Thanks for ruining heavy armor

Madhojo · March 2021

[snip] I dont PvP at all but I do run a magic theiving heavy armor orc. Yeah its not going to win awards for maxing out stats but I made it work well for pve and it was fun.

Now with these insane nerfs (added detection range??? Extra sprint cost??? Oh yeah I forgot ESO is a realistic sim of a game) im going to just have to abandon heavy completely in favor or medium or light as well the majority of pve players (thanks for nerfing the overall armor bonus as well).

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Freakin_Hytte · March 2021

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

CyberOnEso · March 2021

How often does increased detection range and extra sprint cost impact your ability in PvE?

You can get bonus movement speed out of combat and decreased detection range in the new green CP tree, if you so choose.

Elo106 · March 2021

Eh stuff gets nerfed for PvP, stuff gets nerfed for PvE got to balance the game on something. As long as we dont balance the game around magic thieving heavy armor orcs its all good

wheem_ESO · March 2021

Madhojo wrote: »

[snip] I dont PvP at all but I do run a magic theiving heavy armor orc. Yeah its not going to win awards for maxing out stats but I made it work well for pve and it was fun.

Now with these insane nerfs (added detection range??? Extra sprint cost??? Oh yeah I forgot ESO is a realistic sim of a game) im going to just have to abandon heavy completely in favor or medium or light as well the majority of pve players (thanks for nerfing the overall armor bonus as well).

[snip]

PvP frequently eats nerfs due to PvE, including in the upcoming patch (ie, the change to 7th Legion happening because of some goofy "score pushing" nonsense in Trials).

If all you're doing is solo PvE stuff that isn't Veteran Vateshran or Maelstrom Arenas, you can eat a multitude of nerfs to whatever playstyle you're engaging in and still be just fine.

pdeb360 · March 2021

Im happy with it. People using heavy armor in pvp got no skill. Only what they do is waiting for the ulti and that use it with balorgh + excecute. In the meantime u only kite the damage.

DaveMoeDee · March 2021

Elo106 wrote: »

Eh stuff gets nerfed for PvP, stuff gets nerfed for PvE got to balance the game on something. As long as we dont balance the game around magic thieving heavy armor orcs its all good

Personally, I hate all rebalancing. But I don't complain about it because that is part of the game. I accept that it is something I have to deal with because this TES game is an MMO.

I also gave up on doing any non-group PvE activity as a tank. Everything ends up feeling like a grind. It does suck to have to carry the extra gear and I couldn't imagine swapping builds without addons. I would probably just spec my main to DPS and give up on tanking if I was on console.

A year ago I was still short on skill points for a full tanking build plus dps skills at the same time while my main was also my main crafter. But after finishing Craglorn and working through a backlog of 3 DLC, I have more than enough. This is likely a problem for many others though. I haven't really looked at the updates, but there is always the concern that changes could further push people away from tanking, making dungeon queues even worse for most.

xaraan · March 2021

tbf, I do think these changes to heavy were more focused on heavy armor pvp builds, however, they aren't even the real changes needed to help balance the heavy pvp meta. It will effect a portion of heavy pvp builds, but not the main problems (and as some have pointed out the other game elements that added together make heavy work for pvp).

So, what's "great" is that they are messing heavy up for PvE for not even a good reason.

Sangwyne · March 2021

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

Nah, I've seen more than my fair share of PvP players on these forums specifically asking for nerfs to Heavy armor and tanks, not realizing that the issue in PvP is Malacath, along with Proc sets and burst windows afforded by CC and Balorghs, granting damage independent of max stamina/magicka, crit, and weapon/spell damage - all stats that tanks usually lack. I've made no fewer than 3 separate discussions regarding the changes, and each time they've been hijacked by people demanding nerfs to damage dealt in Heavy armor, when Heavy armor already has less damage by virtue of its complete lack of damage related passives compared to Light and Medium.

