Dark Cloak in 8.1.4 is unusable in PVP

React

On 8.1.4, I'm getting below 1k average ticks while moving with 30k HP, which seems to be the PVP standard for most non-tank setups right now.

The nerf to this ability in PVP is far too heavy. In a PVP environment you simply cannot afford to stand still in any scenario where it matters, and the "150% healing while still" component is completely worthless for anyone that isn't playing some sort of pure troll tank setup. This skill was crucial to hybrid nightblade/brawler & magicka nightblade, and it is now not even worth the slot on your bar with no suitable replacement readily available.

I'd like to see the value of this heal bumped up slightly. It doesn't need to be some insane heal over time, it doesn't need to be the value that it was in previous live patches, it just needs to be a consistent and worthwhile heal so that "non-invisibility cloak" playstyles can continue to exist. Even a 15% increase to the tooltip value (mine was 1810 with 30k HP, for reference) would likely be enough to make the skill worthwhile.

Even on the PVE side of the game, I've seen numerous nightblade tanks voicing their opinions that the immobility requirement is counter-intuitive, due to many encounters requiring them to remain mobile. I understand that the developers are seemingly worried about the heal overperforming in PVP, but the current state of it is just terrible for the vast majority of players that used it previously.

edward_frigidhands

React wrote: »

On 8.1.4, I'm getting below 1k average ticks while moving with 30k HP, which seems to be the PVP standard for most non-tank setups right now.

The nerf to this ability in PVP is far too heavy. In a PVP environment you simply cannot afford to stand still in any scenario where it matters, and the "150% healing while still" component is completely worthless for anyone that isn't playing some sort of pure troll tank setup. This skill was crucial to hybrid nightblade/brawler & magicka nightblade, and it is now not even worth the slot on your bar with no suitable replacement readily available.

I'd like to see the value of this heal bumped up slightly. It doesn't need to be some insane heal over time, it doesn't need to be the value that it was in previous live patches, it just needs to be a consistent and worthwhile heal so that "non-invisibility cloak" playstyles can continue to exist. Even a 15% increase to the tooltip value (mine was 1810 with 30k HP, for reference) would likely be enough to make the skill worthwhile.

Even on the PVE side of the game, I've seen numerous nightblade tanks voicing their opinions that the immobility requirement is counter-intuitive, due to many encounters requiring them to remain mobile. I understand that the developers are seemingly worried about the heal overperforming in PVP, but the current state of it is just terrible for the vast majority of players that used it previously.

Hey React. I guess we are both here to say something about this one...

I would like to understand why this gets the nerf-bat while Dragon Knights can heal 45% of missing health while demolishing people with Corrosive Armor up.

IAmIcehouse

It's usage compared to shadowy disguise morph has to be at least 100 to one. but for some reason, this is the morph that they consistently nerf patch-over-patch. It's infuriating.

Just another patch where I get to go back into discord and mock "Thank God dark cloak is getting nerfed again, because dark cloak nightblades have been running RAMPANT in cyrodiil. All three of them. All three of those nightblades."

Wyrd88

React wrote: »

Even on the PVE side of the game, I've seen numerous nightblade tanks voicing their opinions that the immobility requirement is counter-intuitive, due to many encounters requiring them to remain mobile. I understand that the developers are seemingly worried about the heal overperforming in PVP, but the current state of it is just terrible for the vast majority of players that used it previously.

Yep, it's bad even from PVE perspective, cause in a lot of encounter standing still might be a death sentence. If you're experienced enough in tanking sure you can find a window to stand still to get this heal boost, but as you said, it's counter-intuitive, and again, considering the main goal of the patch was accessibility, this change will hurt inexperienced and mid-tier NB tanks the most.

Personally, I don't understand why they keep touching certain skills (this one including) when Consuming Darkness and Poop Fist still exists.

edward_frigidhands

I have never heard complaints regarding this ability so I am rather surprised to find it on the chopping block while Green Dragon Blood outperforms this by a mile.

If there are concerns then I wonder if the developers can just address this by making a portion of Dark Cloak scale with Max Health and another scale with total Physical/Spell Resistance.

