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Ball Groups: A National Concern
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Mr_Gallows✭✭✭Massive regens, heal stacking and ultimate timing. It's just bad. Damage needs to be massive to compete with the regens and healing.
First get regens under control. Diminishing returns until a hard cap at 2k.
Then get heal stacking under control.
Finally balance damageEdited by Mr_Gallows on May 11, 2021 4:38AM1 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Mr_Gallows wrote: »Massive regens, heal stacking and ultimate timing. It's just bad. Damage needs to be massive to compete with the regens and healing.
First get regens under control. Diminishing returns until a hard cap at 2k.
Then get heal stacking under control.
Finally balance damage
That sounds fine. In my group aside from 1 or 2 players everyone's regen is below 2k. I support softcaps though, I think the old combat system in ESO was far more enjoyable (although there are likely way too many sets now in the game for it to be viable).@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
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Kordai✭✭✭Mr_Gallows wrote: »Massive regens, heal stacking and ultimate timing. It's just bad. Damage needs to be massive to compete with the regens and healing.
First get regens under control. Diminishing returns until a hard cap at 2k.
Then get heal stacking under control.
Finally balance damage
Agreed heal stacking has gotten way too out of hand. But that's obvious to everybody, and yet here we are another patch down.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭We should have national Chaosball teams like the OlympicsXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Valdek✭✭✭Why don't they create a separate server to the current alliance wars next round where they make a few small changes to make ball groups craptastic. Then we could see the impact on performance / whether the server attracts enough players. What do you think?
Changes could include things like...
- only having 1 version of each spell active at a time (e.g. 1 rapid regen per person max)
- splash damage (if more than 5 people are clumped together within 5 ft, single target damage hits them all)
- alternatively, they take increased damage if 5+ players clumped within 5 ft (would make people spread out and bring more realistic / tactical fighting)0 -
Alekero✭✭✭Ball groups is just some pvevp kids who always want to get ez stuff. They not in tactics and they r really useless (and some of em cant even 1x1) so thats not an ESO's problem. Almost every game when you have open pvp or rvr - you get those groups.
The best way to deal with em - avoid em. No AP and kills - they move. No AP and stuff on another place - they move to the next one etc etc. But if you want to know how to counter em...actually zerg em up. 24-30 expirenced ppl against those 12 kids and poof...resp.0 -
MeetraySoul ShrivenOh wow this is a long thread. I made it all the way to page eight before I skipped to the end. Clearly, ball groups are contentious! That said, the only real problem that I personally have with ball groups, is when they get into a keep that has been flipped and then proceed to run everybody up and down the keep until they rage quit.
I feel like I should have a choice on whether or not I want to fight a ball group. And I agree with the sentiment that if you don't want to fight a ball group don't fight them it's as simple as that. If they want to go and take a farm, so be it. They can have the farm. But when the ball group holds up dozens of players who are now trapped in a keep trying to keep the ball group from taking it once they leave, it slows down gameplay.
I contend, and maybe this is simply not possible which is why I haven't seen it mentioned, that we just impose a massive debuff on enemy players inside of a flipped keep. If the keep is flipped, and the doors are buttoned up the timer starts. At the end of 10 minutes, or whatever is deemed fair, the opposite team gets a massive debuff to whomever is inside the keep walls. It needs to be big. Large enough so that smaller groups can take out these ball groups without having to dedicate half of your war effort to dissolving a ball group inside of a keep that is keeping you from using transitus.
All arguments about lag aside, I can't imagine that ZOS intended for an enemy party of 10 to hold a keep for hours and hours from a dedicated group of 20 players after the keep has been flipped. You're then left with the options to either walk away and let a small group of enemies soldiers take down your factions transitus, or you devote entirely too many players trying to dissolve these 9 or 10 tightly coordinated people.
I can tell you from experience that it is no fun having 20 team members chasing a 10-person ball group up and down the inside of a keep that isn't even showing under attack anymore just to keep them from taking your transitus out and knocking out reinforcements to the front. A small group of people should not wield that kind of power in a keep that has already been flipped.
I anyway, just a little bit of input from a long-term ESO player. I don't know if ball groups affect lag or not, I'll leave that to the people who have studied it. But from the point of view of at least a small group of regular players Ball groups inside of a keep need to stop.5 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh wow this is a long thread. I made it all the way to page eight before I skipped to the end. Clearly, ball groups are contentious! That said, the only real problem that I personally have with ball groups, is when they get into a keep that has been flipped and then proceed to run everybody up and down the keep until they rage quit.
