A fan of templar and the impact of U35

zaria

Its just one thing to do

Vexen

I really hate the new animation. I'm still playing templar because it's still the class I enjoy the most - even with that animation. I can still do around 96k with jabs. I know I could do more if I spammed shards over and over but that's just........ridiculous. That's what 35 made - shardplars.

Did I mention I hate the animation? So did other people. That's what's bothering me - the fact that customer feedback was ignored about the animation on PTS, and will likely be ignored here. (amongst other things)

I guess people will tell me to just leave if I don't like it. /shrug.

Billium813

Vexen wrote: »

I know I could do more if I spammed shards over and over but that's just........ridiculous. That's what 35 made - shardplars.

Iv seen this already. My Templar healer (now my main) can do 20-30% of the DPS spamming shards xD. I laugh, but it's really not that funny.

Vexen wrote: »

I guess people will tell me to just leave if I don't like it. /shrug.

I think this is the worst result of changes to games. I see this in other games I used to enjoy (*cough* MtG *cough*) too. Having a game you have played for YEARS (6+!) make arbitrary changes, like animations, based on dubious reasons. Most of the time it's advocating for some fictional new player base, based on player feedback from players that have like 10 hours of game play. And the answer you get back is "go away, this game isn't for you anymore". I digress.

I just WANT to be heard and I want my feedback to ZOS to be seen and counted. If I voice my opinion and I am still out voted, fine. But I worry that game devs aren't hearing all the opinions, or are making decisions on changes purely based on their own misguided opinions without considering who actually plays this game. I just want more information than 2 sentences saying "we decided to change this because we think it looks better".

IMO, game feedback can be a catch 22. I don't say things in ZONE chat or in GUILD chat because the indifferent players, that are just tired of hearing those that care complain, just say "that sounds like a 'you' problem" or "maybe it's time for you to leave then" or "well, maybe this game isn't for you anymore". So I come to the forums in hopes that some dev may hear my opinion and take my criticism under consideration. I just worry that these forum discussions sound like such an echo chamber that the opinions expressed here are dismissed without consideration. It's all I can hope for though.

xthrshx

Just give us jabs back. No one wanted any of this.

Oakenaxe

I main Templar and tbh I'm fine with U35. The only thing I dislike is the new jabs animation, but just because they decided to put the Nighthollow style in it. Makes no sense a Templar summon a vampiric weapon in an Aedric Spear abillity. Poorly thought.

rexagamemnon

Virtually everything about U35 is bad, and what ZOS did to templar is by far the worst combat changes in the history of the game

peacenote

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It is certainly a training wheels class. You can literally clear just about every piece of overland and both vet arenas by just spamming jabs, lol. Only other class skill you might be able to say that about is swallow soul, but if a one button class is the goal, templar was in first place by a mile.

Yes, Jabs is an AOE, and that's WHY it's susceptible to overuse. Spammable + AOE = clears trash, agreed. But there are loads of abilities new players spam their way through the game with. Whirling Blade? Flurry? Acid Spray? Jabs has just become one of the most iconic and that is almost entirely because the damage and utility was so high. That, and since it is a class ability, of course Templars are going to use it. Other classes resort to weapon spammables, but they drop off at higher levels. Templar is a class ability and it doesn't drop off. They'v been propping it up for years as the linchpin of the whole class (other than heals).

One morph gives Major Brutality/Savagery (changed recently/important) and the other is a personal heal that lets you solo 90% of the game! Both morphs are basically the full package when you combine high damage in! AOE, good damage, stuns, cheap, heals/buffs. They built the thing to be a one-stop-shop to be spammed! You run Deadly Strike TO BUFF JABS! The whole class feels built around it!

Has Jabs been too strong (damage-wise) for a long time? Sure, it needed to be reigned in. They have reduced the damage and that's fine. The AOE portion of the skill almost felt like it wasn't being accounted for so Jabs was good Single Target and Multi Target! I think almost no one is arguing that the nerf to damage wasn't warranted. They wanted to make Jabs more of a lower for single target but high for large groups skill like it should be. Fine. But there are plenty of non-templar ways to spam your way through the game.

Yeah, you definitely have more options these days for a one button spammables, especially with things like pale order and CP that heals on damage. That is really why Jabs (or I guess, really sweeps, magic morph) was so OP as a one button build. High ST, good cleave, but it was the self heal that really made it work. A one button build has to provide heals.

So let me ask you this. Lets say they took the old animation, removed the 4th hit, lowered the cast time to .8 seconds, but other wise, it looked pretty much the same with a bit less damage. Would there be this much rage on the forums?

I could honestly care less what the spear looks like. I just want to be able to properly weave it within the GCD, so from that perspective, i like what they did. And if it is the training wheels class, should we at least have people learning an appropiate pace for literally every other rotation in the game? I have always thought that was a problem with templar. If you play any other class at the pace of the old jabs, you are going to pull terrible DPS.

