Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

There has been very little changed in the past few years. Sure Springs was replaced by Radiating, purge cost changed...rapids changed, but nothing about heal stacking and group purging has been touched, just the names of the skills have changed.

I know organized will beat disorganized. It should and will continue to do so. That has nothing to do what what I consider an advantage due to an imbalance. I've mentioned this several times.
I just don't like what I see as imbalances even when I benefit from them.

Also, I don't know if that "serious look" needs to happen. I don't know ZOS's plans for the strength of siege, but right now their current strength is zero against the usage of these mechanics in organized group play.

Siege is not zero against organized groups, what game are you playing? It is the primary cause of death even with shields abs dedicated purgers.

If heal stacking and purging is changed, then incoming effects should also be adjusted. When 59 people are chasing you, you have two options:

1. Purge
2. Die

If ZoS removes the ability to remove negative effects or stack hots against it, they need to adjust incoming negative effects. Otherwise it will simply turn into a numbers win situation. That IS the one thing groups won’t be able to play around. An inability to remove negative effects would be crushing. To everyone, yes. But also ball groups.

Kwoung wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

There has been very little changed in the past few years. Sure Springs was replaced by Radiating, purge cost changed...rapids changed, but nothing about heal stacking and group purging has been touched, just the names of the skills have changed.

I know organized will beat disorganized. It should and will continue to do so. That has nothing to do what what I consider an advantage due to an imbalance. I've mentioned this several times.
I just don't like what I see as imbalances even when I benefit from them.

Also, I don't know if that "serious look" needs to happen. I don't know ZOS's plans for the strength of siege, but right now their current strength is zero against the usage of these mechanics in organized group play.

Siege is not zero against organized groups, what game are you playing? It is the primary cause of death even with shields abs dedicated purgers.

If heal stacking and purging is changed, then incoming effects should also be adjusted. When 59 people are chasing you, you have two options:

1. Purge
2. Die

If ZoS removes the ability to remove negative effects or stack hots against it, they need to adjust incoming negative effects. Otherwise it will simply turn into a numbers win situation. That IS the one thing groups won’t be able to play around. An inability to remove negative effects would be crushing. To everyone, yes. But also ball groups.

If 59 people are attacking a solo player, and the player dies, how is there a problem with the game? I would ask why was that player alone.

I would tend to ask why would 59 people feel the need to chase down a solo player, did they consider him a threat? That is the more confusing question to me, yet I see it happen all the time. And no, not just during cleanups, entire zerg's veer to run down one poor guy passing by.... Really?

Soul_Demon wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

We've been at this for 7 years and never got anywhere.

Probably because to have an "open-minded" conversation requires all parties to engage in such an effort? If we were to take this post as a starting point, people who run in organized groups are already dealing with accusations of abuse, intentionally causing lag, and using euphemisms to cover up sinister motives. Hard pass.

Intentional is not the same as knowingly formatting in a way that makes inducing such lag inevitable. There is a point where intent no longer matters if you are aware. There are some guilds who will play top meta or nothing, even at the cost of performance and their own joy in their victories.

As for the all parties issue, couldn't agree more. That said, I hold on to a sliver of hope this conversation will be taken a shred serious (even with largely or entirely the same devs) under Microsoft. LIkely delusional, but one could hope that one of the executive board sees the easy ROI to be gained by near effortless fixes to PVP. That said, I don't expect this game will ever live up nearly to what its potential is.

PS: I'll note that while it may sound like I'm attacking other GMs and long-time players. There's no better people to give open input about what is actively being used by 'max optimized' comps that chokes servers heavily vs zergs (not to say the server wasn't choking already btw). If that's what max optimization for a group is, then it needs to be scaled back or reworked entirely. I don't see why knowingly/unknowingly doing these things matters when the conversation is at hand. People can argue back and forth in such a fashion on their own time. What matters is a conversation being made without such defensiveness. We just have to present what we know and go from there, as we have been. The devs can entertain a conversation when the guard changes or not, but if the veterans can't present a proper face as a collective on key issues.. then these conversation will continue to flounder as they have.

