can literally clear just about every piece of overland and both vet arenas by just spamming jabs, lol. Only other class skill you might be able to say that about is swallow soul, but if a one button class is the goal, templar was in first place by a mile.

Yes, Jabs is an AOE, and that's WHY it's susceptible to overuse. Spammable + AOE = clears trash, agreed. But there are loads of abilities new players spam their way through the game with. Whirling Blade? Flurry? Acid Spray? Jabs has just become one of the most iconic and that is almost entirely because the damage and utility was so high. That, and since it is a class ability, of course Templars are going to use it. Other classes resort to weapon spammables, but they drop off at higher levels. Templar is a class ability and it doesn't drop off. They'v been propping it up for years as the linchpin of the whole class (other than heals).

One morph gives Major Brutality/Savagery (changed recently/important) and the other is a personal heal that lets you solo 90% of the game! Both morphs are basically the full package when you combine high damage in! AOE, good damage, stuns, cheap, heals/buffs. They built the thing to be a one-stop-shop to be spammed! You run Deadly Strike TO BUFF JABS! The whole class feels built around it!

Has Jabs been too strong (damage-wise) for a long time? Sure, it needed to be reigned in. They have reduced the damage and that's fine. The AOE portion of the skill almost felt like it wasn't being accounted for so Jabs was good Single Target and Multi Target! I think almost no one is arguing that the nerf to damage wasn't warranted. They wanted to make Jabs more of a lower for single target but high for large groups skill like it should be. Fine. But there are plenty of non-templar ways to spam your way through the game.

Yeah, you definitely have more options these days for a one button spammables, especially with things like pale order and CP that heals on damage. That is really why Jabs (or I guess, really sweeps, magic morph) was so OP as a one button build. High ST, good cleave, but it was the self heal that really made it work. A one button build has to provide heals.

So let me ask you this. Lets say they took the old animation, removed the 4th hit, lowered the cast time to .8 seconds, but other wise, it looked pretty much the same with a bit less damage. Would there be this much rage on the forums?

I could honestly care less what the spear looks like. I just want to be able to properly weave it within the GCD, so from that perspective, i like what they did. And if it is the training wheels class, should we at least have people learning an appropiate pace for literally every other rotation in the game? I have always thought that was a problem with templar. If you play any other class at the pace of the old jabs, you are going to pull terrible DPS.

I am just trying to understand the real source of the anger. LOL. (and maybe try to provide some logic for doing what they did).

stevenyaub16_ESO · August 2022

Those who have been with the game for a long time will know every class (except necro) has been at the bottom of the pile and unplayed during a patch or even entire expansion.

You either adapt or find another class. I for example really enjoyed DK asylum staff build years ago (I hated whip). But that got nerfed and I shelved that character since.

Now it's wardens time to hibernate but I've always managed to find a build I enjoy with this class, some may not and probably quit for now (ice wardens).

Adapt or quit, that is the way of ESO.

Agenericname · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

Now, they might have taken a bit too much off the damage, jury is still out on that, but it is a drastic improvement to be able to weave a templars main spammable within the GCD and not lose pace on your rotation.

Syncing the animation and ability duration is nice. It does make weaving more consistent.

The animation itself leaves a lot to be desired, and coupled with the nerfs, its not a great change overall.

I find that I am more consistent with light attacks now, but, its not really noticeable since the overall damage is lower. Now Im hitting more lights for less damage. While a damage nerf may be healthy, it feels like the effort is wasted.

haelgaan · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Serious question for people that hate the new jabs, no judging, just curious? Did you LA weave the skill previously? What kind of pace where you capable of for a Dummy parse?

101k parse was my best Templar parse pre U35, and I had no problem weaving with the classic jabs. Templar was my go-to for vTrials, and was my favorite class to play.

I haven't played him other than crafting writs since U35. The idea of flipping jabs for Blazing Spear spam is disheartening, to say the least - a DPS Templar without Jabs is not a Templar.

No one asked for these changes, especially the horrid animation. ZOS solved a problem that did not exist.