I am just trying to understand the real source of the anger. LOL. (and maybe try to provide some logic for doing what they did).

There is probably multiple sources for the anger.

But this is the best analogy I have for where I'm at with these changes... jabs in particular.

Let's say you have had the same best friend for 30 years. You've known them through ... everything. But, like anyone, they aren't perfect and you have had fights over the years over annoying habits, differences in beliefs, etc. If suddenly your best friend's personality was altered significantly so that everything that ever annoyed you about them was gone, would you ACTUALLY be thrilled and not miss the little things that made your friend unique?

It boggles my mind that ESO basically makes bank because of nostalgia on the Elder Scrolls franchise, and yet the devs don't seem to understand that sometimes something less than "perfect" can be beloved and a change to it won't be embraced simply because it ruins what people enjoyed about it in the first place. There are things like charm, attractiveness, fun, and style which are subjective.

Yes, sometimes people are afraid of change. But one can also have a desire to keep a familiar friend without automatically being some kind of blind, crazy person who rejects all progress.

I love MMOs and understand that regular balance changes are necessary for the genre. But it's come to the point where I feel like I need to make a list of all the things I LIKE in ESO and then I need to go obnoxiously repeat on the forums, on Twitter, on reddit, and in emails to ZOS, how much I like these things just for a chance of having them stay in the game. Obviously I won't do that, but how awful is it to be in a place where I have zero trust that things that are great about the game will be preserved?

Change something as iconic and as much of a cornerstone as jabs is, and you'd BETTER make sure it's the most awesome fantastic change in the history of changes, or else most people won't like it. Because they already liked it for 8 years so that's a tough bar to raise.

And I'm there. Templar is my main and was my first class and is my favorite class. I care not at all if it's because it's "easy" or what. I love it. I don't care if the new jabs/sweeps is easier to weave. I hate that it doesn't look or feel or play at all like the ability that helped me come to love the templar and kept me logging in all these years.

And that's what so many of the sledgehammer changes have felt like to me, lately. The vampire re-work removed EVERYTHING I enjoyed about vampirism. AwA ripped away years of nostalgia and things I NEVER thought we'd lose, like normal map progress per character. Now this templar ability change. I'm all for progress but this is not progress, to me. I half expect the next patch to force us to rename all of our characters, or force a reset of all designed houses, or remove a class, or something. Nothing seems sacred.

Not sure how broadly this will resonate but it is how I'm best able to describe why I'm angry and sad that the templar spammable was gutted.

Hapexamendios

I've been mainly using a magplar for my DPS. I'm going to start using a magblade next week most likely.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

So let me ask you this. Lets say they took the old animation, removed the 4th hit, lowered the cast time to .8 seconds, but other wise, it looked pretty much the same with a bit less damage. Would there be this much rage on the forums?

I can only speak for myself; I can't provide a final answer to what would placate everyone who now dislikes the new Jabs. I play Templar main and sometimes DK tanking.

For me, I never had any issue MA weaving Jabs. The old animation / timing had visual queues for weaving that were key. The new speed, animation, and hit number messes all that up. Maybe it'll be fine in the long run, but for people who got used to it for 6+ years, it sucks and ZOS didn't appreciate that. I would have been fine with them reducing the AOE area so it hits less wide/far, or reducing the damage, or changing buffs, or even removing the heal and making Puncturing Sweep do something new. But changing the channel time and the number of hits completely messed up the FEEL of the skill for me. Then, add on a crappy animation that looks totally janky (dat weaving waggle) compared to the original and I feel like they slapped me in the face.

Perhaps you are right that old Jabs timing was different than all the other classes and made weaving different (harder? impossible?). As someone who rotates alts and wants to be perfect on all classes, perhaps that has always irk'd you about Templar and now everything is in line for you. Gratz to you who has their universe in line now. Now you can tell your new players to play Templar for a couple months until you graduate them to your Trials group and give them a Sorc build

I would ask, why is it important that all classes be the same (or close to) on their GCD?

You seem to be stuck in the thought that Templar players should be able to graduate to big boy classes someday and ditch the Templar "training wheels". You already have it stuck in your mind that players should be able to migrate from one class to the next and there be no real difference. Why is it bad that a class have different timings? I'm sure there are loads of Templar players that weaved perfectly fine. Why is it important that those players should be able to switch to NB DPS or Sorc DPS at the drop of a hat and still have all the timings and weave perfectly because all classes are united in their GCD? Sounds like an end-game, trials mindset which is difficult to look beyond if you are stuck there. Or maybe you are just overly reliant on an addon.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I could honestly care less what the spear looks like. I just want to be able to properly weave it within the GCD, so from that perspective, i like what they did.

