Thanks for ruining heavy armor

Elo106

Sangwyne wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

All pre-buffing is only ever done in pve. Nobody prebuffs in pvp.

Stygian was a pve nerf. It falls under the same pre-buff nerf. Seventh Legion was a pre-buff nerf.

It is pretty obvious you have never pvp'd before, nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets

Bombers, gankers, and many other types of players in PvP use pre-buff sets, these are literally names for entire archetypes of players whose only goal it is to pre-buff as much as possible before unloading as much damage as possible in a single rotation. Saying "noone" pre-buffs in PvP makes me think that either we haven't played the same game, or perhaps I've simply had a little bit more experience dealing with those types of players in recent memory. Either way, claiming I've never played PvP and "nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets" contributes nothing to the discussion; obviously some people were abusing them this way, or they would not have been changed.

I think there might be confusion caused by the term pre-buff. The dev notes are using pre-buff in a context of equiping sets like seventh, clever alchemist and elfbane that you proc before combat, change sets with an addon and than enter combat.

This is not done in pvp as the environment is too chaotic, one detection and your entire bomb is ruined.

PvP pre-buff by using skills before entering combat, building ultimate, stacking damage buffs and timing skills to damage large groups of people at the same time.

The patch notes were concerned with the set swapping pre-buff that people used in trials and other pve environments to push leaderboards. EG: using elfbane, casting destro ultimate and swapping out elfbane again before the damage pulls them in combat.

Why they changed sets due to this is beyond me, they could have added a short damage debuff when you unequip/reequip weapons/gear and that would have solved the issue without messing with so many sets.

NordSwordnBoard

Vizirith wrote: »

All pre-buffing is only ever done in pve. Nobody prebuffs in pvp. The only very theoretical situation would be in duels and a bomber. But people in duels would obviously see what you are doing and never duel you again. Bombers are so very niche and most I've seen don't prebuff anyway.

Stygian was a pve nerf. It falls under the same pre-buff nerf. Seventh Legion was a pre-buff nerf.

It is pretty obvious you have never pvp'd before, nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets what with staying in combat and randomly entering it. I can't tell you how many times I've had rapids stuck on my bar because I randomly entered combat and never got out. Pre-buffing sets would end up being the main sets you'd enter fights with around 1/3rd the time, as you'd enter combat with them on. Longer pvp fights can last over an hour. Stygian and seventh legion would be able to pre-buff you for 0.4% of the duration of an hour fight, what an amazingly op mechanic.

Thank you for pointing this out. On console, there's very little chance anybody is pre buffing and then switching sets without an add on to streamline the process. In PvP, this would be almost impossible due to the constant "in combat" state that persists and plagues you. You'd end up half dressed for battle most of the time lol. The gear switching for us is manual only.

Sangwyne

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Unless you live under a rock you know what prebuff means. You're purposely being pedantic. It was described in previous patch notes what they meant by "prebuff" and where it was used when clever alchemist etc... Got the same treatment.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

There is no point arguing with him. He knows what prebuff sets are, when and why they are primarily used. He is using recent patch notes to be pedantic, even though zos have previously described when prebuffing happens and why they feel the adjustment is necessary.

I am aware of "pre-buffing" in the context of player terminology, yes, but disagree with your statement that it is the same context used by ZOS rather than a catch-all term for "sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them" as ZOS has just defined them. Just curious, but can anyone here point to a single instance, PTS patch notes, developer comment, or official statement where ZOS has specifically linked "pre-buffing" to progression groups in trials? Not your personal definition of pre-buffing, not a random 1-page thread on the forums, not an article on a third-party site, but an actual developer comment that inextricably links their definition of "pre-buffing" to PvE score pushing groups in trials alone? Because from everything I can see, these changes, especially in the context of the Solar Flare and Snipe nerfs, were made to reduce ability to nova players from stealth in PvP, with abuse in trials maybe as an afterthought.

And regarding the Clever Alchemist nerf, maybe you should have used a different example:

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.

Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

I didn't realize trial groups used pre-buffing sets to "one-shot players from stealth". ZOS also remarks in the same comment that it was "only being used" to do so, meaning it had absolutely nothing to do with trial groups or anything outside of PvP alone. And notice that they literally say that it was being used by players to switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus (where have we heard that before?), which people are saying is apparently "impossible" in PvP because of the in-combat state (although I agree that needs to be addressed).

This thread was created to discuss how Heavy armor has been specifically nerfed in PvE due to players exploiting it with Malacath in PvP, and has since been derailed and hijacked by players claiming that PvE is at fault for something unrelated. And then not realizing that what ZOS means by "pre-buffing" and what they understand/want to believe it means are two completely different things. I would change my tune in a heartbeat and eat a crow pie if there were a shred of evidence to support their argument, but there isn't; and yet dozens of people stand firmly convinced that the whopping three and a half "score pushing cheese mongers" in PvE are somehow to blame for getting these sets nerfed, when we have literal Developer Comments stating that pre-buffing sets were "only being used to one-shot players from stealth". Until someone can provide proof that these changes were implemented because of PvE, I will leave you all with this.

Kurat wrote: »

No one uses seventh legion in pve lmao
All nerfs in this game, including these heavy armor ones are because of PVPers whining.

Tannus15

@Sangwyne I know some groups were using Arkasis’s Genius to gain ult before pulls.

