Patch 8.1.3 Combat Feedback

VadimAleks · August 2022

I am a werewolf. I've been a werewolf since release. Why am I being nerfed again because of some kind of PvP? Zenimax! Have you slept for a long time and don't remember that you ALREADY destroyed the werewolf's survivability many patches ago and the werewolf in PvP has long been a fluffy whipping bag? Now you also cut off his paws in PvE.

shadyjane62 · August 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

By now, I am 100% convinced that this PTS cycle is one huge social experiment by ZOS. There is no other explanation.

That would make us the rats in the maze.

Toxic_Hemlock · August 2022

My take is that although ZOS has a combat balancing team, they don't need to make them balance the game with a sledge hammer. Sure they reverted/modified a few more hated aspects of the patch, but IMO they need to fine tune, not rebuild!

Firstmep · August 2022

These changes really feel like they are trying to use duck tape to fix a sinking ship.
I appreciate that they actually read feedback, but none of these changes were well thought out.
Just as an example, wrecking blow and dark flare both had their cast time set to allow for easier light attack weaving , however now that empower doesnt apply to light attacks, these skill would occur a heavy dps loss with heavy or medium weaving over instant cast abilities.
Let's not forget that these skills had their dmg vastly reduced beacuse of the lower cast time.
Also empower now doesnt work at all in pvp, making these skills even worse there.

And this is just one example of doing changes without considering the consequences.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam
I really hope the team has something planned for sources of empower for the last pts patch.

prof_doom · August 2022

Firstmep wrote: »

These changes really feel like they are trying to use duck tape to fix a sinking ship.
I appreciate that they actually read feedback, but none of these changes were well thought out.

Let's be honest... there's not enough time left before go-live for any changes made next week to be properly tested, let alone checked for balance and consequences.

At this point, the only safe thing to do is revert all the combat changes, and start a fresh PTS after the new dungeons go out.

jaws343 · August 2022

Holycannoli wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I very explicitly said that Players using heavy attack build would see a buff from live. Which is true. Especially if they use Oakensoul, which now has permanent Empower. If you are a player running a heavy attack build, you WILL be using something with empower. It isn't a can or a want, you will be using it to be effective.

Which seems to be their intent. An overall nerf to heavy attack damage, to lower player damage, but allowing heavies to synergize with empower in a unique way to make heavy attack spammable builds viable options for decent DPS.

Are there a lot of people running HA PvE builds?

At the moment, not that I am aware of. But that is mostly due to a lot of the nerfs they have done to heavies over the last year or so, paired with the bugginess of channeled heavies introduced around Deadlands.

But, they have been incredibly popular prior to that. I got all my Vet VH achievements using a heavy attack build. Including the speed run.

Firstmep · August 2022

prof_doom wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

These changes really feel like they are trying to use duck tape to fix a sinking ship.
I appreciate that they actually read feedback, but none of these changes were well thought out.

Let's be honest... there's not enough time left before go-live for any changes made next week to be properly tested, let alone checked for balance and consequences.

At this point, the only safe thing to do is revert all the combat changes, and start a fresh PTS after the new dungeons go out.

Sadly that wont happen. But maybe we could have an off cycle pts like last time they wanted to mess with light and heavy attacks and test proposed adjustments there.

Problem is everything is tied to the new content, that has to be released, so theyre not going to delay the patch no matter what.

Billium813 · August 2022

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7677042/#Comment_7677042

Weapon
Dual Wield
Flurry: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs were being treated as Damage over Time in some cases.

If Flurry isn't a DOT anymore, then the Arena set Cruel Flurry should be updated too. Perhaps it should be changed to effect channeled abilities?
Cruel Flurry

(2 items) When you deal damage with Flurry, your single target damage over time abilities used within 4 seconds gain 1690 Spell and Weapon Damage.

I think you're misunderstanding. Flurry hasn't been treated as a DoT in most cases for a while now. The notes are simply fixing the few cases where it was, and this will have no change on the Cruel Flurry set.

Can anyone confirm that Cruel Flurry (buffs Single-Target DoTs) doesn't buff Flurry (was apparently counted AS a DOT for "some cases") currently on live? If it does, is ZOS confirming that Cruel Flurry never should have and intentionally, only buffs other skills? If it doesn't, then I guess there is no behavior change for Cruel Flurry and it's intended design is as it is.