I think this speaks volumes about you and how you play ESO. Not to say there is anything wrong with this though, but it seems you are coming at this from a Trials / end game background. You probably have several alts and swap between them all the time, depending on the content / group needs. You might even run a guild or raid group, suggesting players play specific classes or organizing groups, and coaching players. I could be wrong, just a feeling.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

And if it is the training wheels class, should we at least have people learning an appropiate pace for literally every other rotation in the game? I have always thought that was a problem with templar. If you play any other class at the pace of the old jabs, you are going to pull terrible DPS

Why does Templar need to be "the training wheels" class? Why does any class need that kind of stigma? I agree that Jabs was overpowered and naturally lead to spam for what it was, but I wouldn't say any class is "training wheels". That implies someday the Templar player should "grow up" and migrate to a REAL class that doesn't hold your hand.

I would say all classes should have a learning curve IN their class. Jabs, unfortunately, was/is good from start to finish. That is more a problem with its whole design (AOE + Good DMG + cheap + heal/buff) than anything else. Hence the current (can it be "old" now?) stereotype of being a "one-button", Jabs spamming, newb training wheels class. That hurts anyone who wants to play Templar. Stop thinking of an entire class as just training for players to switch to other classes. Let them be their own thing. Advocate for changes to balance their damage, sure, but they can be their own thing.

When I am talking balancing skills, no secret I am doing so from the perspective of an endgame player. I have never been much of a raid leader, but I have spent a LOT of time teaching people how to DPS. My house has been a defacto guild hall for several guilds over the years (not one currently), so there were days early on when literally there would be 10-15 people waiting for their turns on the dummy, and discussing damage while they waited. I have played every Class/Spec in this game. Templar and Sorc are the classes most people would typically break though various DPS thresholds for the first time. In my experience, people that mastered Templar First had a tougher time moving to other classes than ones that started on Sorc, because weaving jabs is slower than pretty much every other skill. Templar also typical had more passive skills than other classes, so there was less to juggle in a rotation.

The Flip side is that I do care about aesthetics, one look at my gaming rig and monitor and you would believe me. I want games to be beautiful, and for the most part, this one is. But I will always chose function over form when discussing skill balance. I could also certainly make the argument that there is much more detail in the new version of the spear, and in that way, its an improvement from a graphics standpoint.

(Sidebar, it would be really cool if the spear took on the motif of the weapon in your main hand, but that might be asking too much).

Templar is a training wheels class. I am not saying it should be, and I am not saying skilled players dont ever play it (2 of the best players I have ever met in this game, both mained templars, both also left the game a few years ago), I am just calling it like I see it. From the perspective of clearing basic content, no skill had more baked into than Puncturing Sweep, not by a long shot. Templar has been the easiest class to play in ESO for most of the games history (sorc nipping at its heels, and in some patches, probably easier). If you were a Sweep spammer and not much more, I 100% get hating this change.

virtus753 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It is certainly a training wheels class. You can literally clear just about every piece of overland and both vet arenas by just spamming jabs, lol. Only other class skill you might be able to say that about is swallow soul, but if a one button class is the goal, templar was in first place by a mile.

Yes, Jabs is an AOE, and that's WHY it's susceptible to overuse. Spammable + AOE = clears trash, agreed. But there are loads of abilities new players spam their way through the game with. Whirling Blade? Flurry? Acid Spray? Jabs has just become one of the most iconic and that is almost entirely because the damage and utility was so high. That, and since it is a class ability, of course Templars are going to use it. Other classes resort to weapon spammables, but they drop off at higher levels. Templar is a class ability and it doesn't drop off. They'v been propping it up for years as the linchpin of the whole class (other than heals).

One morph gives Major Brutality/Savagery (changed recently/important) and the other is a personal heal that lets you solo 90% of the game! Both morphs are basically the full package when you combine high damage in! AOE, good damage, stuns, cheap, heals/buffs. They built the thing to be a one-stop-shop to be spammed! You run Deadly Strike TO BUFF JABS! The whole class feels built around it!

Has Jabs been too strong (damage-wise) for a long time? Sure, it needed to be reigned in. They have reduced the damage and that's fine. The AOE portion of the skill almost felt like it wasn't being accounted for so Jabs was good Single Target and Multi Target! I think almost no one is arguing that the nerf to damage wasn't warranted. They wanted to make Jabs more of a lower for single target but high for large groups skill like it should be. Fine. But there are plenty of non-templar ways to spam your way through the game.

Yeah, you definitely have more options these days for a one button spammables, especially with things like pale order and CP that heals on damage. That is really why Jabs (or I guess, really sweeps, magic morph) was so OP as a one button build. High ST, good cleave, but it was the self heal that really made it work. A one button build has to provide heals.

So let me ask you this. Lets say they took the old animation, removed the 4th hit, lowered the cast time to .8 seconds, but other wise, it looked pretty much the same with a bit less damage. Would there be this much rage on the forums?

I could honestly care less what the spear looks like. I just want to be able to properly weave it within the GCD, so from that perspective, i like what they did. And if it is the training wheels class, should we at least have people learning an appropiate pace for literally every other rotation in the game? I have always thought that was a problem with templar. If you play any other class at the pace of the old jabs, you are going to pull terrible DPS.

