Ball Groups: A National Concern

DrSlaughtr

The other thread was closed because of mean people. Let's have a constructive thread.

Ball groups aren't going anywhere. Change whatever you want, the players will adapt.

The issue for me is that they tend to exploit inherent weakness in the combat system while also overloading the server with aoe spasm that further make it hard to kill them.

Strategically, they can avoid most attacks by going into towers which also prevents the most effective counter attacks.

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

What if resource towers were destructible?

If groups want to ball up, I'm all for it. But there needs to be a better counter than sending 30 people to kill 12. I think ball groups might actually enjoy a better challenge but hey, easy ap is hard to turn down.

Any other (non trollish) ideas?

Ackwalan

Change the way heals and CC stack.

Amottica

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

DrSlaughtr

They're a comp group with dedicated damage and healers. IMO most try to take advantage of cheese mechanics, like spin to win groups. There's nothing wrong with that. It's part of the game. I use to desync people with snipe all day long.

My issue is the last of credible counters to their strats, hence the post. Nerfing them is unpopular nor is it needed.

Ackwalan

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

A ball group and an organized group are not the same thing. An organized group will uses classes, skills and gear to be the best they can. A ball group will stack a few select skills and gear to the point of being an exploit.

Firstmep

Last time I checked resource towers were destroy able? Did they change that?
Best thing to do aganist tower farming grps is to not feed them, if they want to take a serious objective like a keep than they would have to come out in the open.
You absolutely don't have to fight them otherwise, as these groups usually specialize in killing zergs or other groups.
That being said, removing hot stacking would go a long way for both weakening ball grps and bettering performance.

Kwoung

6 of us killed like 4 ball groups tonight, either directly or with zerg help. The easiest was taking out the healer in the corner while they tried to clear everyone on the back flag, after which the entire ball was ripped apart by the local zerg. It really isn't very hard to kill them now with even the slightest planning and execution.

Learn their tactics, stay a move ahead of them and they can be overcome fairly easily. Each group has their own style, learn them and exploit their weakness. If you are in a group hunting them, they probably have a tab target on one of you and know exactly where you are at all times, figure out who and use that to fake them into making a bad move.

maxjapank

Inevitable Detonation used to be one effective way for pugs to beat groups. Still is. But with how you are consistently stuck in combat, you often cannot slot it to fight back. And it's not really so effective in fighting anything else so it's hard to find anyone with it slotted these days. But I do remember times when several in zone would call out for slotting it, several would, and suddenly the ball groups would be exploding. It was one way.

Kwoung

maxjapank wrote: »

Inevitable Detonation used to be one effective way for pugs to beat groups. Still is. But with how you are consistently stuck in combat, you often cannot slot it to fight back. And it's not really so effective in fighting anything else so it's hard to find anyone with it slotted these days. But I do remember times when several in zone would call out for slotting it, several would, and suddenly the ball groups would be exploding. It was one way.

I will disagree, I get hit and see others hit with it constantly of late. I don't think half the players even know what it is though, since they have it on them and run right back to their friends to detonate. All in all it isn't that useful though, simply holding block pretty much negates it 100%, unless you are dumb enough to run into a group of players with it on you. I run with friends and its a given that you move away if its on you, wouldn't be surprised if the ball groups do the same, let someone drop back a tad while they block the det then join back up.

Thraben

Obligatory hint:

First read THIS thread before you make any new ball group thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557515/ball-breaker-groups-heh/p1

Kwoung wrote: »

[...] since they have it on them and run right back to their friends to detonate. All in all it isn't that useful though, simply holding block pretty much negates it 100%, unless you are dumb enough to run into a group of players with it on you. I run with friends and its a given that you move away if its on you, wouldn't be surprised if the ball groups do the same, let someone drop back a tad while they block the det then join back up.

