Pauls wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Nope. "Fair" would be allowing the player to know exactly how much any given item is in their local currency. I wouldn't mind a mount being priced at £200 because the price is laid out in front of you. Would I buy a £200 mount? Hell no, but the price is laid out for those who would wish to buy it. "Gem" pricing still an outright money gouging tactic.

It's a lottery/game of chance. There is no actual value and it's impossible to assign one. You can spend $500 on 200 crates or buy 1 crate and you still have the same chances of getting the same items. This just effectively caps it after a point so it's not endless.

I know exactly what it is. It's just a scummy practice. People complain about the pricing in other games. For example, £50 for 1 tank, or £70 for an inane plane, but at least the buyer knows exactly what is required. We bought an rpg, not a gambling simulator that pays out fresh air.

Like i said, I have no issue with what they price stuff at. I have an issue with how they implement some of their pricing. As things stand, here in the UK that 2500 gem mount could cost you between £3.99 or £1000. That's **** up.

People who complain about such things do so because they want one and either can't or don't want to pay the price for it or they don't want to acquire it the way it was meant to be acquired. So they villainize it so that they can try to recruit support to get it changed to conditions THEY want. Now THAT is a scummy practice. The price is what it is, either pay it or move on, IMO.

Its ridiculous people are still complaining about this. You can buy an infinite number of crown crates with gold and from those infinite number of crates you can either win a RA mount or acquire enough gems to buy one outright without.spending.any.real.money.

[Quoted post was removed]

What part of " You can buy an infinite number of crown crates with gold and from those infinite number of crates you can either win a RA mount or acquire enough gems to buy one outright without.spending.any.real.money. " did you not understand?

You know... it's ok to support the continued existence of this game instead of trying to whine everything to free. Running an MMO is really expensive and the chapter sales only fund new content development. Someone has to pay the millions a month to keep the game online.

ThorianB wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Posted this in another forum about this

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565814/how-much-will-the-new-radiant-apex-mounts-cost-in-gems#latest

Seems like a good place for it also:

These Are grossly overpriced, and ZOS should be ashamed of themselves for even considering these prices.

It’s around $35 us dollars to buy 15 crates pack, when buying the 21000 gems at $150 dollars. Say you get 10 gems per crate which is generous I believe. You get 150 gems per 15 crate pack. Let’s up this to 200 gems per crate just to be overly fair. You need 6 pack to get 1200 gems or $210 for the wolf or $280 at 150 gems per 15 crate pack.

In short,
Wolf is $210 - $280 US dollars or $245 on average.
Horse is $280 - $373 US dollars or $327 on average.
Cat is $437 - $583 US dollars or $510 on average.

“He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have.” ― Socrates

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Opening that many crates would put you around 12-15 gems per crate. The more crates you open in a season the better the ROI for gems. J Hart Ellis opens 210 crates pretty much every season and averages around a net gain of 3000-3600 gems per 210. So you could get at least a couple of RA mounts with a $500 investment. All RA mounts should be the same price like all other tiers.

If you watch him open 210 a few times, you would lose all desire to actually buy crown crates. They have horrible drop rates for anything above purple. I might buy 4 or so myself a few times year just for fun using ESO plus crowns, but i would never seriously try to win anything above purple out of crates.

I did allow 200 gems per 15 crates at the top end or average of 13.3 per crate.

At 3000 gems for 210 crates or $490 it is 14.3 gems per crate and at 3600 it jumps to 17.1 gems per crate.

Still out of the average for most players. Since they are not opening that many crates, they will have a lower gem per crate total.

Stand by my statement that ZOS should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves for so much greed.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

I didn’t find the price to be unfair. Sitting on 69,000 gems made it easy to buy them. Way less stressful and money draining than opening 1200.00 worth of crates.

Fischblut wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RU0KLuC__w

What got me the most about this video was the Psijic Portal in the background,I would have gone and looted it no matter if filming a video or not I can not resist them.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Posted this in another forum about this

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565814/how-much-will-the-new-radiant-apex-mounts-cost-in-gems#latest

Seems like a good place for it also:

These Are grossly overpriced, and ZOS should be ashamed of themselves for even considering these prices.

