SizanLopkniht wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SizanLopkniht wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There is no quitting ESO epidemic.

There absolutely IS an epidemic of people leaving ESO. Ask any trading guild GM. Ask any trial raid leader. Ask any PvP regular and they will tell you there absolutely IS a mass exodus of players leaving ESO.

I've been a member is a successful trading guild for quite awhile now and we had one member say they were unhappy with the changes. Except for an occasional member leaving, which happens in all guilds, the only ones we lost since the update were those who were purged for not meeting the weekly sales requirements, and they were quickly replaced.

I've been all over Tamriel and I see just as many other players as I always have going about business as usual.

What trading guild are you referring to and where is the trader located?

You've repeatedly posted that you don't do solo or group trials, don't do battlegrounds, that you don't PvP and that you don't participate in vet HM dungeons or the PTS. That means there is a whole heck of a lot of the game you have not taken part in.

The major trade guilds that pay tens of millions of gold/week to keep their prime traders are, in fact, losing so many members lately that they are seriously struggling to pay the rent now days. Sure, if your trader is in some obscure location and populated with a small number of casual players they're doing fine. But the major trade guilds certainly ARE NOT doing fine now days. They are struggling.

Not taking part in something doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. I was an avid raider in other MMOS and know what it takes to succeed at end game. I just have no desire to do it any more. I've also done a lot of PvP in the past.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that there has not been an epidemic of players leaving ESO.

Every time there is a major change there is a rash of threads predicting the end of ESO, and a lot of examples given of whole guilds leaving and an empty game world in an effort to convince ZoS to revert the changes. But this is not what is actually happening. ZoS knows how many are playing and how many are coming and going.

Edit: Our trader is in Elden Root which is a major and highly desirable location, and we are doing great.

I think "epidemic" is a bit strong, but end game is definitely bleeding members. Since the patch hit, which has only been a few days now, I've seen several guilds disband. Others groups are taking breaks because members have quit or reduced activity and Discord servers have notable less activity than before the patch. That said, there are no real numbers on new players joining or veteran players coming back after a break to see what all the fuss is about.

A few of the groups have decided to take breaks because of bugs with Update 35 -- things like Deluge wiping their group on Taleria in Dreadsail Reef, the "fix" for the Reef Guardian interrupt (this should be a shared cooldown and you shouldn't get more than one Acid Reflux if this is the direction they want to go) -- rather than anything related to DPS or HPS, but a few have left specifically because of the latter.

https://youtu.be/5wQpQX3Zxbo

https://youtu.be/U6xqEuQFMvM

Y'all do realize that between the two statements "Among the players I know, there's a quitting epidemic" and "Among the players I know, there's not a quitting epidemic" can both be true statements, right? You're starting to circle quite a bit.

Speaking for myself, I'm cutting back a fair bit on playtime. To some extent, that was inevitable when I decided that High Isle's one new feature wasn't worth $40.

But I also have zero interest in adapting my builds to U35 when I'm pretty sure that it's going to be followed by some major standardization in U36 and following because the Dev team really didn't finish the job properly in time for Launch.

Like, I've got a Heavy Attack Sorc Tank who should benefit from this patch's changes to Empower, but the last thing I want to do is sink a lot of effort into kitting her out for U35 only for ZOS to yank the rug out in U36 when they standardize sets and skills to match the changes to the buff. That's a recipe for burnout and change fatigue. It's far easier to just cut back on playtime and wait for ZOS to move on from tweaking the stuff that directly impacts that character.

Does cutting back on playtime count as part of that epidemic of quitting or not?

I agree that this patch is one of the worst they have brought out and also one of the miscommunicated ones ever released. However, I think that a lot of people are overreacting to the changes because they have been used to hitting high numbers in raids/ on dummies. I’m more concerned about heals in raids, especially in vRG HMs and vDSR HMs since there are a lot of fights in there that are support dependent (ie a team pushing Planesbreaker has the ot holding 2 abominations on Bahsei HM, maelstrom phase on Taleria HM). It’s honestly been such a shame that so many teams have disbanded or are on the verge of disbanding as a result of this upcoming patch.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Y'all do realize that between the two statements "Among the players I know, there's a quitting epidemic" and "Among the players I know, there's not a quitting epidemic" can both be true statements, right? You're starting to circle quite a bit.

