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Ball Groups: A National Concern
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Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
What is it that you as a solo player expect to do on your own against an organized group of 12? Write down some suggestions aside from "put down a piece of inventory, fire it, and kill half of them in one shot" and we'll see if we can help ZOS improve PvP since they no longer have a PvP developer that might actually spend time on this very issue.6 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
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Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
You won't do enough damage to pick off their healers, they have to many people that backbar a restro staff stacking regen. Not to mention the necro's in group will instantly group rez anyone. [snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 23, 2021 5:58PM4 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
You won't do enough damage to pick off their healers, they have to many people that backbar a restro staff stacking regen. Not to mention the necro's in group will instantly group rez anyone. [snip]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
The next time you see a ball group, try tab targeting a few of them. They will be highlighted and you can easily see them raise the staff above their head spamming regen. A lot of people think they are targeting the healer, when in fact over half of them are spamming regen filling up their ult and the true healers are safe.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 23, 2021 5:59PM3 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.0 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
You won't do enough damage to pick off their healers, they have to many people that backbar a restro staff stacking regen. Not to mention the necro's in group will instantly group rez anyone. [snip]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
The next time you see a ball group, try tab targeting a few of them. They will be highlighted and you can easily see them raise the staff above their head spamming regen. A lot of people think they are targeting the healer, when in fact over half of them are spamming regen filling up their ult and the true healers are safe.
Yes they all spam regen, but they still have dedicated healers that are usually in the back of the group. I don’t need to highlight them because I’ve been playing against them long enough to know them by name.
You asked me about a counter and I went into detail of a strategy that has worked for years. Since you don’t want to use the available counters then what do you propose as a solution?
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Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
You won't do enough damage to pick off their healers, they have to many people that backbar a restro staff stacking regen. Not to mention the necro's in group will instantly group rez anyone. [snip]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
The next time you see a ball group, try tab targeting a few of them. They will be highlighted and you can easily see them raise the staff above their head spamming regen. A lot of people think they are targeting the healer, when in fact over half of them are spamming regen filling up their ult and the true healers are safe.
Yes they all spam regen, but they still have dedicated healers that are usually in the back of the group. I don’t need to highlight them because I’ve been playing against them long enough to know them by name.
You asked me about a counter and I went into detail of a strategy that has worked for years. Since you don’t want to use the available counters then what do you propose as a solution?
The counter you mentioned are terrible. The healers don't stay in the back of a ball group, since a ball group is always moving and changing directions, there is no "back". Your strategy sound like a zone general yelling what other people should do, yet never do themselves.3 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
You won't do enough damage to pick off their healers, they have to many people that backbar a restro staff stacking regen. Not to mention the necro's in group will instantly group rez anyone. [snip]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
The next time you see a ball group, try tab targeting a few of them. They will be highlighted and you can easily see them raise the staff above their head spamming regen. A lot of people think they are targeting the healer, when in fact over half of them are spamming regen filling up their ult and the true healers are safe.
Yes they all spam regen, but they still have dedicated healers that are usually in the back of the group. I don’t need to highlight them because I’ve been playing against them long enough to know them by name.
You asked me about a counter and I went into detail of a strategy that has worked for years. Since you don’t want to use the available counters then what do you propose as a solution?
The counter you mentioned are terrible. The healers don't stay in the back of a ball group, since a ball group is always moving and changing directions, there is no "back". Your strategy sound like a zone general yelling what other people should do, yet never do themselves.
It’s worked hundreds of times in 7 years so again what are the changes you want to see? I’d love to see a change to heal stacking and a purge cool down, but if you’re just looking for a 1 button easy seige mode then I don’t think that’s healthy for the game.
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DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭A good ball group never leaves healers exposed to direct damage.I drink and I stream things.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »At what point does running around the 3rd floor of a Keep go from just clowning around to griefing?
It is a 100% legitimate tactic to make the decision to abandon trying to capture a keep because of overwhelming opposition and adopt a mostly defensive posture that involves mobility and LOS, and there is no better place to do this in a keep than the 3rd floor. It is the same reason why outnumbered players run around towers. The same reason why a single player will run around a rock. It's not written in the terms of service that once engaged in such overwhelming odds that defeat and death is all but assured, the player must stand still, go AFK, and make that victory or kill as convenient and easy for the mob of attackers.