MentalxHammer

That’s a very fair and accurate assessment of the current state of dark cloak in 8.1.4. The nerf to dark cloak doesn’t make sense considering ZOS has expressed that class skills should have advantages over skills that can be used universally. They have even demonstrated this with the recent changes to killers blade; it has the same damage and scaling as executioner but with some small added advantages that supplement the NB class. It goes against this sentiment to see vigor reverted to its healing values on live when dark cloak is nerfed to be a much weaker healing over time ability. I’m not saying vigor should see a similar nerf, I’m just using that as an example.

I think it’s also important to consider the balance between morphs of individual skills. Shadowy disguise is one of the strongest skills in the game in PvP, when you compare the usefulness of 8.1.4 dark cloak to shadowy disguise there is clearly an imbalance in the capabilities of each morph. This further distances the game from another commonly expressed sentiment by ZOS that we should be able to play each class with multiple different play styles.

Jaraal

ZOS knows darn well that nobody stands still except PvP troll tanks, PvEers pewpewing from the balcony in the Arena district, and AFKers at dolmens in Alik’r. This is more like a pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time for 150% heals kinda thing.

Of course, this could be part of the new “accessibility” program, too. Encouraging people to use less keystrokes to streamline and simplify their ESO experience.

React

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's usage compared to shadowy disguise morph has to be at least 100 to one. but for some reason, this is the morph that they consistently nerf patch-over-patch. It's infuriating.

Just another patch where I get to go back into discord and mock "Thank God dark cloak is getting nerfed again, because dark cloak nightblades have been running RAMPANT in cyrodiil. All three of them. All three of those nightblades."

This is one of the most frustrating parts of this nerf, to me.

It is by far the lesser used of the two morphs. It was strong in high isle, but hardly broken and pretty much in line with the other heal over time abilities in the game. Those abilities were nerfed on the PTS, but are still useable. Dark cloak is not.

Really hope they give it a slight increase in healing.

IAmIcehouse

React wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's usage compared to shadowy disguise morph has to be at least 100 to one. but for some reason, this is the morph that they consistently nerf patch-over-patch. It's infuriating.

Just another patch where I get to go back into discord and mock "Thank God dark cloak is getting nerfed again, because dark cloak nightblades have been running RAMPANT in cyrodiil. All three of them. All three of those nightblades."

This is one of the most frustrating parts of this nerf, to me.

It is by far the lesser used of the two morphs. It was strong in high isle, but hardly broken and pretty much in line with the other heal over time abilities in the game. Those abilities were nerfed on the PTS, but are still useable. Dark cloak is not.

Really hope they give it a slight increase in healing.

Spreadsheet balancing and the destruction of class identity don’t make me very optimistic.

Billium813

Not everything needs to be good in all situations. Perhap Dark Cloak will only be applicable to ganking NBs in PvP. Just cause other classes have good heals, doesn't mean NB has to as well. Each class has strengths and weaknesses. NBs weakness can be healing. There are non-class specific heals you know.

IMO, the only across the board class parity should be damage. DK gets armor/mitigation, NB gets stuns/evasion/invisibility, Templar gets healing (group AOE and burst). Strengths and weaknesses people, its good for class identity.

Jaraal

Billium813 wrote: »

Each class has strengths and weaknesses.

But that's in direct conflict with ZOS's current vision: All classes equal (standardized), only with different particle effects.

MetallicMonk

Billium813 wrote: »

Each class has strengths and weaknesses. NBs weakness can be healing.

Sorry buddy sorcs have already claimed this weakness.

Billium813

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Each class has strengths and weaknesses. NBs weakness can be healing.

Sorry buddy sorcs have already claimed this weakness.

Dark Exchange? Really good burst.

Think of it like a venn diagram. Sorcs, DK, and NB get secondary, Templar gets primary

MetallicMonk

Billium813 wrote: »

Dark Exchange? Really good burst.

Think of it like a venn diagram. Sorcs, DK, and NB get secondary, Templar gets primary

Really good burst heals don't have cast times

babygangzsta

As a Current live Brawler Nb I totally understand there nerf on Dark cloak I run between 38-42k health depends on set i choose for my play situations i can crit for 6k heals per sec currently and its the only heal i use i run destro front and back bar all light armor no vamp etc.All this being said the 45% 8.1.4 is way too much on top of the already 50% from battle spirit I truely do not think zos realize the dps output some folks deal.I have already made a Brawler build still going forward with current changes where you can stand still to get the 150% and still have dps.