Billium813 · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

So let me ask you this. Lets say they took the old animation, removed the 4th hit, lowered the cast time to .8 seconds, but other wise, it looked pretty much the same with a bit less damage. Would there be this much rage on the forums?

I can only speak for myself; I can't provide a final answer to what would placate everyone who now dislikes the new Jabs. I play Templar main and sometimes DK tanking.

For me, I never had any issue MA weaving Jabs. The old animation / timing had visual queues for weaving that were key. The new speed, animation, and hit number messes all that up. Maybe it'll be fine in the long run, but for people who got used to it for 6+ years, it sucks and ZOS didn't appreciate that. I would have been fine with them reducing the AOE area so it hits less wide/far, or reducing the damage, or changing buffs, or even removing the heal and making Puncturing Sweep do something new. But changing the channel time and the number of hits completely messed up the FEEL of the skill for me. Then, add on a crappy animation that looks totally janky (dat weaving waggle) compared to the original and I feel like they slapped me in the face.

Perhaps you are right that old Jabs timing was different than all the other classes and made weaving different (harder? impossible?). As someone who rotates alts and wants to be perfect on all classes, perhaps that has always irk'd you about Templar and now everything is in line for you. Gratz to you who has their universe in line now. Now you can tell your new players to play Templar for a couple months until you graduate them to your Trials group and give them a Sorc build

I would ask, why is it important that all classes be the same (or close to) on their GCD?

You seem to be stuck in the thought that Templar players should be able to graduate to big boy classes someday and ditch the Templar "training wheels". You already have it stuck in your mind that players should be able to migrate from one class to the next and there be no real difference. Why is it bad that a class have different timings? I'm sure there are loads of Templar players that weaved perfectly fine. Why is it important that those players should be able to switch to NB DPS or Sorc DPS at the drop of a hat and still have all the timings and weave perfectly because all classes are united in their GCD? Sounds like an end-game, trials mindset which is difficult to look beyond if you are stuck there. Or maybe you are just overly reliant on an addon.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I could honestly care less what the spear looks like. I just want to be able to properly weave it within the GCD, so from that perspective, i like what they did.

I think this speaks volumes about you and how you play ESO. Not to say there is anything wrong with this though, but it seems you are coming at this from a Trials / end game background. You probably have several alts and swap between them all the time, depending on the content / group needs. You might even run a guild or raid group, suggesting players play specific classes or organizing groups, and coaching players. I could be wrong, just a feeling.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

And if it is the training wheels class, should we at least have people learning an appropiate pace for literally every other rotation in the game? I have always thought that was a problem with templar. If you play any other class at the pace of the old jabs, you are going to pull terrible DPS

Why does Templar need to be "the training wheels" class? Why does any class need that kind of stigma? I agree that Jabs was overpowered and naturally lead to spam for what it was, but I wouldn't say any class is "training wheels". That implies someday the Templar player should "grow up" and migrate to a REAL class that doesn't hold your hand.

I would say all classes should have a learning curve IN their class. Jabs, unfortunately, was/is good from start to finish. That is more a problem with its whole design (AOE + Good DMG + cheap + heal/buff) than anything else. Hence the current (can it be "old" now?) stereotype of being a "one-button", Jabs spamming, newb training wheels class. That hurts anyone who wants to play Templar. Stop thinking of an entire class as just training for players to switch to other classes. Let them be their own thing. Advocate for changes to balance their damage, sure, but they can be their own thing.

StarOfElyon · August 2022

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

So let me ask you this. Lets say they took the old animation, removed the 4th hit, lowered the cast time to .8 seconds, but other wise, it looked pretty much the same with a bit less damage. Would there be this much rage on the forums?

I can only speak for myself; I can't provide a final answer to what would placate everyone who now dislikes the new Jabs. I play Templar main and sometimes DK tanking.

For me, I never had any issue MA weaving Jabs. The old animation / timing had visual queues for weaving that were key. The new speed, animation, and hit number messes all that up. Maybe it'll be fine in the long run, but for people who got used to it for 6+ years, it sucks and ZOS didn't appreciate that. I would have been fine with them reducing the AOE area so it hits less wide/far, or reducing the damage, or changing buffs, or even removing the heal and making Puncturing Sweep do something new. But changing the channel time and the number of hits completely messed up the FEEL of the skill for me. Then, add on a crappy animation that looks totally janky (dat weaving waggle) compared to the original and I feel like they slapped me in the face.