It’s around $35 us dollars to buy 15 crates pack, when buying the 21000 gems at $150 dollars. Say you get 10 gems per crate which is generous I believe. You get 150 gems per 15 crate pack. Let’s up this to 200 gems per crate just to be overly fair. You need 6 pack to get 1200 gems or $210 for the wolf or $280 at 150 gems per 15 crate pack.

In short,
Wolf is $210 - $280 US dollars or $245 on average.
Horse is $280 - $373 US dollars or $327 on average.
Cat is $437 - $583 US dollars or $510 on average.

“He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have.” ― Socrates

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Opening that many crates would put you around 12-15 gems per crate. The more crates you open in a season the better the ROI for gems. J Hart Ellis opens 210 crates pretty much every season and averages around a net gain of 3000-3600 gems per 210. So you could get at least a couple of RA mounts with a $500 investment. All RA mounts should be the same price like all other tiers.

If you watch him open 210 a few times, you would lose all desire to actually buy crown crates. They have horrible drop rates for anything above purple. I might buy 4 or so myself a few times year just for fun using ESO plus crowns, but i would never seriously try to win anything above purple out of crates.

I did allow 200 gems per 15 crates at the top end or average of 13.3 per crate.

At 3000 gems for 210 crates or $490 it is 14.3 gems per crate and at 3600 it jumps to 17.1 gems per crate.

Still out of the average for most players. Since they are not opening that many crates, they will have a lower gem per crate total.

Stand by my statement that ZOS should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves for so much greed.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Everything is the crown store is overpriced by at least 50%. It is why I don't buy crowns typically. I spend the crowns i get with ESO plus and maybe once or twice a year when there is a really good sale i will buy crowns. A lot of the stuff is just reskins and the crown crate RNG means you rarely will get something worthy of spending the crowns on. i think they would have more revenue if they lowered the prices because a lot more people would be tempted to buy. Example: If crates were 150, 600, and 2000 crowns for the packs, i would spend double to quadruple on crown crates( depending on the season) because the value of the crates would be improved significantly and i enjoy opening mystery loot containers( so much that i don't look at the screen when he is dealing cards and flip one at a time). At the current prices their entertainment value is not worth their price to me.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Nope. "Fair" would be allowing the player to know exactly how much any given item is in their local currency. I wouldn't mind a mount being priced at £200 because the price is laid out in front of you. Would I buy a £200 mount? Hell no, but the price is laid out for those who would wish to buy it. "Gem" pricing still an outright money gouging tactic.

It's a lottery/game of chance. There is no actual value and it's impossible to assign one. You can spend $500 on 200 crates or buy 1 crate and you still have the same chances of getting the same items. This just effectively caps it after a point so it's not endless.

I know exactly what it is. It's just a scummy practice. People complain about the pricing in other games. For example, £50 for 1 tank, or £70 for an inane plane, but at least the buyer knows exactly what is required. We bought an rpg, not a gambling simulator that pays out fresh air.

Like i said, I have no issue with what they price stuff at. I have an issue with how they implement some of their pricing. As things stand, here in the UK that 2500 gem mount could cost you between £3.99 or £1000. That's **** up.

People who complain about such things do so because they want one and either can't or don't want to pay the price for it or they don't want to acquire it the way it was meant to be acquired. So they villainize it so that they can try to recruit support to get it changed to conditions THEY want. Now THAT is a scummy practice. The price is what it is, either pay it or move on, IMO.

Its ridiculous people are still complaining about this. You can buy an infinite number of crown crates with gold and from those infinite number of crates you can either win a RA mount or acquire enough gems to buy one outright without.spending.any.real.money.

[snip] Your argument has one massive flaw. Those crowns were bought by real money regardless of who ended up with the crates. Those crates weren't ever paid for with just gold.