This is true to an extent, but still seeing a lot of players in every town and zone shows that these parts of the game have not been negatively affected.

Troodon80 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Does cutting back on playtime count as part of that epidemic of quitting or not?

I think within the context of the original poster, people who cut down their activity or "leave end game" probably qualify. But who knows, to be honest.

I absolutely agree with you that both statements can be true as people are only looking from within the context of their own circle. We have no real numbers for players outside of our own circles, nor any substantive numbers for players in general. Plus, it's right after the patch, so the numbers we do have right now are not really indicative of anything. We need to wait and see once the dust settles.

Both statements can be true --- but, and again, in my experience - I am a member of 3 guilds.
We have seen a drop of about 10% in the first one, which isn't bad.... but the people that left are all the most senior members.
That guild was more multi-faced, in that we had inside it, groups that did dungeons, some sales oriented people, and some RP and housing focused mini-groups under the umbrella --- most of those that left were the group style players.

Second is more trade and RP focused, albeit small.... only went down about 5%, but we had to promote new officers, as many of those left .... but it is fun

Third one, which was more dungeon and group play focused went from 331 members to 48, in the last 2 weeks

I am also getting spam messaged, in game, to join into guilds I had previously applied to, and had been told there was no room. Now, they ALL are contacting me and telling me that they suddenly have spaces ......

As I have noted elsewhere, I have had some trouble in random dungeon queues, because I run a Templar Tank --- and right now, the sentiment is "Templar Bad"... although those that know me, also know that I don't use the skills that got nerfed, and that I do my job as a tank.....

Now, I am dreading joining those, not because of the people that want to call for a vote to kick due to me being a Templar, but because of the inevitable spam of "please join my guild" messages I will get afterwards.

I am in 3 guilds, and I don't need more ..... but more importantly, is the fact that there are now spam invites --- people sitting at shrines, so that when you teleport in... you get 2, or 3 invites to guilds.
World chat, even in Glenumbra, which was usually unique, are now Guild Ads, every other line or entry.

And most of these guilds are noting that they are established ... and many are names I recognize, even if I have only been here since January, as having been fairly large and around for a while.

Guilds are getting less choosy, and it's rapidly becoming a situation of where any warm body will do to keep our guild from losing access to X, Y, or Z.

Now, I am assuming that a lot of people are just sitting out -- they KNOW that a lot of this will be reverted, again, in September.... the post we recently got about an armor set that is going to be changed on September 5th is pretty much a good indication of exactly that. My ESO+ doesn't end until October 1st, so I will at least play until I get my money value back.... but if it isn't fun, then I'll be making decisions.

However, in all 3 guilds, the people we are losing are the most experienced members. I don't think the game is dying... not in the way that some suggest..... but more that the dedication is dying. These are the people that care that the spear they used for the new Templar jabs is a vampire spear..... they know the lore, they care about the lore, and those are the ones leaving .....

I see a future similar to Age of Conan -- where you have a small core player base.... and an ever rotating group of players that drop in to try it out, and invariably ask who Conan is? It isn't growing larger, nor shrinking, but has been brought down to a single server... and it limps on with very little being added. Mind you, I am a fan, and read most of the Conan novels between the 70's through the 90's ...... so, for me it's seeing parts of books I read made visual.... same reason I still log into Lord of the Rings Online on a regular basis.

The devs could turn this around -- there is so very much of Tamriel lore to explore .... but they are going to need a vision, and it won't matter if it's a good vision, if no one is there to see what they do. I am hoping that this was to create a baseline for later improvements, as some have suggested....but then again, others note that they haven't always delivered on promised improvements in the past.