I am just trying to understand the real source of the anger. LOL. (and maybe try to provide some logic for doing what they did).

The pace of jabs was fine. I could weave it at 0.08s, not too much worse than other skills, and I’m hardly the best out there.

Your question is not clear to me. Are you asking if *all* the changes had still been implemented except the animation, would we still have seen this outrage? Some, most definitely; as much, certainly not. Exactly how much in between is impossible to define. For some people the animation will be the bigger issue; for others, it’s the fact that they completely neutered a skill and its synergy rather than balancing them. To me, the animation is terrible, but it is a bigger issue that Jabs no longer feels fit for purpose as a class-defining spammable, unless ZOS wants to define the class as the one that takes out the trash.

You may have alluded to this in your question, although it isn’t quite clear to me, but there are two critical changes that must be mentioned explicitly in addition to the loss of the one hit and the channel time changing to 0.8s. First, the damage of each of the remaining three hits was further nerfed by 21%, along with a comment that shows that the combat team really doesn’t understand that the 1.0s channel time wasn’t worth a 21% nerf. We can’t cast Jabs any more frequently than once per second either way, so lowering the channel time by 20% doesn’t merit a dps loss of 21% on top of the 25% missing hit in a misguided attempt to “make up” for that. Second, Burning Light, which Jabs reliably procced, has been nerfed by ~67%, further removing the power of the skill and its ability to do anything close to reasonable damage.

Instead of taking a reasonable amount of power out of Jabs and Burning Light, they nerfed Jabs by 40% and Burning Light by 67%. I don’t understand how numbers that high were ever considered to be implemented at once. You don’t balance something by nearly halving the damage. Worse, they chose to partially compensate for that egregious nerf by buffing the class execute by nearly 25% (and more for the execute element), which means the class is now defined and powered by a skill with only magicka morphs that is to designed to come into play only at lower health values. (No, I don’t want one of those morphs to be stam. I’m pointing out that class identity is even more precarious in a number of ways now.) That execute now hits ridiculously hard when circumstances line up right. I feel like I’m cheating when it takes 13k in a single tick (not cast - tick) against my partner in a duel, but I need all sorts of luck getting there because my actual spammable has been gutted in favor of overloading a skill that’s even worse at full health than Jabs. What I’d like to see is balance, and a kind of balance that does not involve getting up from one side of the seesaw and sitting on the other expecting things to level out.

You are clearly looking at this from a skill function standpoint, as am I. I was simply trying to get to that heart of the rage on the forums. Is it the form (spear looks like a funny shovel), or is it the function (lower channel time and one less hit). The damage can always be adjusted down the road, and probably will be.

I too could weave jabs nearly as fast as anything else, but most people could not, and by definition, it was a slower weave. To weave it at that pace, you need to be darn near perfect with it. Ultimately, I think making it a .8 second channel was a good thing. I have also said many times that the damage nerfs to this skill dont make up for fixing the duration, especially from the standpoint of the floor they are trying to raise.

Lylith

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

Those who have been with the game for a long time will know every class (except necro) has been at the bottom of the pile and unplayed during a patch or even entire expansion.

You either adapt or find another class. I for example really enjoyed DK asylum staff build years ago (I hated whip). But that got nerfed and I shelved that character since.

Now it's wardens time to hibernate but I've always managed to find a build I enjoy with this class, some may not and probably quit for now (ice wardens).

Adapt or quit, that is the way of ESO.

seems most of my friends took the second option.

can't say i blame them, i'm likely to follow.

Billium813

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

When I am talking balancing skills, no secret I am doing so from the perspective of an endgame player. I have never been much of a raid leader, but I have spent a LOT of time teaching people how to DPS. My house has been a defacto guild hall for several guilds over the years (not one currently), so there were days early on when literally there would be 10-15 people waiting for their turns on the dummy, and discussing damage while they waited.

Well, idk you and I don't do in-depth research on every person I respond to, so thank you for the background. I see you have more stars next to your name than mine, so you have been on the forums for awhile and I only started posting recently (though I have been playing off and on since 2015). Based on your opinion on Jabs GCD I figured you were coming at this from the perspective of a 20 toon account, with a background in raiding or training and you want all classes to be in sync. That's fine and everyone plays different, but it can be difficult to step outside your perspective (myself included) and I was trying to nail down your particular vantage point.

I am coming at this from a 2 toon account, but really I main Templar (Tank, Healer, DPS). I don't think that should immediately discredit my position like I seem to get from many players who think I am just butt-hurt because I main one class. In some respects, I think a lot of the disconnect between players on MANY changes can be boiled down to "20 toon accounts" vs "2 toon accounts". Everyone plays ESO how they want and not all players want to switch classes ever other day or take part in raids/trials where the leader tells you what class to switch to based on group composition. Idk the percentage split, but I can't be alone in my love of just playing 1 or 2 classes. I don't need everything, like GCD, to be so synchronized across classes. I don't need or want to rotate between 6 different classes. I would rather become an expert in 1 or 2 classes than be mediocre in 6.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The Flip side is that I do care about aesthetics, one look at my gaming rig and monitor and you would believe me. I want games to be beautiful, and for the most part, this one is. But I will always chose function over form when discussing skill balance. I could also certainly make the argument that there is much more detail in the new version of the spear, and in that way, its an improvement from a graphics standpoint.