As for being envious. You know nothing about me or my financial situation. The amount of money one has at their disposal has nothing to do with anything and quite frankly your argument is used as a deflection tactic rather than discussing the real issue for whatever reason that may be. I have said twice during this very conversation I have zero issue with how much these mounts would cost if a fixed price was attached to them. They could price them at £1000 for all I care. I do have issues with ambiguous pricing policies.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

It doesn't matter WHO paid for them as long as that person is not YOU. It is no one business how other people choose to spend their money. All that matters in this argument is 100% of the player base is capable of buying crown crates in any quantity they desire for gold. All they have to do is earn enough gold first.

You keep arguing that they need to have a fixed price attached to them. They don't need a fixed priced. They need people accept the terms of acquiring one. Your argument isn't even logical because you are arguing they need a fixed price even if that is ~ $1500 but you completely ignore that you can get them for $0 which IS a fixed price and also free if you want to invest the time.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Pauls wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Nope. "Fair" would be allowing the player to know exactly how much any given item is in their local currency. I wouldn't mind a mount being priced at £200 because the price is laid out in front of you. Would I buy a £200 mount? Hell no, but the price is laid out for those who would wish to buy it. "Gem" pricing still an outright money gouging tactic.

It's a lottery/game of chance. There is no actual value and it's impossible to assign one. You can spend $500 on 200 crates or buy 1 crate and you still have the same chances of getting the same items. This just effectively caps it after a point so it's not endless.

I know exactly what it is. It's just a scummy practice. People complain about the pricing in other games. For example, £50 for 1 tank, or £70 for an inane plane, but at least the buyer knows exactly what is required. We bought an rpg, not a gambling simulator that pays out fresh air.

Like i said, I have no issue with what they price stuff at. I have an issue with how they implement some of their pricing. As things stand, here in the UK that 2500 gem mount could cost you between £3.99 or £1000. That's **** up.

People who complain about such things do so because they want one and either can't or don't want to pay the price for it or they don't want to acquire it the way it was meant to be acquired. So they villainize it so that they can try to recruit support to get it changed to conditions THEY want. Now THAT is a scummy practice. The price is what it is, either pay it or move on, IMO.

Its ridiculous people are still complaining about this. You can buy an infinite number of crown crates with gold and from those infinite number of crates you can either win a RA mount or acquire enough gems to buy one outright without.spending.any.real.money.

[Quoted post was removed]

What part of " You can buy an infinite number of crown crates with gold and from those infinite number of crates you can either win a RA mount or acquire enough gems to buy one outright without.spending.any.real.money. " did you not understand?

You know... it's ok to support the continued existence of this game instead of trying to whine everything to free. Running an MMO is really expensive and the chapter sales only fund new content development. Someone has to pay the millions a month to keep the game online.

[snip] please point out where these millions have been pumped back into the game? All this money is pure profit. The money that's used to keep this game afloat probably comes from monthly subs and any dlc. You're deluded if you think crown crate money goes back into the game. I'd even begin to believe your pov if we had noticed major improvements from when they first implemented crown crates. The servers are still a joke at times, chapters probably pay for themselves as do the dlc. Profit isn't a bad thing and I ain't knocking any company for making profit, but it's safe to say crown crates are used to line the pockets of shareholders, not server improvemnts.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

The sales of chapters( real currency sales) will pay for most/ all new content development. Crowns( because this is what you buy with real currency) pays to run the game. Crown crates, houses, and subs, among other things pay to keep the game operational and allow the owner, ZOS, to make a profit.

Crown crates are one of many tools used to sell crowns which in turn pay for the operation of this game. And they sell a lot of crown crates. Crown crate tracker tracked 22,500 Akaviri crown crates. The tracker probably doesn't even cover 10% of PC sales of crown crates.

22,500 crown crates would be 1500 packs of 15 which would be 7.5 million crowns. That is about $54k in crown crate sales that were tracked. It will be magnitudes more than this because the tracker is only on PC and only a small portion of people who opened a crate will have the tracker installed. So if we just conservatively figure 10x that number to cover everyone that is half a million dollars in crown crate spending.

