Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Devs want this class to be a ganker I guess. They nerfed the stealth morph because Dks had such a hard time fighting Nbs (/s) and now they nerf the healing morph as well. Having to stand still to get a proper heal, sounds like so much fun lol.

Dark Cloak wasn't even op in PvP, I only used it when I got bored of the invis cloak playstyle but can't even do that anymore...

Yeah all the dev hype about trying to control one shot stealth gank builds, and what do they do? Push NBs away from brawler play and back into the gank meta. Go figure!

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Not everything needs to be good in all situations. Perhap Dark Cloak will only be applicable to ganking NBs in PvP. Just cause other classes have good heals, doesn't mean NB has to as well. Each class has strengths and weaknesses. NBs weakness can be healing. There are non-class specific heals you know.

IMO, the only across the board class parity should be damage. DK gets armor/mitigation, NB gets stuns/evasion/invisibility, Templar gets healing (group AOE and burst). Strengths and weaknesses people, its good for class identity.

In PVP, strengths and weaknesses should be coming in the form of class utility. Otherwise, what, we only see 6 different play styles in cyrodiil? Tank DKs, healing templars, ganking Nbs, etc? If you want to play a particular class, you shouldn't be pigeon holed into playing a healer, a block tank, or a ganker.

95% of everyone in PvP are DPS. You can play whatever you want! Achievable damage through class skills should be mostly equivalent across all classes. The rest are class specific niches (DKs are tankier than most, Templars heal better than most, NBs stun and invis). Every class doesn't have to be the best at everything.

I'm talking about class skill identity. Generic versions exist in weapon and guild skills. They may be weaker than their comparable class skills, but that is good for class identity. Generic versions should be weaker (but allows access to other classes) and non-specialized classes class skills should have more hoops to jump through to get it to work (standing still, HoT vs burst, cast durations, steeper resource costs, trade-offs).

I'm just tired of hearing people compare non-damage class skills to the strengths of other classes like it means something. There are strengths and weaknesses in each class, NBs can have weak self healing. Get over it.

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Regardless, no skill should be set to a place where it's not worth running in any situation. Dark Cloak with this change is objectively worse than Shadowy Disguise in pretty much all situations. It's such a weak heal now--coupled with the recent nerf to duration--with vigor at your disposal, I can't imagine why you'd bother casting it next patch, let alone slotting it. I'm now more likely to run no cloak morph than Dark Cloak next patch. A morph that was basically the icon of magblade is just set to be useless.

There are still plenty of situations where the new Dark Cloak is worth running. The heal is actually buffed over Live if you can stand still for 3 bloody seconds.

Also, Shadowy Disguise doesn't even heal so how can you say "all situations"? You're lack of vision and casual dismissal based on a narrow perspective is sad.

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

The only time this is a skill worth running is a block tank, which frankly should never be a spec you see in cyrodiil.

Block Tank is actually a very ingenious strategy in Cyrodiil and incredibly useful for organized groups that make use of them. It makes inexperienced players and zerg balls waste time and resources. It forces zergs to scrunch together for DC combo nukes. The Block Tank is a trap for new players and dumb zergs. It's good.

Otherwise, you are still not seeing the bigger picture. So what if Dark Cloak becomes more niche in PvP? Maybe someone will have to disengage and hide behind a column/wall for 3 seconds. There are alternative skills for NB to heal and they wont be dead without this heal. Or they can work with the skill and find a better heal than they had before.

And with only 4300 SD and 30k Health, a vigor tick is 2.5x a dark cloak tick. And vigor also has a longer duration. And is

Billium813 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

The only time this is a skill worth running is a block tank, which frankly should never be a spec you see in cyrodiil.

Block Tank is actually a very ingenious strategy in Cyrodiil and incredibly useful for organized groups that make use of them. It makes inexperienced players and zerg balls waste time and resources. It forces zergs to scrunch together for DC combo nukes. The Block Tank is a trap for new players and dumb zergs. It's good.

Otherwise, you are still not seeing the bigger picture. So what if Dark Cloak becomes more niche in PvP? Maybe someone will have to disengage and hide behind a column/wall for 3 seconds. There are alternative skills for NB to heal and they wont be dead without this heal. Or they can work with the skill and find a better heal than they had before.