I do just want to outline that my issues with the changes to Jabs are strictly: the animation, the channel duration, the number of hits. I actually don't have much issue with the spear model. I understand that many players consider that as part of the "animation", but I consider them separate. I think the new spear model is much more detailed and fine. I would say that I think the model is a bit too beefy (maybe -30%) in size... but no real issues. IMO, the old jabs did feel more aesthetically pleasing. It felt like you were jabbing with a shard of light than actually constructing a detailed spear (I mean, why take the time to make the spear so detailed?), but I don't really care that the model changed. I dislike the other aspects for the reasons I have already outlined.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you were a Sweep spammer and not much more, I 100% get hating this change.

I have been playing Stamplar mainly for the last 2-ish years and don't use Sweeps. For solo content, I just put on Pale Order and it's fine. For organized content... that's what a healer is for, Biting Jabs is just better. For PvP, I didn't find the extra heal from Sweeps to be worth it. The class could already be really Tanky and had tons of access to other heals.

Billium813

Just for reference, in case anyone reading hasn't played Templar or is unfamiliar with the new Jabs animation/model



Aesthetically, that pivot at the hip is so bizarre to me. Why not have the over the top thrust like the old animation? It looks like the spear waggles around like a pool noodle; and consequently does look like you're digging a hole. There's so much LESS energy in this new Jabs too. The old Jabs was very aggressive and leaned into it. This new Jabs seems more ... flaccid (pardon the pun)

Also, for the model, the spear is like twice the thickness I think it could/should be and looks really chunky IMO. I don't mind the spear having a spear head on it now, however I liked the more simple / thematic "light-spear" before; it felt like a shard of light! But, if they want to reuse models to save on game size, it's fine.

I don't have a video that shows the old jabs (really regret not capping that before the PTS change), but Alcast has a good/old video that I think shows off the animation/model, and energy of the old Jabs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MD9HPfjLY

Agenericname

Billium813 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

When I am talking balancing skills, no secret I am doing so from the perspective of an endgame player. I have never been much of a raid leader, but I have spent a LOT of time teaching people how to DPS. My house has been a defacto guild hall for several guilds over the years (not one currently), so there were days early on when literally there would be 10-15 people waiting for their turns on the dummy, and discussing damage while they waited.

Well, idk you and I don't do in-depth research on every person I respond to, so thank you for the background. I see you have more stars next to your name than mine, so you have been on the forums for awhile and I only started posting recently (though I have been playing off and on since 2015). Based on your opinion on Jabs GCD I figured you were coming at this from the perspective of a 20 toon account, with a background in raiding or training and you want all classes to be in sync. That's fine and everyone plays different, but it can be difficult to step outside your perspective (myself included) and I was trying to nail down your particular vantage point.

I am coming at this from a 2 toon account, but really I main Templar (Tank, Healer, DPS). I don't think that should immediately discredit my position like I seem to get from many players who think I am just butt-hurt because I main one class. In some respects, I think a lot of the disconnect between players on MANY changes can be boiled down to "20 toon accounts" vs "2 toon accounts". Everyone plays ESO how they want and not all players want to switch classes ever other day or take part in raids/trials where the leader tells you what class to switch to based on group composition. Idk the percentage split, but I can't be alone in my love of just playing 1 or 2 classes. I don't need everything, like GCD, to be so synchronized across classes. I don't need or want to rotate between 6 different classes. I would rather become an expert in 1 or 2 classes than be mediocre in 6.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The Flip side is that I do care about aesthetics, one look at my gaming rig and monitor and you would believe me. I want games to be beautiful, and for the most part, this one is. But I will always chose function over form when discussing skill balance. I could also certainly make the argument that there is much more detail in the new version of the spear, and in that way, its an improvement from a graphics standpoint.

I do just want to outline that my issues with the changes to Jabs are strictly: the animation, the channel duration, the number of hits. I actually don't have much issue with the spear model. I understand that many players consider that as part of the "animation", but I consider them separate. I think the new spear model is much more detailed and fine. I would say that I think the model is a bit too beefy (maybe -30%) in size... but no real issues. IMO, the old jabs did feel more aesthetically pleasing. It felt like you were jabbing with a shard of light than actually constructing a detailed spear (I mean, why take the time to make the spear so detailed?), but I don't really care that the model changed. I dislike the other aspects for the reasons I have already outlined.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you were a Sweep spammer and not much more, I 100% get hating this change.

