PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

CP5 · February 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dolgubon wrote: »

> A: Account Wide Achievements cannot be opt-in. As noted above, one of the big reasons why we decided to move to Account Wide Achievements is the performance gains we get on the backend. Being able to opt-in essentially wipes out any performance gains.

This makes no sense. Either opt in:
- won't make a performance difference, in which case, why not do it when there's so many people who want it, or
- There's so many people who want opt in that you think too many will choose character achievements, in which case why are you doing something you think so many people don't want?

[snip]

AWA gives significant performance benefits that matters to them more than player preference. They know full well it's a controversial change. Currently players are split pretty evenly on whether or not they like this change and it being better to people who enjoy it is a benefit.

[Edit for Bait.]

Significant? Do we know? Or is it just a minor thing that will result in a mild performance boost most users won't notice, but exist and is good enough for ZOS to try to use as justification? Nuking data like this, giving players no alternatives other than manual ones to track individual character progress, while causing more bugs than they can find across the entire game world as achievements are used for initializing or disabling content everywhere (since all content up to this point was made assuming achievements were character specific) is only going to cause problems. There is no going back if they do this, sure they will have a backup, but will it take a server roll back to us it, or will it just cause more problems as well? They're better off not doing this until it actually works, because once this goes live they won't be able to undo it.

spartaxoxo · February 2022

code65536 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AWA gives significant performance benefits that matters to them more than player preference.

A few seconds of reduced load screen time, at best, and it would not affect combat performance at all. If they think that is more important than destroying the histories that players have created with their characters, then their priorities are in the wrong place.

The question boils down to, what is going to give players a better experience? Waiting less on a load screen or not losing what makes their characters unique?

You do not know what it does on the backend though and what kind of new development it opens up. I would assume it's more than 2 seconds of load screen time.

I know what my load screen times are on Live, and I know I'm not yearning for shorter ones, and certainly not at the price that is being asked of us.

There's more to performance than load screens or even what we the players physically see.

Jaraal · February 2022

Yoma73 wrote: »

I don't understand the outrage. You, the player, did still achieve all your achievements, did you not?
And even on a per character base, nothing has changed. You either did something with that character or you didn't.

I'm confused

There are numerous quests, perhaps hundreds, on test that can only be done once per account. With AWA activated, the quest givers treat you as if you already completed it, and you don’t get the starting dialogue and are permanently locked out from ever doing it again.

That’s why those of us who have everything we want to accomplish completed on our mains are so against this change. Not only are we locked out from getting any more achievements with our alts, but we are not even able to redo the content. ESO has become a dead game for us.

It’s disgusting, to be honest. I will never trust this development team again, or believe anything they have to say. Been disappointed one too many times to ever respect anything they do from here on.

spartaxoxo · February 2022

CP5 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dolgubon wrote: »

> A: Account Wide Achievements cannot be opt-in. As noted above, one of the big reasons why we decided to move to Account Wide Achievements is the performance gains we get on the backend. Being able to opt-in essentially wipes out any performance gains.

This makes no sense. Either opt in:
- won't make a performance difference, in which case, why not do it when there's so many people who want it, or
- There's so many people who want opt in that you think too many will choose character achievements, in which case why are you doing something you think so many people don't want?

[snip]

AWA gives significant performance benefits that matters to them more than player preference. They know full well it's a controversial change. Currently players are split pretty evenly on whether or not they like this change and it being better to people who enjoy it is a benefit.

[Edit for Bait.]

Significant? Do we know? Or is it just a minor thing that will result in a mild performance boost most users won't notice, but exist and is good enough for ZOS to try to use as justification? Nuking data like this, giving players no alternatives other than manual ones to track individual character progress, while causing more bugs than they can find across the entire game world as achievements are used for initializing or disabling content everywhere (since all content up to this point was made assuming achievements were character specific) is only going to cause problems. There is no going back if they do this, sure they will have a backup, but will it take a server roll back to us it, or will it just cause more problems as well? They're better off not doing this until it actually works, because once this goes live they won't be able to undo it.