You are not alone in the hope this can be spoken about without the too common reflexive 'swarm' to protect something players view as a right to use rather than a bad mechanic likely responsible for deterioration in enjoyment for others. After all its pretty easy to dismiss as it always has been with simple stalling tactic or baiting or otherwise getting thread closed to silence those who would discuss openly these things.....just a few well placed "what is the topic", "you accuse xxxxx" or "what was the definition" has consistently worked in the past to keep from getting to the heart of the issues in PvP where play-styles are threatened.

It takes a pretty comfortable individual to talk about something they are using as consistently as this and be confident enough in their skill level to not resort to either falsely claiming others are vilifying them or pretending to not follow thread closely enough to know what the point of it all is. The point is to improve the game and experience for the majority of the players, not to upset and draw the ire of those who have used this heal stacking, cc flooding during lag as mainstay in play. There will always be posters who throw up the smokescreen when topics they are uncomfortable with come up---but this one seems to draw the most persistent ones to defend it to the death in the forum over the years and one that seems to threaten many more than others evidenced by the dismissive and combative posting rather than let the subject be examined in detailed way.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

We've been at this for 7 years and never got anywhere.

Probably because to have an "open-minded" conversation requires all parties to engage in such an effort? If we were to take this post as a starting point, people who run in organized groups are already dealing with accusations of abuse, intentionally causing lag, and using euphemisms to cover up sinister motives. Hard pass.

Intentional is not the same as knowingly formatting in a way that makes inducing such lag inevitable. There is a point where intent no longer matters if you are aware. There are some guilds who will play top meta or nothing, even at the cost of performance and their own joy in their victories.

As for the all parties issue, couldn't agree more. That said, I hold on to a sliver of hope this conversation will be taken a shred serious (even with largely or entirely the same devs) under Microsoft. LIkely delusional, but one could hope that one of the executive board sees the easy ROI to be gained by near effortless fixes to PVP. That said, I don't expect this game will ever live up nearly to what its potential is.

PS: I'll note that while it may sound like I'm attacking other GMs and long-time players. There's no better people to give open input about what is actively being used by 'max optimized' comps that chokes servers heavily vs zergs (not to say the server wasn't choking already btw). If that's what max optimization for a group is, then it needs to be scaled back or reworked entirely. I don't see why knowingly/unknowingly doing these things matters when the conversation is at hand. People can argue back and forth in such a fashion on their own time. What matters is a conversation being made without such defensiveness. We just have to present what we know and go from there, as we have been. The devs can entertain a conversation when the guard changes or not, but if the veterans can't present a proper face as a collective on key issues.. then these conversation will continue to flounder as they have.

You are not alone in the hope this can be spoken about without the too common reflexive 'swarm' to protect something players view as a right to use rather than a bad mechanic likely responsible for deterioration in enjoyment for others. After all its pretty easy to dismiss as it always has been with simple stalling tactic or baiting or otherwise getting thread closed to silence those who would discuss openly these things.....just a few well placed "what is the topic", "you accuse xxxxx" or "what was the definition" has consistently worked in the past to keep from getting to the heart of the issues in PvP where play-styles are threatened.

It takes a pretty comfortable individual to talk about something they are using as consistently as this and be confident enough in their skill level to not resort to either falsely claiming others are vilifying them or pretending to not follow thread closely enough to know what the point of it all is. The point is to improve the game and experience for the majority of the players, not to upset and draw the ire of those who have used this heal stacking, cc flooding during lag as mainstay in play. There will always be posters who throw up the smokescreen when topics they are uncomfortable with come up---but this one seems to draw the most persistent ones to defend it to the death in the forum over the years and one that seems to threaten many more than others evidenced by the dismissive and combative posting rather than let the subject be examined in detailed way.

Is that what you think?

That I and other players are so afraid of having this discussion that we go out of our way to derail and close down threads?

I have made numerous threads in the past years pleading with ZOS to make improvements and reforms to make Cyrdoiil more enjoyable for everyone. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here is a thread helping new players not get farmed by ball groups. Each of them unequivocally advocated for changes to reduce the effectiveness of "ball groups".