Perhaps you are right that old Jabs timing was different than all the other classes and made weaving different (harder? impossible?). As someone who rotates alts and wants to be perfect on all classes, perhaps that has always irk'd you about Templar and now everything is in line for you. Gratz to you who has their universe in line now. Now you can tell your new players to play Templar for a couple months until you graduate them to your Trials group and give them a Sorc build

I would ask, why is it important that all classes be the same (or close to) on their GCD?

You seem to be stuck in the thought that Templar players should be able to graduate to big boy classes someday and ditch the Templar "training wheels". You already have it stuck in your mind that players should be able to migrate from one class to the next and there be no real difference. Why is it bad that a class have different timings? I'm sure there are loads of Templar players that weaved perfectly fine. Why is it important that those players should be able to switch to NB DPS or Sorc DPS at the drop of a hat and still have all the timings and weave perfectly because all classes are united in their GCD? Sounds like an end-game, trials mindset which is difficult to look beyond if you are stuck there. Or maybe you are just overly reliant on an addon.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I could honestly care less what the spear looks like. I just want to be able to properly weave it within the GCD, so from that perspective, i like what they did.

I think this speaks volumes about you and how you play ESO. Not to say there is anything wrong with this though, but it seems you are coming at this from a Trials / end game background. You probably have several alts and swap between them all the time, depending on the content / group needs. You might even run a guild or raid group, suggesting players play specific classes or organizing groups, and coaching players. I could be wrong, just a feeling.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

And if it is the training wheels class, should we at least have people learning an appropiate pace for literally every other rotation in the game? I have always thought that was a problem with templar. If you play any other class at the pace of the old jabs, you are going to pull terrible DPS

Why does Templar need to be "the training wheels" class? Why does any class need that kind of stigma? I agree that Jabs was overpowered and naturally lead to spam for what it was, but I wouldn't say any class is "training wheels". That implies someday the Templar player should "grow up" and migrate to a REAL class that doesn't hold your hand.

I would say all classes should have a learning curve IN their class. Jabs, unfortunately, was/is good from start to finish. That is more a problem with its whole design (AOE + Good DMG + cheap + heal/buff) than anything else. Hence the current (can it be "old" now?) stereotype of being a "one-button", Jabs spamming, newb training wheels class. That hurts anyone who wants to play Templar. Stop thinking of an entire class as just training for players to switch to other classes. Let them be their own thing. Advocate for changes to balance their damage, sure, but they can be their own thing.

It's a training wheels class because it's so basic and easy. They have almost everything they need (after the recent buff) except they're still slow. You have a decent spammable that heals you, great burst heals, and a low cost ultimate that slaps. It's all about the difficulty to play; Templars are the easiest to play. They were, at least. We'll see where they land after the sweeps nerf. I'm not opposed to this change though because I do believe the class relied too much on one button.

virtus753 · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It is certainly a training wheels class. You can literally clear just about every piece of overland and both vet arenas by just spamming jabs, lol. Only other class skill you might be able to say that about is swallow soul, but if a one button class is the goal, templar was in first place by a mile.

Yes, Jabs is an AOE, and that's WHY it's susceptible to overuse. Spammable + AOE = clears trash, agreed. But there are loads of abilities new players spam their way through the game with. Whirling Blade? Flurry? Acid Spray? Jabs has just become one of the most iconic and that is almost entirely because the damage and utility was so high. That, and since it is a class ability, of course Templars are going to use it. Other classes resort to weapon spammables, but they drop off at higher levels. Templar is a class ability and it doesn't drop off. They'v been propping it up for years as the linchpin of the whole class (other than heals).

One morph gives Major Brutality/Savagery (changed recently/important) and the other is a personal heal that lets you solo 90% of the game! Both morphs are basically the full package when you combine high damage in! AOE, good damage, stuns, cheap, heals/buffs. They built the thing to be a one-stop-shop to be spammed! You run Deadly Strike TO BUFF JABS! The whole class feels built around it!