This doesn't mean people don't intentionally clown around on third floors, resource towers, or rocks. But asking ZOS to adjudicate the difference or make a judgement call (laughable when they have no full time PvP developer or when no game-master has set foot in Cyrodiil since 2014) is going to create twice as many problems as it will supposedly solve. If I got a group of 12 trying to capture a keep and all of a sudden 30 bad guys come into the keep, I'm going up to the third floor to take advantage of chokepoints and LOS. It's on the 30 to get good and kill us. The 30 don;t need any assistance from the rules or ZOS.
This is such an insightful post. Players should make PvP fights challenging through their actions. Using the terain and structures to become harder to target is a legitimate tactic in pretty much any MMORPG I have played.5 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »At what point does running around the 3rd floor of a Keep go from just clowning around to griefing?
It is a 100% legitimate tactic to make the decision to abandon trying to capture a keep because of overwhelming opposition and adopt a mostly defensive posture that involves mobility and LOS, and there is no better place to do this in a keep than the 3rd floor. It is the same reason why outnumbered players run around towers. The same reason why a single player will run around a rock. It's not written in the terms of service that once engaged in such overwhelming odds that defeat and death is all but assured, the player must stand still, go AFK, and make that victory or kill as convenient and easy for the mob of attackers.
This doesn't mean people don't intentionally clown around on third floors, resource towers, or rocks. But asking ZOS to adjudicate the difference or make a judgement call (laughable when they have no full time PvP developer or when no game-master has set foot in Cyrodiil since 2014) is going to create twice as many problems as it will supposedly solve. If I got a group of 12 trying to capture a keep and all of a sudden 30 bad guys come into the keep, I'm going up to the third floor to take advantage of chokepoints and LOS. It's on the 30 to get good and kill us. The 30 don;t need any assistance from the rules or ZOS.
This is such an insightful post. Players should make PvP fights challenging through their actions. Using the terain and structures to become harder to target is a legitimate tactic in pretty much any MMORPG I have played.
It is a legitimate tactic but we have an inherent disadvantage because we cannot destroy towers and other environments. That is created by ZOS not the ball group coming up with some super cool strategy.
Since they will never again let us destroy a tower, much less trees or tents, then it's a fair statement to want some other way of countering that tactic. Current siege doesn't do the trick. You have to out number them and overwhelm them with CCs. A 12 person organized group vs a 12 person ball group shouldn't tilt overwhelming in the latter's favor.
Many but not all ball groups take part in some level of griefing and it needs to stop.I drink and I stream things.1 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭
Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
I see your point.....I am in the same mindset that running around in a circle using LOS and stacking HOTS for more than say 5 mins just doesn't do it for me. I personally dont care if someone else likes to do it, I mean I see 1vx'ers all the time fighting around rocks and trees and wonder "what is it you are accomplishing?" all the time.....but I guess for some players that is the thing that makes it fun for them. Though, gotta say after reading what ball groups say here really there is no way they can possibly lose, ever.
I mean if they lose three they bail out and go for camp- (they won, you didn't get all of them) If you kill all of them, its not skill at all, they were zerged by the whole faction (even if that was created by them in first place, they won because it was zerg) If they siege something and get too much resistance they just run around trying to get you to follow them (they won, they didn't want keeps, points or resource anyway) If they run the top of a keep but cant flip it they drop out and run (they won, not enough people chasing them who dont know any better for easy AP so they left) Discussion with someone who sees scenarios like that is not going to be productive. Likely to simply end with "well, its not against rules so" and if you doubt this just ask them.
So.....at the end of the day its a pretty well structured play-style only they can judge and its not based on camp score, keeps taken or alliance winning at all...but on what they tell you constitutes a 'win' and its gonna have nothing to do with camps, scores or alliance wins most certainly.
Don't misunderstand, I say let all players do as they will....but the amount of toxic attacking and derailing of virtually any discussion on skills that might improve play for the game as a whole they feel like they need to 'fight' against here is a real problem. I think they no longer can view the game and community as a whole in a way where the decisions are not 100% protecting what bolsters their play-styles now...maybe they could at some point, but now its every discussion and every thread they feel they need to rally in and try to bait players into fights in order to shut down meaningful discussions. Its a real shame too----the community could use some real improvements to combat and honest discussions on how things should work, not how they do work now.5 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
You won't do enough damage to pick off their healers, they have to many people that backbar a restro staff stacking regen. Not to mention the necro's in group will instantly group rez anyone. [snip]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
[Quoted post was removed]
The next time you see a ball group, try tab targeting a few of them. They will be highlighted and you can easily see them raise the staff above their head spamming regen. A lot of people think they are targeting the healer, when in fact over half of them are spamming regen filling up their ult and the true healers are safe.