I have said repeatedly and consistently that Radiating Regen is too easy and too strong. That the Harmony Trait way disproportionally aids in the effectiveness of "ball groups." My posting history has been consistent in reducing the dominance of organized groups such that there were two well known organized group players who were convinced I did not partake in that play style and publicly berated me on these forums accusing me of bias.

I have zero fear of such a discussion. None. I was loud and clear from the beginning of the game that AoE Caps was a broken mechanic that organized groups such that I played in benefitted way too much and every patch I loudly advocating for their removal. I also loudly argued that only allowing group heals, a game mechanic mechanic that made the rules advantageous for organized groups at the expense of everyone else, should have immediately been reverted. If I felt a mechanic is not fair, not fun, I have been 100% consistent in telling ZOS to remove it, even though it often was determinantal to the play style that I engaged in.

You want CC immunity to function correctly for the full duration? You're preaching to the choir! If there are more frustrating ESO experiences that having a full stamina bar or popping an immov pot and still getting CCed or being unable to break CC, it's a very very short list.

You want to try something with heal stacking? OK, fine! I would much rather play in a meta where my opponents didn;t have 4 Radiating Regens stacked on them. I'm all for not allowing the same named heal to stack. Fine by me. It was also fine by another organized group leader in this thread, in fact they felt it would ultimately be advantageous to organized groups. I look forward to the time when I don;t feel obligated as a DPS to use a stupid restoration staff because Radiating Regen is such a strong skill.

You want to re-examine Purge? Fine. I think it's inconsistent that it is only restricted to groups. Let's open up that skill to everyone. Is it too strong? Yeah. I think we can live with more active sort of purging options that active placement of skills or interaction with players as opposed to the "smart" version in the game.

But these skills and mechanics were designed because of how much and how easy it is to put and stack damage and debuffs on players. Bombard is another noxiously frustrating skill that, like Radiating Regen, is too easy and does way too much. If heals and purge are going to get toned down, then the siege damage, which has been buffed numerous times because purge and heal stacking exist in the first place, also needs re-examining.

So, there's the discussion. There is nothing here that I haven't said numerous time years ago. You do realize that ZOS does not have a full time PvP developer? How much consideration do you think they're going to give to this between the introduction of companions, the further development of the new CP system, the ongoing controversy with proc sets, etc.?

It is what I think.....and I believe a quick read through of the thread can provide ample number of examples of each one of the things I mentioned if not several- Lets be perfectly honest here, there is a discussion within a discussion here as often is with many who decide to discuss complicated issues.....and there are those who are invested in play-styles that would rather NOT engage in meaningful debate on the subject matter out of either not wanting to adapt to changes or outright fear of having to change at all.

And then there are those who at this point believe the misguided attempts of the past to improve game-play were largely done with over reliance of either twitch streaming third parties that had financial ties to streaming the game or simply the largest number of players in forums posting on specific issues- both being problematic. Neither of those were representative of the community at large nor were they without significant bias depending on the motivations of the person. As far as what I think about you and your motivations, it seems quite clear at this point that you do wish to discuss some of the more ......troublesome issues we all face on a daily basis in cyro, and for that I commend you---expect pushback regardless of the validity of what you bring up. I think what you said is dead on with what some of our biggest problems are right now as a community.

However a a bit confused as to bringing it up with seeming to also relegate the points to being useless since they have been spoken about before to have nothing at all done. The points were made by another poster we may only have one last chance as Microsoft comes in to make some appeals to those still at ESO working on the game regarding what the relevant issues really are in the game that would impact most of the players and not simply be what one particular play-style wishes to push to the forefront......its a good point, it appears to me to be accurate as well.

Could be you were only frustrated (as many are) that we are at a point now that a PTS server is defunct due to the habitual ignoring of the hard work players over the years put into writing up documentation on bugs, problems with skills, over performing items ect to see now we are actually paying to be tested on live servers due to mistakes in the past......if this is the case, I get it. I do.....some of the work done and countless hours were such tremendous wastes of time for the players who cared enough about the game to put in serious work to improve it....but were treated with less than appropriate levels of attention in comparison to the work done for the game and community.