Real Ball groups cannot block the Inevitable Detonation in most situations, as this would slow them down and make them vulnerable. Furthermore, since they have no real ranged damage, they won't kill anything if they'd block the Detonation all the time. The only realistic counter to Inevitable Deto spam is to split up and fight in in small aggressive sub-groups of 3 or so, which is something only the top 3 groups on every platform and continent are able to. All the others will be just farmed mercilessly when they try that. The other option is to hide in places where you can break LoS (like rooftops), but this also limits the group's kill potential severely.

Jaraal

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

I like the idea of an additive damage siege. However, well used meatbags and frost lancers can break down a ball group fairly quickly.

DrSlaughtr

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

I like the idea of an additive damage siege. However, well used meatbags and frost lancers can break down a ball group fairly quickly.

My experience is a group with two healers can completely ignore siege, unless they aren't that good. It doesn't take much to cleanse and heal through the damage. Also there's the whole hiding behind indestructible environments to add to the difficulties.

Armethius

Ball Groups will melt if players construct the correct builds to take them down. You MUST have a ballgroup "loadout" with sets and skills aimed for AOE damage at scale.

You need some tankiness, and when they run at you run THROUGH them, do not run away. They love to chase in one direction.

If you don't have great AOE try laying down a little siege.

DrSlaughtr

We don't have loadouts on console.

I'm not saying they're indestructible. Yes they can be killed. But the time it takes often to just leads people to abandon territory.

As I said, my ideas don't nerf groups. I am just providing ideas for fair counters. People ball up because it's an easy way to earn AP and having been part of a long running ball group I know how easy it is.

Amottica

Ackwalan wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

A ball group and an organized group are not the same thing. An organized group will uses classes, skills and gear to be the best they can. A ball group will stack a few select skills and gear to the point of being an exploit.

Ok, thanks. However, OP is talking about a group that "strategically" uses the environment to avoid attacks. That does not seem to fit what you have said and seems they are merely being strategic.

maxjapank

Kwoung wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Inevitable Detonation used to be one effective way for pugs to beat groups. Still is. But with how you are consistently stuck in combat, you often cannot slot it to fight back. And it's not really so effective in fighting anything else so it's hard to find anyone with it slotted these days. But I do remember times when several in zone would call out for slotting it, several would, and suddenly the ball groups would be exploding. It was one way.

I will disagree, I get hit and see others hit with it constantly of late. I don't think half the players even know what it is though, since they have it on them and run right back to their friends to detonate. All in all it isn't that useful though, simply holding block pretty much negates it 100%, unless you are dumb enough to run into a group of players with it on you. I run with friends and its a given that you move away if its on you, wouldn't be surprised if the ball groups do the same, let someone drop back a tad while they block the det then join back up.

Ball groups strength lies in remaining a ball. If 2-3 players are spamming Inevitable Detonation, it packs quite a punch because of being able to hit so many players stacked in the ball. I’m speaking from experience of it working. But it needs multiple players having this slotted, and it’s impossible to slot it when you are stuck in combat.

Sandman929

Group play will never die, nor should it. There are, however, two mechanics that make the current group meta defensively imbalanced; stacking heals and group purging. IMO the group meta is stale and like all imbalances this needs to be corrected. There are groups, large and small, that move well together and coordinate damage well and will win outnumbered fights and that's not a problem. It becomes a problem IMO when groups employ heal stacking and group purging because that puts the groups defensive strength at too high a bar for anything but a massive zerg and/or lag or bad luck to overcome.

Zer0_CooL

TheEndBringer wrote: »

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

Tanks! We need Dwemertanks!!

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Resource towers used to be destructible, ironically they were made permanent structures because of 'lag' concerns from having too many destructible objects in Cyro.

Faded

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I think ball groups might actually enjoy a better challenge

Really? What about their current playstyle suggests they're looking for a challenge?

dotme

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Resource towers used to be destructible, ironically they were made permanent structures because of 'lag' concerns from having too many destructible objects in Cyro.