CyberOnEso wrote: »

How often does increased detection range and extra sprint cost impact your ability in PvE?

How often do I sprint in PvE? Um... all the time? And you're forgetting, Heavy reduces our sprint speed now. People tend to forget that armor passives are more than just mitigation and damage, they're also mobility, sustain, and utility, and Heavy armor punishes those far more than other types; there is a power budget for speed/sustain just like there is for damage and mitigation, and Medium armor has far more power allocated to its passives than other types, due to zero drawbacks whatsoever.

Tannus15 · March 2021

I don't understand this complaint.

There is an outfit system, so you can wear medium and look like heavy.
There are sets like brass fortitude to get high armour value in medium armour.
There are items like the ring of the hunt to make up for the speed loss.

This may seem weird, but you can actually have more than 1 set of armour and swap it out to do different content.

oscarovegren · March 2021

You are wearing HEAVY armor. Why would you sprint as fast as medium or light armor builds?

Sangwyne · March 2021

Tannus15 wrote: »

I don't understand this complaint.

There is an outfit system, so you can wear medium and look like heavy.
There are sets like brass fortitude to get high armour value in medium armour.
There are items like the ring of the hunt to make up for the speed loss.

This may seem weird, but you can actually have more than 1 set of armour and swap it out to do different content.

I don't want to look like I wear Heavy, I want to actually wear Heavy and not have it feel miserable. I am a tank. I don't want to swap to Medium with high armor values to tank; Medium armor shouldn't even GIVE block cost reduction, that should be on Heavy armor. I don't want to have to make up the speed loss with Mythic items and lose a monster set in the process, and I shouldn't have to. Tanking is a valid playstyle. Stop touting this nonsense that if tanks want to be able to do content, we have to swap to Medium or Light armor because Heavy armor isn't a valid playstyle in your eyes. Too many people with zero experience trying to dictate how other classes and roles should play the game, and then the Devs think that these people speak for those players that actually DO play those roles.

Tannus15 · March 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I don't understand this complaint.

There is an outfit system, so you can wear medium and look like heavy.
There are sets like brass fortitude to get high armour value in medium armour.
There are items like the ring of the hunt to make up for the speed loss.

This may seem weird, but you can actually have more than 1 set of armour and swap it out to do different content.

I don't want to look like I wear Heavy, I want to actually wear Heavy and not have it feel miserable. I am a tank. I don't want to swap to Medium with high armor values to tank; Medium armor shouldn't even GIVE block cost reduction, that should be on Heavy armor. I don't want to have to make up the speed loss with Mythic items and lose a monster set in the process, and I shouldn't have to. Tanking is a valid playstyle. Stop touting this nonsense that if tanks want to be able to do content, we have to swap to Medium or Light armor because Heavy armor isn't a valid playstyle in your eyes. Too many people with zero experience trying to dictate how other classes and roles should play the game, and then the Devs think that these people speak for those players that actually DO play those roles.

I'm a trials tank and I still don't understand these complaints.

In content where I'm tanking the DD can just wait for me. I assumed these complaints weren't about when actually tanking, because sneak and sprint is something I don't care about when I'm tanking

Maggusemm · March 2021

Its good that heavy armor slows. In PVE it doesnt hurt and in PVP its a good rebalancing. It makes also sense - you wear something heavy - you are slow. Thats correct, nobody should complain about it.

Sangwyne · March 2021

oscarovegren wrote: »

You are wearing HEAVY armor. Why would you sprint as fast as medium or light armor builds?