For the rest of the post I find your points on target and important to us as a community, but selected the CC flooding during lag and heal stacking as two I personally thought would impact the most players without ruining play-styles outright. Seems to me changing heals to do absolutely nothing to someone (no stacking at all) if players are at 100% health would impact a number of issues but not kill the play-styles it supports outright--- Same goes for the CC flooding during lag, sure they are skills, they are important and for some class' they are critical for the functions.....but we dont need to have the malfunctioning of the CC immunity discussed as though anyone doesn't know or is unaware its broken during lag and not functioning at all. In my opinion those two things if looked at and resolved and/or implemented would allow for no one to be forced to change their play-style and enhance the experiences a large portion of the community seems to have issues with at the same time. Win/win in my opinion.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

ZOS needs to implement mechanics to encourage and help players form these armies instead of everyone spread over the map like headless chickens because the map is blank.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

It is ironic that skills from the Alliance War trees, such as Rapid Maneuver and Purge, are limited to group only. Make these effect anyone around the player again. Or make them effect only self. I know...only self would be a death sentence to many groups as they are now. But these two skills are one reason that some ball groups are so powerful.

I agree with you that these are good skills, but they are not all powerful, even in groups. I think the more compelling issue for groups would be the over heals. When a ball group has hots stacking from every person in the group, they can draw on that over heal to gain more resources, thereby not only never running out of resources, but their health never dropping because of stacked hot. I would think that removing the ability to over heal would be more advantageous to the health of the game than removing purge and rapids. Rapids is almost pointless with the champion point change, and purge only removes one negative affect at a time.

Again, I refer to the logs of combat that ZOS has supplied us with and most healers over heal with their percentage being up in the 80% and over range. Now, they are not designated healers per se, but the fact that you can stack 5 plus hots of the same skill is why groups have the advantage over solo players.

I suggest removing the over heals. You can get up to100% health and no more. Once you are at 100%, it should be impossible to gain any more healing beyond that point. You should not even get hit with more heal stacking.

9/10 Removing heals is going to benefit ball groups because they can simply output more heals, while this decreases the survivability of solo builds.

Anything you do to make ball groups weaker is going to affect solo players more. Unless you start adding in punishments for grouping, which is stupid in an MMO (Note to ZOS: this was not a suggestion!)

Yeah, that has been the case historically, but I don't think solo players get many heals out there, so heal stacking doesn't help them much. If you remove the over heal/heal stack on everyone, the ball groups that rely on heal stacking over heals would be on the same level as the rest of us. I think it might even help with the lag a a bit. Spamming the heals wouldn't happen as much because it would just be a waste of resources. These groups also couldn't spam Balance their advantage. They'd end up killing themselves if they did. ;-)

But heal stacking does affect solo builds. If I'm reading your suggestion right this means that you wouldn't be able to pre-buff with heals. So you couldn't apply regen, vigor/ etc to yourself before you go into combat, which from what I understand is an important part of solo play.

Again, I don't buy the idea that regen affects lag. The AOE tests showed that.

Most of the suggestions I see on the forums seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what makes ball groups powerful, which is not skills, sets, etc. It's raid composition and coordination. If you reduce our healing we'll just add another healer. If you take away our purges you're only hurting solo players because we can apply more dots in a second than you can put on us in 5. The answer to beating ball groups is not nerfs or buffs it's more coordination among players in zergs and an understanding of how to counter ball group tactics.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

It is ironic that skills from the Alliance War trees, such as Rapid Maneuver and Purge, are limited to group only. Make these effect anyone around the player again. Or make them effect only self. I know...only self would be a death sentence to many groups as they are now. But these two skills are one reason that some ball groups are so powerful.

I agree with you that these are good skills, but they are not all powerful, even in groups. I think the more compelling issue for groups would be the over heals. When a ball group has hots stacking from every person in the group, they can draw on that over heal to gain more resources, thereby not only never running out of resources, but their health never dropping because of stacked hot. I would think that removing the ability to over heal would be more advantageous to the health of the game than removing purge and rapids. Rapids is almost pointless with the champion point change, and purge only removes one negative affect at a time.

Again, I refer to the logs of combat that ZOS has supplied us with and most healers over heal with their percentage being up in the 80% and over range. Now, they are not designated healers per se, but the fact that you can stack 5 plus hots of the same skill is why groups have the advantage over solo players.

