Ball Groups: A National Concern

CooloutAC · April 2021

BardInSolitude wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Personally I don't mind a bit of protective posting for a play-style you are committed to, but with ball-groups this tendency to "swarm" threads with protective posts claiming others simply misunderstand them and are being overly critical, even suggesting the other players don't understand how the game works....is quite tiresome at this point. Regardless of how you see yourselves, and we have established that is on a pretty high pedestal, the reality of a game losing players to the degree we see now calls for quite a bit more honesty about what could be something ZOS might fix that would improve the gaming experience of the vast majority of players they do have left in PvP. They do NOT need to focus on yet again inadvertently buffing said play-styles due to the forum 'swarm' and thread derails to protect it. No one is listing ONE group out of them all or even using groups names at this point----its more of a discussion from players who love the game and want to get focus where it will do the most good and possibly enhance what we do have left of a great game. Don't read into it what isn't there.

If you do not love organised Cyrodiil combat, such as that practiced by ball groups, you do not love Cyrodiil; you just love a version of Cyrodiil that exists in your head but isn't the real thing. On what arguments do you base your request for mechanics to combat ball groups? I have already made a case as to why it makes sense from for organised units to be the primary mode of efficient combat in Cyrodiil (i.e. that they parallel real war tactics), but I have thus not seen any counterargument other than "it's not fun for us". You know what's not fun? Effortlessly steamrolling through an unorganised group. I wish that more people formed organised groups because most of us find no pleasure in beating zerglings.

Lastly, in what way is lag related to ball groups? Do you think I enjoy the fact that it takes me 2-3s to get my Negate down when fighting other ball groups? Do you think we never get perma-CCed even when we've already used our Immovable potions? All the problems you are describing are problems that ball groups are facing, too, and would like to see solved. Zenimax's practices is our common problem, yet you choose to turn against other players playing the game fair and square.

So, no, I'm not trying to "defend" ball groups. I'm just trying to show you and so many other people sharing similar views that you are letting ZOS divide and conquer the playerbase. There's nothing you can do that will stop us from using our collective wits and skills to prevail against players that refuse to use group tactics, but if ZOS makes their own game playable maybe we can all finally get a taste of what Cyrodiil-as-intended truly is.

You say you are out to help your faction and not just farm ap, and that you find no pleasure in steamrolling zerglings. But what server, faction and campaign do you play on? Because imo, you are not the ballgroups that everyone is referring to and are very rare and must be a minority. As one player put it you are just an organized zerg and a ballgroup is derogatory label by many in this community to describe those who do the exact opposite. aThose Who do enjoy steam rolling zerglings and doing nothing but trying to farm kills caring nothing about their faction score. It really reminds of the DM and Duel players who go in bg's and ignore the other gamemodes as if it somehow beneath them. When really it is an excuse for the fact they have no strategy and just want ot ragequit players in their overpowered builds.

I do agree that lag is not the ballgroups fault, that is on ZOS.

Joy_Division · April 2021

I lost track of what the difference is between a ball group, an organized group, a zerg, and a faction stack. Can someone remind me please?

Greasytengu · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

I lost track of what the difference is between a ball group, an organized group, a zerg, and a faction stack. Can someone remind me please?

I cant speak for anyone else, but my own personal definitions would be:

Zerg: A large gathering (24+) of random players who may or may not be in a group. Often formed organically when many solo players and groups show up to the same keep because of a zone call out. Typically fizzle out after a keep take or two.

Faction Stack: A very large zerg, composed of around 50% or more of the alliance's population. Oftentimes these are directed by someone in zone chat who keeps the ball rolling, usually towards a specific objective (emping/de-emping/scrolls). These tend to last longer than plain old zergs but fizzle out when they either achieve their objective or realize that the third faction is eating up their backline because they took most of the players with them.

Organized group: A group of 12-24 players with a leader/leaders in voice comms and a specific role and class composition. Often these are guild groups, but some may pull from zone chat.

Ball group: An Organized group with an extreme focus on movement and timing. The bulk of a ball group's damage comes from overlapping AOEs like proxy and Destro ults. These are almost exclusively guild groups only, though some may allow outside players to guest with them.

Sandman929 · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

I lost track of what the difference is between a ball group, an organized group, a zerg, and a faction stack. Can someone remind me please?

Zerg: A bunch of ungrouped players who happen to be in the same area.

Faction Stack: A bunch more ungrouped players who happen to be in the same area.

Organized group: A group (12 or less) fighting together with coordinated movement

Ball Group: An organized group that's optimized

TequilaFire · April 2021

You forgot forum PvP players.
I won't give a definition.

Ranger209 · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

I lost track of what the difference is between a ball group, an organized group, a zerg, and a faction stack. Can someone remind me please?