Faltasë · August 2022

prof_doom wrote: »

Warden Changes
I still think you should change the Advanced Species passive back to a damage buff as opposed to penetration.

Scorch: I still think it should be 3 and 6 for both morphs.

Cutting Dive: So... now it just always does a bleed? I'm a bit confused over the wording.

Overall... you managed to actually make things worse. Just roll back all the combat changes, put out the dungeons, and give some serious thought to what went wrong.

I really really really hope they change wardens advanced species passive back to the damage buff. The penetration is awful.

Dayhjawk · August 2022

Empowered should be 20-40% damage with light & heavy attacks, but scales on all those factors you talked about. So those that enjoy the light weave playstyle will get 20%, those that prefer to heavy attack can have it scale up to 40%, those that understand medium weave can fall in the middle. This would do what you want to do. Effects all 3 weaving style, carters to everyone, and doesn't kill empowered as it's currently used. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

prof_doom · August 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvibZx6qjQ&ab_channel=NefasQS
This patch is officially a meme

jaws343 · August 2022

ColtonBrown wrote: »

Unfortunately, the changes are still unacceptable. Damage is still nerfed and players are still tired of the lack of direction. These changes make even less sense than the original pts notes. Empower is now useless to everyone who isn't a heavy attack build? Wow...

The bad part is ZoS will think these changes are better because lack of outrage, when the fact is everybody just gave up and left already. I guess they accomplished their goal in the end. Drive away all the players complaining with SUPER terrible ideas and then do whatever because they won't be here to complain anymore, then pat ourselves on the back because no one is complaining so our ideas must be GREAT!

I'll miss this game, but not the constant destruction of my characters, playstyle, builds, and rotations.

This cycle was the last one I was waiting to see, thanks for the great times and good luck with the future of the game. Maybe one day I can play again but that will require a complete change of attitude towards end game players and power progression. Content should get harder with each chapter/dlc, players should never get weaker!

I accept that I am probably in the small minority in my feelings, so I will walk away in search of another game that doesn't make me feel dirty for spending my money on it.

Thanks for the many great years and fun times ESO, but it's finally time to say good-bye. I held on wayyyyy longer than I should have.

You all really need to come to terms with the fact that ZOS' goal was to nerf damage.

Complaining that damage is still nerfed isn't really accomplishing anything. That was the point of this patch, to lower damage.

The_Lex · August 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

ColtonBrown wrote: »

Unfortunately, the changes are still unacceptable. Damage is still nerfed and players are still tired of the lack of direction. These changes make even less sense than the original pts notes. Empower is now useless to everyone who isn't a heavy attack build? Wow...

The bad part is ZoS will think these changes are better because lack of outrage, when the fact is everybody just gave up and left already. I guess they accomplished their goal in the end. Drive away all the players complaining with SUPER terrible ideas and then do whatever because they won't be here to complain anymore, then pat ourselves on the back because no one is complaining so our ideas must be GREAT!

I'll miss this game, but not the constant destruction of my characters, playstyle, builds, and rotations.

This cycle was the last one I was waiting to see, thanks for the great times and good luck with the future of the game. Maybe one day I can play again but that will require a complete change of attitude towards end game players and power progression. Content should get harder with each chapter/dlc, players should never get weaker!

I accept that I am probably in the small minority in my feelings, so I will walk away in search of another game that doesn't make me feel dirty for spending my money on it.

Thanks for the many great years and fun times ESO, but it's finally time to say good-bye. I held on wayyyyy longer than I should have.

You all really need to come to terms with the fact that ZOS' goal was to nerf damage.

Complaining that damage is still nerfed isn't really accomplishing anything. That was the point of this patch, to lower damage.

And yet resto heavy attacks are doing 25k. A recent DK parse with a resto staff hit 95k.

prof_doom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvibZx6qjQ&ab_channel=NefasQS
This patch is officially a meme

This

The_Lex · August 2022

This is what happens when you base all your changes on cold, isolated numbers contained in a spreadsheet cell and fail to think through the implications or ripple effects those changes have on others areas.

