the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I know the history, and it supports my position, not yours. The only thing new about the current CP cap increase is the magnitude.

The main problem with rebaselining is that it undermines the whole point of the CP curve, which is to allow newer players to catch up to veterans. If everyone gets rebaselined, then the curve no longer helps new players catch up (because the veterans got moved forward on the curve). Rebaselining penalizes new players because it makes it harder for them to catch up to the veterans.

By allowing people to earn beyond the current cap, ESO is already letting veterans get farther ahead of new players than most other games would.

uplift of the floor by quite bit. lowering of the ceiling plus vertical progression cap that is pretty low and very tapered (diff between nocp and max vert cp is much smaller in new system afaik) already solves the catch up adequately imo.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I know the history, and it supports my position, not yours. The only thing new about the current CP cap increase is the magnitude.

The main problem with rebaselining is that it undermines the whole point of the CP curve, which is to allow newer players to catch up to veterans. If everyone gets rebaselined, then the curve no longer helps new players catch up (because the veterans got moved forward on the curve). Rebaselining penalizes new players because it makes it harder for them to catch up to the veterans.

By allowing people to earn beyond the current cap, ESO is already letting veterans get farther ahead of new players than most other games would.

How does it support your point?

A CP 810 goes to 1100 hence making him close to maxing out his role, I go from 1600 to 2400+ which doesn't add any other damage or defensive benefits, simply QoL where I can just hotswap my orbs based on the content I'm doing.

On top of that, at that point, I'll remain in the sharper part of the exp curve, as I am now, and am not gaining CP nearly as fast as everyone else, effectively making it that people are gonna catch up fast enough.

So, QoL for the vet + slow CP gain and quick CP gains with a significantly boosted CP level for the newer players.

I don't agree with the concept that rebaselining isn't fair because it doesn't advantage newer players. The concept of ignoring accrued experience because you want to reduce the gap between vet and new players is hard to reason without arbitrarily deciding that "this is what I want to do and I will do it" is a valid justification.

The gap between newer and vet player is already significantly reduced because of the limitations introduced by the number of orbs you can slot. They've effectively made it that higher CP only have more freedom to swap this and that orb on the fly and if that's the only difference, there is no reason NOT to consider accrued exp of vet players.

Serious question to those responding in this thread who are pro-conversion:

What would you position be if the converse was happening?

Say for whatever reason ZOS changed the XP/CP curve the other way so it cost MORE XP for each CP (say in conjunction with making CP more powerful). Would you support a conversion system in that case, which would rebalance you to a lower CP to match your current equivalent xp total?

If your answer to that question is "No, I should remain at my current CP", but your position on the current CP1.0 to CP2.0 debate is pro conversion, then it suggests to me that the argument of "I should get to keep my current xp number" is not the true motivation, and rather it is being used simply because it is a convenient statement to back what is actually a different motivation, which may be something more like "I want to keep my current effectiveness" or "I am currently at the vert cap, and want to stay there and not have to grind again" or "the vert cap is being moved further away from me so I want a headstart on getting back to it".

And if those are the actually motivations (they certainly much more closely align for mine personally), then yes, I agree these are issues. However I simply don't think a conversion system is a fair way to address it as a conversion based on xp when going to the new CP2.0 system disproportionately benefits longer term players over newer players and I would instead prefer a solution that doesn't leave new(er) players behind.

CleymenZero wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I know the history, and it supports my position, not yours. The only thing new about the current CP cap increase is the magnitude.

The main problem with rebaselining is that it undermines the whole point of the CP curve, which is to allow newer players to catch up to veterans. If everyone gets rebaselined, then the curve no longer helps new players catch up (because the veterans got moved forward on the curve). Rebaselining penalizes new players because it makes it harder for them to catch up to the veterans.

By allowing people to earn beyond the current cap, ESO is already letting veterans get farther ahead of new players than most other games would.

How does it support your point?

A CP 810 goes to 1100 hence making him close to maxing out his role, I go from 1600 to 2400+ which doesn't add any other damage or defensive benefits, simply QoL where I can just hotswap my orbs based on the content I'm doing.

On top of that, at that point, I'll remain in the sharper part of the exp curve, as I am now, and am not gaining CP nearly as fast as everyone else, effectively making it that people are gonna catch up fast enough.