Why does Medium armor reduce the cost of blocking and not Heavy? The heavier armor would absorb more of the blow. Why does Medium armor grant movement speed and not Light, the lighter and faster choice? Why would sneaking around in leather with buckles be quieter (reduced sneak detection radius) than Light armor, which is just cloth? Why on Nirn would simply dressing up in Leather increase the amount of DAMAGE that you do with melee weapons? These are all choices made for game balance, not realism, and insisting each armor fit your preconceptions in a world where magic exists and the laws of reality are different makes no sense. Each armor has a power budget allocated to it that encompasses its strengths and its weaknesses. The issue is, Medium armor doesn't have any weaknesses, only upsides, and they nerfed aspects of Heavy armor to target ease of use and the actual feel of wearing it while running around or questing in order to grant it damage reduction while immune to CC. In short, complaints about PvP had the opposite effect; Heavy armor reduces damage taken from physical attacks, the predominant type in PvP, and grants damage reduction while immune to CC, but now is much slower, harder to sneak and quest in, and increases damage taken by magical attacks, which hurts PvE tanks much more than PvP "tanks". These complaints have pigeonholed Heavy into something used to counter Medium armor users in PvP, making them even stronger there while reducing their usability in PvE. The penalties to Light and Heavy armor should be through Battle Spirit only.

Tannus15 wrote: »

I'm a trials tank and I still don't understand these complaints.

In content where I'm tanking the DD can just wait for me. I assumed these complaints weren't about when actually tanking, because sneak and sprint is something I don't care about when I'm tanking

Because other people use their characters for more than just tanking in trials. I want to actually be able to play the game on my tank character and not just dust him off anytime I want to skip the line in dungeon queues. I'll say it again; Tanking is a valid playstyle. If you don't want to do anything other than tank trials on your character, that's fine, but don't presume to dictate how others enjoy their characters because you don't feel it's a legitimate style of play.

Tannus15 · March 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I'm a trials tank and I still don't understand these complaints.

In content where I'm tanking the DD can just wait for me. I assumed these complaints weren't about when actually tanking, because sneak and sprint is something I don't care about when I'm tanking

Because other people use their characters for more than just tanking in trials. I want to actually be able to play the game on my tank character and not just dust him off anytime I want to skip the line in dungeon queues. I'll say it again; Tanking is a valid playstyle. If you don't want to do anything other than tank trials on your character, that's fine, but don't presume to dictate how others enjoy their characters because you don't feel it's a legitimate style of play.

I'm still confused.
Are you doing solo content in your full tanking setup? Do you swap out any skills or gear at all? I mean, I did vMA on my sorc in knight errant and seventh legion, not ebon and alkosh.

What's the part that you identify most with tanking? To me it's the sword and shield, not heavy armour.

Sangwyne · March 2021

Tannus15 wrote: »

I'm still confused.
Are you doing solo content in your full tanking setup? Do you swap out any skills or gear at all? I mean, I did vMA on my sorc in knight errant and seventh legion, not ebon and alkosh.

What's the part that you identify most with tanking? To me it's the sword and shield, not heavy armour.

I usually vary my setup depending on what I am doing. I have Ebon and Yolnahkriin (working on getting Perfected) for trials, Imperium/Almalexia's for Pug Dungeons where I need to keep the group alive at all costs and they stay closer to me, and then I swap to something like Crimson/Leeching for overland content. Of those, only Almalexia's is non-Heavy, and I put it on jewelry. The rest are still Heavy armor, they still grant the damage reduction associated with the type, and the last two allow me to comfortably solo world bosses and certain content without having to respec entirely. I have talked to several friends who do something similar; not outputting the absolute most damage I possibly can is fine by me, I am here to enjoy the game at my own pace rather than rush from zone to zone without reading the dialogue or experiencing the intended gameplay progression. Saying that all tanks must wear specific sets, color in the lines, and respec their build entirely or swap to a completely different armor weight just so they can do overland content defeats the purpose of the game. There are other games that have gone down that path, by limiting player choice instead of enhancing and broadening it. Guess how they did. Even WOW is experiencing problems with dungeon queues, as popular as it is, and has had to implement incentives for tanks to actually queue up, simply because tanking has become largely difficult and unrewarding due to balance changes made to appease players that inadvertently impacted tanks. I don't want to see this game go down the same sad route others have gone, and I don't want to see tanks OR healers relegated to a slave caste and brought out only for trials and vet content. I am not simply saying the act of tanking damage alone is a legitimate way to play through content, Tanks themselves are a valid playstyle.