This patch is certainly a meme.

jaws343 · August 2022

The_Lex wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ColtonBrown wrote: »

Unfortunately, the changes are still unacceptable. Damage is still nerfed and players are still tired of the lack of direction. These changes make even less sense than the original pts notes. Empower is now useless to everyone who isn't a heavy attack build? Wow...

The bad part is ZoS will think these changes are better because lack of outrage, when the fact is everybody just gave up and left already. I guess they accomplished their goal in the end. Drive away all the players complaining with SUPER terrible ideas and then do whatever because they won't be here to complain anymore, then pat ourselves on the back because no one is complaining so our ideas must be GREAT!

I'll miss this game, but not the constant destruction of my characters, playstyle, builds, and rotations.

This cycle was the last one I was waiting to see, thanks for the great times and good luck with the future of the game. Maybe one day I can play again but that will require a complete change of attitude towards end game players and power progression. Content should get harder with each chapter/dlc, players should never get weaker!

I accept that I am probably in the small minority in my feelings, so I will walk away in search of another game that doesn't make me feel dirty for spending my money on it.

Thanks for the many great years and fun times ESO, but it's finally time to say good-bye. I held on wayyyyy longer than I should have.

You all really need to come to terms with the fact that ZOS' goal was to nerf damage.

Complaining that damage is still nerfed isn't really accomplishing anything. That was the point of this patch, to lower damage.

And yet resto heavy attacks are doing 25k. A recent DK parse with a resto staff hit 95k.

prof_doom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvibZx6qjQ&ab_channel=NefasQS
This patch is officially a meme

This

Nothing I said countered the idea that things still need adjustments.

But we have players constantly complaining that damage is still nerfed, which was the point of this patch and adds nothing to the conversation. ZOS intended to lower damage across the board. That isn't changing.

Restro heavies are certainly overperforming and need to be adjusted.

Sandman929 · August 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ColtonBrown wrote: »

Unfortunately, the changes are still unacceptable. Damage is still nerfed and players are still tired of the lack of direction. These changes make even less sense than the original pts notes. Empower is now useless to everyone who isn't a heavy attack build? Wow...

The bad part is ZoS will think these changes are better because lack of outrage, when the fact is everybody just gave up and left already. I guess they accomplished their goal in the end. Drive away all the players complaining with SUPER terrible ideas and then do whatever because they won't be here to complain anymore, then pat ourselves on the back because no one is complaining so our ideas must be GREAT!

I'll miss this game, but not the constant destruction of my characters, playstyle, builds, and rotations.

This cycle was the last one I was waiting to see, thanks for the great times and good luck with the future of the game. Maybe one day I can play again but that will require a complete change of attitude towards end game players and power progression. Content should get harder with each chapter/dlc, players should never get weaker!

I accept that I am probably in the small minority in my feelings, so I will walk away in search of another game that doesn't make me feel dirty for spending my money on it.

Thanks for the many great years and fun times ESO, but it's finally time to say good-bye. I held on wayyyyy longer than I should have.

You all really need to come to terms with the fact that ZOS' goal was to nerf damage.

Complaining that damage is still nerfed isn't really accomplishing anything. That was the point of this patch, to lower damage.

And yet resto heavy attacks are doing 25k. A recent DK parse with a resto staff hit 95k.

prof_doom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvibZx6qjQ&ab_channel=NefasQS
This patch is officially a meme

This

Nothing I said countered the idea that things still need adjustments.

But we have players constantly complaining that damage is still nerfed, which was the point of this patch and adds nothing to the conversation. ZOS intended to lower damage across the board. That isn't changing.

Restro heavies are certainly overperforming and need to be adjusted.

Agree, but I'm confused as to how lowering the ceiling raised any floors. I guess the answer is resto heavy attacking your way through content.
I'm also concerned that ZoS, in typical ZoS fashion, hasn't even taken a casual glance at what the DoT changes are going to do to PvP where DoTs are already underpowered. On top of that they release a set that breaks the buff/debuff system and another set that heals you every time any negative effect ends or gets refreshed...
In short, wtf?

The_Lex · August 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ColtonBrown wrote: »

Unfortunately, the changes are still unacceptable. Damage is still nerfed and players are still tired of the lack of direction. These changes make even less sense than the original pts notes. Empower is now useless to everyone who isn't a heavy attack build? Wow...