So, QoL for the vet + slow CP gain and quick CP gains with a significantly boosted CP level for the newer players.

I don't agree with the concept that rebaselining isn't fair because it doesn't advantage newer players. The concept of ignoring accrued experience because you want to reduce the gap between vet and new players is hard to reason without arbitrarily deciding that "this is what I want to do and I will do it" is a valid justification.

The gap between newer and vet player is already significantly reduced because of the limitations introduced by the number of orbs you can slot. They've effectively made it that higher CP only have more freedom to swap this and that orb on the fly and if that's the only difference, there is no reason NOT to consider accrued exp of vet players.

So the 810 player that was 800 CP behind you will now be 1300 CP behind you. Catch up mechanic has just been nullified.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I know the history, and it supports my position, not yours. The only thing new about the current CP cap increase is the magnitude.

The main problem with rebaselining is that it undermines the whole point of the CP curve, which is to allow newer players to catch up to veterans. If everyone gets rebaselined, then the curve no longer helps new players catch up (because the veterans got moved forward on the curve). Rebaselining penalizes new players because it makes it harder for them to catch up to the veterans.

By allowing people to earn beyond the current cap, ESO is already letting veterans get farther ahead of new players than most other games would.

uplift of the floor by quite bit. lowering of the ceiling plus vertical progression cap that is pretty low and very tapered (diff between nocp and max vert cp is much smaller in new system afaik) already solves the catch up adequately imo.

But the heavily increased taper only address the catch up in terms of getting to say, 90% power/effectiveness, quicker than previous.
It does nothing to close the gap in terms of the time to get to 100% effectiveness, which no matter what requires a player to get to the vertical cap of CP (which may be different depending on their game mode or role).

And, no matter how tapered that last part of that gain is, or how much they reduce the gain from say 0cp to max vert cp, as long as a difference between those points exists, many players will feel that they must be at max vert cp to be competitive and hence feel the need to grind to that point.

And that vertical cap is potentially further away xp wise than it ever has been (it may similar for single role PvE, but definitely way higher for a fully fledged PvP build for instance).

pvp has nocp campaigns so we can leave that one out vertcap wise.

will players still be motivated if cp900 to cp1200 is 5%. sure. but thats not a problem. 5% difference doesnt make it a requirement. that would make it a problem.

and with new curve new player might hit 900 before he has full set of minmax metasets.. which might just make the bigger difference.

biggest diff gonna be skill imo.

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Here's a very summarized series of events (many of which you may already be aware of) :
- CP is implemented, max CP then is 510 I believe but they say it is designed and balanced to go up to 3600
- POWER CREEP
- they stop increasing CP cap while they figure the way forward (CP cap is 810 at that time) *what are they supposed to do? Some people are above CP 810 and have been for a while, do you remove CP slap everyone at 810 or just let them keep increasing?*
- CP 2.0 is announced, experience curve is drastically modified, and they skyrocket directly to CP 3600
- it is also announced that CP will be directly converted

If I remember correctly, in the beginning, it was more like:-

- CP hits PTS
- PTS testers start soloing crazy things with CP3600 template sorcs, players tell ZOS this is crazy over powered.
- CP releases with no cap, game becomes a grind game.
- PvPers are going crazy as they get 1 shot by players who have been "no life" grinding cp, some players are reported (by ZOS on an ESO Live) getting to CP1600+ within weeks of release.
- ZOS add a cap to how many CP can be spent (510cp, correct), I think they altered the CP xp curve and added a catch up mechanic for new players (VRank players were given some CP when CP was released, I remember I was almost at CP cap when it was introduced as many regular players were).
- POWER CREEP
- Skills/classes nerfed
- OP DLC armour sets
- POWER CREEP
- Skills/classes nerfed
- OP DLC armour sets
- POWER CREEP
- ETC....

THERE’S the problem — stop with the OP armor sets! That’s why a large number of players hate proc sets and the current PvP meta is hide in a tank can while your armor kills your foes.

No one likes having their abilities and power nerfed and who likes being forced to use only a few sets to be meta? It would be great if armor was kept within a certain balance, so some may be situationally better, but all viable for some builds and content.