I have been playing Stamplar mainly for the last 2-ish years and don't use Sweeps. For solo content, I just put on Pale Order and it's fine. For organized content... that's what a healer is for, Biting Jabs is just better. For PvP, I didn't find the extra heal from Sweeps to be worth it. The class could already be really Tanky and had tons of access to other heals.

To be fair, the channel time was changed 3-4 years ago. All they did on that side of it was sync the animation and the channel time.

If I remember correctly, part of those patch notes stated that the damage per hit would decrease along with the channel time, but would allow more light attacks to be weaved and ultimately lead to slightly higher DPS, but the animation remained the same.

merpins

Billium813 wrote: »

Just for reference, in case anyone reading hasn't played Templar or is unfamiliar with the new Jabs animation/model



Aesthetically, that pivot at the hip is so bizarre to me. Why not have the over the top thrust like the old animation? It looks like the spear waggles around like a pool noodle; and consequently does look like you're digging a hole. There's so much LESS energy in this new Jabs too. The old Jabs was very aggressive and leaned into it. This new Jabs seems more ... flaccid (pardon the pun)

Also, for the model, the spear is like twice the thickness I think it could/should be and looks really chunky IMO. I don't mind the spear having a spear head on it now, however I liked the more simple / thematic "light-spear" before; it felt like a shard of light! But, if they want to reuse models to save on game size, it's fine.

I don't have a video that shows the old jabs (really regret not capping that before the PTS change), but Alcast has a good/old video that I think shows off the animation/model, and energy of the old Jabs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MD9HPfjLY

Yeah if you compare the two animations side by side like that... I mean just look at them. I made a thread during the PTS as an animator, from my professional perspective, why the new jabs is bad. Animation wise. I broke down the principles of animation, and how the new jabs IGNORES the principles of animation. The head doesn't move, the back doesn't arch much if at all, the arms...

Let me tell you how long it would take to animate this; maybe two hours.
There's a system at work here called Forward Kinematics. In 3D, when you want to animate a character, you have the choice of Inverse Kinematics (IK), or Forward Kinematics (***). Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I'll tell you for the most part, feet almost always universally work with *** and not IK.

IK is what you'd imagine animating a 3D model to be: you select the joint, like the shoulder, and rotate it which moves the arm. Then the elbow to move the forearm, and the wrist to move the hand. When you move the body, or you move the hips, the arms move and follow the shoulders as you'd expect.
*** is different. You move the entire arm by selecting the hand instead. If you move the body, the hand stays in place. This is why *** is good for animating walking; when you place a foot down, it stays in place when you move the hips of the character. That way there is no sliding at all.

Why is this important when I'm talking about the new animation? Well you can see this principle at work here. The feet are planted during the animation. There is a small move on the right foot, and then the foot turns at one point slightly. This is 2 frames of animation, the heel stays in place because that's where the *** dictates it to be. The left foot is the same. It stays in place until it is moved back for the pull back animation before the end strike. Also 2 frames of animation (albeit with some spline tweaking, probably less than 5 minutes of work). Then we get to the bulk of the animation, which I'll tell you right now is probably less work than the left foot animation. The head doesn't move. the body moves back and forth being controlled by the hips (not spline tweaking). There is also another joint where you can bend the body at the mid-back, which is bent slightly on the pull back, turning towards camera a bit. Literally, just a turn. This only requires 2 or 3 frames of animation; the start pose, and the end pose. Everything in-between is done automatically by the system. The arms are controlled by *** like the legs, so all the animator needs to do is key where the spear is. So maybe 8 frames of animation. No spline tweaking here either.

All in all, ignoring the principles of animation, an intern could make this animation in a couple hours with light guidance. The original animation isn't done so poorly. This is why I'm upset with the animation; it doesn't look good, and I can explain to you EXACTLY why it doesn't look good in a paragraph or two. They used less than 20 frames of animation, which isn't bad for a 1 second animation. But for one, the game is animated at 60 FPS with redundancies for 30 fps since base is 30, but it goes up to 60 (so animations need to be done at 60, with the ability to still look good at 30). But really the issue here is the fact that very little time and effort was put into the animation. Even the model they used for the spear, the Nighthollow staff, was a reused asset. With a gold texture, opacity turned way down, and a couple of single light nodes put on the hands and that's IT. I wouldn't be surprised if someone knocked this animation out in an hour. I could, hell it'd probably only take me a half an hour for this since there are no new assets.

Billium813

merpins wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just for reference, in case anyone reading hasn't played Templar or is unfamiliar with the new Jabs animation/model

Yeah if you compare the two animations side by side like that... I mean just look at them. I made a thread during the PTS as an animator, from my professional perspective, why the new jabs is bad. Animation wise. I broke down the principles of animation, and how the new jabs IGNORES the principles of animation. The head doesn't move, the back doesn't arch much if at all, the arms...