Presumably they have a backup specifically because they will be able to undo it, but only plan to undo it if it goes catastrophically. And they do not mean players disliking it but because of performance.

I have no clue the scope of performance benefits because they didn't elaborate. I imagine they are not small to do something this drastic. I have never heard of a company doing something this massive over saving 2 seconds on a load screen.

spartaxoxo · February 2022

[Quoted post has been removed.]

I mean that's how video game design works. For example, devs have lots of data they track that we the players don't see. They know exactly how many times we've killed that dude in Blackwood that blocked the writs for example. There is no counter on his head that we the player see, but zos can tell us he's been killed 92 thousand times.

Kesstryl · February 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

[Quoted post has been removed.]

Role Play involves playing a role, whether it be acting in a drama, movie, game, whatever, and when the game treats your characters like simple avatars of you the player and they're not people in a world, then there is nothing to role play. The game broke the 4th wall, now you are simply a player beating a game, that's it, nothing more. Your character is not a role, it's irrelevant.

You are not a player playing the game. You are the Vestige and the characters address you as such. YOU cannot play the role because it breaks the immersion for you. And that's legitimate. Other people will not have the same issue and have no issue playing the role. And some will even have an easier time roleplaying.

Immersion is inherently subjective.

Say that to my character Reynild who never started The Main Quest, but has become the Hero of Western Skyrim when NPCs start thanking her for stopping the Planemeld. Say that to Mai'la, my thief character, who never completed any zone main story nor saved anyone when in every zone she enters she will be hailed as a hero. I have a level 3 Altmer that I just rolled because that will be the only character I log into until, when, or if this mess gets fixed, and that will be to manage my guild. She will be parked at a bank and avoiding the world altogether because everyone will hail and praise her for everything ever done in Tamriel when the only quest she ever did was become a vampire. Yeah role play is subjective, but I don't pay a game company to treat my characters as one and the same, when all who, by the way, except one, have not done the Main Quest and have not become The Vestige. Only one character has done that. Each has done their own thing, become heroes in different places, took part in different stories, and none have followed in the exact same footsteps. When the game world treats them all as if they are all just the same exact character wearing a different costume, no I can't role play in that. Judging by the multitude of other people with similar responses to mine, I'm not alone in feeling this way.

CP5 · February 2022

They didn't think this through at all, and it shouldn't take more than the 2 queens sitting on Rimin's throne to get that point across. For years, they've used achievements to tweak the world in response to character specific progress, and some are even used to gate picking quest back up since apparently these quest could be repeated otherwise. Now that achievements are account wide, any sense of world consistency is thrown out the window with likely hundreds of edge cases that'll each have to be found and fixed, as well as content that can't be done anymore. If the performance gain was so massive that it justified these changes, they'd be showing it off, not using it as a backhand comment to address the community.

ListerJMC · February 2022

Well that Q&A was disappointing... No mention of how hard it is to track things on alts now or all the lost dialogue and replay ability? I am just one person and can't speak for the whole community of course, but I have encountered more people against this implementation than for it and was hoping for a little more dialogue about it than that. I am really not looking forward to this patch, sorry. I mean how big a performance gain is it to justify losing all this?

spartaxoxo · February 2022

Kesstryl wrote: »

When the game world treats them all as if they are all just the same exact character wearing a different costume, no I can't role play in that. Judging by the multitude of other people with similar responses to mine, I'm not alone in feeling this way.

You are most definitely not alone in feeling that way, and I never said you were. In fact, I actually told you three times that I agree with you about the quests. That lowers my immersion as well.

But I also know some roleplayers who have celebrated this change because it will make it easier for them to do their specific roleplay. And then there are people more neutral to the change because it doesn't effect them much one way or another e.g. they only have one character.

And those people's opinions are equally as valid.

Nobody's personal taste decides the genre of a game.

Vulkunne · February 2022

I'm all for making Achievements centralized but I think ripping out individual character stats goes a bit too far.

It almost feels like a personal attack to be honest. It will clear out alot of profile data though. Sigh.

In fact, for some people I imagine its like the time they spent with that character never existed at all. Like wiping out someone's soul. Yeesh. Glad I don't have this one on my conscience holy mackrel.