Tannus15 · March 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I'm still confused.
Are you doing solo content in your full tanking setup? Do you swap out any skills or gear at all? I mean, I did vMA on my sorc in knight errant and seventh legion, not ebon and alkosh.

What's the part that you identify most with tanking? To me it's the sword and shield, not heavy armour.

I usually vary my setup depending on what I am doing. I have Ebon and Yolnahkriin (working on getting Perfected) for trials, Imperium/Almalexia's for Pug Dungeons where I need to keep the group alive at all costs and they stay closer to me, and then I swap to something like Crimson/Leeching for overland content. Of those, only Almalexia's is non-Heavy, and I put it on jewelry. The rest are still Heavy armor, they still grant the damage reduction associated with the type, and the last two allow me to comfortably solo world bosses and certain content without having to respec entirely. I have talked to several friends who do something similar; not outputting the absolute most damage I possibly can is fine by me, I am here to enjoy the game at my own pace rather than rush from zone to zone without reading the dialogue or experiencing the intended gameplay progression. Saying that all tanks must wear specific sets, color in the lines, and respec their build entirely or swap to a completely different armor weight just so they can do overland content defeats the purpose of the game. There are other games that have gone down that path, by limiting player choice instead of enhancing and broadening it. Guess how they did. Even WOW is experiencing problems with dungeon queues, as popular as it is, and has had to implement incentives for tanks to actually queue up, simply because tanking has become largely difficult and unrewarding due to balance changes made to appease players that inadvertently impacted tanks. I don't want to see this game go down the same sad route others have gone, and I don't want to see tanks OR healers relegated to a slave caste and brought out only for trials and vet content. I am not simply saying the act of tanking damage alone is a legitimate way to play through content, Tanks themselves are a valid playstyle.

You keep putting that last bit in bold as though i'm arguing with that, I'm really not. I'm trying to understand what you MEAN by it.

Do you mean low damage, self healing builds where you wear down world bosses? I don't see how the changes they are making are going to have any impact on the sets you run and how you play.
Can you define what you are losing with these changes and what you can do on live that you won't be able to do after the update?

Taken with the CP changes you've going to have faster out of combat move speed than currently on live, stam or mag or both regen when something dies, doing direct damage heals you, it's entirely up to you how you want to setup your build.

Sangwyne · March 2021

Tannus15 wrote: »

You keep putting that last bit in bold as though i'm arguing with that, I'm really not. I'm trying to understand what you MEAN by it.

Do you mean low damage, self healing builds where you wear down world bosses? I don't see how the changes they are making are going to have any impact on the sets you run and how you play.
Can you define what you are losing with these changes and what you can do on live that you won't be able to do after the update?

Taken with the CP changes you've going to have faster out of combat move speed than currently on live, stam or mag or both regen when something dies, doing direct damage heals you, it's entirely up to you how you want to setup your build.

Heavy armor was penalized specifically in regards to speed with the changes, along with detection radius and roll dodge cost, all of which affect playstyle. 70% increased detection radius renders sneak all but impossible for certain content. The CP changes go a long ways towards fixing it but do not eliminate the issue entirely; Steed's Blessing still needs to be slotted for the speed bonus, taking up potential spots, and they already nerfed it from 50% down to 20% bonus speed. If you are curious as to what other changes I am referring to, feel free to read https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561210/pts-changes-aimed-at-pvp-will-indirectly-hurt-pve-tanking-and-queue-times/p1. I don't know the official ZOS stance on necroing (although they clearly approve of Necromancers themselves given how busted they made the class

), so comment at your own risk, but I think the post outlines the issues with tanking next patch in sufficient detail (it better, took me long enough to write it up). Enjoy.