I feel like I should have a choice on whether or not I want to fight a ball group. And I agree with the sentiment that if you don't want to fight a ball group don't fight them it's as simple as that. If they want to go and take a farm, so be it. They can have the farm. But when the ball group holds up dozens of players who are now trapped in a keep trying to keep the ball group from taking it once they leave, it slows down gameplay.
I contend, and maybe this is simply not possible which is why I haven't seen it mentioned, that we just impose a massive debuff on enemy players inside of a flipped keep. If the keep is flipped, and the doors are buttoned up the timer starts. At the end of 10 minutes, or whatever is deemed fair, the opposite team gets a massive debuff to whomever is inside the keep walls. It needs to be big. Large enough so that smaller groups can take out these ball groups without having to dedicate half of your war effort to dissolving a ball group inside of a keep that is keeping you from using transitus.
All arguments about lag aside, I can't imagine that ZOS intended for an enemy party of 10 to hold a keep for hours and hours from a dedicated group of 20 players after the keep has been flipped. You're then left with the options to either walk away and let a small group of enemies soldiers take down your factions transitus, or you devote entirely too many players trying to dissolve these 9 or 10 tightly coordinated people.
I can tell you from experience that it is no fun having 20 team members chasing a 10-person ball group up and down the inside of a keep that isn't even showing under attack anymore just to keep them from taking your transitus out and knocking out reinforcements to the front. A small group of people should not wield that kind of power in a keep that has already been flipped.
I anyway, just a little bit of input from a long-term ESO player. I don't know if ball groups affect lag or not, I'll leave that to the people who have studied it. But from the point of view of at least a small group of regular players Ball groups inside of a keep need to stop.
It's not that it isn't possible to implement something like that, it's unnecessary. Eliminating "defeated" enemies from "captured" objectives is part of the game (as well as part of actual real world warfare). They already have a huge debuff; they are cut off and cannot receive reinforcement. If you don;t want to deal with them, then just port out and leave. The 30+ people chasing them on the top floor will (eventually) disperse them.4 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭At what point does running around the 3rd floor of a Keep go from just clowning around to griefing?5 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.2 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
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maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭But when the ball group holds up dozens of players who are now trapped in a keep trying to keep the ball group from taking it once they leave, it slows down gameplay.
All arguments about lag aside, I can't imagine that ZOS intended for an enemy party of 10 to hold a keep for hours and hours from a dedicated group of 20 players after the keep has been flipped. You're then left with the options to either walk away and let a small group of enemies soldiers take down your factions transitus, or you devote entirely too many players trying to dissolve these 9 or 10 tightly coordinated people.
I can tell you from experience that it is no fun having 20 team members chasing a 10-person ball group up and down the inside of a keep that isn't even showing under attack anymore just to keep them from taking your transitus out and knocking out reinforcements to the front. A small group of people should not wield that kind of power in a keep that has already been flipped.
I anyway, just a little bit of input from a long-term ESO player. I don't know if ball groups affect lag or not, I'll leave that to the people who have studied it. But from the point of view of at least a small group of regular players Ball groups inside of a keep need to stop.
As a former member of a group that used to do this, I admit I sound like a hypocrite. But to be honest, I didn't always enjoy it and I especially deplore this kind of behavior now. There may have been a time when larger populations with more active guild groups could step in and counter this behavior, but those days are long gone. The only ones enjoying this playstyle are the ball groups doing it. It is definitely a form of griefing in the current state of the game.
Players do have power over their own behavior. The best way to counter this behavior is to just leave those players in the keep and go elsewhere. If no one engages them, then they will get bored. But the fact that it kills pvp and discourages new players in an already dwindling population, it wouldn't hurt for the Devs to consider someway to help counter this behavior.
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
I do not know if it is the same, but when my guild group was part of taking a keep recently another group came in right after we captured the flags and started running around the top level of the keep (not wall). My group's leader called us together and we took them out. There were only six of us, about half the size of the group we encountered. I suppose a group of random players might have some trouble with this as they would not be organized but that would be expected in a group PvP situation.1 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
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No disrespect, but I think you missed the point. I have no problem with groups taking keeps. I have no problem with groups trying to hold onto a keep if it is assisting map play (for example, holding Glade so that others can get Warden for a possible scroll capture ). But groups who take keeps and then let them flip back so that they can "farm" pugs upstairs is not healthy for Cyrodiil in its current state.