I am of the opinion, you shouldn't be able to build anything that a decent player spec'd for damage can't kill. It's inherently anti-fun. But regardless, the skill is now a dud. "Waiting behind a wall for 3 seconds" doesn't even make Dark Cloak a good choice. Vigor is STILL stronger, and a burst heal is nearly as strong, and instantaneous, and half the cost. Slotting for such an edge case, when it doesnt even outperform the other options makes the skill never worth running and almost never worth casting.

Ksariyu wrote: »

Lots of good points being made here. I just wanted to throw some thoughts in to consider in addition to just the tooltip math.

One of the better things I saw from the PTS was how Shadow seems to be getting a lot of attention in terms of class identity, as well as changes that create better synergy within the skill line itself. There's a heavy focus on Shadow being all about getting in and getting out, with high mobility and invis being their specialty. To this end, I think the Dark Cloak changes kind of fit in with that vision. You get in and do your damage, then you back out and chill for a second while Dark Cloak does its thing so you can rush back in.

There's also the fact that for Brawler builds, Siphoning would seem by far the better skill line to invest in. There's literally four skills that heal you in the Siphoning line, so I don't really see why Shadow needs to have a super-strong heal as well.

I stand by the principle that no skill/morph should function so poorly, it's never worth running. Re-work the skill entirely then. But as it is now, there no reason to cast Dark Cloak when you can cast vigor instead. Ever since the duration nerf to dark cloak, the skill is less of a shield style hot and more a quasi-burst heal. Three seconds is extremely short. So if you already have a vigor rolling, and you still need a heal, healthy offering is always a better choice. Even if you are standing still.

For the record, to put in perspective how low that heal is, even when not moving, if run two defensive sets, three seconds of dark cloak just barely beats out healing on a burst heal. That's with the no-moving condition. Over the entire duration. Between the higher cost, the duration, the stand-still condition, it is just not worth casting.

If this is the route they take with it, at least bring back the duration to what it used to be. 3 seconds for such with such a weak heal is a ridiculous continuation of nerfs to a skill less than 5% of nightblades actually use.

Yeh not just not usable in PvP it's just not usable altogether. Sure if you're gonna do vet fungal grotto you can use it but try using it on something like RPB HM and we'll see in a matter of how many seconds you'll be kicked from the group.

Well I mean ZoS IS making the game play itself so they probs had the 'vision' of making that skill good for the hybrid assassin/staff build which doesn't do any attacks basically except for the occasional light attach to be chunky enough being borderline afk to kill trashgroups in overland content without going less than 90% health?

Jaraal wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Yeh not just not usable in PvP it's just not usable altogether. Sure if you're gonna do vet fungal grotto you can use it but try using it on something like RPB HM and we'll see in a matter of how many seconds you'll be kicked from the group.

That's a good point.

It's a terrible point. Tanks stand still all the time. Then they move. Then they stand still. Then they move. Then they stand still. This heal doesn't need 100% uptime, its a 3 second heal that is stronger than live IF you can find 3 seconds to stand still! It's designed fine for what they want it to support, you all just can't wrap your minds around it cause you mindlessly spam skills without thinking about it. #skillskills

Billium813 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Yeh not just not usable in PvP it's just not usable altogether. Sure if you're gonna do vet fungal grotto you can use it but try using it on something like RPB HM and we'll see in a matter of how many seconds you'll be kicked from the group.

That's a good point.

It's a terrible point. Tanks stand still all the time. Then they move. Then they stand still. Then they move. Then they stand still. This heal doesn't need 100% uptime, its a 3 second heal that is stronger than live IF you can find 3 seconds to stand still! It's designed fine for what they want it to support, you all just can't wrap your minds around it cause you mindlessly spam skills without thinking about it. #skillskills

Tbf this is true. Before I focused on pvp, I was a sweaty tank for hm trial groups. In most trials and content tanks are stationary. There are a few outliers.

In vAS, one tank strat has you roll dodging the swipes, but this also means you don't get hit with direct damage anyway AND you have a pocket healer.