ESO takes millions a month in operating costs. Content development takes tens of millions and can run over 100 million. An MMO is a lot more expensive to run than people think it is. One month of operating cost for this game will be more than one average player will make in a life time. That doesn't include any new stuff like content or server upgrades. That is just to keep the game online.

Seraphayel wrote: »

akdave0 wrote: »

I didn’t find the price to be unfair. Sitting on 69,000 gems made it easy to buy them. Way less stressful and money draining than opening 1200.00 worth of crates.

So you spent well over $10.000 worth on crates? Okay.

More likely they were playing back when ZOS regularly give out crates for free — daily log in rewards, free if you had ESO+ during a trial. It discourages me to think of it because this is something I can never have through any similar means. Such players are in an entirely different economic sphere in the game and one must think this has some influence on the gem prices set, the sting of which is felt by paupers like me who started too late.

I have been playing for about 6 years ish.

Its entirely possible that all the gems I have gained during those years, still do not add up to 2500. I am fairly sure I have only spent a few hundred. Maybe once or twice a year I get enough to purchase something worthwhile. So I doubt I have gained anywhere near 2500 in total.

The Crown Store pricing is generally disgraceful , whether its gems or real money.

ThorianB wrote: »

ESO takes millions a month in operating costs. Content development takes tens of millions and can run over 100 million. An MMO is a lot more expensive to run than people think it is. One month of operating cost for this game will be more than one average player will make in a life time. That doesn't include any new stuff like content or server upgrades. That is just to keep the game online.

These numbers are incredibly exaggerated, at least when it comes to ESO. There is basically no free content in ESO. All updates cost either a subscription (DLCs in Q1, 3 and 4) or need to be bought to be played (Chapter in Q2).

Content development in ESO is at an all time low on top of that. If we compare ESO to any other AAA MMORPG it delivers least content and least diversity of content as every year is basically the exact same. There’s nothing regarding ESO that costs tens of millions, not keeping this game online nor content development for it.

The Crown Store might not be even necessary at all to keep the game going - ESO+ most likely covers the maintenance costs and the overpriced Chapters do the rest. The money they earn with the Crown Store is cash that doesn’t flow back into development, it’s a profit costumers like you and me don’t have any advantage of.

Seraphayel wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

ESO takes millions a month in operating costs. Content development takes tens of millions and can run over 100 million. An MMO is a lot more expensive to run than people think it is. One month of operating cost for this game will be more than one average player will make in a life time. That doesn't include any new stuff like content or server upgrades. That is just to keep the game online.

These numbers are incredibly exaggerated, at least when it comes to ESO. There is basically no free content in ESO. All updates cost either a subscription (DLCs in Q1, 3 and 4) or need to be bought to be played (Chapter in Q2).

MMOs are extremely expensive to run. Chapters only really pay for development cost of new content. DLCs are freebies to keep people interested in logging in. They don't make a lot of sales on people who buy crowns solely to buy DLCs. You can't include them as a reason people buy subs because we have subs now and if you add a DLC to the sub, we will still have a sub. So the sub is still being bought before the DLC is released which means it actually contributes none to almost none to sub income. DLCs are only appealing to the developer because they keep people logging in and people are more likely to keep an active sub if they have reasons to log in regularly. This is normal for every MMO to add content so people keep logging in.

Content development in ESO is at an all time low on top of that. If we compare ESO to any other AAA MMORPG it delivers least content and least diversity of content as every year is basically the exact same. There’s nothing regarding ESO that costs tens of millions, not keeping this game online nor content development for it.

I would disagree with you there. It might have the least amount of content you find interesting but ESO does deliver quite a bit of new content every year. I wouldn't say it is at an all time low either. Content development is the same now as it was when Summerset came out. You likely just find recent content less appealing, which is your own opinion, but in no way means there is less content or that it is less diverse.