Yes they all spam regen, but they still have dedicated healers that are usually in the back of the group. I don’t need to highlight them because I’ve been playing against them long enough to know them by name.
You asked me about a counter and I went into detail of a strategy that has worked for years. Since you don’t want to use the available counters then what do you propose as a solution?
The counter you mentioned are terrible. The healers don't stay in the back of a ball group, since a ball group is always moving and changing directions, there is no "back". Your strategy sound like a zone general yelling what other people should do, yet never do themselves.
It’s worked hundreds of times in 7 years so again what are the changes you want to see? I’d love to see a change to heal stacking and a purge cool down, but if you’re just looking for a 1 button easy seige mode then I don’t think that’s healthy for the game.
I've already said, heal stacking needs to change. Never said I was looking for a 1 button solution.
As for taking out ball groups, you won't take them out by focusing 1 or 2 of them then wiping them. They have to many heals/purge/cleanse that overlap. You have to use brute force and CC/stun at least half of them at once then swamp them.2 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭An enemy debuff within an unflagged keep is interesting to me, but not for the purposes of spoiling ball groups. I think it's an interesting idea to tie such a debuff to resource ownership for the purposes of spreading out fights on the map. Flagged or unflagged, some level of healing debuff on enemies within a keep that is tied to resource ownership would put more importance on resource control for both attackers and defenders.
Probably a separate discussion in this context, but rather than see this as a buff to defenders, I would suggest that any debuff is reversed and impacts the defenders if they lose resource control. This might help with another issue, faction stack defending a last keep. Being able to debuff those turtling a keep would be a nice way to weaken the defense.Edited by Sandman929 on May 24, 2021 1:11PM0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭it feels like we play completely different games when looking at the suggestions here.
A debuff to defenders is such a bad idea. Players are already encouraged to zerg down keeps and be on the offensive constantly. Ignoring defending due to the tick system. Outnumbered factions already have a very hard time actually defending their keeps and now players want further buffs to the faction stacks attacking vs them.
As is a debuff to already outnumbered (generally) attackers who are inside a keep after it has flipped and are trying to fight back.
If you don't like groups fighting inside keeps all it takes is a bit of coordination to kill them and move on. The problem is that players don't want to put this effort in and instead just want free ways of killing enemies they can't simply zerg mindlessly. This is part of the problem that has got ESO's PVP into this state.
I honestly don't understand what the end goal is from some players suggesting such types of systems. Like - what do you want Cyrodiil to be? For me it seems like some players here just want a Sieging simulator where there is very little NPC defence (just enough to make it not just a walk over but nothing too challenging) and that's it. Just gate and cap scrolls and be happy.
Enemies and challenges are a part of PVP to me. You aren't always going to win a fight and when you don't you should go away and change up your skills / gameplay / gearing / tactics to improve and do better the next time. It shouldn't just be that the answer to all problems is 'Nerf other players'.
Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on May 24, 2021 1:53PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)11 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »it feels like we play completely different games when looking at the suggestions here.
A debuff to defenders is such a bad idea. Players are already encouraged to zerg down keeps and be on the offensive constantly. Ignoring defending due to the tick system. Outnumbered factions already have a very hard time actually defending their keeps and now players want further buffs to the faction stacks attacking vs them.
As is a debuff to already outnumbered (generally) attackers who are inside a keep after it has flipped and are trying to fight back.
If you don't like groups fighting inside keeps all it takes is a bit of coordination to kill them and move on. The problem is that players don't want to put this effort in and instead just want free ways of killing enemies they can't simply zerg mindlessly. This is part of the problem that has got ESO's PVP into this state.
I honestly don't understand what the end goal is from some players suggesting such types of systems. Like - what do you want Cyrodiil to be? For me it seems like some players here just want a Sieging simulator where there is very little NPC defence (just enough to make it not just a walk over but nothing too challenging) and that's it. Just gate and cap scrolls and be happy.