Oh yeah those new Greymoor armor sets are so OP. That's why everyone still runs Mother's Sorrow (released with One Tamriel in 2016) and Perfected False God's Devotion (released with Elsweyr in 2019).

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Oh yeah those new Greymoor armor sets are so OP. That's why everyone still runs Mother's Sorrow (released with One Tamriel in 2016) and Perfected False God's Devotion (released with Elsweyr in 2019).

I see that you don't pvp often.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

bayushi2005 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Oh yeah those new Greymoor armor sets are so OP. That's why everyone still runs Mother's Sorrow (released with One Tamriel in 2016) and Perfected False God's Devotion (released with Elsweyr in 2019).

I see that you don't pvp often.

If it doesn't affect PvE it's not really power creep, it's just bad balancing.

But, but... you're quoting someone who directly refers to pvp meta.

Ranger209 wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I know the history, and it supports my position, not yours. The only thing new about the current CP cap increase is the magnitude.

The main problem with rebaselining is that it undermines the whole point of the CP curve, which is to allow newer players to catch up to veterans. If everyone gets rebaselined, then the curve no longer helps new players catch up (because the veterans got moved forward on the curve). Rebaselining penalizes new players because it makes it harder for them to catch up to the veterans.

By allowing people to earn beyond the current cap, ESO is already letting veterans get farther ahead of new players than most other games would.

How does it support your point?

A CP 810 goes to 1100 hence making him close to maxing out his role, I go from 1600 to 2400+ which doesn't add any other damage or defensive benefits, simply QoL where I can just hotswap my orbs based on the content I'm doing.

On top of that, at that point, I'll remain in the sharper part of the exp curve, as I am now, and am not gaining CP nearly as fast as everyone else, effectively making it that people are gonna catch up fast enough.

So, QoL for the vet + slow CP gain and quick CP gains with a significantly boosted CP level for the newer players.

I don't agree with the concept that rebaselining isn't fair because it doesn't advantage newer players. The concept of ignoring accrued experience because you want to reduce the gap between vet and new players is hard to reason without arbitrarily deciding that "this is what I want to do and I will do it" is a valid justification.

The gap between newer and vet player is already significantly reduced because of the limitations introduced by the number of orbs you can slot. They've effectively made it that higher CP only have more freedom to swap this and that orb on the fly and if that's the only difference, there is no reason NOT to consider accrued exp of vet players.

So the 810 player that was 800 CP behind you will now be 1300 CP behind you. Catch up mechanic has just been nullified.

Ummmm... the catch up mechanic is not the cp number but the xp curve...

For example, I'm 800 CP ahead of you but you gain CP 4x faster than me cause I'm in the the accentuated part of the slope.

remosito wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

So there has been no response from ZOS yet ?
I hope they will consider implementing it so no experience will be lost in Champion system 2.0.

You didn't lose any experience, why is this still hard for people to understand?

Of course we did loose exp.. At least the way I and others see it.

How is it difficult to grasp for some people that some might look at a thing one way and others look at it differently?

Because this formula doesn't change, regardless of "how you look at it."

((CP's you have in 1.0) - (CP's you have in 2.0)) x any XP value here still equals Z E R O.

Your CP's are the same. Your XP earned is the same.

The cost to get there is the only thing changing, and that's for the catch up mechanic, intended for people with far less CP than you have to be complaining here.

It doesn't make you less viable, it allows newer players to become viable faster.

This entitlement perspective is quickly becoming the latest dead horse.

As I said. You can look at it any way you want. All good with me. Where I am from it's totally normal for people
to have a right to their own way of seeing things and expressing them even. (Well.. short of hate speech that is)
[Snip]


The way I see it CP number is simply an expression of how much Xp you have earned.

If you look at this table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uS2H-elnpVngKOMBqwl3LHytDHSOBwmDfDoQHHOtoh4/edit?usp=sharing

You will see:
- CP1.0 a value of 1200 expresses I have made 515M Xp.
- CP2.0 a value of 1200 expresses I have made 206M Xp.

So by keeping our Cp the same I indeed loose 60% of my Xp. Pretty simple.

As for catch up mechanic. Why is there a secondary catchup mechanic involving degrading vet players Xp necessary. That's what the vertical progression cap is there for. Which is generously low imo.