I do see the spirit of this game, dying, though ... and if that happens, it will be a core of people too contrary to go to another game, too focused on what they have here, and not wanting to give up their digital possessions, or just too scared to leave.... with a rotating group of people dropping in for a month to try it out, and then leaving.........

Auldwulfe

(edited to correct some spelling and grammar errors)

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

Raiders are the tiniest demographic in ESO this is quantifiably true

Firstly I would like to see these quantifiable numbers broken down somewhere else besides the forums, but leaving that aside for the moment…..

I see many, many threads where folks attempt to bolster their position with the phrase “the majority of players”, over and over again as if this strengthens their statement. Those same folks, often in the same post, will go to lengths to illustrate that the opposing position is in the vast minority.

Now I want you to seriously consider - in the wider world, is it considered virtuous to approach minority groups and positions in such a way?

Or is it, in fact, considered odious, overbearing and stifling of diversity?

My impression of the approach in the wider world is the latter, and I see no reason it should not be any different here, or anywhere on this world. It isn’t something that only applies in the “real world”, but it is a universal principle that is applicable in every conceivable situation with which human consciousness is made manifest.

I'm sympathetic...

Thank you, no need to qualify it. That alone would be appreciated. Many of us have been here since the beginning, have helped endless new people, spent thousands of dollars - only be confronted on these forums with folks who seem to to out of their way belittle our experiences. Some seem to even make a sport of it.

So simple sympathy and understanding is definitely the way.

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

I really don't belong to any one group I have friends all over the game I just want us all to get along....

Same here mate, same here. An end or severe curbing of the all over the place combat updates would really, really help turn the burner down. Not about being afraid or unwilling to grapple with change, just a bone tiredness with lurching volatility.

Jaraal wrote: »

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

So lets say there is a epidemic of end game players leaving....I don't believe it, but lets say there are.


Raiders are the tiniest demographic in ESO this is quantifiably true and can be backed up by listening to streamers who raid. so even if 90% of Raiders leave...that isn't a heck of a lot of people. Of course Ideally Zenimax dosen't want to lose anyone, but even it my proposed number...it isn't really going to effect the bottom line.

Then why would ZOS make concession ONLY for those players? They reduced trial and dungeon boss health only for veteran (endgame) content, while leaving normal content players who lost 20-40% DPS and healing to have to face full health normal bosses.

They are certainly sending mixed messages by announcing they wanted to nerf endgamers and their "obscene damage numbers," and then turning around and cutting only those very same players a break.

Perhaps because they know those are both the most vocal players and the ones most likely to quit over it. Of course, they might also have focussed their concession on those players because they recognised on reflection that their case was the strongest. Normal content players are closer to the content that people were complaining was too easy.

I quit because I play mostly solo, am into housing, and got utterly fed up with not having a system to sell stuff that doesn't require me to join a guild, meaning that buying anything from guild traders involved an absurd amount of grind to get the gold together.

Coupled with ever more insane furnishing material requirements with every new release of furniture.

I'm not going to play a game four hours per night just to be able to do what I want to do (nor will I be manipulated into spending hundreds and hundreds in the crown store). I have a life and there is not a shred of enjoyment in grinding for materials and stealing on the same circuit over and over again.

Clearly, my niche is not the preferred niche of most of the users of this forum, but the balance is off for many different types of player, it seems.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I really enjoyed Antiquities loved how it integrated into the whole game (chasing Leads through other zones, providing mythic items, motifs and new items)! I was meh on Companions, but felt that it added a different dimension to the existing game (gear drops, leveling, questing). Tales of Tribute is a minigame that I don't particularly care for and offers no integration into the game. I'm actually glad for that too cause I would hate to be forced to play that game for items.

If I remember correctly from the initial announcement about the card game, ZOS had originally intended for it to be integrated far more into the game as far as offering desirable rewards. But there was a huge outcry from a lot of players who had hoped for a new class or race or skill line, and who were angry that such was not the case. As I understand it, those extremely vocal players basically insisted that ZOS must promise them that no META gear items or things of that nature must ever be "gated" behind the card game, since they absolutely refused to ever play it. In fact, some of those players are so livid over the card game that they will not even interact with the quest giver and accept her quest, merely to shut her up, the way players must do with so many other quest givers in the game.