LOL so many different takes, and personal definitions of each. What happens when organized ball groups faction stack with each other to zerg down another alliance?

Here is my take.

Faction stack - An obscenely large number of players fighting in a limited area from one faction that may be composed of ball groups, organized groups, small scale groups, unorganized groups, or ungrouped players. A faction stack can be composed of various types of zergs, as well as individuals.

Zerg - A wide ranging number of players that run together in order for the sum of them to be greater than their individual parts. These can be organized, or disorganized, balled on crown, or ranging more freely. With our ability to use out of group heals and buffs they too can be composed of individuals who gain strength from other individuals and groups near them. They can gain their multiplicative strength from numbers, from organization, or both.

Unorganized group - A group of players that run together without voice comms and no real direction other than an objective to fight over such as a keep or resource. They utilize the group UI feature and thus know where they are in relation to their other group members, but really all of them are freelance fighting together as a group with no real cohesion over a particular point of interest.

Organized group - A group running voice comms that enables the group members to coordinate with one another more fluidly in real time. They may be ball groups, or may be allowed to range more freely performing various tasks beyond pure combat that aid the group in defeating opponents. Both types of groups can be organized as a means to different ends. The individuals of these groups may or may not have distinct roles, and may or may not have comped layouts for those roles.

Ball groups - A type of zerg that is organized, gear comped, and have very distinct roles, that focus on staying as tightly knit to crown as possible except in short lived situations when that is detrimental to the group. They coordinate in comms, but also coordinate on levels of gear selection, and ability usage with timed team burst and retreat tactics.

Looking at how you listed the 4 entities in your tongue in cheek question I would say that each entity listed is a subset of the one that follows.

But that's just my definition. Ask 10 other people and you can have 11 different definitions. Happy to have amused you

DrSlaughtr · April 2021

Most people can spot a ball group a mile away because they don't operate like other groups, but unless they have run in ball groups they probably can't give a technically correct definition. Either way, it doesn't really matter. Do they seek to cause lag? No. Does it benefit them more than hurt? Yes. Because they aren't trying to go through both bars of a rotation, getting hung up on every fire of a skill or bar swap. They have a small set of skills which are spammed in quick order. When you only have to worry about hitting 2-3 skills over and over, lag becomes less of an issue. Meanwhile if a ball group rolls into town, my snipes and poison injections immediately are delayed at best.

But that's not the ball group's fault. It's a server side problem that has no solution currently. So ultimately it doesn't matter for this discussion, because even if there was zero lag there would still be an imbalance, IMO.

Jaraal · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

I lost track of what the difference is between a ball group, an organized group, a zerg, and a faction stack. Can someone remind me please?

I think your lack of the /s tag has backfired on you.

Lord_Bashu · April 2021

I am deeply insulted and offended by all of your caustic rhetoric.

First “What Nation” There is no nation, this is a game, people play from all over the world. So what Nation are you talking about? There is no National Concern.. This is just flat out lie.

Second, a Zerg is defined very well here in this link and in other locations on the internet. I.e. Players with no skill, and little or no coordination. “Anybody” who calls an Organized group a zerg, is nothing but an ill informed noobie or is trying to be offensive with malice and forethought.

https://techopedia.com/definition/27053/zerg#:~:text=What%20Does%20Zerg%20Mean%3F%20Zerg%20is%20a%20slang,but%20it%20also%20applies%20to%20multiplayer%20first-person%20shooters.

[snip] The term Ball Group has been coined to put down and offend folks who run in an Organized group. To put them into a negative light so that they will feel shamed and shunned. This should be in light of ZoS tos against such things be removed from our vernacular.

Third, you state that these groups have simplified skills, I can tell you this is just not true. Bar Swapping and using the wide range of skills is major part of the success of any organized group. Running in highly organized groups is very complex and takes a high degree of skill.

Fourth, Everyone has the right to play the game the way they want, who are you…. Who are you… to say how somebody else should play this game? Last and most egregious is your constant desire to place blame on those who are just having fun and playing the game. You don’t have to like it, and you don’t have to fight them, that is your choice. Period!!!

As to the technical issue’s being raised, place the blame where it should be placed. Not on the player having fun doing their thing, but on the Game Designers and Managers of this game. They are the ones solely responsible for the technical issues you state. You are insulting folks, and from moral standpoint its about as low as you can go without being a lawyer, from a technical standpoint its blaming the wrong people for your own conceptions of what is failing you in this game. You should be ashamed. Lag is a big issue to everyone.

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

Crash427 · April 2021

So now we've had posts saying ballgroups bar swap excessively and posts saying they don't have to bar swap. Looks like another productive thread.

And lag may help the bad ballgroups stay alive a little longer but the good ballgroups are twice as deadly when the game works.