Just based on the new animation alone, from a laymen perspective, I don't see much wrong with the movement of the feet or body. But I will differ to animators on nuanced, subtle issues. The one big thing that sticks out to me is the somewhat bizarre, overly exaggerated twist at the hip at the start/end. It's the same rotation someone does digging a hole, not jabbing a spear. I don't feel there should be any rotation.

IMO, the animation sequence should be:
1) Animate the spear into the hands
2) Bend the knees down and make two quick, low jabs
3) On the pull back from the 2nd jab, raise the spear tip up. Extend the back arm and plant leg to form a jab over the top. Have the body lean forward to emphasize the jab.
4) Lower the spear/hands back to ready state
5) Remove the spear

[snip] I don't want to [snip] on someone's hard work... but it doesn't look very well thought out. Compared to the original animation that seemed carefully constructed and choreographed. But that's the whole theme of U35: "tearing down systems without understand why it was implemented the way it was in the first place"

[Edited for Censor Bypass & Bashing]

LesserCircle

Zos give back jabs please please?

merpins

Billium813 wrote: »

[snip] I don't want to [snip] on someone's hard work... but it doesn't look very well thought out. Compared to the original animation that seemed carefully constructed and choreographed. But that's the whole theme of U35: "tearing down systems without understand why it was implemented the way it was in the first place"

It looks wrong because it doesn't follow the principles of animation. It just keys the poses that are essential to the movement without thinking about if it looks particularly good. To me, it looks like they just used key frames and didn't go in and make it look good, so the movement is stiff, straight forward, and with no variation in timing. It also causes the problem you mention with those twists; if you pause the animation right at the height of the twist, it looks fine. In fact, if you pause most of it at any point, it looks fine. It's just when you see it in motion that it looks bad. That tells me that they did the first step of animating a new scene, keys, but didn't go back for tweens, messing with the splines, or any other work like easing in or out. that's where the principles of animation become a thing, so without them, it doesn't look good.

[snip] Doing just keys doesn't take very long in a 1 second animation; that's maybe 10 frames at most for a normal animation, and 20 for a 60 fps animation. So it probably took the animator a hour at most to do it, but probably substantially less than that.

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

IZZEFlameLash

Templar feels super bad to play as DPS. That is enough said.

rexagamemnon

Ive been considering quitting the game because of this now. The nerfed sweeps damage, and this dumb animation. I havent had much desire to play the game these past couple days

xthrshx

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Ive been considering quitting the game because of this now. The nerfed sweeps damage, and this dumb animation. I havent had much desire to play the game these past couple days

This is why I quit. They destroyed my main character. They slashed the damage of our most iconic skill and then made it look horrendous on top of it. (With a vampire motif, no less.) Why should I want to keep playing after that? Even if they rebalance the damage, that revolting animation still makes the class unplayable. And if my only other choices are flurry (which is somehow even worse) or spamming an AOE DOT, I’d rather just play a different game.

Prof_Bawbag

I won't lie, i love the Templar simply because of the simplicity it affords you to traverse the mob heavy and dense world. Step 2ft and you aggro yet another mob. It gets old fast. But it's kinda offset by the jab, jab, jab and yet more jabs one button press.

I don't play like this when 2 bars a required (trials etc), but it lets me see past the part of the game that beings to grate on me after a while. Every other class i've played, i just end up bored with wading through countless enemies as soon as i step off the well trodden paths.

I get others are obviously not affected the same otherwise everyone would be playing Templars, but the update hits next week and if it takes me 10 mins to do something that used to take me 5mins, I'll simply go play another game and come back at a later date to ESO should they revert it back.

This is also why I'm against overland being given a difficulty increase. It's not the difficulty increase per se, it's the mob density. You literally can't step a few feet without something or another attacking you. With each passing chapter/dlc, those mobs seem to get more annoying toolsets. They'd be cool if they were spread out, but getting rooted etc every few seconds ain't fun, and it will be even less fun once this update hits. In a weird way, what they seemed to have done is to make overland more laborious.

Wolf_Eye

Billium813 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Just for reference, in case anyone reading hasn't played Templar or is unfamiliar with the new Jabs animation/model

Yeah if you compare the two animations side by side like that... I mean just look at them. I made a thread during the PTS as an animator, from my professional perspective, why the new jabs is bad. Animation wise. I broke down the principles of animation, and how the new jabs IGNORES the principles of animation. The head doesn't move, the back doesn't arch much if at all, the arms...

Just based on the new animation alone, from a laymen perspective, I don't see much wrong with the movement of the feet or body. But I will differ to animators on nuanced, subtle issues. The one big thing that sticks out to me is the somewhat bizarre, overly exaggerated twist at the hip at the start/end. It's the same rotation someone does digging a hole, not jabbing a spear. I don't feel there should be any rotation.