Araneae6537

What’s really absurd is that light and heavy armor will actually reduce your resistance to physical and magical attacks, respectively. O.o

Vizirith

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Unless you live under a rock you know what prebuff means. You're purposely being pedantic. It was described in previous patch notes what they meant by "prebuff" and where it was used when clever alchemist etc... Got the same treatment.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

There is no point arguing with him. He knows what prebuff sets are, when and why they are primarily used. He is using recent patch notes to be pedantic, even though zos have previously described when prebuffing happens and why they feel the adjustment is necessary.

I am aware of "pre-buffing" in the context of player terminology, yes, but disagree with your statement that it is the same context used by ZOS rather than a catch-all term for "sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them" as ZOS has just defined them. Just curious, but can anyone here point to a single instance, PTS patch notes, developer comment, or official statement where ZOS has specifically linked "pre-buffing" to progression groups in trials? Not your personal definition of pre-buffing, not a random 1-page thread on the forums, not an article on a third-party site, but an actual developer comment that inextricably links their definition of "pre-buffing" to PvE score pushing groups in trials alone? Because from everything I can see, these changes, especially in the context of the Solar Flare and Snipe nerfs, were made to reduce ability to nova players from stealth in PvP, with abuse in trials maybe as an afterthought.

And regarding the Clever Alchemist nerf, maybe you should have used a different example:

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.

Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

I didn't realize trial groups used pre-buffing sets to "one-shot players from stealth". ZOS also remarks in the same comment that it was "only being used" to do so, meaning it had absolutely nothing to do with trial groups or anything outside of PvP alone. And notice that they literally say that it was being used by players to switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus (where have we heard that before?), which people are saying is apparently "impossible" in PvP because of the in-combat state (although I agree that needs to be addressed).

This thread was created to discuss how Heavy armor has been specifically nerfed in PvE due to players exploiting it with Malacath in PvP, and has since been derailed and hijacked by players claiming that PvE is at fault for something unrelated. And then not realizing that what ZOS means by "pre-buffing" and what they understand/want to believe it means are two completely different things. I would change my tune in a heartbeat and eat a crow pie if there were a shred of evidence to support their argument, but there isn't; and yet dozens of people stand firmly convinced that the whopping three and a half "score pushing cheese mongers" in PvE are somehow to blame for getting these sets nerfed, when we have literal Developer Comments stating that pre-buffing sets were "only being used to one-shot players from stealth". Until someone can provide proof that these changes were implemented because of PvE, I will leave you all with this.

Kurat wrote: »

No one uses seventh legion in pve lmao
All nerfs in this game, including these heavy armor ones are because of PVPers whining.

Of the 17 sets that were directly affected by the nerf to pre-buffing 10 serve absolutely no purpose in pvp at all and in some cases would lower your damage and make you less effective. All 17 directly increase your effectiveness in pve.

And your argument that because the patch notes include nerfs to abilities in pvp and therefore everything in the patch is directly related to pvp doesn't make much sense or logic. Did you see the new furnishings? Because clearly all the rest of the patch notes should therefore be taken in context of house decorators.

Sangwyne

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Sangwyne I know some groups were using Arkasis’s Genius to gain ult before pulls.

That's a fair point, I'll give you that. And certainly, both the meta in both PvE and PvP has directly contributed to aspects of the other getting nerfed several times in the past, I just don't think it's fair to try and pin all these changes on PvE when that's clearly not the case this time and this thread was created specifically by OP to discuss how PvP had gotten tanks in Heavy armor nerfed. Again.

Vizirith wrote: »

Of the 17 sets that were directly affected by the nerf to pre-buffing 10 serve absolutely no purpose in pvp at all and in some cases would lower your damage and make you less effective. All 17 directly increase your effectiveness in pve.

And your argument that because the patch notes include nerfs to abilities in pvp and therefore everything in the patch is directly related to pvp doesn't make much sense or logic. Did you see the new furnishings? Because clearly all the rest of the patch notes should therefore be taken in context of house decorators.

I don't know where you got 17, I'm seeing 18 pre-buff sets, and don't forget that sets like Alessia's and DWG were nerfed, Alessia's because of werewolves, looks like DWG was clearly too strong in zergs and was nerfed accordingly. Of the 18, only the 4 Halls of Fabrication sets and Tooth of Lokkestiiz had PvE-exclusive bonuses, the other 13 were perfectly viable pre-buff sets for PvP. Armor Master gave resistances and 5% Max health, far more useful in PvP than to DPS in trials, Meritorious Service gave resistances and required a Support ability to be used, Moon Dancer gave 474 Spell damage or Magicka recovery for 20s, Shroud of the Lich gave Magicka recovery (doesn't look to me like the greatest pre-buff set, but w/e), Spectre's Eye gave 30s of Major Evasion (definitely more useful in PvP), Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver gave damage to Light/Heavy attacks, Balorgh damage stats on ultimate, Stygian was quite clearly nerfed for gank builds in PvP, Elf-Bane was probably only used on destro ult (probably better suited to PvE), Jorvuld's Guidance could easily have been used in PvP, Seventh Legion was used by far more in PvP than PvE, and Senche's Bite activated on roll dodge and probably would have been great on Bosmer Nightblade bow gank builds. And context is important when trying to understand the Developer's intentions; we can clearly see that burst was an issue in their mind, as they nerfed Solar Flare and Snipe, which is pretty much only used in PvP to reduce the amount of burst damage they were capable of outputting, and likely nerfed these "sets than retained their effect after being activated and unequipped" in order to reduce burst at the start of fights (i.e. in PvP) as well. Furnishings have no effect on the meta, but the total burst available through combat sources does, and I was hoping you'd be able to understand that.

milllaurie

Sangwyne wrote: »

It's abundantly clear that ZOS specifically targeted burst, preemptive buffing, players getting a small boost for a small duration of time before entering combat, whatever you want to call it, but the fact remains those strategies remain of limited use in trial and dungeon environments and considerably more use in PvP. ZOS has gone after gankers, Nightblades, and one-shots in PvP before, with nerfs to Nightblade Weapon/Spell damage while flanking specifically to cut down on their ability to burst from stealth and 100-0 their targets with no counterplay.