Lag is the single biggest killer of ballgroups, and the guilds that ran them.

LostToTheSea · April 2021

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say that we see Aleswell is UA by the entirety of the EP faction (there's no fight anywhere between AD and EP) We might choose to hit Chal or Arrius to draw EP faction players away from that battle to lessen the lag on the server.

You might, many groups do not. Because of the hopeless defensive advantage a ball group has over the rest of Cyrodiil, more and more ball groups are avoided and that pushes those groups to the frontline looking for a fight, same as the zerg.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

your second point regarding

Sandman929 wrote: »

You say all players have to deal with lag, and that's true, but you say it as though all players are experiencing lag at the same time in the same way, which is disingenuous to me. As I've said, I've had fights that I thought were very good fights with low lag and successful kills against greater numbers, but when I see those fights from the POV of solo players or small groups within the zerg I see a completely different experience as they get killed by the lag that I didn't experience during the fight.

You can go back to my post history where I've explained why players not in groups generally experience more lag than those in groups.. player loading and skill animations.. (i'm fairly sure its been on posts we have both commented on). I'm not denying this. I also don't think that's a problem that should be blamed on the groups involved as the only fix to it is to disband.

It isn't to be blamed on groups, aside from the blame of knowingly taking advantage of that lag. I don't see how that is different than taking advantage of, and defending the use of any exploit. If you acknowledge that the ungrouped players are at a disadvantage because they are dealing with more lag the the ballgroup, how is this a fair fight? How is this good gameplay? How can I possibly claim that we outfought greater numbers when those greater numbers are dying because they are crippled by lag?
I've said before that when a good ball group dies, it's usually due to bad luck/lag. And we complain about it, same as everyone else, that lag killed us, but refuse to admit that we kill thanks to lag. We lag the zerg until the zerg lags us...what a fun and incredible PvP experience.

I do think there is much that can be done to bring better balance, and I think it starts with bringing organized groups down several notches, defensively via HoT stacking and group purging.

Just make Sandman a dev already.

LostToTheSea · May 2021

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

There has been very little changed in the past few years. Sure Springs was replaced by Radiating, purge cost changed...rapids changed, but nothing about heal stacking and group purging has been touched, just the names of the skills have changed.

There have actually been huge changes to how groups purge and heal. Heal stacking has been a core combat mechanic in ESO since launch so ofc it hasn't changed. It's like saying they should remove weaving.

Saying stacking an absurd amount of RR on yourself/your group is the same as weaving should just be an /endthread. It is a clear crutch and overperformant, while being lag inducing. This is not a point of contention. You don't even need to look at data to know that this hard carry is inducing an insane amount of calcs on the server.

Remove RR layering, so we can go on to talking about something that is less obviously in need of change.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

. Do they seek to cause lag? No. Does it benefit them more than hurt? Yes. Because they aren't trying to go through both bars of a rotation, getting hung up on every fire of a skill or bar swap. They have a small set of skills which are spammed in quick order. When you only have to worry about hitting 2-3 skills over and over, lag becomes less of an issue..

This is completely untrue. Lag and lag related bugs are the biggest issue that groups face currently in game. Additionally anyone who considers that players in groups only hit 2-3 skills either hasn't played in a good group or was assigned a very simplistic role for reasons one can only assume. Sure there are spamable skills as there are in any ESO build (there's only 10 buttons after all) but keeping up buffs, skills rotation and selection based on scenario are basically fundamental to high end groups.

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Saying stacking an absurd amount of RR on yourself/your group is the same as weaving should just be an /endthread. It is a clear crutch and overperformant, while being lag inducing. This is not a point of contention. You don't even need to look at data to know that this hard carry is inducing an insane amount of calcs on the server.

Remove RR layering, so we can go on to talking about something that is less obviously in need of change.

Heal stacking has been a basic part of ESO combat since launch. It's just a simple fact. I'm all for making healing group only again if you feel that there are too many calculations on the server though

Additionally removal of heal stacking would need to then prompt a similar removal of damage stacking and debuff stacking which would hugely buff groups over pugs. If you are concerned about imbalance in the current system this suggestion is really harmful to your own position.

LostToTheSea · May 2021

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

. Do they seek to cause lag? No. Does it benefit them more than hurt? Yes. Because they aren't trying to go through both bars of a rotation, getting hung up on every fire of a skill or bar swap. They have a small set of skills which are spammed in quick order. When you only have to worry about hitting 2-3 skills over and over, lag becomes less of an issue..

This is completely untrue. Lag and lag related bugs are the biggest issue that groups face currently in game. Additionally anyone who considers that players in groups only hit 2-3 skills either hasn't played in a good group or was assigned a very simplistic role for reasons one can only assume. Sure there are spamable skills as there are in any ESO build (there's only 10 buttons after all) but keeping up buffs, skills rotation and selection based on scenario are basically fundamental to high end groups.