There is a huge difference between NATURALLY integrating into the existing game and being FORCED to integrate.

Take a look at Antiquities: it gives you Leads while playing the game (which reuses dungeons and arenas and WBs and content already in the game), it reuses the current game map and treasure hunting, it reuses the furnishing/housing mechanics by giving thematic furniture. The only new thing, that is independent of the existing game, is a 20 second antiquities minigame. But, imo, that's fine because not only is it quick and easy, it's only a means to an end; getting the antiquity.

Now take a look at Tales of Tribute: it's a whole minigame in and of itself. It offers no integration into the game, other than ... they added card tables all around Tamriel for you to play at? The game reuses NOTHING from the current game. There is no hunting, or exploring, or delving, or combat, or anything. It is it's own separate game being added to ESO. Tales of Tribute IS THE MEANS AND THE END.

The question is: Is there a world in which they could have made Tales of Tribute more integrated into the game and accepted? No. The problem always come back to the reason someone would want to play a mechanic. You do Antiquities FOR the items you get at the end, you play Tales of Tribute FOR the card game. Antiquities is the means to an end. Some people don't like Antiquities, but like taking your vitamins, it's actually good for you even if the player doesn't see it. It exposes you to more of the actual game; it forces you to play ESO. Tales of Tribute is the lock and the key. It stops ESO and says "here, play something else for awhile".

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Although I personally had initially not expected to play the card game, I gave it a try and discovered it to be a lot of fun, even addictive. I've seen other players say the same; they didn't expect to like the card game, but gave it a try, and became avid card players. Even quite a few "vet end-game" players who gave it a try became avid card players, and could be seen playing the card game on their streams

That's great, I'm legitimately happy that you enjoy Tales of Tribute. I'm not surprised some people enjoy it, it's entirely possible to enjoy more than 1 game. And that's just it, Tales of Tribute is / should be it's own game. Remember Elder Scrolls Legends? Tales of Tribute would be fine as a separate game as an app on my phone that I could play while waiting for trials to form or dungeon queues. But it's not that. It requires dedicated play inside the ESO game.

I don't mind it existing for those that want to play it, but it's so outside the core structure of ESO that it steps beyond the game and requires a complete deviation from regular game play. It would be like ESO requiring you to exit the game, launch Magic the Gathering Online, play 3 games of Standard, then go back to ESO and redeem your game code. It just doesn't fit with the core of the game: exploring the map, delving dungeons, fighting bosses, and decorating a house; which I would argue is 95% of the game. It's a complete deviation in gameplay.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

You and other players might be happy that ZOS changed the rewards originally planned for the card game, but I'd guess that if an extremely vocal group of "casuals" were to make a similar stink about leads for META gear items being "gated" behind dungeons, trials, and arenas, and were to insist that ZOS must immediately remove all such META gear items from behind such content, the response from the "vet end-game" players would be that anyone who wants a particular reward must do the content which gives that reward, and that this is how it's always been in MMOs, like it or not, so deal with it. So it seems supremely ironic to me that some players could not stand for this same type of philosophy to be applied to the card game's rewards. How utterly disappointing.

I don't follow this argument. I am fine if they want to gate META Tales of Tribute cards behind Tales of Tribute vet level content. I'm also fine if they want to gate non-combat furnishings or motifs behind Tales of Tribute content. IMO, they are both casual loot / activities. Why should they gate META combat items behind a card game? They are so unrelated to each other that it makes no sense. And Tales of Tribute requires more than a simple, passing reference. It's a whole other game to learn and play entirely tangential to ESO.

Jaraal wrote: »

It seems logical that people doing easy content and complaining it is too easy should probably move up to doing the current harder content. My guess would be that those people who will now have 30% less damage and healing and can no longer kill river trolls will simply go back to killing wolves and complaining that they are too easy.

It's not the players doing easy content who are the ones complaining that it is too easy.