As I said, I am 100% a hypocrite because I used to engage in this playstyle. And I know it can be fun to repeatedly wipe pug groups over and over. The whole take on 2 to 3 times our numbers thing. But even saying that, pugs never stood a chance against us. The only times we would usually wipe was when another guild group joined those pugs. People would complain to us. Even good players about how we were killing the population. And they were right.
I prefer map play and my new guild now. In general, when we engage the enemy there is a purpose behind it other than "farming." And it is much more satisfying, for me, at least.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 24, 2021 10:02AM0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
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No disrespect, but I think you missed the point. I have no problem with groups taking keeps. I have no problem with groups trying to hold onto a keep if it is assisting map play (for example, holding Glade so that others can get Warden for a possible scroll capture ). But groups who take keeps and then let them flip back so that they can "farm" pugs upstairs is not healthy for Cyrodiil in its current state.
As I said, I am 100% a hypocrite because I used to engage in this playstyle. And I know it can be fun to repeatedly wipe pug groups over and over. The whole take on 2 to 3 times our numbers thing. But even saying that, pugs never stood a chance against us. The only times we would usually wipe was when another guild group joined those pugs. People would complain to us. Even good players about how we were killing the population. And they were right.
I prefer map play and my new guild now. In general, when we engage the enemy there is a purpose behind it other than "farming." And it is much more satisfying, for me, at least.
I agree with this. But I don't agree that everyone should "just leave" so that these trolls can retake the keep with minimal effort.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 24, 2021 10:02AMRIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.0 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
I do not know if it is the same, but when my guild group was part of taking a keep recently another group came in right after we captured the flags and started running around the top level of the keep (not wall). My group's leader called us together and we took them out. There were only six of us, about half the size of the group we encountered. I suppose a group of random players might have some trouble with this as they would not be organized but that would be expected in a group PvP situation.
I'm talking about the groups that stack regen and purge so much they take no damage, then spend an hour just running around the 3rd floor. The same groups that like to call this PvP, it's not.1 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »This horse is beyond petrified.
I disagree......the suggestion to impose a de buff for groups inside a keep that is an enemy keep that's not flagged is a good one.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭At what point does running around the 3rd floor of a Keep go from just clowning around to griefing?
It is a 100% legitimate tactic to make the decision to abandon trying to capture a keep because of overwhelming opposition and adopt a mostly defensive posture that involves mobility and LOS, and there is no better place to do this in a keep than the 3rd floor. It is the same reason why outnumbered players run around towers. The same reason why a single player will run around a rock. It's not written in the terms of service that once engaged in such overwhelming odds that defeat and death is all but assured, the player must stand still, go AFK, and make that victory or kill as convenient and easy for the mob of attackers.
This doesn't mean people don't intentionally clown around on third floors, resource towers, or rocks. But asking ZOS to adjudicate the difference or make a judgement call (laughable when they have no full time PvP developer or when no game-master has set foot in Cyrodiil since 2014) is going to create twice as many problems as it will supposedly solve. If I got a group of 12 trying to capture a keep and all of a sudden 30 bad guys come into the keep, I'm going up to the third floor to take advantage of chokepoints and LOS. It's on the 30 to get good and kill us. The 30 don;t need any assistance from the rules or ZOS.5 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »This horse is beyond petrified.
I disagree......the suggestion to impose a de buff for groups inside a keep that is an enemy keep that's not flagged is a good one.
They already have this mechanic in place for scroll temples: 100k environmental damage. Wouldn't be hard to modify it to apply inside keeps. OTOH, some of the biggest defensive ticks I've ever gotten were from the dispersion of these troll groups.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.1 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »This horse is beyond petrified.
I disagree......the suggestion to impose a de buff for groups inside a keep that is an enemy keep that's not flagged is a good one.
They already have this mechanic in place for scroll temples: 100k environmental damage. Wouldn't be hard to modify it to apply inside keeps. OTOH, some of the biggest defensive ticks I've ever gotten were from the dispersion of these troll groups.
If you implemented instadeath inside keeps whenever it went unflagged would you also modify the rules for what constitutes a keep to unflag? Or would players be able to win every fight simply by repairing the doors whilst groups tried to flip the keep?