Tannus15 · March 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

You keep putting that last bit in bold as though i'm arguing with that, I'm really not. I'm trying to understand what you MEAN by it.

Do you mean low damage, self healing builds where you wear down world bosses? I don't see how the changes they are making are going to have any impact on the sets you run and how you play.
Can you define what you are losing with these changes and what you can do on live that you won't be able to do after the update?

Taken with the CP changes you've going to have faster out of combat move speed than currently on live, stam or mag or both regen when something dies, doing direct damage heals you, it's entirely up to you how you want to setup your build.

Heavy armor was penalized specifically in regards to speed with the changes, along with detection radius and roll dodge cost, all of which affect playstyle. 70% increased detection radius renders sneak all but impossible for certain content. The CP changes go a long ways towards fixing it but do not eliminate the issue entirely; Steed's Blessing still needs to be slotted for the speed bonus, taking up potential spots, and they already nerfed it from 50% down to 20% bonus speed. If you are curious as to what other changes I am referring to, feel free to read https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561210/pts-changes-aimed-at-pvp-will-indirectly-hurt-pve-tanking-and-queue-times/p1. I don't know the official ZOS stance on necroing (although they clearly approve of Necromancers themselves given how busted they made the class ), so comment at your own risk, but I think the post outlines the issues with tanking next patch in sufficient detail (it better, took me long enough to write it up). Enjoy.

Yeah, I read that when you posted it and jumped into PTS, threw on some CP and went to have a play with Olms and it didn't feel like I was suffering compared to live. I try to do some content on the PTS to get a feel for how things are changed.

I really don't understand the detection radius issue, and in your write up it's a minor thing, but here you seem to be making a bigger deal out of it. From your earlier post:

On PTS, Heavy armor reduces movement speed of Sprint by 1% per piece and increases detection radius while sneaking by 10% per piece. Thematic and not a concern, although it really does feel like adding insult to injury at this point.

I'm still struggling to understand why you wouldn't keep a medium set of night's silence in your pack for stealth content, i know i do for my tank main, as well as 3pc night terror. I guess you could craft a set of heavy night silence, but to what end? Literally the only stealth content I can think of where you wouldn't do this is the indrick boss in vMoS.
This isn't hard to do and i don't see how it's invalidating your play style.

again, to quote you on roll dodging, which here you are calling a big deal:

On PTS, Heavy armor increases the cost of roll dodging by 3% per piece. I actually agree wholeheartedly with this change, as it makes sense from both a mechanical and thematic perspective and serves to balance heavy armor better against the other types both in PvE and PvP, along with making the Well-Fitted trait a more viable choice compared to Sturdy. Still a nerf.

Tanking in a group looks to be totally fine next patch, especially if you have a healer, which I prefer over 3dd 1tank groups anyway.

For your solo content I really don't understand the problem is and you don't seem to want to tell me what about your current setup won't work anymore other than you don't want to have a stealth gameplay setup.

Sangwyne · March 2021

Tannus15 wrote: »

Yeah, I read that when you posted it and jumped into PTS, threw on some CP and went to have a play with Olms and it didn't feel like I was suffering compared to live. I try to do some content on the PTS to get a feel for how things are changed.

Experimenting on the PTS is all well and good, but unfortunately a lot of issues and bugs tend to slip through, as there's simply far more people playing on live. It's the same in any game with a public test environment and a large, active community; in League of Legends for example, which has fairly regular 2 week PBE cycles, many glaring issues go unnoticed and then hit Live where they immediately blow up and are instantly recognized. It's caused more than one complaint about how the PBE in that game seems to serve no purpose. And RIOT has far more experience balancing games for multiplayer PvP than ZOS; the simple fact of the matter is that the PTS is useful for catching obvious bugs, but pretty terrible at determining shifts in the meta or which items/skills/sets/classes are unbalanced relative to others.