Enemies and challenges are a part of PVP to me. You aren't always going to win a fight and when you don't you should go away and change up your skills / gameplay / gearing / tactics to improve and do better the next time. It shouldn't just be that the answer to all problems is 'Nerf other players'.
I think such a system would add importance to resource control. Right now, there is none. Speaking of zerging down keeps, there is rarely any need to take resources first, such a system encourages control of resources.
Where I agree this falls down is outnumbered defenders. If the attackers take the time to control resources, then yes, the outnumbered defenders are even more handicapped, but if the attackers don't take resources, the defenders are made stronger by that choice and the attackers are given a handicap.
I think in a "siege" it makes sense that resources are important. A successful siege cuts defenders off from aid (debuffing them), a poor siege doesn't and you are attacking from a weaker position (debuffed).
This isn't something I'd suggest for level any playing field between organized and disorganized, but I think it's an interesting idea to make resource control relevant to a siege.1 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is obviously going to be disagreement from just about everyone about what changes they'd like to see in Cyrodiil. Some people don't want strict PvP and want the land grab elements to have some depth. Resources have never been important to keeps, just some minuscule benefits to NPCs and wall strength, but a far cry from having any sort of real impact. I've never been sieging and gotten worried that a resource was in play.
If I were only interested in skill based PvP, ESO isn't the game I'd choose.0 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »An enemy debuff within an unflagged keep is interesting to me, but not for the purposes of spoiling ball groups. I think it's an interesting idea to tie such a debuff to resource ownership for the purposes of spreading out fights on the map. Flagged or unflagged, some level of healing debuff on enemies within a keep that is tied to resource ownership would put more importance on resource control for both attackers and defenders.
Probably a separate discussion in this context, but rather than see this as a buff to defenders, I would suggest that any debuff is reversed and impacts the defenders if they lose resource control. This might help with another issue, faction stack defending a last keep. Being able to debuff those turtling a keep would be a nice way to weaken the defense.
I like the concept here, but was trying to think of what might be something ZOS could easily work out---the idea of resource control tied to it seems pretty nice for spreading out players, likely helping with the lag I would think. Definitely dont want ball groups to be over penalized for doing what they do, but it seems there should be a bigger cost associated with not bothering to take keeps as you turtle up top on the narrow walkways where there is such a restriction to dealing effectively with them. If keep is unflagged for 5 min I think its safe to say you are not really interested in taking it, but farming in it....a 30% reduction to heals inside unflagged keep for enemies doesn't seem like it would be too much to me....if it goes on to 10 min I think maybe a 50% would be acceptable. I really cant think of any siege where the attackers would go that long and be unfairly penalized by this for a legitimate siege, its seems as though that would only really impact those looking to farm players....
Have some idea of how that might work for resources being tied? Or more of a current idea you are kicking around at present?
Edited by Soul_Demon on May 24, 2021 4:18PM1 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »An enemy debuff within an unflagged keep is interesting to me, but not for the purposes of spoiling ball groups. I think it's an interesting idea to tie such a debuff to resource ownership for the purposes of spreading out fights on the map. Flagged or unflagged, some level of healing debuff on enemies within a keep that is tied to resource ownership would put more importance on resource control for both attackers and defenders.
Probably a separate discussion in this context, but rather than see this as a buff to defenders, I would suggest that any debuff is reversed and impacts the defenders if they lose resource control. This might help with another issue, faction stack defending a last keep. Being able to debuff those turtling a keep would be a nice way to weaken the defense.
I like the concept here, but was trying to think of what might be something ZOS could easily work out---the idea of resource control tied to it seems pretty nice for spreading out players, likely helping with the lag I would think. Definitely dont want ball groups to be over penalized for doing what they do, but it seems there should be a bigger cost associated with not bothering to take keeps as you turtle up top on the narrow walkways where there is such a restriction to dealing effectively with them. If keep is unflagged for 5 min I think its safe to say you are not really interested in taking it, but farming in it....a 30% reduction to heals inside unflagged keep for enemies doesn't seem like it would be too much to me....if it goes on to 10 min I think maybe a 50% would be acceptable. I really cant think of any siege where the attackers would go that long and be unfairly penalized by this for a legitimate siege, its seems as though that would only really impact those looking to farm players....