I suggest removing the over heals. You can get up to100% health and no more. Once you are at 100%, it should be impossible to gain any more healing beyond that point. You should not even get hit with more heal stacking.

9/10 Removing heals is going to benefit ball groups because they can simply output more heals, while this decreases the survivability of solo builds.

Anything you do to make ball groups weaker is going to affect solo players more. Unless you start adding in punishments for grouping, which is stupid in an MMO (Note to ZOS: this was not a suggestion!)

Yeah, that has been the case historically, but I don't think solo players get many heals out there, so heal stacking doesn't help them much. If you remove the over heal/heal stack on everyone, the ball groups that rely on heal stacking over heals would be on the same level as the rest of us. I think it might even help with the lag a a bit. Spamming the heals wouldn't happen as much because it would just be a waste of resources. These groups also couldn't spam Balance their advantage. They'd end up killing themselves if they did. ;-)

But heal stacking does affect solo builds. If I'm reading your suggestion right this means that you wouldn't be able to pre-buff with heals. So you couldn't apply regen, vigor/ etc to yourself before you go into combat, which from what I understand is an important part of solo play.

Again, I don't buy the idea that regen affects lag. The AOE tests showed that.

Most of the suggestions I see on the forums seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what makes ball groups powerful, which is not skills, sets, etc. It's raid composition and coordination. If you reduce our healing we'll just add another healer. If you take away our purges you're only hurting solo players because we can apply more dots in a second than you can put on us in 5. The answer to beating ball groups is not nerfs or buffs it's more coordination among players in zergs and an understanding of how to counter ball group tactics.

Bolded the portion I believe is needing a bit more of background. If no one can stack a series of heals on themselves as means to draw from for additional resources and be impervious to damage until it breaks through the threshold of stacked heals waiting- before you take ANY damage......it requires all players react to what is happening right then, how exactly would the solo players need to do it if no one else is able to either?

The point of not allowing heals to stack is to make it so what you do matters more----pre heals and cc flooding into a group with ulti drops is---over done at present and leaves little to react to. Especially with things malfunctioning during lag scenarios.....I am not sure I see how the need to do it right now (as many are pre stacking heals) translates to 'dont consider it...because we need to do it to combat what others are doing now' the idea is none would be able to pre load heals.

If anything a solo trying to pick off a player in a group would get more success due to the lack of pre stacked heals on the member of the group who was peeled off.

I think you are severely underestimating the sheer amount of heals a ball group can put out, even without over healing. And I'm not talking just about regen, but your other AOE hots like grand healing, ritual, warden and necro skills, etc. That's not even getting into all of the burst healing. It's not as easy as it sounds to out-damage that amount of healing.

Besides, what you're suggesting is going to switch Cyrodiil to even more of a burst damage meta, which is explicitly what ball groups are designed for. Without that "shield" of over-healing people are easier to burst down.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

It is ironic that skills from the Alliance War trees, such as Rapid Maneuver and Purge, are limited to group only. Make these effect anyone around the player again. Or make them effect only self. I know...only self would be a death sentence to many groups as they are now. But these two skills are one reason that some ball groups are so powerful.

I agree with you that these are good skills, but they are not all powerful, even in groups. I think the more compelling issue for groups would be the over heals. When a ball group has hots stacking from every person in the group, they can draw on that over heal to gain more resources, thereby not only never running out of resources, but their health never dropping because of stacked hot. I would think that removing the ability to over heal would be more advantageous to the health of the game than removing purge and rapids. Rapids is almost pointless with the champion point change, and purge only removes one negative affect at a time.

Again, I refer to the logs of combat that ZOS has supplied us with and most healers over heal with their percentage being up in the 80% and over range. Now, they are not designated healers per se, but the fact that you can stack 5 plus hots of the same skill is why groups have the advantage over solo players.

I suggest removing the over heals. You can get up to100% health and no more. Once you are at 100%, it should be impossible to gain any more healing beyond that point. You should not even get hit with more heal stacking.

9/10 Removing heals is going to benefit ball groups because they can simply output more heals, while this decreases the survivability of solo builds.