Tannus15 wrote: »

I really don't understand the detection radius issue, and in your write up it's a minor thing, but here you seem to be making a bigger deal out of it. From your earlier post:

On PTS, Heavy armor reduces movement speed of Sprint by 1% per piece and increases detection radius while sneaking by 10% per piece. Thematic and not a concern, although it really does feel like adding insult to injury at this point.

I'm still struggling to understand why you wouldn't keep a medium set of night's silence in your pack for stealth content, i know i do for my tank main, as well as 3pc night terror. I guess you could craft a set of heavy night silence, but to what end? Literally the only stealth content I can think of where you wouldn't do this is the indrick boss in vMoS.
This isn't hard to do and i don't see how it's invalidating your play style.

Certainly, every change by itself may seem rather minor, but when compounded upon themselves and taken as a whole, they spell disaster. You'll notice that footnote I made regarding sprint/sneak lumped two distinct nerfs into the same bulletpoint as one of SEVEN nerfs to tanks just in the category of Heavy armor passives alone, and there were 2 other entire categories of nerfs, each with 7 bulletpoints! The fact that I was even ABLE to spend 2833 words on just citing the nerfs to tanks alone should tell you there was more going on, and it's a bit deceptive to take that quote out of context and frame it by itself. Regarding your last few sentences; again, you shouldn't be required to wear specific sets for overland content. Practically anything goes in overland, it's intended to be an easier option that allows for roleplayers, lore enthusiasts, and more casual players to enjoy the game at their leisure. Yes, wearing medium sets specifically geared around stealth might be optimal, but Heavy armor should at least be VIABLE in overland content of all places. And it's not. 70% is a massive increase in area, and depending on whether they calculate it as an increase to radius or area, it could actually be much worse than it appears. I agree that, sure, maybe if there were "sneak trials" or "vet stealth missions" or something that absolutely pushed your Assassin's Creed abilities to the limit, then yes, Medium armor would be a necessity, but we're literally talking Story Zones here, Vvardenfell Main Questlines, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, etc. - Overland content. Imagine closing off an entire DLC (let alone several as with Heavy) to Medium armor players by saying that since their armor isn't geared towards the sustain or use of Magicka like Heavy (Constitution and Revitalize passives) or Light, that they cannot participate in Mages Guild or Psijic order quests until they respec their build and change armor. Please, by all means, don't just try out Heavy armor in trials on the PTS, try the 70% increased area out in the multiple Story quests throughout Vvardenfell where you have to infiltrate a house without being seen by the guards. Let me know how it goes.

Tannus15 wrote: »

again, to quote you on roll dodging, which here you are calling a big deal:

On PTS, Heavy armor increases the cost of roll dodging by 3% per piece. I actually agree wholeheartedly with this change, as it makes sense from both a mechanical and thematic perspective and serves to balance heavy armor better against the other types both in PvE and PvP, along with making the Well-Fitted trait a more viable choice compared to Sturdy. Still a nerf.

Tanking in a group looks to be totally fine next patch, especially if you have a healer, which I prefer over 3dd 1tank groups anyway.

For your solo content I really don't understand the problem is and you don't seem to want to tell me what about your current setup won't work anymore other than you don't want to have a stealth gameplay setup.

I like the roll dodge nerf, it isn't too excessive, it's realistic, it's offset by wearing more pieces with Well-Fitted, and makes sense from a balance perspective. Like I said though, it's still a nerf, especially considering that Tumbling was already nerfed, meaning that roll dodge costs as a whole are going up, and Heavy armor rolls in particular are going up by multiple factors. And when taken with the other nerfs... well, I hope you see my point.

ExistingRug61 · March 2021

I feel like part of this problem is that the armours provide a combination of benefits/penalties that have varying impacts depending on whether you are or are not in combat. This leads to problems where an armour type might be too strong in combat and yet have frustrating downsides when not in combat.

Heavy is an example of this. All of its benefits are in combat only, but have been balanced with penalties that are have a mixture of in and out of combat effects. This means that once out of combat, heavy is basically only penalising you. Which is especially problematic for overland.
It promotes the idea of swapping armour setups for when you are or are not in combat, which would be a silly amount of micromanagement.