Jazraena

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's usage compared to shadowy disguise morph has to be at least 100 to one. but for some reason, this is the morph that they consistently nerf patch-over-patch. It's infuriating.

Just another patch where I get to go back into discord and mock "Thank God dark cloak is getting nerfed again, because dark cloak nightblades have been running RAMPANT in cyrodiil. All three of them. All three of those nightblades."

Hey, that's still one more than Daedric Mines users.

Dark Cloak and the Mines nerf have to be among the weirdest.

Alchimiste1

808 tics on pts from dark cloak at like 25% health. If they want to nerf it a bit from current live numbers fine, but to make it only good while standing still is just such an annoying change.

DrSlaughtr

React wrote: »

On 8.1.4, I'm getting below 1k average ticks while moving with 30k HP, which seems to be the PVP standard for most non-tank setups right now.

The nerf to this ability in PVP is far too heavy. In a PVP environment you simply cannot afford to stand still in any scenario where it matters, and the "150% healing while still" component is completely worthless for anyone that isn't playing some sort of pure troll tank setup. This skill was crucial to hybrid nightblade/brawler & magicka nightblade, and it is now not even worth the slot on your bar with no suitable replacement readily available.

I'd like to see the value of this heal bumped up slightly. It doesn't need to be some insane heal over time, it doesn't need to be the value that it was in previous live patches, it just needs to be a consistent and worthwhile heal so that "non-invisibility cloak" playstyles can continue to exist. Even a 15% increase to the tooltip value (mine was 1810 with 30k HP, for reference) would likely be enough to make the skill worthwhile.

Even on the PVE side of the game, I've seen numerous nightblade tanks voicing their opinions that the immobility requirement is counter-intuitive, due to many encounters requiring them to remain mobile. I understand that the developers are seemingly worried about the heal overperforming in PVP, but the current state of it is just terrible for the vast majority of players that used it previously.

I know we had a disagreement a few weeks ago but I competely agree with you here. While I don't particularly enjoy brawling on NB vs other classes, I love seeing those build running around and adding flavor to NB representation in pvp.

If DKs can finger blast from death to 100% with one to two skills, we can stomach NB dark cloak builds being able to stand toe to toe with other brawl builds.

xDeusEJRx

Billium813 wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Each class has strengths and weaknesses. NBs weakness can be healing.

Sorry buddy sorcs have already claimed this weakness.

Dark Exchange? Really good burst.

Think of it like a venn diagram. Sorcs, DK, and NB get secondary, Templar gets primary

Dark exchange? Good burst? That's hilarious. Both morphs of sorcerer exchange have a cast time and can be interrupted by interrupt abilities like crushing shock or deep breath.

Remind me of the last time you seen a DK get interrupted out of their coagulating blood or Templar out of breath of life/rushed ceremony or Necromancer out of resistant flesh.

sunshineflame

Good. Nightblades have the best burst heal in the game...they shouldn't also have a good HoT. Healing is over-tuned on that class.

xDeusEJRx

sunshineflame wrote: »

Good. Nightblades have the best burst heal in the game...they shouldn't also have a good HoT. Healing is over-tuned on that class.

Best burst heal in the game? Sorry I think you mean necromancer. Necromancer has a better burst heal and they get resistances making them tankier if they drop to low hp. Plus pocket healer ghost which heals insanely.

Nightblades hardly have the best burst heal or overtuned healing

React

sunshineflame wrote: »

Good. Nightblades have the best burst heal in the game...they shouldn't also have a good HoT. Healing is over-tuned on that class.

Your statement about healthy offering is flat out wrong.

Healthy offering has the same tooltip as resistant flesh, breath of life, and coagulating blood.

Healthy offering gives minor mending, and places a (stacking) dot on you each cast. There are no class passives that change the values of this skill.

Honor the dead is 75% cheaper if cast under 75% health. It also benefits from additional healing when cast on low HP (class passive).

Resistant flesh places minor defile on you, but also grants you resistances equal to 50% of what you heal for. In pvp, this is often in excess of 6k resists (approximately 10% mitigation). It also has a higher chance to crit below a certain hp threshold (class passive).