So I guess we safely say now that MS Merger really didn't help matters huh.

spartaxoxo · February 2022

CP5 wrote: »

If the performance gain was so massive that it justified these changes, they'd be showing it off, not using it as a backhand comment to address the community.

They wouldn't be showing it off if it's likely to cause a witchhunt by the community against other players or would make them look bad to explain, which I suspect is the case.

Game performance can be so bad on console that you get stuck on infinite loading screens and have to close out. The system can overheat when in trials and crashes to desktop happen in groups a lot.

It could also be because of the issues people have been having where entire characters become messed up, like there was a pc player who's character lost everything because of a bugged achievement or something like that. Players have been reporting items disappearing out of their inventory.

Those incidents have been pretty small in number but may be because of performance problems with the game from early development that they are just now trying to fix, including the way they used to handle achievements.

"We did this because we messed up so spectacularly in the past that characters could just spontaneously lose everything" wouldn't exactly make them sound good or be something to show off.

SilverBride · February 2022

Quoted post has been removed.]

And how are we supposed to know which delve or world boss or dolmen we did on which character? I like to play through every zone on every character and complete every quest and map objective but now I will have no way to track what I have or haven't done unless I spend hours writing up spreadsheets etc., which would take a ridiculous amount of time.

All I want is a way for the map objectives to not white out unless I have done them on that character myself.

[Edited for clarity]

silvereyes · February 2022

Deleted

ZOS_GregoryV · February 2022

Greetings again!

After another review, as well as removing and editing even more comments, we strongly urge all members keep their posts civil, constructive, and within the Community Rules. Bashing, Flaming, and Trolling and Baiting, are all violations of our rules, and are stated as follows:

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.
Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

At this time, we highly recommend everyone take a few moments and review the rules, to help avoid any further troubles. We have reopened the thread, and will be keeping a watchful eye.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

spartaxoxo · February 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed.]

And how are we supposed to know which delve or world boss or dolmen we did on which character? I like to play through every zone on every character and complete every quest and map objective but now I will have no way to track what I have or haven't done unless I spend hours writing up spreadsheets etc., which would take a ridiculous amount of time.

All I want is a way for the map objectives to not white out unless I have done them on that character myself. WoW figured out how to do it. It can't be that hard.

I think they should add a character specific quest tracker into the game that shows you all quests you have completed. They could then also add a quest that tells you to do those locations. While they are at it, tie the dialogue to the quest tracker.

They already have to still keep track of individual quest progression anyway. Since they can't throw that information out, might as well display it.

spartaxoxo · February 2022

silvereyes wrote: »

First of all, there is no universe in which ZOS is tracking kill counts on every unique NPC in the game and haven't already thrown that useless data out as a first step towards optimizations.

They definitely have that info and that information is pretty vital to the business side of things. Rich Lambert actually told us just before that infamous pvp stream how many times that NPC had been killed. It was not a random example.

Every MMO has things players don't see related to perfomance and to their ability to track players to run their business.

SilverBride · February 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed.]

And how are we supposed to know which delve or world boss or dolmen we did on which character? I like to play through every zone on every character and complete every quest and map objective but now I will have no way to track what I have or haven't done unless I spend hours writing up spreadsheets etc., which would take a ridiculous amount of time.

All I want is a way for the map objectives to not white out unless I have done them on that character myself. WoW figured out how to do it. It can't be that hard.

I think they should add a character specific quest tracker into the game that shows you all quests you have completed. They could then also add a quest that tells you to do those locations. While they are at it, tie the dialogue to the quest tracker.

They already have to still keep track of individual quest progression anyway. Since they can't throw that information out, might as well display it.

I have an addon that tracks my quests so that I don't miss any out of the way quests of which there are many. But there is no addon that tells me which world boss or delve or dolmen or public dungeon bosses I have done. Completing these is some of the most fun I have had in game. So what do I do now?

I logged in today but all I did was work on decorating one of my houses. I didn't have it in me to work on the zone I had started on my first alt in over 2 years, because it seems pointless now.