Yet vateshran 2-hander exists that enables one shot combos on any stam class. Also they gave stamsorcs crystal weapon just now. Stamdens can 1 shot people since Morrowind.
I can 1 shot sub-30k hp players on my stamsorc with proc sets disabled in Cyrodiil. I started collecting footage for a vid just now.
Necros can 1-shot, wardens can 1-shot, stamsorcs can 1-shot, yet nbs must gank in duos now. Of course you would know all of this if you were actually pvping.

Another point about pre-buffing in pvp: if wind blows the wrong way, if an npc as much as farts in your general direction or if the nine gods are in a bad mood you get in combat state. And you stay there as long as the Cyro gods wish you to. As we all know you get stuck in the gear you have equipped until you leave the combat state. Countless times a day people enter combat with rapids equipped instead of a neccessary skill because combat winds were blowing into that unlucky player's direction. Of course you would know how unpredictable the combat state is if you were actually pvping.

BlueRaven

I am still a bit baffled about why pve is being blamed for these armor changes. If the sets were over performing in dungeons and trials but not pvp, wouldn’t it be simpler to just change the dungeon or trial itself?

Making bosses (presumably on vet) hit harder, or have more hp to counter act these buffs seems much more to the point.

In pvp that would be a much trickier change, wouldn’t it? Do they allow players to take less damage from other players? Give everyone more hp? It seems you have to rebalance the weapons and armor.

I feel, it is because of this that these changes were obviously made with pvp in mind. And once again pve tanks, the least played yet most in demand role, gets unfairly punished.

Vizirith

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Sangwyne I know some groups were using Arkasis’s Genius to gain ult before pulls.

That's a fair point, I'll give you that. And certainly, both the meta in both PvE and PvP has directly contributed to aspects of the other getting nerfed several times in the past, I just don't think it's fair to try and pin all these changes on PvE when that's clearly not the case this time and this thread was created specifically by OP to discuss how PvP had gotten tanks in Heavy armor nerfed. Again.

Vizirith wrote: »

Of the 17 sets that were directly affected by the nerf to pre-buffing 10 serve absolutely no purpose in pvp at all and in some cases would lower your damage and make you less effective. All 17 directly increase your effectiveness in pve.

And your argument that because the patch notes include nerfs to abilities in pvp and therefore everything in the patch is directly related to pvp doesn't make much sense or logic. Did you see the new furnishings? Because clearly all the rest of the patch notes should therefore be taken in context of house decorators.

I don't know where you got 17, I'm seeing 18 pre-buff sets, and don't forget that sets like Alessia's and DWG were nerfed, Alessia's because of werewolves, looks like DWG was clearly too strong in zergs and was nerfed accordingly. Of the 18, only the 4 Halls of Fabrication sets and Tooth of Lokkestiiz had PvE-exclusive bonuses, the other 13 were perfectly viable pre-buff sets for PvP. Armor Master gave resistances and 5% Max health, far more useful in PvP than to DPS in trials, Meritorious Service gave resistances and required a Support ability to be used, Moon Dancer gave 474 Spell damage or Magicka recovery for 20s, Shroud of the Lich gave Magicka recovery (doesn't look to me like the greatest pre-buff set, but w/e), Spectre's Eye gave 30s of Major Evasion (definitely more useful in PvP), Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver gave damage to Light/Heavy attacks, Balorgh damage stats on ultimate, Stygian was quite clearly nerfed for gank builds in PvP, Elf-Bane was probably only used on destro ult (probably better suited to PvE), Jorvuld's Guidance could easily have been used in PvP, Seventh Legion was used by far more in PvP than PvE, and Senche's Bite activated on roll dodge and probably would have been great on Bosmer Nightblade bow gank builds. And context is important when trying to understand the Developer's intentions; we can clearly see that burst was an issue in their mind, as they nerfed Solar Flare and Snipe, which is pretty much only used in PvP to reduce the amount of burst damage they were capable of outputting, and likely nerfed these "sets than retained their effect after being activated and unequipped" in order to reduce burst at the start of fights (i.e. in PvP) as well. Furnishings have no effect on the meta, but the total burst available through combat sources does, and I was hoping you'd be able to understand that.

PTS v6.3.0
These sets now require you to be in combat for their 5-piece bonuses to activate:
All Halls of Fabrication unique sets
Armor Master
Meritorious Service
Moon Dancer
Shroud of the Lich
Spectre’s Eye
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver
These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian

PTS 6.3.2
In accordance with the recent change to item sets to not be usable while outside of combat to be manipulated as "pre-buff" sets, the following sets now only grant their effects/activate while in combat:
Elf Bane
Jorvuld's Guidance
Seventh Legion

So 17 afaik.