IMO, the animation sequence should be:
1) Animate the spear into the hands
2) Bend the knees down and make two quick, low jabs
3) On the pull back from the 2nd jab, raise the spear tip up. Extend the back arm and plant leg to form a jab over the top. Have the body lean forward to emphasize the jab.
4) Lower the spear/hands back to ready state
5) Remove the spear

[snip] I don't want to [snip] on someone's hard work... but it doesn't look very well thought out. Compared to the original animation that seemed carefully constructed and choreographed. But that's the whole theme of U35: "tearing down systems without understand why it was implemented the way it was in the first place"

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

Hello. You took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you. You're amazing and wonderful. I've been too exhausted and sick to spend much time trying to put thoughts into words, and so I am so grateful you were able to do it so elegantly.

And I agree with your other point as well; I'm not so much bothered by the fact that we have a detailed spear (although the previous shard of light looked cooler BECAUSE it wasn't so well defined), it's really that last "pull back for final blow" animation that kills it.

[edited to remove quote]

virtus753

My issues with the animation have only grown since seeing the same Nighthollow motif apparently reused in a mechanic for one of the new dungeons, where it is also egregiously out of place.

It makes the new animation for Jabs feel part of a bigger trend ("random flavor of the patch that severely violates lore") rather than something chosen with care.

Ariordin

Its highly likely that the new jabs animation was locked into U35 by the time it hit the beta.

My hope is that the dev's have taken note of the players disdain for the new animation and are planning to either make additional updates or revert it for U36. I am not a game developer type, so does anyone know how many development hours it takes to create a new animation... the motion, graphics, sound? The new animation feels so 'rushed'. -reusing an old asset, didn't update the sound. If it is significantly costly to do this, my big fear is they won't be able to fit fixing jabs it into the budget/schedule.

How much hope should we have?

xthrshx

Ariordin wrote: »

Its highly likely that the new jabs animation was locked into U35 by the time it hit the beta.

My hope is that the dev's have taken note of the players disdain for the new animation and are planning to either make additional updates or revert it for U36. I am not a game developer type, so does anyone know how many development hours it takes to create a new animation... the motion, graphics, sound? The new animation feels so 'rushed'. -reusing an old asset, didn't update the sound. If it is significantly costly to do this, my big fear is they won't be able to fit fixing jabs it into the budget/schedule.

How much hope should we have?

It would take a competent animator a few hours, less than a full work day, to make this animation. Right now, it would cost barely anything in term of hours and budget to make jabs look awesome again. I don’t think we’ll get a fix, but it won’t be because of budget or schedule.

(Honestly, it would take like 20 minutes to just revert jabs to the old animation, truncate to .8 seconds, and sync the sound.)

UnabashedlyHonest

Ariordin wrote: »

Its highly likely that the new jabs animation was locked into U35 by the time it hit the beta.

My hope is that the dev's have taken note of the players disdain for the new animation and are planning to either make additional updates or revert it for U36. I am not a game developer type, so does anyone know how many development hours it takes to create a new animation... the motion, graphics, sound? The new animation feels so 'rushed'. -reusing an old asset, didn't update the sound. If it is significantly costly to do this, my big fear is they won't be able to fit fixing jabs it into the budget/schedule.

How much hope should we have?

Very little hope is warranted if past is prologue. Fixing this mistake would be admitting the animation change was a mistake. ZOS very, very rarely admits it when they make a mistake.

rexagamemnon

Changing the channel time is one thing, but the 20% damage reduction to sweeps was completely unnecessary. Ive spent the 7 years i have played this game mostly praising the devs or giving them the benefit of doubt on these patch notes. The only thing i can remember disagreeing with was the racial passive balancing they did a while back. But this is unjustifiable. A 20% damage nerf to sweeps!? Are you kidding me? I hope the devs at the very least next patch revert the damage nerf on sweeps they implemented.

renne

What do you mean you don't like to look like you're mucking out stables with your shovel when you attack people?? IT's really cool! Especially the [snip] reskin using an existing (vampire) motif of a staff! Not even a spear! It's cool guys!

Narrator: It was not cool.

[edited for bashing]

SaffronCitrusflower

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Changing the channel time is one thing, but the 20% damage reduction to sweeps was completely unnecessary. Ive spent the 7 years i have played this game mostly praising the devs or giving them the benefit of doubt on these patch notes. The only thing i can remember disagreeing with was the racial passive balancing they did a while back. But this is unjustifiable. A 20% damage nerf to sweeps!? Are you kidding me? I hope the devs at the very least next patch revert the damage nerf on sweeps they implemented.

They nerfed sweeps, jabs AND power of the light, all three of the main damage dealing skills templars use. They really, really nailed templars with U35. Templars were nerfed into oblivion with U35. And on top of the nerfs, they made the jabs animation a dorky flailing motion with a glowing Nighthollow staff. What were they thinking?

Sonnir

Really wish jabs animation would be reverted. I miss my templar. Remaking a "new" main is soooo tedious. >.< Especially when I can not even be bothered to login in daily as I dread the trudge of leveling skill lines on an inexperienced toon while missing my awesome templar.
It is the worst 😢