Quickly followed, if I recall, by the addition of destructible bridges and mile gates...

As for ball groups, negates, fear/mass hysteria/bombard/caltrops type things can interrupt their flow a bit but I don't know how many players slot those. Also lately, it's become harder to get groups (at least on PS4 NA) due to a combination of factors and ball groups seem to always find it pretty easy to farm/roll the solo/random player(s) out there.

Jaraal

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

I like the idea of an additive damage siege. However, well used meatbags and frost lancers can break down a ball group fairly quickly.

My experience is a group with two healers can completely ignore siege, unless they aren't that good. It doesn't take much to cleanse and heal through the damage. Also there's the whole hiding behind indestructible environments to add to the difficulties.

That's not my experience, but thanks for sharing yours.

DrSlaughtr

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

I like the idea of an additive damage siege. However, well used meatbags and frost lancers can break down a ball group fairly quickly.

My experience is a group with two healers can completely ignore siege, unless they aren't that good. It doesn't take much to cleanse and heal through the damage. Also there's the whole hiding behind indestructible environments to add to the difficulties.

That's not my experience, but thanks for sharing yours.

You're saying you don't see ball groups surviving siege and using nondestructable objects to negate damage? 🤔🤔🤔

Jaraal

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

I like the idea of an additive damage siege. However, well used meatbags and frost lancers can break down a ball group fairly quickly.

My experience is a group with two healers can completely ignore siege, unless they aren't that good. It doesn't take much to cleanse and heal through the damage. Also there's the whole hiding behind indestructible environments to add to the difficulties.

That's not my experience, but thanks for sharing yours.

You're saying you don't see ball groups surviving siege and using nondestructable objects to negate damage? 🤔🤔🤔

I'm saying I play against the best ball groups every day, and their biggest weakness is AOE siege. And if you think that's not the case, put a meatbag down in the field and see what happens. They will come to take you out of the equation.

Soul_Demon

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

I think a definition for most is ball groups tend to focus effort on play specifically designed to kill players where the group holds advantageous ground (choke points) or through excess in movement. If you want to break that into more easily stated goals they try to 'farm players' Organized groups on the other hand tend to focus on taking objectives on the map correlating to alliance score and faction advantage.

Both tend to run tightly packed to maximize the damage/healing/buffs/debuffs available to them and are highly organized in the nature of how they move......the biggest difference is in the choice they make in where to fight and how they either move or stay based on the previously mentioned goals each has. Of course some may use other criteria, but that has been my understanding of the differences for a very long time now. If you come across either groups you will notice they tend to select very different terrain to fight in as well due to the nature of the choices in play-styles the groups make.

Kwoung

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

I think a definition for most is ball groups tend to focus effort on play specifically designed to kill players where the group holds advantageous ground (choke points) or through excess in movement. If you want to break that into more easily stated goals they try to 'farm players' Organized groups on the other hand tend to focus on taking objectives on the map correlating to alliance score and faction advantage.

Both tend to run tightly packed to maximize the damage/healing/buffs/debuffs available to them and are highly organized in the nature of how they move......the biggest difference is in the choice they make in where to fight and how they either move or stay based on the previously mentioned goals each has. Of course some may use other criteria, but that has been my understanding of the differences for a very long time now. If you come across either groups you will notice they tend to select very different terrain to fight in as well due to the nature of the choices in play-styles the groups make.

I feel like most people drop any organized group of players into the "ball group" category. I have been told I run in one here on the forums, and we have even called ourselves a ball group on occasion, but our entire point is to take down ball groups and capture objectives, not to farm players. We are looking for good fights, which some we win, some we lose, as it should be, as combat can be quite fluid and a single decision at the right/wrong time can make it go either way.

From the forums here at least, I think this would be the types most people put in buckets:

Ball Group: Any group that follows the crown closely, uses tactics and is somewhat organized.
Zerg: Multiple large, mostly unorganized groups of players coming together over an objective.
Solo: Any non-grouped player, generally taking resources on their own or following a zerg for protection or free healing AP.