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Saying stacking an absurd amount of RR on yourself/your group is the same as weaving should just be an /endthread. It is a clear crutch and overperformant, while being lag inducing. This is not a point of contention. You don't even need to look at data to know that this hard carry is inducing an insane amount of calcs on the server.

Remove RR layering, so we can go on to talking about something that is less obviously in need of change.

Heal stacking has been a basic part of ESO combat since launch. It's just a simple fact. I'm all for making healing group only again if you feel that there are too many calculations on the server though

Additionally removal of heal stacking would need to then prompt a similar removal of damage stacking and debuff stacking which would hugely buff groups over pugs. If you are concerned about imbalance in the current system this suggestion is really harmful to your own position.

For one, I lead a guild in the field that many consider a ballgroup. I'm in favor of a gradual approach, but not the defensive kneejerk reaction of claiming I am seeking to remove heal stacking altogether. Spamming RR layering may have a much larger impact than AOE vigor, for instance (bet it does). As for imbalance, this was already covered by what Sandman said in referral to constant vs inconstant. The point of my suggestion is to bring back skill into the game.. or at least some of it. Defending Day 1 oversights in mechanics does not help improve the game. It stagnates us. RR layering needs to go, purge needs to be looked at, fear needs to be looked at, etc. Declaring wide sweeping generalizations to every poster in these forums (in ever single thread about ballgroups) defeats the purpose of the conversations.

People should not have to login to a forum account they hardly ever use, to make sure veterans of the game stay on the valued points of suggestion made by long-time players. The game mechanics need to change, but not all of them by any means. RR layering has had enough conversation put forth over the years. Derailing the point with things such as " I'm all for making healing group only again if you feel that there are too many calculations on the server though." Spare us.

Joy_Division · May 2021

Jaraal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I lost track of what the difference is between a ball group, an organized group, a zerg, and a faction stack. Can someone remind me please?

I think your lack of the /s tag has backfired on you.

The thing is I legit got confused like around page 5 in this thread. I can't keep track all of the pejorative terms sometimes. It all runs together. Basically, whatever killed me = ZOS needs to nerf. Whatever I can't kill = ZOS needs to remove.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 2021

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

. Do they seek to cause lag? No. Does it benefit them more than hurt? Yes. Because they aren't trying to go through both bars of a rotation, getting hung up on every fire of a skill or bar swap. They have a small set of skills which are spammed in quick order. When you only have to worry about hitting 2-3 skills over and over, lag becomes less of an issue..

This is completely untrue. Lag and lag related bugs are the biggest issue that groups face currently in game. Additionally anyone who considers that players in groups only hit 2-3 skills either hasn't played in a good group or was assigned a very simplistic role for reasons one can only assume. Sure there are spamable skills as there are in any ESO build (there's only 10 buttons after all) but keeping up buffs, skills rotation and selection based on scenario are basically fundamental to high end groups.

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Saying stacking an absurd amount of RR on yourself/your group is the same as weaving should just be an /endthread. It is a clear crutch and overperformant, while being lag inducing. This is not a point of contention. You don't even need to look at data to know that this hard carry is inducing an insane amount of calcs on the server.

Remove RR layering, so we can go on to talking about something that is less obviously in need of change.

Heal stacking has been a basic part of ESO combat since launch. It's just a simple fact. I'm all for making healing group only again if you feel that there are too many calculations on the server though

Additionally removal of heal stacking would need to then prompt a similar removal of damage stacking and debuff stacking which would hugely buff groups over pugs. If you are concerned about imbalance in the current system this suggestion is really harmful to your own position.

For one, I lead a guild in the field that many consider a ballgroup. I'm in favor of a gradual approach, but not the defensive kneejerk reaction of claiming I am seeking to remove heal stacking altogether. Spamming RR layering may have a much larger impact than AOE vigor, for instance (bet it does). As for imbalance, this was already covered by what Sandman said in referral to constant vs inconstant. The point of my suggestion is to bring back skill into the game.. or at least some of it. Defending Day 1 oversights in mechanics does not help improve the game. It stagnates us. RR layering needs to go, purge needs to be looked at, fear needs to be looked at, etc. Declaring wide sweeping generalizations to every poster in these forums (in ever single thread about ballgroups) defeats the purpose of the conversations.

Except that they aren't generalisations, they are facts. You mentioned that you don't consider weaving to be the same as healing stacking. They have both been in the game since launch, one is a designed combat mechanic the other was a bug which is now considered a longstanding feature.
They both make ESO combat enjoyable and diverse.