Anything you do to make ball groups weaker is going to affect solo players more. Unless you start adding in punishments for grouping, which is stupid in an MMO (Note to ZOS: this was not a suggestion!)

Yeah, that has been the case historically, but I don't think solo players get many heals out there, so heal stacking doesn't help them much. If you remove the over heal/heal stack on everyone, the ball groups that rely on heal stacking over heals would be on the same level as the rest of us. I think it might even help with the lag a a bit. Spamming the heals wouldn't happen as much because it would just be a waste of resources. These groups also couldn't spam Balance their advantage. They'd end up killing themselves if they did. ;-)

But heal stacking does affect solo builds. If I'm reading your suggestion right this means that you wouldn't be able to pre-buff with heals. So you couldn't apply regen, vigor/ etc to yourself before you go into combat, which from what I understand is an important part of solo play.

Again, I don't buy the idea that regen affects lag. The AOE tests showed that.

Most of the suggestions I see on the forums seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what makes ball groups powerful, which is not skills, sets, etc. It's raid composition and coordination. If you reduce our healing we'll just add another healer. If you take away our purges you're only hurting solo players because we can apply more dots in a second than you can put on us in 5. The answer to beating ball groups is not nerfs or buffs it's more coordination among players in zergs and an understanding of how to counter ball group tactics.

Bolded the portion I believe is needing a bit more of background. If no one can stack a series of heals on themselves as means to draw from for additional resources and be impervious to damage until it breaks through the threshold of stacked heals waiting- before you take ANY damage......it requires all players react to what is happening right then, how exactly would the solo players need to do it if no one else is able to either?

The point of not allowing heals to stack is to make it so what you do matters more----pre heals and cc flooding into a group with ulti drops is---over done at present and leaves little to react to. Especially with things malfunctioning during lag scenarios.....I am not sure I see how the need to do it right now (as many are pre stacking heals) translates to 'dont consider it...because we need to do it to combat what others are doing now' the idea is none would be able to pre load heals.

If anything a solo trying to pick off a player in a group would get more success due to the lack of pre stacked heals on the member of the group who was peeled off.

I think you are severely underestimating the sheer amount of heals a ball group can put out, even without over healing. And I'm not talking just about regen, but your other AOE hots like grand healing, ritual, warden and necro skills, etc. That's not even getting into all of the burst healing. It's not as easy as it sounds to out-damage that amount of healing.

Besides, what you're suggesting is going to switch Cyrodiil to even more of a burst damage meta, which is explicitly what ball groups are designed for. Without that "shield" of over-healing people are easier to burst down.

Not at all......matter of fact I have mentioned this before, my goal is not to overly impact any particular playstyle but to improve the playability for the largest number of players. I would not want to simply attack ball groups playstyle, as its in my opinion needed and quite valid....I am attempting to address changes I think would result in much better play without destroying a playstyle.

If you cast a heal on player who is at 100% health, nothing at all should happen to them- skill should not even register unless they have damage on them when you cast it. The companion fix would be to have CC immunity hyperfocused on by ZOS to actually be functional even if game is lagging---global 5 sec immunity after any cc break would be optimal.

This way no particular playstyle is attacked and players can continue playing how they want to play---but without heal stacking and cc flooding, the play itself would be much more enjoyable to those who experienced the 'stun locks' during lag that seem to be with many ball groups pushes. To me, this seems the logical approach as ZOS has not been able to deal with the lag, so simply fix the things that renders people unable to respond (and why they die most often) and the behavior of the stacked heals.....if you cant stack heals, you have to respond when damage is done, not pre loading so you cant be damaged until those heals 'expire' that were stacked. Doesn't kill ball group play, doesn't kill any play but forces changes to what in my mind is causing the biggest problems.

I'll agree with you on the CC immunity. However,

No particular playstyle is attacked? Dude that radically changes the way heals are used in the game and turns healing into an unintuitive mess. It will make hots completely obsolete. If you think that's going to make it easier on pug healers, you're mistaken. Because, as I feel I reiterate every time one of these threads come up ball groups can can compensate to these wild meta changes but solo players cannot