The bad part is ZoS will think these changes are better because lack of outrage, when the fact is everybody just gave up and left already. I guess they accomplished their goal in the end. Drive away all the players complaining with SUPER terrible ideas and then do whatever because they won't be here to complain anymore, then pat ourselves on the back because no one is complaining so our ideas must be GREAT!

I'll miss this game, but not the constant destruction of my characters, playstyle, builds, and rotations.

This cycle was the last one I was waiting to see, thanks for the great times and good luck with the future of the game. Maybe one day I can play again but that will require a complete change of attitude towards end game players and power progression. Content should get harder with each chapter/dlc, players should never get weaker!

I accept that I am probably in the small minority in my feelings, so I will walk away in search of another game that doesn't make me feel dirty for spending my money on it.

Thanks for the many great years and fun times ESO, but it's finally time to say good-bye. I held on wayyyyy longer than I should have.

You all really need to come to terms with the fact that ZOS' goal was to nerf damage.

Complaining that damage is still nerfed isn't really accomplishing anything. That was the point of this patch, to lower damage.

And yet resto heavy attacks are doing 25k. A recent DK parse with a resto staff hit 95k.

prof_doom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvibZx6qjQ&ab_channel=NefasQS
This patch is officially a meme

This

Nothing I said countered the idea that things still need adjustments.

But we have players constantly complaining that damage is still nerfed, which was the point of this patch and adds nothing to the conversation. ZOS intended to lower damage across the board. That isn't changing.

Restro heavies are certainly overperforming and need to be adjusted.

The point of the conversation is to give feedback on 8.1.3. People are pointing out the randomness of the nerfs and how disproportionately they are being applied to certain classes and skills. Nerf..buff, I really don't care as much about that as I do a coherent, unified, articulated plan. There is none. They claim to nerf damage and then buff things like a resto staff to unbelievable levels. Then they flip flop on what gets nerfed or buffed (i.e, surprise attack). People are rightly frustrated. Guilds are disbanding. People could handle things better if they knew the overarching plan. But, again, there is none.

prof_doom · August 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Nothing I said countered the idea that things still need adjustments.

But we have players constantly complaining that damage is still nerfed, which was the point of this patch and adds nothing to the conversation. ZOS intended to lower damage across the board. That isn't changing.

Restro heavies are certainly overperforming and need to be adjusted.

Their stated goal was to "close the gap", which starting out from the first set of PTS notes, people demonstrated they didn't achieve.

The problem is that as we've gone through the 3 weeks of the PTS thus far, each set of changes has been "messier" than the last, and I know I don't personally have a great deal of confidence in the idea of this update going out even remotely balanced, and likely even buggier than usual.

I don't know how easy/hard it would be to just rip out all the combat changes and just make this release the two new dungeons, but I think they'd be better off doing that, and starting up a new PTS right after with all the combat changes for a fresh, extended cycle of testing and balancing.

The_Lex · August 2022

ZOS, please, release the new content but roll back the changes. Go back to the drawing board. You are releasing sweeping changes on the last week of PTS when there will be no way to change something if it’s broken.

Four_Fingers · August 2022

This situation is why new content and balance/performance adjustments should always be in separate patches so they don't affect new content release keeping the suits and the players happy.

Hoolielulu · August 2022

The_Lex wrote: »

People are rightly frustrated. Guilds are disbanding. People could handle things better if they knew the overarching plan. But, again, there is none.

Had an emergency guild meeting last night. Things aren't looking great. Some people are trying to be positive, but most of the emotions are "furious" and "despondent".

Ardriel · August 2022

I really don't want to be forced to play a resto staff HA build with my templar to compensate the lost damage of jabs. That feels anything but right. This is ... weird

Please give the Templar at least a little more jab power back. Just a little. Please...

The_Lex · August 2022

Hoolielulu wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

People are rightly frustrated. Guilds are disbanding. People could handle things better if they knew the overarching plan. But, again, there is none.

Had an emergency guild meeting last night. Things aren't looking great. Some people are trying to be positive, but most of the emotions are "furious" and "despondent".

Sad to hear it for you. Hopefully things will turn around.