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

LostToTheSea · May 2021

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

Joy_Division · May 2021

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

We've been at this for 7 years and never got anywhere.

Probably because to have an "open-minded" conversation requires all parties to engage in such an effort? If we were to take this post as a starting point, people who run in organized groups are already dealing with accusations of abuse, intentionally causing lag, and using euphemisms to cover up sinister motives. Hard pass.

LostToTheSea · May 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

We've been at this for 7 years and never got anywhere.

Probably because to have an "open-minded" conversation requires all parties to engage in such an effort? If we were to take this post as a starting point, people who run in organized groups are already dealing with accusations of abuse, intentionally causing lag, and using euphemisms to cover up sinister motives. Hard pass.

Intentional is not the same as knowingly formatting in a way that makes inducing such lag inevitable. There is a point where intent no longer matters if you are aware. There are some guilds who will play top meta or nothing, even at the cost of performance and their own joy in their victories.

As for the all parties issue, couldn't agree more. That said, I hold on to a sliver of hope this conversation will be taken a shred serious (even with largely or entirely the same devs) under Microsoft. LIkely delusional, but one could hope that one of the executive board sees the easy ROI to be gained by near effortless fixes to PVP. That said, I don't expect this game will ever live up nearly to what its potential is.

PS: I'll note that while it may sound like I'm attacking other GMs and long-time players. There's no better people to give open input about what is actively being used by 'max optimized' comps that chokes servers heavily vs zergs (not to say the server wasn't choking already btw). If that's what max optimization for a group is, then it needs to be scaled back or reworked entirely. I don't see why knowingly/unknowingly doing these things matters when the conversation is at hand. People can argue back and forth in such a fashion on their own time. What matters is a conversation being made without such defensiveness. We just have to present what we know and go from there, as we have been. The devs can entertain a conversation when the guard changes or not, but if the veterans can't present a proper face as a collective on key issues.. then these conversation will continue to flounder as they have.

TBois · May 2021

Implying nothing about the intent of others who use certain skills or mechanics, I'm all for getting rid of heal stacking as a way to increase the effectiveness of other formations besides balling up on crown. In my opinion the group meta is quite stale, but, in order for that to work well within the systems we have, I believe smart healing would need to go away in favor of targeted heals. Smart healing going away would affect pve so much that I don't think this will ever be addressed. I do think it should be explored though, just as zos have been exploring weaving mechanics, but zos should be ready to reverse course if a line of exploration is met with widespread negative feedback.

Ultimately all these issues are for zos to sort out, and these open discussions should be free of ill will and malice toward other players and towards zos.

CrustyCroco · May 2021

Yesterday there was a 4v4 event on the usually lowest populated Campaign Blackreach on the EU server.
RadReg and echoing vigor stacking weren't allowed.
After a while a lot of spectators gathered up, but for the most part people were just standing around, maybe using some skills or buffs here and there. Overall not coming close to what happens in big fights at all.

Guess what, even without a fight going on people were crashing, having issues to log back in and having some delayed break frees.
And in the end, when the "free for all" started (all groups and spectators fighting for fun), the lag increased a lot, breaking free and using skills heavily delayed (reminder: RadReg and echoing vigor weren't allowed).

But yea, for sure it's the "ballgroups" being the reason for the performance issues and the root of all evil.

Joy_Division · May 2021

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

We've been at this for 7 years and never got anywhere.

Probably because to have an "open-minded" conversation requires all parties to engage in such an effort? If we were to take this post as a starting point, people who run in organized groups are already dealing with accusations of abuse, intentionally causing lag, and using euphemisms to cover up sinister motives. Hard pass.

Intentional is not the same as knowingly formatting in a way that makes inducing such lag inevitable. There is a point where intent no longer matters if you are aware. There are some guilds who will play top meta or nothing, even at the cost of performance and their own joy in their victories.

As for the all parties issue, couldn't agree more. That said, I hold on to a sliver of hope this conversation will be taken a shred serious (even with largely or entirely the same devs) under Microsoft. LIkely delusional, but one could hope that one of the executive board sees the easy ROI to be gained by near effortless fixes to PVP. That said, I don't expect this game will ever live up nearly to what its potential is.

PS: I'll note that while it may sound like I'm attacking other GMs and long-time players. There's no better people to give open input about what is actively being used by 'max optimized' comps that chokes servers heavily vs zergs (not to say the server wasn't choking already btw). If that's what max optimization for a group is, then it needs to be scaled back or reworked entirely. I don't see why knowingly/unknowingly doing these things matters when the conversation is at hand. People can argue back and forth in such a fashion on their own time. What matters is a conversation being made without such defensiveness. We just have to present what we know and go from there, as we have been. The devs can entertain a conversation when the guard changes or not, but if the veterans can't present a proper face as a collective on key issues.. then these conversation will continue to flounder as they have.