Have some idea of how that might work for resources being tied? Or more of a current idea you are kicking around at present?
I would think some sort of timer would work for making resources relevant to the the outcome of the siege (defenders are weakened without them, attackers are weakened without them), and to me that make sense in the context of a real siege. Both defenders and attackers need resources for a good outcome. Since it's a game, and there is no option to starve out an entrenched defense, taking resources can simulate that disadvantage of a keep under siege.
Likewise, if a siege is weak (resources aren't under enemy control), the defenders are in an even stronger position.
Like it or not, Cyrodiil is built around being a "siege simulator".
Drifting way off topic at this point, but I think it's an interesting thought. For map strategy, and possibly for spreading out fights, having a way to weaken entrenched numbers and a way to weaken attackers through resource control. Cyrodiil has scoring tied to land, it's more of a land game, scoring wise, than a PvP game, and I wouldn't mind seeing a little depth there.Edited by Sandman929 on May 24, 2021 4:34PM2 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Soul_Demon wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »An enemy debuff within an unflagged keep is interesting to me, but not for the purposes of spoiling ball groups. I think it's an interesting idea to tie such a debuff to resource ownership for the purposes of spreading out fights on the map. Flagged or unflagged, some level of healing debuff on enemies within a keep that is tied to resource ownership would put more importance on resource control for both attackers and defenders.
Probably a separate discussion in this context, but rather than see this as a buff to defenders, I would suggest that any debuff is reversed and impacts the defenders if they lose resource control. This might help with another issue, faction stack defending a last keep. Being able to debuff those turtling a keep would be a nice way to weaken the defense.
I like the concept here, but was trying to think of what might be something ZOS could easily work out---the idea of resource control tied to it seems pretty nice for spreading out players, likely helping with the lag I would think. Definitely dont want ball groups to be over penalized for doing what they do, but it seems there should be a bigger cost associated with not bothering to take keeps as you turtle up top on the narrow walkways where there is such a restriction to dealing effectively with them. If keep is unflagged for 5 min I think its safe to say you are not really interested in taking it, but farming in it....a 30% reduction to heals inside unflagged keep for enemies doesn't seem like it would be too much to me....if it goes on to 10 min I think maybe a 50% would be acceptable. I really cant think of any siege where the attackers would go that long and be unfairly penalized by this for a legitimate siege, its seems as though that would only really impact those looking to farm players....
Have some idea of how that might work for resources being tied? Or more of a current idea you are kicking around at present?
I would think some sort of timer would work for making resources relevant to the the outcome of the siege (defenders are weakened without them, attackers are weakened without them), and to me that make sense in the context of a real siege. Both defenders and attackers need resources for a good outcome. Since it's a game, and there is no option to starve out an entrenched defense, taking resources can simulate that disadvantage of a keep under siege.
Likewise, if a siege is weak (resources aren't under enemy control), the defenders are in an even stronger position.
Like it or not, Cyrodiil is built around being a "siege simulator".
Drifting way off topic at this point, but I think it's an interesting thought. For map strategy, and possibly for spreading out fights, having a way to weaken entrenched numbers and a way to weaken attackers through resource control. Cyrodiil has scoring tied to land, it's more of a land game, scoring wise, than a PvP game, and I wouldn't mind seeing a little depth there.
Personally I think the concept is solid....any additional tactics introduced, and in particular ones that spread players while not taking the objectives completely out of play, seems good direction to look at. A lot of our gameplay interactions (social and otherwise) have been negatively impacted by group size reductions, having resources play into taking keeps more would encourage more coordinated play with small groups and solo players....this could only be a good thing. Could be it impacts lag to such an extent that it could make a big difference in the quality of the fights themselves for players at both locations. Inside and out.
As far as drifting, I mean I think there are several good ideas posted about HOT stacking and CC flooding (lack of global immunity that works) that are primary concerns for improving the players experience in game- Those to me take precedence. This one is just ONE more idea to possibly help in the greater view of play-ability, so on topic .....though a bit more complicated than the over riding problems we see today I think.1 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭
Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
Name one counter that can get past a ball group spamming heal stacks and purge. Especially a counter that a solo player can use.
First off I don't siege, siege only applies pressure and you need boots on the ground to secure kills.
Secondly I don’t run away from them in the pre determined path they want me to. I run through them or roll dodge to the side.