DeathStalker · August 2022

Nothing about this PTS makes sense. Take the stated goal of raising the floor. They have said repeatedly they want to raise the floor. How does nerfing class spam skills like jabs raise the floor? If doesn't raise the floor but lowers it, then why nerf class spam skills like jabs at all? My sub run out a week ago, I was hoping to renew but not if this is what I will be playing. I don't understand why ZOS doesn't get it. I don't care about the numbers if it's not any fun. This game just isn't fun anymore.

prof_doom · August 2022

And there goes another content creator

ColtonBrown · August 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

You all really need to come to terms with the fact that ZOS' goal was to nerf damage.

Complaining that damage is still nerfed isn't really accomplishing anything. That was the point of this patch, to lower damage.

I HAVE come to terms with it, which is why I left the feedback that I left. Just because nerfing damage was their stated intent doesn't mean I have to agree with it. It's not fun to lose damage and feeling of power progression patch after patch after patch and being sold the latest and greatest mythic or set to restore your character to where you already were. It's just not fun. My opinion, my feedback. Also not a fan of the whole "simplifying" combat approach. I tend to main classes that benefit more from complicated or dynamic rotations and quite enjoyed the "sweaty" high apm style of combat. It was the minigame of performing rhythmic muscle memory inputs that actually entertained me through some of the content in this game. Each patch it becomes less important and rewarding to play with higher skill level (again I know, decrease skill gap), but again, this is fundamentally against everything in my DNA. Higher skill should ALWAYS equal higher reward, and not on an artificially manipulated scale. The more you put in, the more you should get out. The less you put in, the less you should get out. That's just the way I feel, this thread asked for feedback, and I'm allowed to state mine even if it is contrary to the devs intentions.

This update is terrible. The attack against skilled gameplay is terrible. The whole attitude of the devs and their crusade against competitive players is terrible. I am not happy, so I am leaving. I am not alone. This is my feedback.

ZOS_Suserial · August 2022

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

Nevidyra · August 2022

ZOS_Suserial wrote: »

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

buff jabs and sweeps for templar already pls.

Enundr · August 2022

ZOS_Suserial wrote: »

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

with all respect , at this point it sounds like the players are not feeling listened to about these changes and that in all likelyhood should not be implemented for the time being , maybe put the combat changes on hold till a better solution is found that doesnt bother people as badly? of course there will always be people upset about something , it kinda comes with the gaming territory , but ive seen what happens when devs dont take feedback seriously......prime example id point you to the mmo Wildstar....player feedback was about them catering to the "hardcore players" when casual players were the majority , and they only did small things that amounted to....well...nothing....and ultimately the game shutting down =/ was a sad time as for me it was a fun game in its own rights. Just saying that the option for putting combat changes on hold for now after doing a thorough combing through feedback from the players and then revising changes and trying this at a later date isnt a bad option either. if nothing else it would settle the majority of the unrest with the players. Please pass this along ^^

Edit: There was a quote from a former blizzard employee that has always stuck with me as well for matters like this , its not word for word mind you , but in a nutshell nerfing one class doesnt make the other better , buffing and fixing the class that wasnt doing good before would make it better. dont think hes been with blizzard for awhile now.....i always felt it a shame since he wasnt there anymore , it was a good philosophy for balancing things to have in a dev that earned a bit of an eternal part in my heart about viewing the actions of devs ^^; im a casual player here these days due to RL issues (no trials and such) , but none of these changes seem to even come close to the concept of balance in my eyes.....i can only imagine how the serious players are feeling about the changes =/......another thing to consider.

Ragnarok0130 · August 2022

ZOS_Suserial wrote: »

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

With respect of the position you are in having to cover for the devs’ less than stellar choices and social media posts here on the forums, this post comes off like the crew telling Titanic passengers that they are over reacting that they’re taking on a little water while the lower decks flood. Nothing in this thread has been anything other than civil and constructive unless you’ve deleted posts.

I’ve seen patches exactly like this actually kill games resulting in their shuttering and many other long time gamers here have too. We are trying to convey to the devs that we love this game and want to continue to enjoy it. The community had the knowledge and experience to identify shortcomings and we’ve identified a disconcerting amount of them- many of which have not been addressed such as the healing nerfs. The push back isn’t because we don’t like change…we may not like the extreme frequency of ZoS’ sweeping changes (especially after they committed NOT to do them anymore) but the pushback is because this is looking more and more like a worst version of Morrowind and we want to stop the train before it reaches the broken bridge.