See, you'll just double down and want this open discussion to be composed of just one side confessing their sins. They have sucked the joys of playing for those poor ungrouped solo stam sorc who willingly run the unfathomable darkness set they know darn well is bugged, am I right?

It matters because people have emotions and don;t like to be blamed for problems their level of responsibility is so far under the level of reasonable culpability, especially by people who engage in the very same activities of maximizing their builds. It matters because it gives credence to conspiracy theories that turn ordinary participants and customers into malicious sinister miscreants who violate the Terms of Service. It matters because most people respond negatively to hypocrisy and demands for, "Physician heal thyself!" In short, it matters because it precludes that very open conversation you want to have in the first place.

LostToTheSea · May 2021

CrustyCroco wrote: »

Yesterday there was a 4v4 event on the usually lowest populated Campaign Blackreach on the EU server.
RadReg and echoing vigor stacking weren't allowed.
After a while a lot of spectators gathered up, but for the most part people were just standing around, maybe using some skills or buffs here and there. Overall not coming close to what happens in big fights at all.

Guess what, even without a fight going on people were crashing, having issues to log back in and having some delayed break frees.
And in the end, when the "free for all" started (all groups and spectators fighting for fun), the lag increased a lot, breaking free and using skills heavily delayed (reminder: RadReg and echoing vigor weren't allowed).

But yea, for sure it's the "ballgroups" being the reason for the performance issues and the root of all evil.

Nobody is claiming that reworking/removing RR/echoing vigor would fix lag.

LostToTheSea · May 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

We've been at this for 7 years and never got anywhere.

Probably because to have an "open-minded" conversation requires all parties to engage in such an effort? If we were to take this post as a starting point, people who run in organized groups are already dealing with accusations of abuse, intentionally causing lag, and using euphemisms to cover up sinister motives. Hard pass.

Intentional is not the same as knowingly formatting in a way that makes inducing such lag inevitable. There is a point where intent no longer matters if you are aware. There are some guilds who will play top meta or nothing, even at the cost of performance and their own joy in their victories.

As for the all parties issue, couldn't agree more. That said, I hold on to a sliver of hope this conversation will be taken a shred serious (even with largely or entirely the same devs) under Microsoft. LIkely delusional, but one could hope that one of the executive board sees the easy ROI to be gained by near effortless fixes to PVP. That said, I don't expect this game will ever live up nearly to what its potential is.

PS: I'll note that while it may sound like I'm attacking other GMs and long-time players. There's no better people to give open input about what is actively being used by 'max optimized' comps that chokes servers heavily vs zergs (not to say the server wasn't choking already btw). If that's what max optimization for a group is, then it needs to be scaled back or reworked entirely. I don't see why knowingly/unknowingly doing these things matters when the conversation is at hand. People can argue back and forth in such a fashion on their own time. What matters is a conversation being made without such defensiveness. We just have to present what we know and go from there, as we have been. The devs can entertain a conversation when the guard changes or not, but if the veterans can't present a proper face as a collective on key issues.. then these conversation will continue to flounder as they have.

See, you'll just double down and want this open discussion to be composed of just one side confessing their sins. They have sucked the joys of playing for those poor ungrouped solo stam sorc who willingly run the unfathomable darkness set they know darn well is bugged, am I right?

It matters because people have emotions and don;t like to be blamed for problems their level of responsibility is so far under the level of reasonable culpability, especially by people who engage in the very same activities of maximizing their builds. It matters because it gives credence to conspiracy theories that turn ordinary participants and customers into malicious sinister miscreants who violate the Terms of Service. It matters because most people respond negatively to hypocrisy and demands for, "Physician heal thyself!" In short, it matters because it precludes that very open conversation you want to have in the first place.

The point of the conversation is for the betterment of the game. Whether the points of contention are even considered or looked at by the devs. If people want to engage in such theories and talk outside the forums, then that's their choice. I'm not disagreeing the premise of the conversation itself matters, but there has to be a certain level of openness of the known/likely problematic points of mechanics/skills/etc. (especially in fully optimized format AND from the flip side for how the zergs operate)

CrustyCroco · May 2021

LostToTheSea wrote: »

CrustyCroco wrote: »

Yesterday there was a 4v4 event on the usually lowest populated Campaign Blackreach on the EU server.
RadReg and echoing vigor stacking weren't allowed.
After a while a lot of spectators gathered up, but for the most part people were just standing around, maybe using some skills or buffs here and there. Overall not coming close to what happens in big fights at all.