This particular change will be fine for PvE tanks. It just sucks for PVP brawler blades.

Billium813 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Even if standing still, vigor ticks are actually marginally higher. And it's a generic skill, cheaper cost, cost stam (which is a major benefit since most skills cost mag), with a 66% longer duration. Then compare to burst heal, dark cloak is marginally weaker, EVEN when standing still. Even if you can stand still 100% of the time, tell me why I'd choose to cast dark cloak before casting my other healing options?

On the basis of strength of the heal, I don't disagree with you, but for different reasons. Vigor has been a top performing heal for a long time and I would agree that it's too strong for a generic heal, available to all classes, from a PvP focused skill line. I think your anger is misdirected, Vigor should be nerfed.

On the basis of the "stand still" mechanic, the new Dark Cloak is still applicable and works fine for PvE tank mechanics.

tldr; PTS Dark Cloak is stronger than live if you can work with the skill. Go complain about Vigor somewhere else.

No, I don't think vigor should be nerfed. I'm for the RR nerfs since it's distributed healing, but vigor is a self applied and only applies to yourself. And it has been farily on par with other class-based heals minus the utility. I absolutely am against the dark cloak nerf and it makes no sense to nerf a skill that already faces almost no utilization on the most popular class in the game.

Billium813 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Yeh not just not usable in PvP it's just not usable altogether. Sure if you're gonna do vet fungal grotto you can use it but try using it on something like RPB HM and we'll see in a matter of how many seconds you'll be kicked from the group.

That's a good point.

It's a terrible point. Tanks stand still all the time. Then they move. Then they stand still. Then they move. Then they stand still. This heal doesn't need 100% uptime, its a 3 second heal that is stronger than live IF you can find 3 seconds to stand still! It's designed fine for what they want it to support, you all just can't wrap your minds around it cause you mindlessly spam skills without thinking about it. #skillskills

If you’re tanking in a group and your mobility is focused on standing still for a selfish heal rather than collecting adds, positioning bosses, and maximizing your group’s buffs, you might not be a good tank.

Jaraal wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Yeh not just not usable in PvP it's just not usable altogether. Sure if you're gonna do vet fungal grotto you can use it but try using it on something like RPB HM and we'll see in a matter of how many seconds you'll be kicked from the group.

That's a good point.

It's a terrible point. Tanks stand still all the time. Then they move. Then they stand still. Then they move. Then they stand still. This heal doesn't need 100% uptime, its a 3 second heal that is stronger than live IF you can find 3 seconds to stand still! It's designed fine for what they want it to support, you all just can't wrap your minds around it cause you mindlessly spam skills without thinking about it. #skillskills

If you’re tanking in a group and your mobility is focused on standing still for a selfish heal rather than collecting adds, positioning bosses, and maximizing your group’s buffs, you might not be a good tank.

None of those things usually require a tank to move, and even if they do, once everything is positioned they normally aren't moving unless they just have the jimmy legs and can't help doing the maelstrom shuffle. 😆

ninjagank wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Yeh not just not usable in PvP it's just not usable altogether. Sure if you're gonna do vet fungal grotto you can use it but try using it on something like RPB HM and we'll see in a matter of how many seconds you'll be kicked from the group.

That's a good point.

It's a terrible point. Tanks stand still all the time. Then they move. Then they stand still. Then they move. Then they stand still. This heal doesn't need 100% uptime, its a 3 second heal that is stronger than live IF you can find 3 seconds to stand still! It's designed fine for what they want it to support, you all just can't wrap your minds around it cause you mindlessly spam skills without thinking about it. #skillskills

If you’re tanking in a group and your mobility is focused on standing still for a selfish heal rather than collecting adds, positioning bosses, and maximizing your group’s buffs, you might not be a good tank.

None of those things usually require a tank to move, and even if they do, once everything is positioned they normally aren't moving unless they just have the jimmy legs and can't help doing the maelstrom shuffle. 😆

Well I feel for your healer if you're going to stand in red and risk getting one shotted just so you can get a couple hundred more HP from your selfish heal.