Coagulating blood grants you minor vitality, and increases in value the lower hp you are. This skill is the strongest burst heal in the game value wise. On live, I've hit 21k on my standard BSW/rallying/markyn/bloodspawn setup.

edward_frigidhands

sunshineflame wrote: »

Good. Nightblades have the best burst heal in the game...they shouldn't also have a good HoT. Healing is over-tuned on that class.

What are you basing that on?

Zastrix

And speaking on burst healings, you know that healthy offering doesn't always heal you? If someone near you has less health than you, you won't be the one who's healed...

IAmIcehouse

sunshineflame wrote: »

Good. Nightblades have the best burst heal in the game...they shouldn't also have a good HoT. Healing is over-tuned on that class.

...what? NB has a better burst heal than Warden and Sorc. That's it. And sorc's is technically stronger, it just dies all the time. But Honor + Resistant Flesh + Coag are are notably better heals.

Healthy offering is good. But notably weaker. Resistant flesh is by far the strongest.

IAmIcehouse

Billium813 wrote: »

Not everything needs to be good in all situations. Perhap Dark Cloak will only be applicable to ganking NBs in PvP. Just cause other classes have good heals, doesn't mean NB has to as well. Each class has strengths and weaknesses. NBs weakness can be healing. There are non-class specific heals you know.

IMO, the only across the board class parity should be damage. DK gets armor/mitigation, NB gets stuns/evasion/invisibility, Templar gets healing (group AOE and burst). Strengths and weaknesses people, its good for class identity.

In PVP, strengths and weaknesses should be coming in the form of class utility. Otherwise, what, we only see 6 different play styles in cyrodiil? Tank DKs, healing templars, ganking Nbs, etc? If you want to play a particular class, you shouldn't be pigeon holed into playing a healer, a block tank, or a ganker.

This nerf to dark cloak isn't going to change Cyrodiil in any notable way, because this morph is so seldom used. I just came back to the game after a long break, but in my campaigns, there've only been about ~3-5 people that choose this morph on arguably the most popular class, patch over patch. But it does rip off a whole playstyle for a class. Which IMO, is the most fun way to play Nightblade, which is why this change bothers me. But I've also *never* heard someone complain about Dark Cloak. Shadowy Disguise on the other hand? Nevermind, no one has ever complained about that.

Urzigurumash

React wrote: »

Coagulating blood grants you minor vitality

It does not, not since 2017, when this buff was moved to Green Dragonblood. Incidentally, this was the same patch both Dragonbloods were given the ability to Crit (although GDB continued to go off Spell Crit until the change to "resource agnostic skills" a few years later).

I bring this up just to correct React? No, that patch's change to Dragonblood is interesting here because it calls to mind the fact that it should be misleading to simply compare tooltips between DK and NB heals because NB is supposed to have substantially higher Crit Chance than DK - much more than just the Minor Savagery value.

Changes to Armor Passives and Crit Chance have diminished this fundamental difference between DK (originally optimized in 7 Heavy) and NB.

React

Urzigurumash wrote: »

React wrote: »

Coagulating blood grants you minor vitality

It does not, not since 2017, when this buff was moved to Green Dragonblood. Incidentally, this was the same patch both Dragonbloods were given the ability to Crit (although GDB continued to go off Spell Crit until the change to "resource agnostic skills" a few years later).

I bring this up just to correct React? No, that patch's change to Dragonblood is interesting here because it calls to mind the fact that it should be misleading to simply compare tooltips between DK and NB heals because NB is supposed to have substantially higher Crit Chance than DK - much more than just the Minor Savagery value.

Changes to Armor Passives and Crit Chance have diminished this fundamental difference between DK (originally optimized in 7 Heavy) and NB.

You're right - the passive I meant to site was "Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active.". So after using a coag, as long as the fortitude buff is active, you're receiving 12% more healing. But I guess that would also apply to volatile/hardened armor, so you could say that the passive isn't technically tied directly to coag.

Urzigurumash

React wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

React wrote: »

Coagulating blood grants you minor vitality

It does not, not since 2017, when this buff was moved to Green Dragonblood. Incidentally, this was the same patch both Dragonbloods were given the ability to Crit (although GDB continued to go off Spell Crit until the change to "resource agnostic skills" a few years later).