[Snip]

You absolutely have the right to view anything you like, any way you like. It won't magically make it true.

Using your very own example: 1200 CP's = 1200 CP's.

One of the first things I did on PTS is go in on some of the less forgiving content the game has to offer to see if it was still clearable. It was. It took a little longer, but it was not night and day difference, as most are assuming it will be.

For further record, that was with none of the mitigation passives unlocked.

The catchup mechanic for a newer player does not somehow make you weaker except in your own mind. If the vertical cap is so generously low, I understand what your complaint is even less.

If you bought an item today for $12.00, and tomorrow it goes on sale for $6.00, you haven't somehow lost $6.00, and you still have the exact same item.

The change goes live on Monday. You can view it as you wish, and either play, or not play. Or, you can view it as it is and continue your progression. Choice is yours.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

If anyone needs to jog their memory of what the VR to CP conversion was really like.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25671

OH YEAH.

To all the new players complaining about this CP conversion please realize that before ya'll were even contemplating this game:

XP gained was not shared between your character before CP

The higher leveled players around here aren't complaining because we remember how things were.

• When you needed to run VMA 2000 times because you got a vMA inferno and it dropped in powered (no transmutation)
• Staves counted as one piece of a set (now two pieces)
• Prosperous was an armor train increasing our gold (became invigorating)
• Jewelry could not be improved, dropped in 3 traits, and gold was a unicorn
• Normal dungeons were tough and vet dungeons were like trials
• Outfit stations didn't exist
• Monster helmets weren't a guaranteed drop
• Your chances at the monster shoulder you needed, in the trait you needed was insanely slim
• Max CP was 780/750/720/690 etc
• You had to run through Cyrodiil to get to Imperial City
• etc

The list goes on. Be happy that they're even doing this with the CP system. There will clearly be adjustments in the future but for now take the time to slowly grow just like this game has.

@trackdemon5512
Add to your list:

• Double XP events didn't occur 15 times a year.
• There was no high XP daily that knocked out your enlightenment in one fell swoop. (There also was no enlightenment)
• Double bank space wasn't a thing, so inventory management was an even bigger part of the game than it is now.
• Group creation was even harder because you couldn't group with anyone outside of your Alliance.
• Entering non-Alliance areas required you or a group member to have completed Silver/Gold to even set foot.
• Gear was not always tradable, even among group members. So, that perfect trait piece that the other role got couldn't be passed on to you if they wanted to.
• If you were more than 4 levels above your fellow group members, you received zero XP for kills and no loot.

This is such a minor 'issue' compared with the inconveniences of the past.

Is it a "nerf" in some way? Sure. I'll give everyone that. Is it as gamebreaking as most are making it out to be, not remotely.

[Edited for removed content]

Ranger209 wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I know the history, and it supports my position, not yours. The only thing new about the current CP cap increase is the magnitude.

The main problem with rebaselining is that it undermines the whole point of the CP curve, which is to allow newer players to catch up to veterans. If everyone gets rebaselined, then the curve no longer helps new players catch up (because the veterans got moved forward on the curve). Rebaselining penalizes new players because it makes it harder for them to catch up to the veterans.

By allowing people to earn beyond the current cap, ESO is already letting veterans get farther ahead of new players than most other games would.

How does it support your point?

A CP 810 goes to 1100 hence making him close to maxing out his role, I go from 1600 to 2400+ which doesn't add any other damage or defensive benefits, simply QoL where I can just hotswap my orbs based on the content I'm doing.

On top of that, at that point, I'll remain in the sharper part of the exp curve, as I am now, and am not gaining CP nearly as fast as everyone else, effectively making it that people are gonna catch up fast enough.

So, QoL for the vet + slow CP gain and quick CP gains with a significantly boosted CP level for the newer players.

I don't agree with the concept that rebaselining isn't fair because it doesn't advantage newer players. The concept of ignoring accrued experience because you want to reduce the gap between vet and new players is hard to reason without arbitrarily deciding that "this is what I want to do and I will do it" is a valid justification.

The gap between newer and vet player is already significantly reduced because of the limitations introduced by the number of orbs you can slot. They've effectively made it that higher CP only have more freedom to swap this and that orb on the fly and if that's the only difference, there is no reason NOT to consider accrued exp of vet players.