All Halls of Fabrication unique sets- PVE Only, 5 piece buffs only affect pve
Armor Master- Yes can be used in pvp, but lasts 10 secs. Factoring engagement time/gear and ability swap, closer to 5 secs.
Meritorious Service- Yes
Moon Dancer- Requires synergy use, which would not only remove you from stealth but requires another person to be running a non-target necessary synergy.
Shroud of the Lich- You start the fight with 33% mag, good luck killing anybody decent.
Spectre’s Eye- Yes
Tooth of Lokkestiiz- PVE only
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver- Yes
Balorgh- Requires loss of ult for 12 sec buff, factoring in engagement time and gear addon swap time, maybe 7ish secs.
Stygian- Yes
Elf Bane- Only with fire destro ult, pre-buffing would be clunky as all hell for very little gain, and requires you to open with fire destro ult (not lightning)
Jorvuld's Guidance- Not good for solo, most classes don't have easy access to worthwhile buffs. Maybe on a warden who slots enchanted growth and doesn't run forward momentum.
Seventh Legion- Yes

So 10 sets that are pretty much useless in pvp.

Again the only way to pre-buff would be if you are in stealth, with a clear line of sight of incoming enemies with plenty of time to pre-buff before engaging. You can't be anywhere near a keep or resource. You can't be anywhere near other allied players fighting. You can't be anywhere near multiple enemies. You have to very close to the path players will be coming, ie bridges or milegates. Bridges don't give you good visual range and scope to be able to have enough time to pre-buff effectively making it high risk low reward, and a guaranteed death if the addon doesn't complete the gear change before flagged for combat where you potentially don't have any full gear set on.

So yes, you can pre-buff in pvp for a ridiculously high risk for low reward. You could also just be a ganker, run titanborn and jump down from a bridge to engage at less than 50% health. After going 1 for 10 maybe you'll rethink it. And like I said before:

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

BlueRaven

Vizirith wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Sangwyne I know some groups were using Arkasis’s Genius to gain ult before pulls.

That's a fair point, I'll give you that. And certainly, both the meta in both PvE and PvP has directly contributed to aspects of the other getting nerfed several times in the past, I just don't think it's fair to try and pin all these changes on PvE when that's clearly not the case this time and this thread was created specifically by OP to discuss how PvP had gotten tanks in Heavy armor nerfed. Again.

Vizirith wrote: »

Of the 17 sets that were directly affected by the nerf to pre-buffing 10 serve absolutely no purpose in pvp at all and in some cases would lower your damage and make you less effective. All 17 directly increase your effectiveness in pve.

And your argument that because the patch notes include nerfs to abilities in pvp and therefore everything in the patch is directly related to pvp doesn't make much sense or logic. Did you see the new furnishings? Because clearly all the rest of the patch notes should therefore be taken in context of house decorators.

I don't know where you got 17, I'm seeing 18 pre-buff sets, and don't forget that sets like Alessia's and DWG were nerfed, Alessia's because of werewolves, looks like DWG was clearly too strong in zergs and was nerfed accordingly. Of the 18, only the 4 Halls of Fabrication sets and Tooth of Lokkestiiz had PvE-exclusive bonuses, the other 13 were perfectly viable pre-buff sets for PvP. Armor Master gave resistances and 5% Max health, far more useful in PvP than to DPS in trials, Meritorious Service gave resistances and required a Support ability to be used, Moon Dancer gave 474 Spell damage or Magicka recovery for 20s, Shroud of the Lich gave Magicka recovery (doesn't look to me like the greatest pre-buff set, but w/e), Spectre's Eye gave 30s of Major Evasion (definitely more useful in PvP), Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver gave damage to Light/Heavy attacks, Balorgh damage stats on ultimate, Stygian was quite clearly nerfed for gank builds in PvP, Elf-Bane was probably only used on destro ult (probably better suited to PvE), Jorvuld's Guidance could easily have been used in PvP, Seventh Legion was used by far more in PvP than PvE, and Senche's Bite activated on roll dodge and probably would have been great on Bosmer Nightblade bow gank builds. And context is important when trying to understand the Developer's intentions; we can clearly see that burst was an issue in their mind, as they nerfed Solar Flare and Snipe, which is pretty much only used in PvP to reduce the amount of burst damage they were capable of outputting, and likely nerfed these "sets than retained their effect after being activated and unequipped" in order to reduce burst at the start of fights (i.e. in PvP) as well. Furnishings have no effect on the meta, but the total burst available through combat sources does, and I was hoping you'd be able to understand that.

PTS v6.3.0
These sets now require you to be in combat for their 5-piece bonuses to activate:
All Halls of Fabrication unique sets
Armor Master
Meritorious Service
Moon Dancer
Shroud of the Lich
Spectre’s Eye
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver
These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian

PTS 6.3.2
In accordance with the recent change to item sets to not be usable while outside of combat to be manipulated as "pre-buff" sets, the following sets now only grant their effects/activate while in combat:
Elf Bane
Jorvuld's Guidance
Seventh Legion

So 17 afaik.