The Crown Store might not be even necessary at all to keep the game going - ESO+ most likely covers the maintenance costs and the overpriced Chapters do the rest.

Chapters are pretty standard in pricing. I disagree that they are overpriced. We don't know how much they get in subs and Crown purchases( remember crowns are a major part of subs). I do know that running an MMO is expensive. Just to keep the servers online at WoW cost millions of dollars a month. In its first 4 years of operation Blizzard spent an average of $50 million a year ($61 million today)just in operating cost of keeping the game running( no new content development). Here is some 2009 data about WoW

* Blizzard Online Network Services run in 10 data centers around the world, including facilities in Washington, California, Texas, Massachusetts, France, Germany, Sweden, South Korea, China, and Taiwan.

* Blizzard uses 20,000 systems and 1.3 petabytes of storage to power its gaming operations.

*WoW's infrastructure includes 13,250 server blades, 75,000 CPU cores, and 112.5 terabytes of blade RAM.

* The Blizzard network is managed by a staff of 68 people.

For reference WoW has sold 14 million copies in its lifetime. ESO has sold 15 million copies as of 2020. ESO would require more/better server hardware than WoW.

The money they earn with the Crown Store is cash that doesn’t flow back into development, it’s a profit costumers like you and me don’t have any advantage of.

It is the goal of every business to make a profit. A business that doesn't operate for a profit is called a charity. It's not bad that a business wants to make a profit.

ThorianB wrote: »

1. MMOs are extremely expensive to run. Chapters only really pay for development cost of new content. DLCs are freebies to keep people interested in logging in. They don't make a lot of sales on people who buy crowns solely to buy DLCs. You can't include them as a reason people buy subs because we have subs now and if you add a DLC to the sub, we will still have a sub. So the sub is still being bought before the DLC is released which means it actually contributes none to almost none to sub income. DLCs are only appealing to the developer because they keep people logging in and people are more likely to keep an active sub if they have reasons to log in regularly. This is normal for every MMO to add content so people keep logging in.

2. I would disagree with you there. It might have the least amount of content you find interesting but ESO does deliver quite a bit of new content every year. I wouldn't say it is at an all time low either. Content development is the same now as it was when Summerset came out. You likely just find recent content less appealing, which is your own opinion, but in no way means there is less content or that it is less diverse.

3. Chapters are pretty standard in pricing. I disagree that they are overpriced. We don't know how much they get in subs and Crown purchases( remember crowns are a major part of subs). I do know that running an MMO is expensive. Just to keep the servers online at WoW cost millions of dollars a month. In its first 4 years of operation Blizzard spent an average of $50 million a year ($61 million today)just in operating cost of keeping the game running( no new content development). Here is some 2009 data about WoW

* Blizzard Online Network Services run in 10 data centers around the world, including facilities in Washington, California, Texas, Massachusetts, France, Germany, Sweden, South Korea, China, and Taiwan.

* Blizzard uses 20,000 systems and 1.3 petabytes of storage to power its gaming operations.

*WoW's infrastructure includes 13,250 server blades, 75,000 CPU cores, and 112.5 terabytes of blade RAM.

* The Blizzard network is managed by a staff of 68 people.

4. For reference WoW has sold 14 million copies in its lifetime. ESO has sold 15 million copies as of 2020. ESO would require more/better server hardware than WoW.

5. It is the goal of every business to make a profit. A business that doesn't operate for a profit is called a charity. It's not bad that a business wants to make a profit.

1. No, they're not. There's a reason why even dead MMORPGs are kept alive in maintenance mode: because it's easy and cheap to keep them going, especially when you have a cash shop integrated. The least amount of MMORPGs are completely turned off, this mostly happens either when the brand behind it is too big to be kept going (Warhammer Online) or when there's a successor on the market. There are MMORPGs that are run by fans and just live by their funds (Return of Reckoning), so it cannot be that expensive, when even a small yet dedicated fanbase can keep an MMORPG like Warhammer Online going.