Has Jabs been too strong (damage-wise) for a long time? Sure, it needed to be reigned in. They have reduced the damage and that's fine. The AOE portion of the skill almost felt like it wasn't being accounted for so Jabs was good Single Target and Multi Target! I think almost no one is arguing that the nerf to damage wasn't warranted. They wanted to make Jabs more of a lower for single target but high for large groups skill like it should be. Fine. But there are plenty of non-templar ways to spam your way through the game.

Yeah, you definitely have more options these days for a one button spammables, especially with things like pale order and CP that heals on damage. That is really why Jabs (or I guess, really sweeps, magic morph) was so OP as a one button build. High ST, good cleave, but it was the self heal that really made it work. A one button build has to provide heals.

So let me ask you this. Lets say they took the old animation, removed the 4th hit, lowered the cast time to .8 seconds, but other wise, it looked pretty much the same with a bit less damage. Would there be this much rage on the forums?

I could honestly care less what the spear looks like. I just want to be able to properly weave it within the GCD, so from that perspective, i like what they did. And if it is the training wheels class, should we at least have people learning an appropiate pace for literally every other rotation in the game? I have always thought that was a problem with templar. If you play any other class at the pace of the old jabs, you are going to pull terrible DPS.

I am just trying to understand the real source of the anger. LOL. (and maybe try to provide some logic for doing what they did).

The pace of jabs was fine. I could weave it at 0.08s, not too much worse than other skills, and I’m hardly the best out there.

Your question is not clear to me. Are you asking if *all* the changes had still been implemented except the animation, would we still have seen this outrage? Some, most definitely; as much, certainly not. Exactly how much in between is impossible to define. For some people the animation will be the bigger issue; for others, it’s the fact that they completely neutered a skill and its synergy rather than balancing them. To me, the animation is terrible, but it is a bigger issue that Jabs no longer feels fit for purpose as a class-defining spammable, unless ZOS wants to define the class as the one that takes out the trash.

You may have alluded to this in your question, although it isn’t quite clear to me, but there are two critical changes that must be mentioned explicitly in addition to the loss of the one hit and the channel time changing to 0.8s. First, the damage of each of the remaining three hits was further nerfed by 21%, along with a comment that shows that the combat team really doesn’t understand that the 1.0s channel time wasn’t worth a 21% nerf. We can’t cast Jabs any more frequently than once per second either way, so lowering the channel time by 20% doesn’t merit a dps loss of 21% on top of the 25% missing hit in a misguided attempt to “make up” for that. Second, Burning Light, which Jabs reliably procced, has been nerfed by ~67%, further removing the power of the skill and its ability to do anything close to reasonable damage.

Instead of taking a reasonable amount of power out of Jabs and Burning Light, they nerfed Jabs by 40% and Burning Light by 67%. I don’t understand how numbers that high were ever considered to be implemented at once. You don’t balance something by nearly halving the damage. Worse, they chose to partially compensate for that egregious nerf by buffing the class execute by nearly 25% (and more for the execute element), which means the class is now defined and powered by a skill with only magicka morphs that is to designed to come into play only at lower health values. (No, I don’t want one of those morphs to be stam. I’m pointing out that class identity is even more precarious in a number of ways now.) That execute now hits ridiculously hard when circumstances line up right. I feel like I’m cheating when it takes 13k in a single tick (not cast - tick) against my partner in a duel, but I need all sorts of luck getting there because my actual spammable has been gutted in favor of overloading a skill that’s even worse at full health than Jabs. What I’d like to see is balance, and a kind of balance that does not involve getting up from one side of the seesaw and sitting on the other expecting things to level out.

mmtaniac · August 2022

New jabs need new animation to be good , and some damage buff this is only spammable that is countered by major evasion wchich is -25% damage compared to major protection 10% this is huge. With all defense buffs jabs are become tickles no damage , warden shalks are something like templar potl and can't be purged from target but potl can be purged. Jabs are effective only with giant armor penetration you need at least 18k without it they tickles even more.