In a way, light armour is the reverse - it has a benefit that is useful out of combat (sneak speed), but all its penalties are in combat penalties. This means that once you are in combat the balance is off for the negative, as you no longer get full value of the benefits.

This inevitably leads to the sort of complaints we have heard about the armour types with the arguments of "its too powerful in this gameplay mode" but also at the same time "its annoyingly nerfed in this other gameplay mode".

The only solution to this is if the benefits and penalties get looked at/balanced for both in combat and out of combat.
So if an armour type has an out of combat only benefit, this should be balanced with an out of combat only penalty, and vice versa.

Take for example heavy's sneak radius penalty. Thematic sure, but irrelevant once in combat so doesn't actually do anything to balance heavy in combat. Leading to potential for heavy to be too strong in combat like we hear from PvPers if this penalty is used to balance a combat benefit.

Or the sprint speed penalties - Out of combat, is there really a point to this apart from annoyance?
Couldn't it be a reduction in sprint speed while in combat only?
Or maybe it could even be a general speed reduction while in combat only (not just sprint). This would actually provide more of a downside in PvP, where mobility is very important, while hopefully not being quite as annoying in PvE (where I assume tanks don't run around in combat quite as much, happy to be corrected if this assumption is wrong though). [caveat: stuck in combat bug would need fixing for these sort of things though]

As an aside, I don't think a damage penalty would be the best idea either - the damage differential should come from the fact that medium and light have damage bonuses. The issue with high damage heavy builds in PvP is a symptom of other issues in my opinion, and a damage penalty on heavy would just be a bandaid with negative impacts for PvE.
Generally speaking, the new passives seem to be focused on mitigation and core combat defence abilities, and I think it best the remain focused on those areas with balance coming from the relative strength of these for each armour type, ie: general mitigation vs conditional/specific mitigation vs mobility vs evasion.

Urzigurumash · March 2021

Regarding PvP balance, I don't quite understand how it would be balanced that a bow user and a maul user would both be optimized in all leather armor. More offensive potential could be put into 7 medium builds for bow users if that same offensive potential was impossible to expend in a melee build before your HP is run out. If 7 medium has to provide sufficient defense to make melee builds work, it won't provide sufficient offense to make ranged builds work, unless ranged builds are imbalanced in their offensive potential.

Ratzkifal · March 2021

These changes were made because they are "realistic" and the developers like them. They haven't been actively in demand and "nerf heavy armor" hasn't been said by pvpers in a long time.

In principle I agree with different armor weights being intrinsically different from each other, passives aside, but a lot of the penalties are just not fun. A penalty to stealth might make sense in principle but it really screws with players who want to "play the way you like". I've been doing justice content on my tank for quite some time and I tested these changes on PTS. NPCs definitely notice you earlier, even when using the new stealth CP, which sucks.

I also don't agree with heavy armor making you more vulnerable to magic. I can't remember the name of the other popular franchise where this was the case, but this is the Elder Scrolls. People who say "but metal can be heated and conducts electricity" need to consider what would happen to someone who gets hit by fire or lightning and is just wearing cloth. Heavy armor is still a layer of heavy protection that mitigates the horrible things fire and lightning would do to an unprotected person, even if it cannot grant immunity.

The rock-paper-scissors effect that ZOS said they wanted to achieve won't happen either.
In theory light beats heavy, and heavy beats medium, and medium beats light.
In reality everyone is running heavy or medium and some people will be running magicka setups on heavy armor to beat the other heavy armor users. Light armor gets beaten by stamina setups regardless if they wear medium or heavy simply because light does not offer enough protection and damage type is independant of armor weight.
So it actually looks more like this.
Light beats light, because of the reduced magic damage taken and light armor being somewhat exclusive to magicka setups. Medium beats light because of the increased physical damage taken and medium armor being somewhat exclusive to physical setups.
Heavy armor beats medium because of the reduced physical damage taken and it also beats light because you can run a stamina setup with heavy armor and you still have a higher resistance value than the light armor user.
If they want rock-paper-scissors they should look back at how PvP was in the Imperial City patch. When Sorcs countered Templars, Templars countered Nightblades, Nightblades and DKs countered Sorcs. I believe there were reasons we got rid of that meta, so maybe ZOS should ask themselves if it's a good thing to try and return to rock-paper-scissor logic.