Yes there are other types; small scalers, 1-2vXers, etc.., but the three above seem to make up the bulk of Cyrodiil.

DrSlaughtr

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

I like the idea of an additive damage siege. However, well used meatbags and frost lancers can break down a ball group fairly quickly.

My experience is a group with two healers can completely ignore siege, unless they aren't that good. It doesn't take much to cleanse and heal through the damage. Also there's the whole hiding behind indestructible environments to add to the difficulties.

That's not my experience, but thanks for sharing yours.

You're saying you don't see ball groups surviving siege and using nondestructable objects to negate damage? 🤔🤔🤔

I'm saying I play against the best ball groups every day, and their biggest weakness is AOE siege. And if you think that's not the case, put a meatbag down in the field and see what happens. They will come to take you out of the equation.

We do it plenty, bud. They usually ignore it. Scatter shot is a little more effective.

PirateShaped

maxjapank wrote: »

Inevitable Detonation used to be one effective way for pugs to beat groups. Still is. But with how you are consistently stuck in combat, you often cannot slot it to fight back. And it's not really so effective in fighting anything else so it's hard to find anyone with it slotted these days. But I do remember times when several in zone would call out for slotting it, several would, and suddenly the ball groups would be exploding. It was one way.

Slotted this for years. It's a great skill that I think is underutilized. You will never get the damage of a proxy det surprise bomb but you get multiple smaller bombs. It is also more spammable than what people give it credit for. It will never wipe a good group on its own but it can be a lot of added pressure if there are other people supporting you. I actually find this skill more effective the better the group is. Simply because inev det gets stronger the closer you stack and the more often you purge.

master_vanargand

I often see Ballgroup using Blood Altar.
Moreover, Ballgroup uses 3-4 or more Blood Altar at the same time.

Why does Ballgroup do something seemingly useless?

[snip]

[edited for conspiracy theory]

Greasytengu

master_vanargand wrote: »

I often see Ballgroup using Blood Altar.
Moreover, Ballgroup uses 3-4 or more Blood Altar at the same time.

Why does Ballgroup do something seemingly useless?

[snip]

Blood altar has a very strong heal as its synergy and the healing from lifesteal really adds up.


Its no more server intensive than any other AOE ability, possibly less as it does not have to calculate the healing done. Minor lifesteal provides a flat 600 healing per tick. You can only have one instance of any major/minor buff on you at any time, so its not like the server has to calculate the healing from 3 different blood altars.


This blatant witch-huntery has to stop. Its honestly getting ridiculous, Nobody is deliberately causing lag, and furthermore, lag is detrimental to a group that tends to fight a larger number which is specifically what ball groups do, so why would they want to cause it?

Lag happens because the servers cant handle the load, because the anti cheat measures have created a data bottleneck, because the spaghetti coding.

Amottica

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

I think a definition for most is ball groups tend to focus effort on play specifically designed to kill players where the group holds advantageous ground (choke points) or through excess in movement. If you want to break that into more easily stated goals they try to 'farm players' Organized groups on the other hand tend to focus on taking objectives on the map correlating to alliance score and faction advantage.

Both tend to run tightly packed to maximize the damage/healing/buffs/debuffs available to them and are highly organized in the nature of how they move......the biggest difference is in the choice they make in where to fight and how they either move or stay based on the previously mentioned goals each has. Of course some may use other criteria, but that has been my understanding of the differences for a very long time now. If you come across either groups you will notice they tend to select very different terrain to fight in as well due to the nature of the choices in play-styles the groups make.

Again, please forgive my ignorance as I am new to this game.

From this explanation, it seems like the moth being drawn to the flame. Except for us, we can figure out that it is better to leave that flame alone and go somewhere else. That would effectively kill the use of these ball groups. Just a thought.