All Halls of Fabrication unique sets- PVE Only, 5 piece buffs only affect pve
Armor Master- Yes can be used in pvp, but lasts 10 secs. Factoring engagement time/gear and ability swap, closer to 5 secs.
Meritorious Service- Yes
Moon Dancer- Requires synergy use, which would not only remove you from stealth but requires another person to be running a non-target necessary synergy.
Shroud of the Lich- You start the fight with 33% mag, good luck killing anybody decent.
Spectre’s Eye- Yes
Tooth of Lokkestiiz- PVE only
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver- Yes
Balorgh- Requires loss of ult for 12 sec buff, factoring in engagement time and gear addon swap time, maybe 7ish secs.
Stygian- Yes
Elf Bane- Only with fire destro ult, pre-buffing would be clunky as all hell for very little gain, and requires you to open with fire destro ult (not lightning)
Jorvuld's Guidance- Not good for solo, most classes don't have easy access to worthwhile buffs. Maybe on a warden who slots enchanted growth and doesn't run forward momentum.
Seventh Legion- Yes

So 10 sets that are pretty much useless in pvp.

Again the only way to pre-buff would be if you are in stealth, with a clear line of sight of incoming enemies with plenty of time to pre-buff before engaging. You can't be anywhere near a keep or resource. You can't be anywhere near other allied players fighting. You can't be anywhere near multiple enemies. You have to very close to the path players will be coming, ie bridges or milegates. Bridges don't give you good visual range and scope to be able to have enough time to pre-buff effectively making it high risk low reward, and a guaranteed death if the addon doesn't complete the gear change before flagged for combat where you potentially don't have any full gear set on.

So yes, you can pre-buff in pvp for a ridiculously high risk for low reward. You could also just be a ganker, run titanborn and jump down from a bridge to engage at less than 50% health. After going 1 for 10 maybe you'll rethink it. And like I said before:

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

Vizirith

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Sangwyne I know some groups were using Arkasis’s Genius to gain ult before pulls.

That's a fair point, I'll give you that. And certainly, both the meta in both PvE and PvP has directly contributed to aspects of the other getting nerfed several times in the past, I just don't think it's fair to try and pin all these changes on PvE when that's clearly not the case this time and this thread was created specifically by OP to discuss how PvP had gotten tanks in Heavy armor nerfed. Again.

Vizirith wrote: »

Of the 17 sets that were directly affected by the nerf to pre-buffing 10 serve absolutely no purpose in pvp at all and in some cases would lower your damage and make you less effective. All 17 directly increase your effectiveness in pve.

And your argument that because the patch notes include nerfs to abilities in pvp and therefore everything in the patch is directly related to pvp doesn't make much sense or logic. Did you see the new furnishings? Because clearly all the rest of the patch notes should therefore be taken in context of house decorators.

I don't know where you got 17, I'm seeing 18 pre-buff sets, and don't forget that sets like Alessia's and DWG were nerfed, Alessia's because of werewolves, looks like DWG was clearly too strong in zergs and was nerfed accordingly. Of the 18, only the 4 Halls of Fabrication sets and Tooth of Lokkestiiz had PvE-exclusive bonuses, the other 13 were perfectly viable pre-buff sets for PvP. Armor Master gave resistances and 5% Max health, far more useful in PvP than to DPS in trials, Meritorious Service gave resistances and required a Support ability to be used, Moon Dancer gave 474 Spell damage or Magicka recovery for 20s, Shroud of the Lich gave Magicka recovery (doesn't look to me like the greatest pre-buff set, but w/e), Spectre's Eye gave 30s of Major Evasion (definitely more useful in PvP), Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver gave damage to Light/Heavy attacks, Balorgh damage stats on ultimate, Stygian was quite clearly nerfed for gank builds in PvP, Elf-Bane was probably only used on destro ult (probably better suited to PvE), Jorvuld's Guidance could easily have been used in PvP, Seventh Legion was used by far more in PvP than PvE, and Senche's Bite activated on roll dodge and probably would have been great on Bosmer Nightblade bow gank builds. And context is important when trying to understand the Developer's intentions; we can clearly see that burst was an issue in their mind, as they nerfed Solar Flare and Snipe, which is pretty much only used in PvP to reduce the amount of burst damage they were capable of outputting, and likely nerfed these "sets than retained their effect after being activated and unequipped" in order to reduce burst at the start of fights (i.e. in PvP) as well. Furnishings have no effect on the meta, but the total burst available through combat sources does, and I was hoping you'd be able to understand that.

PTS v6.3.0
These sets now require you to be in combat for their 5-piece bonuses to activate:
All Halls of Fabrication unique sets
Armor Master
Meritorious Service
Moon Dancer
Shroud of the Lich
Spectre’s Eye
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver
These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian

PTS 6.3.2
In accordance with the recent change to item sets to not be usable while outside of combat to be manipulated as "pre-buff" sets, the following sets now only grant their effects/activate while in combat:
Elf Bane
Jorvuld's Guidance
Seventh Legion

So 17 afaik.