Guess what, even without a fight going on people were crashing, having issues to log back in and having some delayed break frees.
And in the end, when the "free for all" started (all groups and spectators fighting for fun), the lag increased a lot, breaking free and using skills heavily delayed (reminder: RadReg and echoing vigor weren't allowed).

But yea, for sure it's the "ballgroups" being the reason for the performance issues and the root of all evil.

Nobody is claiming that reworking/removing RR/echoing vigor would fix lag.

A lot of people are saying, that "ballgroups" are causing the lag with those and other skills tho. Whereas i'm convinced, that it's to a bigger part just about the amount of people (especially if 3 way fight + npcs) in an area, that is causing performance issues over the individual playstyle.

TequilaFire · May 2021

I think the horse is not only dead it has fossilized.

Soul_Demon · May 2021

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets say I'm duoing with another magblade. We're likely to both have Rapid Regen on because it's one of the best solo heals for mag chars. Yet you're telling me when we are outnumbered I shouldn't be able to apply my heal to him because he has his own on. So you basically want to stop people working as a team together?

Depends on what we're talking about, but as for RR? No, I don't think it's wise to leave a smart-heal based/layerable/overspammed/abused skill as a main core of 'optimized group play' or whatever you call knowingly formatting to intentionally/unintentionally induce lag on a server vs zergs. (vs doing what a real pvp guild should do and do anything possible to retain skill in their game. AKA not knowingly inducing lag via formatting.) It's been long established the issue with smart heals, aoe scan radius checks, layering said heals in a guild vs zerg or other such scenarios.

In your example, the magNB would have RR slotted as their self-heal (like a stam user has individual vigor) and the duo magNB would have their own "best solo heals in the game". If they wanted to build to heal one another as a duo, then they would use one of the many less abusable smart or non-smart heal options. ****(this is only one of the options that is considerable here btw.)****

There is a point of such a conversation and it's to provide the devs with long-time veteran insight on key pain point issues. You can't just point at streak rollback or other various U25 desync issues and say, "that's it!". There's a lot that needs to be broken down and dissected with an open-mind from the devs/community. Or PVP performance will likely never improve if the community is too stubborn to entertain such a discussion in proper and present it clearly to the devs.

I don't want people to stop playing as a team together. I want people to openly acknowledge certain skills/mechanics in particular are being so abused that it removes the purpose of splitting up zergs in the name of 'good fights' or 'better performance'. There is a point to where this becomes a hard net loss for the entire server and RR/Purge are clear pain points in this regard. As for other skills, people should and could talk through them generally or individually.

We've been at this for 7 years and never got anywhere.

Probably because to have an "open-minded" conversation requires all parties to engage in such an effort? If we were to take this post as a starting point, people who run in organized groups are already dealing with accusations of abuse, intentionally causing lag, and using euphemisms to cover up sinister motives. Hard pass.

Intentional is not the same as knowingly formatting in a way that makes inducing such lag inevitable. There is a point where intent no longer matters if you are aware. There are some guilds who will play top meta or nothing, even at the cost of performance and their own joy in their victories.

As for the all parties issue, couldn't agree more. That said, I hold on to a sliver of hope this conversation will be taken a shred serious (even with largely or entirely the same devs) under Microsoft. LIkely delusional, but one could hope that one of the executive board sees the easy ROI to be gained by near effortless fixes to PVP. That said, I don't expect this game will ever live up nearly to what its potential is.

PS: I'll note that while it may sound like I'm attacking other GMs and long-time players. There's no better people to give open input about what is actively being used by 'max optimized' comps that chokes servers heavily vs zergs (not to say the server wasn't choking already btw). If that's what max optimization for a group is, then it needs to be scaled back or reworked entirely. I don't see why knowingly/unknowingly doing these things matters when the conversation is at hand. People can argue back and forth in such a fashion on their own time. What matters is a conversation being made without such defensiveness. We just have to present what we know and go from there, as we have been. The devs can entertain a conversation when the guard changes or not, but if the veterans can't present a proper face as a collective on key issues.. then these conversation will continue to flounder as they have.

You are not alone in the hope this can be spoken about without the too common reflexive 'swarm' to protect something players view as a right to use rather than a bad mechanic likely responsible for deterioration in enjoyment for others. After all its pretty easy to dismiss as it always has been with simple stalling tactic or baiting or otherwise getting thread closed to silence those who would discuss openly these things.....just a few well placed "what is the topic", "you accuse xxxxx" or "what was the definition" has consistently worked in the past to keep from getting to the heart of the issues in PvP where play-styles are threatened.