So the 810 player that was 800 CP behind you will now be 1300 CP behind you. Catch up mechanic has just been nullified.

which is solely QoL difference and not a performance difference. so not critical at all. Catchup only really matters for vertical progression, not horizontal.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

As I said. You can look at it any way you want. All good with me. Where I am from it's totally normal for people
to have a right to their own way of seeing things and expressing them even. (Well.. short of hate speech that is)
[Snip]


The way I see it CP number is simply an expression of how much Xp you have earned.

If you look at this table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uS2H-elnpVngKOMBqwl3LHytDHSOBwmDfDoQHHOtoh4/edit?usp=sharing

You will see:
- CP1.0 a value of 1200 expresses I have made 515M Xp.
- CP2.0 a value of 1200 expresses I have made 206M Xp.

So by keeping our Cp the same I indeed loose 60% of my Xp. Pretty simple.

As for catch up mechanic. Why is there a secondary catchup mechanic involving degrading vet players Xp necessary. That's what the vertical progression cap is there for. Which is generously low imo.

You absolutely have the right to view anything you like, any way you like. It won't magically make it true.

not in the habit of engaging people who confuse things which are clearly matters which allow for differing views/opinions or personal thruths with matters that allow for absolute truths.

true/false. doesnt apply here in any way shape or form.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Using your very own example: 1200 CP's = 1200 CP's.

One of the first things I did on PTS is go in on some of the less forgiving content the game has to offer to see if it was still clearable. It was. It took a little longer, but it was not night and day difference, as most are assuming it will be.

For further record, that was with none of the mitigation passives unlocked.

The catchup mechanic for a newer player does not somehow make you weaker except in your own mind. If the vertical cap is so generously low, I understand what your complaint is even less.

horizontal progression and qol multipurpose is what is the exciting new feature with cp2.0 to me. All my chars are tanks or heals, who as well do solo stuff and pvp.

Zos throwing 60% of my Xp out the window disallows that and I have to reinvest those 2500 hours to get back to where this new system is exciting.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You can view it as you wish, and either play, or not play. Or, you can view it as it is and continue your progression.

absolute truths are sooo wrong

Oh..and I will keep playing. I'll just stop paying. I am sure I'll find something to do with those 200 bucks a year.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Is it a "nerf" in some way? Sure. I'll give everyone that. Is it as gamebreaking as most are making it out to be, not remotely.

how about you let me decide what is gamebraking for me?

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Things get changed, over time, and progressively. The players behind you with years of play have much much much much more XP than you can imagine. Day 1 players worked off a different scale. Each individual character had their own XP and it took forever just to get to where CP160 is now.



There doesn't need to be CP scaling. CP earned is CP earned and that stays how it is. The XP amounts of all players vary really wildly and total XP isn't something constant or really tracked. Under the various changes all players have different total play XP amounts that in no way line up.

Well aware of pre810 players having even more Xp.

But just because you can't do something perfect is not a reason to not at least do it as good as you can in my book.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Basing the level on CP rather than total XP earned is already a fair way to address the issue and encourages more fairness. Otherwise you would have people complaining that old players are already at cap and it will take you five years to get there.

It's not fair in my book. And I disagree that people would complain about some very few players already being at the cap. ZOS said during stream the big chunk of vets are above 1200 but below 1600 range.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

AND on another note I don't think people realize just how much CP 3600 points is. Current max isn't even A THIRD of that. The idea that anyone is grinding to 3600 is just as ridiculous. Even if you were doing master writs all day long with 150% XP scrolls it would take you well more than a year to get to 3600. And even then you can't even properly use all of those points.

so if 3600 is sooo incredibly much. And I agree here. with my playstyle the 2B Xp needed is 17000 hours of playtime.
What's the biggie with scaling people up. Most will still be so very short of 3600.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

ZOS is right and ya'll should be content with leveling at the speed you are

How about I decide what I am content with or not? Not sure tbh why you have this need to tell others how they should
feel. or what they should be content with. Why is simply stating how you feel not good enough? Like "I feel content with leveling at the speed I am"

Zos can think/decide whatever they want. These forums are here for us to give feedback about how we feel.

Which I am doing.