All Halls of Fabrication unique sets- PVE Only, 5 piece buffs only affect pve
Armor Master- Yes can be used in pvp, but lasts 10 secs. Factoring engagement time/gear and ability swap, closer to 5 secs.
Meritorious Service- Yes
Moon Dancer- Requires synergy use, which would not only remove you from stealth but requires another person to be running a non-target necessary synergy.
Shroud of the Lich- You start the fight with 33% mag, good luck killing anybody decent.
Spectre’s Eye- Yes
Tooth of Lokkestiiz- PVE only
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver- Yes
Balorgh- Requires loss of ult for 12 sec buff, factoring in engagement time and gear addon swap time, maybe 7ish secs.
Stygian- Yes
Elf Bane- Only with fire destro ult, pre-buffing would be clunky as all hell for very little gain, and requires you to open with fire destro ult (not lightning)
Jorvuld's Guidance- Not good for solo, most classes don't have easy access to worthwhile buffs. Maybe on a warden who slots enchanted growth and doesn't run forward momentum.
Seventh Legion- Yes

So 10 sets that are pretty much useless in pvp.

Again the only way to pre-buff would be if you are in stealth, with a clear line of sight of incoming enemies with plenty of time to pre-buff before engaging. You can't be anywhere near a keep or resource. You can't be anywhere near other allied players fighting. You can't be anywhere near multiple enemies. You have to very close to the path players will be coming, ie bridges or milegates. Bridges don't give you good visual range and scope to be able to have enough time to pre-buff effectively making it high risk low reward, and a guaranteed death if the addon doesn't complete the gear change before flagged for combat where you potentially don't have any full gear set on.

So yes, you can pre-buff in pvp for a ridiculously high risk for low reward. You could also just be a ganker, run titanborn and jump down from a bridge to engage at less than 50% health. After going 1 for 10 maybe you'll rethink it. And like I said before:

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

That's from October 2017... and what a leap in logic that was.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-3/p1

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

BlueRaven

Vizirith wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Sangwyne I know some groups were using Arkasis’s Genius to gain ult before pulls.

That's a fair point, I'll give you that. And certainly, both the meta in both PvE and PvP has directly contributed to aspects of the other getting nerfed several times in the past, I just don't think it's fair to try and pin all these changes on PvE when that's clearly not the case this time and this thread was created specifically by OP to discuss how PvP had gotten tanks in Heavy armor nerfed. Again.

Vizirith wrote: »

Of the 17 sets that were directly affected by the nerf to pre-buffing 10 serve absolutely no purpose in pvp at all and in some cases would lower your damage and make you less effective. All 17 directly increase your effectiveness in pve.

And your argument that because the patch notes include nerfs to abilities in pvp and therefore everything in the patch is directly related to pvp doesn't make much sense or logic. Did you see the new furnishings? Because clearly all the rest of the patch notes should therefore be taken in context of house decorators.

I don't know where you got 17, I'm seeing 18 pre-buff sets, and don't forget that sets like Alessia's and DWG were nerfed, Alessia's because of werewolves, looks like DWG was clearly too strong in zergs and was nerfed accordingly. Of the 18, only the 4 Halls of Fabrication sets and Tooth of Lokkestiiz had PvE-exclusive bonuses, the other 13 were perfectly viable pre-buff sets for PvP. Armor Master gave resistances and 5% Max health, far more useful in PvP than to DPS in trials, Meritorious Service gave resistances and required a Support ability to be used, Moon Dancer gave 474 Spell damage or Magicka recovery for 20s, Shroud of the Lich gave Magicka recovery (doesn't look to me like the greatest pre-buff set, but w/e), Spectre's Eye gave 30s of Major Evasion (definitely more useful in PvP), Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver gave damage to Light/Heavy attacks, Balorgh damage stats on ultimate, Stygian was quite clearly nerfed for gank builds in PvP, Elf-Bane was probably only used on destro ult (probably better suited to PvE), Jorvuld's Guidance could easily have been used in PvP, Seventh Legion was used by far more in PvP than PvE, and Senche's Bite activated on roll dodge and probably would have been great on Bosmer Nightblade bow gank builds. And context is important when trying to understand the Developer's intentions; we can clearly see that burst was an issue in their mind, as they nerfed Solar Flare and Snipe, which is pretty much only used in PvP to reduce the amount of burst damage they were capable of outputting, and likely nerfed these "sets than retained their effect after being activated and unequipped" in order to reduce burst at the start of fights (i.e. in PvP) as well. Furnishings have no effect on the meta, but the total burst available through combat sources does, and I was hoping you'd be able to understand that.

PTS v6.3.0
These sets now require you to be in combat for their 5-piece bonuses to activate:
All Halls of Fabrication unique sets
Armor Master
Meritorious Service
Moon Dancer
Shroud of the Lich
Spectre’s Eye
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver
These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian

PTS 6.3.2
In accordance with the recent change to item sets to not be usable while outside of combat to be manipulated as "pre-buff" sets, the following sets now only grant their effects/activate while in combat:
Elf Bane
Jorvuld's Guidance
Seventh Legion

So 17 afaik.

All Halls of Fabrication unique sets- PVE Only, 5 piece buffs only affect pve
Armor Master- Yes can be used in pvp, but lasts 10 secs. Factoring engagement time/gear and ability swap, closer to 5 secs.
Meritorious Service- Yes
Moon Dancer- Requires synergy use, which would not only remove you from stealth but requires another person to be running a non-target necessary synergy.
Shroud of the Lich- You start the fight with 33% mag, good luck killing anybody decent.
Spectre’s Eye- Yes
Tooth of Lokkestiiz- PVE only
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver- Yes
Balorgh- Requires loss of ult for 12 sec buff, factoring in engagement time and gear addon swap time, maybe 7ish secs.
Stygian- Yes
Elf Bane- Only with fire destro ult, pre-buffing would be clunky as all hell for very little gain, and requires you to open with fire destro ult (not lightning)
Jorvuld's Guidance- Not good for solo, most classes don't have easy access to worthwhile buffs. Maybe on a warden who slots enchanted growth and doesn't run forward momentum.
Seventh Legion- Yes

So 10 sets that are pretty much useless in pvp.