It takes a pretty comfortable individual to talk about something they are using as consistently as this and be confident enough in their skill level to not resort to either falsely claiming others are vilifying them or pretending to not follow thread closely enough to know what the point of it all is. The point is to improve the game and experience for the majority of the players, not to upset and draw the ire of those who have used this heal stacking, cc flooding during lag as mainstay in play. There will always be posters who throw up the smokescreen when topics they are uncomfortable with come up---but this one seems to draw the most persistent ones to defend it to the death in the forum over the years and one that seems to threaten many more than others evidenced by the dismissive and combative posting rather than let the subject be examined in detailed way.

Greasytengu · May 2021

CrustyCroco wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

CrustyCroco wrote: »

Yesterday there was a 4v4 event on the usually lowest populated Campaign Blackreach on the EU server.
RadReg and echoing vigor stacking weren't allowed.
After a while a lot of spectators gathered up, but for the most part people were just standing around, maybe using some skills or buffs here and there. Overall not coming close to what happens in big fights at all.

Guess what, even without a fight going on people were crashing, having issues to log back in and having some delayed break frees.
And in the end, when the "free for all" started (all groups and spectators fighting for fun), the lag increased a lot, breaking free and using skills heavily delayed (reminder: RadReg and echoing vigor weren't allowed).

But yea, for sure it's the "ballgroups" being the reason for the performance issues and the root of all evil.

Nobody is claiming that reworking/removing RR/echoing vigor would fix lag.

A lot of people are saying, that "ballgroups" are causing the lag with those and other skills tho. Whereas i'm convinced, that it's to a bigger part just about the amount of people (especially if 3 way fight + npcs) in an area, that is causing performance issues over the individual playstyle.

Im more convinced the lag is near completely out of the player's hands.

Think about it, all the band-aid solutions they have tried have produced little to no result.

Remove deer: Still lag.
Remove destructible towers: Still lag.
No CP: Still lag.
Group only healing: Lag.
Skill cooldowns: Possible reduction in lag, but who can tell when it takes 3 seconds to cast anything with or without the CD.
Reducing group sizes: Still lagging.
Reducing population cap: Still lagging
Re-doing CP to lessen calculations: LAg
Turning off proc sets: Same old lag

They keep removing things, sometimes major things all in the name of performance, but we end up with shallower and shallower gameplay.

Fawn4287 · May 2021

Faded wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I think ball groups might actually enjoy a better challenge

Really? What about their current playstyle suggests they're looking for a challenge?

> This

Ball groups aren't looking for a challenge, if they were they would take their play style to where its supposed to be and push hard mode vet trial scores, where 12 man stacking is supposed to be done not try to ulti dump smaller groups of pugs and keep keeps flagged.

Earthewen · May 2021

Greasytengu wrote: »

CrustyCroco wrote: »

LostToTheSea wrote: »

CrustyCroco wrote: »

Yesterday there was a 4v4 event on the usually lowest populated Campaign Blackreach on the EU server.
RadReg and echoing vigor stacking weren't allowed.
After a while a lot of spectators gathered up, but for the most part people were just standing around, maybe using some skills or buffs here and there. Overall not coming close to what happens in big fights at all.

Guess what, even without a fight going on people were crashing, having issues to log back in and having some delayed break frees.
And in the end, when the "free for all" started (all groups and spectators fighting for fun), the lag increased a lot, breaking free and using skills heavily delayed (reminder: RadReg and echoing vigor weren't allowed).

But yea, for sure it's the "ballgroups" being the reason for the performance issues and the root of all evil.

Nobody is claiming that reworking/removing RR/echoing vigor would fix lag.

A lot of people are saying, that "ballgroups" are causing the lag with those and other skills tho. Whereas i'm convinced, that it's to a bigger part just about the amount of people (especially if 3 way fight + npcs) in an area, that is causing performance issues over the individual playstyle.

Im more convinced the lag is near completely out of the player's hands.

Think about it, all the band-aid solutions they have tried have produced little to no result.

Remove deer: Still lag.
Remove destructible towers: Still lag.
No CP: Still lag.
Group only healing: Lag.
Skill cooldowns: Possible reduction in lag, but who can tell when it takes 3 seconds to cast anything with or without the CD.
Reducing group sizes: Still lagging.
Reducing population cap: Still lagging
Re-doing CP to lessen calculations: LAg
Turning off proc sets: Same old lag

They keep removing things, sometimes major things all in the name of performance, but we end up with shallower and shallower gameplay.

I completely agree with you on this. They have changed so much and ... the game is deteriorating for PvP. I loved it before the CC wars of 2020 started (which are still going on). Do you remember the lag wars of the past? Now we have CC wars. I maintain the idea that if all of these changes have not improved things, then there must be something we haven't looked at. If you look at the logs of the current prime time evenings, there are a ton of things that haven't been looked at from weapon swapping to implementing CC immunities that cannot be bugged or ignored.

I have heard rumors that ZOS is looking at a new server? Anyone have information on that or can point me to where I can find that?