Kesstryl · February 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed.]

And how are we supposed to know which delve or world boss or dolmen we did on which character? I like to play through every zone on every character and complete every quest and map objective but now I will have no way to track what I have or haven't done unless I spend hours writing up spreadsheets etc., which would take a ridiculous amount of time.

All I want is a way for the map objectives to not white out unless I have done them on that character myself. WoW figured out how to do it. It can't be that hard.

I think they should add a character specific quest tracker into the game that shows you all quests you have completed. They could then also add a quest that tells you to do those locations. While they are at it, tie the dialogue to the quest tracker.

They already have to still keep track of individual quest progression anyway. Since they can't throw that information out, might as well display it.

I would be so happy with this

KaGaOri · February 2022

Account Wide Achievements is one of those things I've genuinely thought I wanted, but after getting info on how ZOS decided to approach this I just don't want them anymore. Was looking forward to having account wide counters for things like "kill x enemies y" or "collect rare object a, b, c and d" and even "have noone in group fall into lava in dungeon x". What I absolutely never wanted (and don't understand why ZOS would do it) is having quest and zone completion account wide.

The quests, stories and exploration are the main reason for me to play. Currently replaying AD base game story on Altmer alt with plans to continue chronologically to Summerset dlc for extra story tidbits and race related dialogue my Dunmer main never got. If all zone content gets auto completed when update 33 goes live what's the point of playing anymore?

The other thing is, I'm trying to build a tank. I'm not all that good player, never tanked in any game before and the learning curve is pretty steep. A lot of times I'm just repeatedly knocked down on my butt because I can't do mechanic quite right, or try blocking what should be dodged etc. Every achievement for dungeon completion (besides of being tracker of what I've done already) is a badge of honor to me, because not only have I completed it - I've successfully takned it. Might not be big deal for end game tank player who can tank vet trials like it was nothing, but it is big deal for me. Because that achievement coming up is the only form of acknowledgement of finally succeeding at something I couldn't do before. My dd main have done all dungeons in the game at least on normal, many also on vet. So, now after all that hard work I get nothing.

If it goes live as it is, not looking forward to update 33 at all. Despite ZOS trying to tell us we (= the ESO player base) are gaining something with this change, it feels like one big loss from where I stand.

TPishek · February 2022

KaGaOri wrote: »

If all zone content gets auto completed when update 33 goes live what's the point of playing anymore?

It doesn't, you can still do the quests on other characters. You just aren't able to get the achievements for doing the quests more than once, but they are still available to do and experience.

nightstrike · February 2022

The thing that bothers me most about this change is that I can't really ever get achievements for real. So many achievements I have because I was doing a thing as part of an event or some such, and I did it on a character who wasn't lore friendly. So for instance, maybe I need to run a dungeon to get a key to buy a style that's dropping now. So I run it with a group that blitzes ahead, I contribute nothing, and I get a clear achievement. It sucks. So I do it on a character where I don't care about that, and I save the role play for a character where I do care.

But now, that's all lost. I basically can't experience the game I paid for any longer. And there's no refund. That sucks.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · February 2022

Varana wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Hyperbole maybe not but some people here are definitly exagerating, like a few post back one was stating that eso didnt qualify for the rpg part anymore due to the lost of single character acheivement. 100% sure that not all rpgs have acheivements

But for the umpteenth time, they have a character history. Whether you call that achievements, journal, archived quests, or pinkfluffybunnies, doesn't matter.
ESO doesn't even let you access journal entries for quests you have done.
It did have a list of completed quest milestones, though... calling them achievements for some reason, but names don't matter.

Not all of them got anyting of the sort and are still called rpg sure they arent mmo but still are called rpg
Some dragon quest and final fantasy come to mind

Jaraal · February 2022

TPishek wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

If all zone content gets auto completed when update 33 goes live what's the point of playing anymore?

It doesn't, you can still do the quests on other characters. You just aren't able to get the achievements for doing the quests more than once, but they are still available to do and experience.

Nope, the quest givers consider you as having already completed the quest on the first character that got the achievement. The dialogue to start the quest is no longer available. And in some places, like Rimmen, you will see multiple NPCs in the same place.