Again the only way to pre-buff would be if you are in stealth, with a clear line of sight of incoming enemies with plenty of time to pre-buff before engaging. You can't be anywhere near a keep or resource. You can't be anywhere near other allied players fighting. You can't be anywhere near multiple enemies. You have to very close to the path players will be coming, ie bridges or milegates. Bridges don't give you good visual range and scope to be able to have enough time to pre-buff effectively making it high risk low reward, and a guaranteed death if the addon doesn't complete the gear change before flagged for combat where you potentially don't have any full gear set on.

So yes, you can pre-buff in pvp for a ridiculously high risk for low reward. You could also just be a ganker, run titanborn and jump down from a bridge to engage at less than 50% health. After going 1 for 10 maybe you'll rethink it. And like I said before:

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

That's from October 2017... and what a leap in logic that was.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-3/p1

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

So you admit it does happen.

Edit: If dungeon groups are cheesing dungeons, but pvp was well balanced, you change the dungeon.

If pvp is unbalanced what can they do that does not effect pve? They have to change the sets. These changes are pvp based.

Sangwyne

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

Pretty much. We have Word of God telling us that certain sets were being abused to pre-buff and nova from stealth, and more than that, that they were exclusively used to do so. Pre-buffing is not exclusive to PvE, it isn't even mostly exclusive to PvP, there's a comment right there stating that it was however (for this particular set) exclusive to PvP... and my guess is that they took a pass at all "pre-buff" sets to ensure that it couldn't be abused anywhere else either (I don't see why Senche's Bite, Automated Defense, or Inventor's Guard would have been changed otherwise, the last two were so bad they got buffed in update 27 AND in 28 and I still don't think anyone even uses them). We know ZOS saw pre-buffing as an issue in PvP, but we literally do not have a single official comment anywhere about pre-buffing being an issue in trials. Please feel free to correct me on that last statement; I have searched high and low, but never managed to find one.

Vizirith wrote: »

That's from October 2017... and what a leap in logic that was.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-3/p1

Exactly. The Developers have been aware of pre-buffing being abused in the context of PvP for years now, and in that entire time, there isn't a single Developer comment mentioning how pre-buffing was being abused in trials (Again, feel free to prove me wrong, I would enjoy seeing evidence that suggests otherwise). Their definition of "pre-buffing" was entirely different from that of players. The notion of "pre-buffing" as something that could even possibly be used in trials didn't even enter the player lexicon until recently; the ESO-U article on it is from September 25, 2020 and every single post I can find from players about pre-buffing (including that Elf-Bane post made last month) for trials is either from (late) 2020 or 2021. Thank you for pointing that out.

Vizirith

Sangwyne wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

Pretty much. We have Word of God telling us that certain sets were being abused to pre-buff and nova from stealth, and more than that, that they were exclusively used to do so. Pre-buffing is not exclusive to PvE, it isn't even mostly exclusive to PvP, there's a comment right there stating that it was however (for this particular set) exclusive to PvP... and my guess is that they took a pass at all "pre-buff" sets to ensure that it couldn't be abused anywhere else either (I don't see why Senche's Bite, Automated Defense, or Inventor's Guard would have been changed otherwise, the last two were so bad they got buffed in update 27 AND in 28 and I still don't think anyone even uses them). We know ZOS saw pre-buffing as an issue in PvP, but we literally do not have a single official comment anywhere about pre-buffing being an issue in trials. Please feel free to correct me on that last statement; I have searched high and low, but never managed to find one.

Vizirith wrote: »

That's from October 2017... and what a leap in logic that was.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-3/p1

Exactly. The Developers have been aware of pre-buffing being abused in the context of PvP for years now, and in that entire time, there isn't a single Developer comment mentioning how pre-buffing was being abused in trials (Again, feel free to prove me wrong, I would enjoy seeing evidence that suggests otherwise). Their definition of "pre-buffing" was entirely different from that of players. The notion of "pre-buffing" as something that could even possibly be used in trials didn't even enter the player lexicon until recently; the ESO-U article on it is from September 25, 2020 and every single post I can find from players about pre-buffing (including that Elf-Bane post made last month) for trials is either from (late) 2020 or 2021. Thank you for pointing that out.

Yeah I'm now going to go over every single word every dev have ever typed in every source on the internet. But you're right, what we need to do is for you to go into pvp and pre-buff. Just let me know the time and place, I'll be sure to be there and will probably have plenty of fun. But hey what do I know, I've only been pvping for 6 and half years now.

BlueRaven

Vizirith wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

Pretty much. We have Word of God telling us that certain sets were being abused to pre-buff and nova from stealth, and more than that, that they were exclusively used to do so. Pre-buffing is not exclusive to PvE, it isn't even mostly exclusive to PvP, there's a comment right there stating that it was however (for this particular set) exclusive to PvP... and my guess is that they took a pass at all "pre-buff" sets to ensure that it couldn't be abused anywhere else either (I don't see why Senche's Bite, Automated Defense, or Inventor's Guard would have been changed otherwise, the last two were so bad they got buffed in update 27 AND in 28 and I still don't think anyone even uses them). We know ZOS saw pre-buffing as an issue in PvP, but we literally do not have a single official comment anywhere about pre-buffing being an issue in trials. Please feel free to correct me on that last statement; I have searched high and low, but never managed to find one.