Third once they keep running after the other players thats when you pick off the healers and purge spammers in the back. Once they are dead the dps dies much easier.
Does it work all the time? No, but that’s ok I enjoy the challenge of fighting all different types of players and groups and is what makes cyrodill so great.
You won't do enough damage to pick off their healers, they have to many people that backbar a restro staff stacking regen. Not to mention the necro's in group will instantly group rez anyone. [snip]
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The next time you see a ball group, try tab targeting a few of them. They will be highlighted and you can easily see them raise the staff above their head spamming regen. A lot of people think they are targeting the healer, when in fact over half of them are spamming regen filling up their ult and the true healers are safe.
Yes they all spam regen, but they still have dedicated healers that are usually in the back of the group. I don’t need to highlight them because I’ve been playing against them long enough to know them by name.
You asked me about a counter and I went into detail of a strategy that has worked for years. Since you don’t want to use the available counters then what do you propose as a solution?
The counter you mentioned are terrible. The healers don't stay in the back of a ball group, since a ball group is always moving and changing directions, there is no "back". Your strategy sound like a zone general yelling what other people should do, yet never do themselves.
It’s worked hundreds of times in 7 years so again what are the changes you want to see? I’d love to see a change to heal stacking and a purge cool down, but if you’re just looking for a 1 button easy seige mode then I don’t think that’s healthy for the game.
I've already said, heal stacking needs to change. Never said I was looking for a 1 button solution.
As for taking out ball groups, you won't take them out by focusing 1 or 2 of them then wiping them. They have to many heals/purge/cleanse that overlap. You have to use brute force and CC/stun at least half of them at once then swamp them.
Not sure you ever need to stun them.....one of the more obvious things about them is predictability with movement in tight spaces. The very same thing that can amplify their effectiveness is a problem when they have run over a few with CC flooding and ulti dumps. Just before they hit its 90% they will turn around, immovable pot so they cant be stunned, cc flood the area and synergy/ulti down a stack of players following. You can be reasonably sure this will last for 10 secs and during that time they will have doubled back to the deaths at least one time to hit anyone who attempts rez's.
Seen this so often its pretty easy to spot and predictable in nature. Of course they move 'over' the players and around corner, but they almost always come back again---and if the 10 secs has expired they are now on cooldown and can only use skills- interesting point to notice about the play. Not arguing that stuns are not useful, but what I am getting at its to me more effective to pay close attention to the repeatability of the sequence---and on cooldowns they tend to move away very quickly for a reason.2 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »it feels like we play completely different games when looking at the suggestions here.
A debuff to defenders is such a bad idea. Players are already encouraged to zerg down keeps and be on the offensive constantly. Ignoring defending due to the tick system. Outnumbered factions already have a very hard time actually defending their keeps and now players want further buffs to the faction stacks attacking vs them.
As is a debuff to already outnumbered (generally) attackers who are inside a keep after it has flipped and are trying to fight back.
If you don't like groups fighting inside keeps all it takes is a bit of coordination to kill them and move on. The problem is that players don't want to put this effort in and instead just want free ways of killing enemies they can't simply zerg mindlessly. This is part of the problem that has got ESO's PVP into this state.
I honestly don't understand what the end goal is from some players suggesting such types of systems. Like - what do you want Cyrodiil to be? For me it seems like some players here just want a Sieging simulator where there is very little NPC defence (just enough to make it not just a walk over but nothing too challenging) and that's it. Just gate and cap scrolls and be happy.
Enemies and challenges are a part of PVP to me. You aren't always going to win a fight and when you don't you should go away and change up your skills / gameplay / gearing / tactics to improve and do better the next time. It shouldn't just be that the answer to all problems is 'Nerf other players'.
Pretty much everything in this post is spot on.
Regen is strong but for the longest time my ball group refused to use it and healed just fine. Nerfing any form of healing is going to hurt solo players more because we have healers to spare while they don't.
I'm still struggling to understand this mentality that solo players should be able to take on a ball group in a disorganized manner and have a good chance of winning. If you take on a coordinated army by yourself, you lose. Same thing here. We have more of everything, heals, damage, buffs, etc. Not because we're better players but due to the fact that we have more players that work together in a coordinated manner. As this last patch has shown, it's not just the sets either, because we haven't had those. The simple truth is the only counter to an organized group is an organized opposition You can nerf whatever you want, but unless you have overwhelming numbers, you'll lose against a coordinated group.