DLC are freebies? Where? DLCs in ESO cost a subscription fee or crowns, they're not free. ESO+ gives you nothing worth of content besides the Q4 chapter - two dungeons in Q1 and Q3 are for sure not worth 3x $13 + 3x $13. And the Chapter has to be bought, so that doesn't even count.

2. No, content overall just decreased. The amount of features brought into the game and the variety of content on top of that. Remember when we got trials in the Q4 DLC or additional gameplay features? Remember getting housing for free? This isn't the case anymore. The clear focus of ESO's ongoing development is the production of Crown Store items, as we can see. When did we have the last mount you could earn in game? Indriks? Oh you mean the dozen recoloured Indriks we could get over the course of a year in the game? Next to that we get what, 10 mounts per crate season? The same with houses, costumes etc. Most stuff can't be earned in game and must be bought because ZOS doesn't bother to produce content for the ESO+ / F2P player, it's all for people who leave hundreds of $$$ in the cash shop. Content is not less diverse than previously, it's as diverse as it was in the beginning, which is not diverse at all: 2 dungeons - chapter - 2 dungeons - small zone. This is the content cadence since 2017. Nothing changed in that regard. Maps of chapter zones / dlc zones got smaller with less incentives, but that's about it.

3. No, they're not. They're incredibly overpriced for the amount of content they deliver. Chapters cost as much as expansions in other MMORPGs, the difference is that other MMORPG expansions do not consist of only one zone, they consist of multiple zones and they contain dungeons on top of that - dungeons we have to pay for in ESO. Just compare an ESO Chapter to an expansion of WoW or FFXIV that cost the same and you'll see how less we get in ESO compared to other games for the same pricetag. And what's with these 2009 numbers? They're outdated, technology made huge leaps in the last ten years, cloud gaming was established, data centers and servers became cheaper - you really cannot take 2009 numbers and apply them to 2020 or 2021.

4. WoW Vanilla without any expansion has maybe sold 14 million copies. WoW's lifetime sales with expansions included are beyond 100 million. In 2014 WoW already reached the milestone of 100 million accounts created. ESO's numbers are tiny compared to that.

5. I do not have any problem with making profit. I have a problem with questionable pricing in a cash shop that benefits your game zero as it is the case in ESO. They're earning tons of money with the crown store, yet the performance of ESO is as poor as it was 3-4 years ago, it maybe even decreased. This alone is a sign that the money earned is not or at best barely used to improve the state of the game.

There's almost nothing in ESO that's reasonably priced. Yes, I'm still here and subscribed to ESO+ because I really like the game, the setting and what I can do with it playing on a console on my couch - comfy! But from the Crown Store to the Chapters and DLCs, ESO is an incredibly overpriced MMORPG. I don't even buy Chapters anymore as they're as expensive as Morrowind / Elsweyr, but contain less content. I'm waiting until they sell for $10-15 half a year later, because they're simply not worth more than that anymore.

Why are the Radiant Apex's all different prices but under the same tier? It's the only thing that makes no sense...

Seraphayel wrote: »

1. No, they're not. There's a reason why even dead MMORPGs are kept alive in maintenance mode: because it's easy and cheap to keep them going, especially when you have a cash shop integrated.

I stopped reading here. No point in continuing this discussion as this is just a ridiculous statement. It is well known both inside and outside the gaming industry that MMOs are insanely expensive to run.

As an MMORPG dies, the team managing it shrinks, the amount of hardware required to run it shrinks, the amount of electric and bandwidth needed to run it shrink. So the operating cost shrinks, so it takes less assets to keep it running but the company is no longer investing in the game. They are just removing parts of operations you don't see over time.

They are, at best, barely profitable, while operations are being drawn down and they are only profitable then because they are removing a lot of services from the game such as full time developers working on updates, then devs working on just bug fixes, then devs working part time on bug fixes, then devs only do basic maintenance and then devs going longer periods between maintenance.

Your argument is akin to saying cars aren't expensive because you can still buy a running beater for $500 at a scrapyard.