Additionally as would be expected from those who don't participate in groups there's a lot of misconceptions about why groups fight upstairs for a long time. Our goal whenever we are fighting on 3rd is 100% to flip the keep when we get the opportunity. Otherwise we are farming up a tick for nothing.Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on May 22, 2021 6:57PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Soul_Demon wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »This horse is beyond petrified.
I disagree......the suggestion to impose a de buff for groups inside a keep that is an enemy keep that's not flagged is a good one.
They already have this mechanic in place for scroll temples: 100k environmental damage. Wouldn't be hard to modify it to apply inside keeps. OTOH, some of the biggest defensive ticks I've ever gotten were from the dispersion of these troll groups.
If you implemented instadeath inside keeps whenever it went unflagged would you also modify the rules for what constitutes a keep to unflag? Or would players be able to win every fight simply by repairing the doors whilst groups tried to flip the keep?
I wouldn't implement instadeath. I just said ZOS already implemented it elsewhere on the map. But I do think a gradual penalty would motivate people to move along. Like a 2% per minute addition to Battle Spirit applied to enemy players inside an unflagged keep.
RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.0 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »This horse is beyond petrified.
I disagree......the suggestion to impose a de buff for groups inside a keep that is an enemy keep that's not flagged is a good one.
They already have this mechanic in place for scroll temples: 100k environmental damage. Wouldn't be hard to modify it to apply inside keeps. OTOH, some of the biggest defensive ticks I've ever gotten were from the dispersion of these troll groups.
Could really use something as simple as 30% heal reductions for enemies inside an unflagged keep for the first 10 min, and beyond it that would bump up to say 50%. Something like this could make it less likely groups do this as often as they do now. This could impact the solo and small groups who stay stealthed out inside keeps ganking for hours and impact the ball groups who try to farm while using upper tier of keeps.1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »This horse is beyond petrified.
I disagree......the suggestion to impose a de buff for groups inside a keep that is an enemy keep that's not flagged is a good one.
That is not what I was referring to, I was referring to the thread topic.
Better suggestion is to not rush off after taking a keep and do a sweep to remove hidden enemies like the experienced groups do.1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love how far this discussion has gone and I've caught up to all the comments.
Here's what I'll say. People are still making the "just leave them alone" defense. That's just a completely silly thing to say. If you abandon a keep that you own with a ball group inside they will own it 5 minutes later.
If you continue to ignore them, they'll take your next keep.
If you continue to ignore them, they'll take another.
They won't get bored. And even if they do decide to stop hitting home keeps, they'll wait to see where the right is and go there to back end you.
The ONLY tactic that works against ball groups is to punch them in the face until they go after the other alliance or jump to another campaign.
So for me, going back to my first post, is how an organized non ball group can effectively take on a 12 man ball group. The answer currently is to overwhelm them with numbers and CCs.
But what if you're in BR and there aren't 24 people available to run them out?
The reality is nothing is going to stop people from balling up, nor should it. It's a legitimate playstyle in the current system. Does it cause lag? Yes but that isn't their fault.
The problem I have is the lack of options in taking them on. They use non destructible environments to avoid attacks. They spam purge and heals like they're doing lines of coke.
I believe a 12 man organized group needs to be able to hang with a 12 man ball group. My answer continues to be a siege what attacks damage for the number of enemies hit. This also would be useful against zergs. It would force both to abandon many of their most annoying tactics to survive.
I also like the idea mentioned above of a keep imparting a small debuff to enemies inside for a short duration after flipping. Even a minute or two would make a hostile group think twice about running the walls.I drink and I stream things.1 -
Pattceht✭✭✭
Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.1 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, so when those 3rd floor goofs, don't take the Keep, only run around, it's definitely griefing. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lol nope, playing pvp in a pvp server is not griefing. I think people have just gotten so used to taking empty keeps and avoiding pvp that when they finally encounter it they don’t know what to do and call it griefing or ask for nerfs.
Guess you play in a ball, problem is you cant play the objective until everyone leaves but you Los for a long time. If this entertains you idgaf, I've done it a few time and in a full ball I would honestly prefer to go toss off but ea h to their ow, some people require less stimulus. If you're not paying the objective (the keep) you should lose it. Running around is not playing the objective.
Nope I play solo and enjoy the challenge of fighting a ball group and instead of asking for nerfs or buffs I use the many counters that are already available to me.
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This discussion has been closed.