I realize that's not a very fun answer and getting smacked every night by an organized group isn't fun but it's a large scale pvp mode, and organized groups come with that.
I suppose ZOS could help the situation by making more things for small scale players to do. Make resources more valuable, etc. Which I honestly would like to see.1 -
Tigor✭✭✭Ballgroups are like running into quicksand. Once inside, everything is trapped. Then people say just leave it, ok, and than it is coming to you, and then? I call it a waste and destruction of a nice game.
I think developers should prevent the game to derail, and there should not be possibilities for players to do it.
But I also believe that players are coming online in the hope to let go of daily worries, and not create new onces.
The current state is vicious circle, and maybe there lays the answer.GM - Decimation Elite - Ebonheart Pact - Cyrodiil - aka Tigor (AR50), Leopard Tank (AR50) , Captain-Caveman (AR50), Tigors Claw (AR50), -Bud Spencer (AR47+)1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ballgroups are like running into quicksand. Once inside, everything is trapped. Then people say just leave it, ok, and than it is coming to you, and then? I call it a waste and destruction of a nice game.
I think developers should prevent the game to derail, and there should not be possibilities for players to do it.
But I also believe that players are coming online in the hope to let go of daily worries, and not create new onces.
The current state is vicious circle, and maybe there lays the answer.
I come online to play with my friends in a organized group, which is intended by the devs.
And you want to take that away.2 -
Tigor✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Ballgroups are like running into quicksand. Once inside, everything is trapped. Then people say just leave it, ok, and than it is coming to you, and then? I call it a waste and destruction of a nice game.
I think developers should prevent the game to derail, and there should not be possibilities for players to do it.
But I also believe that players are coming online in the hope to let go of daily worries, and not create new onces.
The current state is vicious circle, and maybe there lays the answer.
I come online to play with my friends in a organized group, which is intended by the devs.
And you want to take that away.
I also play in an organized group with friends, only what I talk about is different, the intentions of a group.Edited by Tigor on May 26, 2021 11:57AMGM - Decimation Elite - Ebonheart Pact - Cyrodiil - aka Tigor (AR50), Leopard Tank (AR50) , Captain-Caveman (AR50), Tigors Claw (AR50), -Bud Spencer (AR47+)0 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭neferpitou73 wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »it feels like we play completely different games when looking at the suggestions here.
A debuff to defenders is such a bad idea. Players are already encouraged to zerg down keeps and be on the offensive constantly. Ignoring defending due to the tick system. Outnumbered factions already have a very hard time actually defending their keeps and now players want further buffs to the faction stacks attacking vs them.
As is a debuff to already outnumbered (generally) attackers who are inside a keep after it has flipped and are trying to fight back.
If you don't like groups fighting inside keeps all it takes is a bit of coordination to kill them and move on. The problem is that players don't want to put this effort in and instead just want free ways of killing enemies they can't simply zerg mindlessly. This is part of the problem that has got ESO's PVP into this state.
I honestly don't understand what the end goal is from some players suggesting such types of systems. Like - what do you want Cyrodiil to be? For me it seems like some players here just want a Sieging simulator where there is very little NPC defence (just enough to make it not just a walk over but nothing too challenging) and that's it. Just gate and cap scrolls and be happy.
Enemies and challenges are a part of PVP to me. You aren't always going to win a fight and when you don't you should go away and change up your skills / gameplay / gearing / tactics to improve and do better the next time. It shouldn't just be that the answer to all problems is 'Nerf other players'.
Pretty much everything in this post is spot on.
Regen is strong but for the longest time my ball group refused to use it and healed just fine. Nerfing any form of healing is going to hurt solo players more because we have healers to spare while they don't.
I'm still struggling to understand this mentality that solo players should be able to take on a ball group in a disorganized manner and have a good chance of winning. If you take on a coordinated army by yourself, you lose. Same thing here. We have more of everything, heals, damage, buffs, etc. Not because we're better players but due to the fact that we have more players that work together in a coordinated manner. As this last patch has shown, it's not just the sets either, because we haven't had those. The simple truth is the only counter to an organized group is an organized opposition You can nerf whatever you want, but unless you have overwhelming numbers, you'll lose against a coordinated group.