I bring this up just to correct React? No, that patch's change to Dragonblood is interesting here because it calls to mind the fact that it should be misleading to simply compare tooltips between DK and NB heals because NB is supposed to have substantially higher Crit Chance than DK - much more than just the Minor Savagery value.

Changes to Armor Passives and Crit Chance have diminished this fundamental difference between DK (originally optimized in 7 Heavy) and NB.

You're right - the passive I meant to site was "Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is active.". So after using a coag, as long as the fortitude buff is active, you're receiving 12% more healing. But I guess that would also apply to volatile/hardened armor, so you could say that the passive isn't technically tied directly to coag.

Right, for sure over the years most DKs maintained that passive through Armor rather than Blood.

But, still less of a buff to Heals than Crits. That passive - like GDB's Vitality - seems intended to be focused towards DK's identity of an externally-healed Tank, with Dragonblood slotted just for emergencies.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to the basegame classes, and since NB now has a "Flag Tank" specific Heal, I guess this mindset is even more outdated. Thing is Mist Form -> Vamp Ult outperforms any Heals for "Tanking Flags" in PvP.

Anyhow if anybody reading is excited to try the new Dark Cloak in PvP, make sure to lower your volume:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614538/glorgoloch-is-a-bit-too-clamorous

exeeter702

React wrote: »

sunshineflame wrote: »

Good. Nightblades have the best burst heal in the game...they shouldn't also have a good HoT. Healing is over-tuned on that class.

Your statement about healthy offering is flat out wrong.

Healthy offering has the same tooltip as resistant flesh, breath of life, and coagulating blood.

Healthy offering gives minor mending, and places a (stacking) dot on you each cast. There are no class passives that change the values of this skill.

Honor the dead is 75% cheaper if cast under 75% health. It also benefits from additional healing when cast on low HP (class passive).

Resistant flesh places minor defile on you, but also grants you resistances equal to 50% of what you heal for. In pvp, this is often in excess of 6k resists (approximately 10% mitigation). It also has a higher chance to crit below a certain hp threshold (class passive).

Coagulating blood grants you minor vitality, and increases in value the lower hp you are. This skill is the strongest burst heal in the game value wise. On live, I've hit 21k on my standard BSW/rallying/markyn/bloodspawn setup.

You say offering doesnt benedit from class passives. Soul siphoner passive means that slotting offering and even just one other siphoning skill puts it at a marginally higher throughput value compared to other burst heals in the game. On a NB built for healing, offering is mathematically the strongest burst heal but not by much. Before its nerf, however, when it was a selfless heal, it healed through all walls amd ignored elevation and was for sure the best burst heal for allies in the game.

Foxtrot39

exeeter702 wrote: »

React wrote: »

sunshineflame wrote: »

Good. Nightblades have the best burst heal in the game...they shouldn't also have a good HoT. Healing is over-tuned on that class.

Your statement about healthy offering is flat out wrong.

Healthy offering has the same tooltip as resistant flesh, breath of life, and coagulating blood.

Healthy offering gives minor mending, and places a (stacking) dot on you each cast. There are no class passives that change the values of this skill.

Honor the dead is 75% cheaper if cast under 75% health. It also benefits from additional healing when cast on low HP (class passive).

Resistant flesh places minor defile on you, but also grants you resistances equal to 50% of what you heal for. In pvp, this is often in excess of 6k resists (approximately 10% mitigation). It also has a higher chance to crit below a certain hp threshold (class passive).

Coagulating blood grants you minor vitality, and increases in value the lower hp you are. This skill is the strongest burst heal in the game value wise. On live, I've hit 21k on my standard BSW/rallying/markyn/bloodspawn setup.

You say offering doesnt benedit from class passives. Soul siphoner passive means that slotting offering and even just one other siphoning skill puts it at a marginally higher throughput value compared to other burst heals in the game. On a NB built for healing, offering is mathematically the strongest burst heal but not by much. Before its nerf, however, when it was a selfless heal, it healed through all walls amd ignored elevation and was for sure the best burst heal for allies in the game.

One trick pony like the rest of the class, DD without shadowy disguise is moslty useless, a healer without offering sloted can't burst anything and they need to slot most syphon skill to make it a potent burst where other get that from a passive without skill requirement