They really need to come up with different penalties and benefits because the ones they propose now kind of suck at what they are meant to do and aren't really fun either.

Daemonai · March 2021

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

[snip]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Waffennacht · March 2021

Wanting to tank and wanting to be in stealth running around are the antithesis of each other

Sangwyne · March 2021

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

[snip]

Hahaha, I love it. The meme, the quote, it's perfect. I'll admit, it does get tiring seeing all these posts cropping up blaming Heavy armor and "tanks" in PvP without realizing that actual tanks in PvE or PvP have nothing whatsoever to do with it; actual PvP tanks are grouping up with teammates and chaining, CCing, or drawing aggro from enemies while wearing sets like Ebon, Beckoning Steel, Wizard's Riposte, etc, they are not the same as those in full Proc sets spamming dizzying swing. The only thing these nerfs to Heavy armor will accomplish will be to shift the meta from Stamina Wardens in Heavy armor Proc sets, abusing Malacath and Balorgh to burst with their ultimate, to Stamina Wardens in Medium armor Proc sets, abusing Malacath and Balorgh to burst with their ultimate. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

milllaurie · March 2021

And again pvp sets getting nerfs because of pve players. Shall we talk about seventh legion?
[snip] would you check new cp system? Have you noticed everyone gets 5k hp now? Maybe you can turn that into stam? Have you noticed an extra 1k weapon damage incomming? Have you seen the cp that gives you resources back when enemies die?
And, most importantly, have you even logged on to the pts to check how it affects your gameplay at all?

[edited for baiting]

DreadDaedroth · March 2021

milllaurie wrote: »

And again pvp sets getting nerfs because of pve players. Shall we talk about seventh legion?
[snip] would you check new cp system? Have you noticed everyone gets 5k hp now? Maybe you can turn that into stam? Have you noticed an extra 1k weapon damage incomming? Have you seen the cp that gives you resources back when enemies die?
And, most importantly, have you even logged on to the pts to check how it affects your gameplay at all?

All heavy armour damage sets like seventh Legion, Ravager, veiled heritance were nerfed due pvp 😂

OlumoGarbag · March 2021

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

[snip]

Most of these posts wouldn't exist if they balanced damage/healing sources that don't scale with your max stats.
Heavy Armor is overloaded in PvP BC you can have insane damage and healing without the need to wear light or medium.

If all those sources of damage would be balanced, literally no one would ever complain about a heavy armor player in PvP, since they would deal significantly less damage then a light/medium glass canon build. ATM the damage is almost the same.

Sangwyne · March 2021

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Most of these posts wouldn't exist if they balanced damage/healing sources that don't scale with your max stats.
Heavy Armor is overloaded in PvP BC you can have insane damage and healing without the need to wear light or medium.

If all those sources of damage would be balanced, literally no one would ever complain about a heavy armor player in PvP, since they would deal significantly less damage then a light/medium glass canon build. ATM the damage is almost the same.

Oh? And where are you getting this "insane damage" from Heavy armor? Heavy armor has zero damage boosting passives whatsoever (By Shor, if you try to say 3% Bash damage per piece counts, I will slap Bash you). Most of your comment deals with sources of damage being unbalanced, but Heavy armor isn't a source of damage. Malacath is. Stop using Heavy armor as a scapegoat when we all know what the real issue is; these cries to nerf Heavy armor have accomplished nothing except gutting tanks in PvE.