I realize that's not a very fun answer and getting smacked every night by an organized group isn't fun but it's a large scale pvp mode, and organized groups come with that.
I suppose ZOS could help the situation by making more things for small scale players to do. Make resources more valuable, etc. Which I honestly would like to see.
I think one of the things that has been lost is that the folks who are complaining about ball groups forget that it is, in fact, OK to lose a fight. That's what is supposed to happen, actually. Instead we get people doubling down on either bad tactics that cause them to die repeatedly, swarm tactics which grind the server to a halt, or (usually) a mix of both.
The current proc free meta (meaning zerg limiting sets such as Vicious Death aren't currently functioning) has lead to such heavily stacked zergs, that even Gina Bruno admitted the performance was worse with this meta than before. Zergs aren't getting punished, causing worse lag than ever, and yet the complaints are still about ball groups.
Why? Because people don't like losing, even when they haven't taken the time to prepare or organize in an effective manner.
I don't see demands for hard mode Trials to be made easier being taken seriously for 12 randoms out of Craglorn who haven't bothered to prepare their group and composition ahead of time. Such demands shouldn't be taken seriously, nor should demands that 12, even 20, randoms from Cyrodiil be able to handle groups that have spend hundreds of hours practicing together, perfecting builds, etc.
I've seen and heard plenty of players complain when they're in the midst of their 5th or 6th death to the ball group. If they're having so little fun, they could have rezzed somewhere else and participated in a different fight on the map long ago. My sympathies evaporate when options to do something else, anything else, are ignored.
The return excuse is "We don't want to see the objective lost to our faction!" So what? Firstly, the map/score stopped mattering years ago. Secondly, how often is the ball group able to move fast enough to flip the second keep needed to open a scroll gate while they leave the first empty to do it? I know how long it takes as I've been on both sides of the issue enough to know the ball group rarely makes it to the scroll temple. Thirdly, objectives are meant to be won and lost in Cyrodiil. As much as you may want them to be, Glademist, Arrius, and Faregyl are not mighty, impregnable fortresses. Heck, every fort and keep in Cyrodiil is defensively compromised in some awful way specifically to make sure they can be taken because the Devs never wanted a static map.
It's not heal stacking causing the lag. I've seen enough GvGs played in both Imperial City and on servers others than Gray Host to know that its's not even the ball groups causing the lag. It's the stacked zergs that are so intent on not letting the ball group "win" that they create the conditions for themselves where they don't have any fun at all. It's players doubling down on bad behavior and then thinking it is someone else's fault, all the while the servers are just not up to the task they're being asked to perform.
Of course, at the end of the day, the REAL culprit is ZOS and their collection of unfulfilled promises that really cause the performance problems. The more we blame each other, the less we acknowledge their part in all this.Edited by Agrippa_Invisus on May 26, 2021 2:04PMAgrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
Once a General, now a Citizen
Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!5 -
ks888✭✭✭✭@Agrippa_Invisus very well statedDC NA - Norri - Khole RIP - [Mostly Outnumbered]** I have too many toons **RIP every alt I deleted - where am I? what year is it?0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[Quoted post has been removed.]
Please provide proof to the statement "and those players are a majority".
And of course your opinion is valid, but so are the opinions of players who want to play in organized groups.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on May 27, 2021 12:13AM3 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »[Quoted post has been removed.]
Please provide proof to the statement "and those players are a majority".
And of course your opinion is valid, but so are the opinions of players who want to play in organized groups.
While what I am about to suggest isn't definitive, common sense would indicate it is pretty valid. On any given day look at the number of players that are participating in ball groups, and look at the number of players who are not. There aren't that many ball groups even running these days, and many of them are only on 3 days a week or so. People not running in ball groups outnumber those running in them, I don't know, virtually all the time? If players that wanted to run in ball groups were the majority they would be fighting other ball groups the majority of the time since the majority of the players would be in ball groups.
The simple fact is that there are a lot of people that just want to play the game the way they want to play the game, not comped out in gear and skills to optimize a group that strictly follows the orders of crown to be successful. While I understand and get the fact that this may be fun for some people, the majority of people in Cyro would rather have more freedom in there gear and skill layout selection. When it takes 40, 50, 60, or more to kill 12 the math seems pretty simple.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on May 27, 2021 12:23AM5
This discussion has been closed.