The chaos when AWA in it’s current form goes live will be epic. And at that point, it will be too late to do anything about it.

nightstrike · February 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

The chaos when AWA in it’s current form goes live will be epic. And at that point, it will be too late to do anything about it.

It's not just the chaos. Even if it worked correctly, it's still broken by design. It still, even without bugs, destroys the ability to replay, the ability to EARN achievements. It's easy mode for people that like rewards for zero effort.

I *WANT* to grind out achievements multiple times! I paid for that feature! I want to start a new character like I just bought the game and earn things anew. And I can't, because the database is so crippled that removing 0.00000000001% of it will make it magically work again?

It's stupid and frustrating.

nightstrike · February 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think they should add a character specific quest tracker into the game that shows you all quests you have completed. They could then also add a quest that tells you to do those locations. While they are at it, tie the dialogue to the quest tracker.

FWIW, I use this:
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info580-HarvensQuestJournal.html

Caveats:
1) PC only (obviously)
2) Addon has to be running, or you lose the data
3) SV corruption = lost data, no way to recover
4) It's an addon, so could be abandoned at any time

Tubbybear · February 2022

Hi Fellow ESO players & Devs,

I've been playing ESO since beta but this is the first time I've been motivated to post on PTS forums. I've read every single comment in this thread and followed the development very closely. I've also tested all the bugs and issues with AWA on the PTS during the NA server copy. All of which have been well documented in previous comments.

Looking at the recent announcement and Q&A it would seem that AWA is green lighted to go ahead in it's current form.

I'll throw my opinion in the mix and say that I do not like the direction with AWA. I've already cancelled my 4 x ESO+ accounts with 18 character slots and have no more intention of logging in to preserve their unique character history. All which I've developed since 2014. If I could, I would ask for a refund on my collector's editions of High Isle. I'll view it as a sunk cost / donation to a game which I once loved.

As I've probably encountered or played in game with many of you here, please don't take this as an attack on anyone's views.

All the best.

@Loraden

OleandersOne · February 2022

[Quoted Post Removed]

And I'm confused. Who ever claimed that all main/faction/zone quests/achievements wouldn't fire again? There have been a few people who mistakenly thought so initially, but those misunderstandings I think have been mostly corrected. There is a huge gap between someone misunderstanding a very complex issue and someone willfully claiming something incorrect to muddy the issue or sway opinion.

SirBedevere · February 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

If all zone content gets auto completed when update 33 goes live what's the point of playing anymore?

It doesn't, you can still do the quests on other characters. You just aren't able to get the achievements for doing the quests more than once, but they are still available to do and experience.

Nope, the quest givers consider you as having already completed the quest on the first character that got the achievement. The dialogue to start the quest is no longer available. And in some places, like Rimmen, you will see multiple NPCs in the same place.

The chaos when AWA in it’s current form goes live will be epic. And at that point, it will be too late to do anything about it.

Wait, are you saying all zone quests can only be done once? Or just specific ones? Because I think @KaGaOri was talking about things affecting all zones.

nightstrike · February 2022

SirBedevere wrote: »

Wait, are you saying all zone quests can only be done once? Or just specific ones? Because I think @KaGaOri was talking about things affecting all zones.

The quests can be done, but the things that change as a result of the quest are based on achievements generally speaking. So people will congratulate you for accomplishing something you haven't yet done. And you yourself can't track what your character has done using achievements anymore, either.

SirBedevere · February 2022

nightstrike wrote: »

SirBedevere wrote: »

Wait, are you saying all zone quests can only be done once? Or just specific ones? Because I think @KaGaOri was talking about things affecting all zones.

The quests can be done, but the things that change as a result of the quest are based on achievements generally speaking. So people will congratulate you for accomplishing something you haven't yet done. And you yourself can't track what your character has done using achievements anymore, either.

Oh, well that's mostly fine for me, I guess. I usually play with sound and subtitles off and just read dialogs. Are there any NPC dialogs broken? Like, if I'm a vampire on one character, I won't be treated like a vamp on another, will I?