Vizirith wrote: »

That's from October 2017... and what a leap in logic that was.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-3/p1

Exactly. The Developers have been aware of pre-buffing being abused in the context of PvP for years now, and in that entire time, there isn't a single Developer comment mentioning how pre-buffing was being abused in trials (Again, feel free to prove me wrong, I would enjoy seeing evidence that suggests otherwise). Their definition of "pre-buffing" was entirely different from that of players. The notion of "pre-buffing" as something that could even possibly be used in trials didn't even enter the player lexicon until recently; the ESO-U article on it is from September 25, 2020 and every single post I can find from players about pre-buffing (including that Elf-Bane post made last month) for trials is either from (late) 2020 or 2021. Thank you for pointing that out.

Yeah I'm now going to go over every single word every dev have ever typed in every source on the internet. But you're right, what we need to do is for you to go into pvp and pre-buff. Just let me know the time and place, I'll be sure to be there and will probably have plenty of fun. But hey what do I know, I've only been pvping for 6 and half years now.

You cannot gank a trial boss. It’s impossible.

If pre buffing is an issue in pve but not pvp, you buff trial bosses to counteract the pre buff. This leaves pvp untouched.

There is little to no way to do the reverse. The only way to rebalance pvp is through armor sets and abilities. Which always effects pve.

Vizirith

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

Pretty much. We have Word of God telling us that certain sets were being abused to pre-buff and nova from stealth, and more than that, that they were exclusively used to do so. Pre-buffing is not exclusive to PvE, it isn't even mostly exclusive to PvP, there's a comment right there stating that it was however (for this particular set) exclusive to PvP... and my guess is that they took a pass at all "pre-buff" sets to ensure that it couldn't be abused anywhere else either (I don't see why Senche's Bite, Automated Defense, or Inventor's Guard would have been changed otherwise, the last two were so bad they got buffed in update 27 AND in 28 and I still don't think anyone even uses them). We know ZOS saw pre-buffing as an issue in PvP, but we literally do not have a single official comment anywhere about pre-buffing being an issue in trials. Please feel free to correct me on that last statement; I have searched high and low, but never managed to find one.

Vizirith wrote: »

That's from October 2017... and what a leap in logic that was.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-3/p1

Exactly. The Developers have been aware of pre-buffing being abused in the context of PvP for years now, and in that entire time, there isn't a single Developer comment mentioning how pre-buffing was being abused in trials (Again, feel free to prove me wrong, I would enjoy seeing evidence that suggests otherwise). Their definition of "pre-buffing" was entirely different from that of players. The notion of "pre-buffing" as something that could even possibly be used in trials didn't even enter the player lexicon until recently; the ESO-U article on it is from September 25, 2020 and every single post I can find from players about pre-buffing (including that Elf-Bane post made last month) for trials is either from (late) 2020 or 2021. Thank you for pointing that out.

Yeah I'm now going to go over every single word every dev have ever typed in every source on the internet. But you're right, what we need to do is for you to go into pvp and pre-buff. Just let me know the time and place, I'll be sure to be there and will probably have plenty of fun. But hey what do I know, I've only been pvping for 6 and half years now.

You cannot gank a trial boss. It’s impossible.

If pre buffing is an issue in pve but not pvp, you buff trial bosses to counteract the pre buff. This leaves pvp untouched.

There is little to no way to do the reverse. The only way to rebalance pvp is through armor sets and abilities. Which always effects pve.

So that pre-buffing becomes necessary in pve? Sure I have no problems buffing all pve content most is way too easy anyway. How long does killing a trial boss take? Does it see you the second you get in visual range and attack? Does it los? Does it play defensive in the face of ults? Does it block hard hitting abilities? Do they all resist taunts and focus healer?

How about this, go into cyro or a bg and prebuff with any of the sets, let me know how much of an impact they had. There is clearly a disconnect between perception and reality.

BlueRaven

Vizirith wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better.

“ Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.”

The developers see pre-buffing in pvp as a problem. They say it right there.

Pretty much. We have Word of God telling us that certain sets were being abused to pre-buff and nova from stealth, and more than that, that they were exclusively used to do so. Pre-buffing is not exclusive to PvE, it isn't even mostly exclusive to PvP, there's a comment right there stating that it was however (for this particular set) exclusive to PvP... and my guess is that they took a pass at all "pre-buff" sets to ensure that it couldn't be abused anywhere else either (I don't see why Senche's Bite, Automated Defense, or Inventor's Guard would have been changed otherwise, the last two were so bad they got buffed in update 27 AND in 28 and I still don't think anyone even uses them). We know ZOS saw pre-buffing as an issue in PvP, but we literally do not have a single official comment anywhere about pre-buffing being an issue in trials. Please feel free to correct me on that last statement; I have searched high and low, but never managed to find one.

Vizirith wrote: »

That's from October 2017... and what a leap in logic that was.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-3/p1

Exactly. The Developers have been aware of pre-buffing being abused in the context of PvP for years now, and in that entire time, there isn't a single Developer comment mentioning how pre-buffing was being abused in trials (Again, feel free to prove me wrong, I would enjoy seeing evidence that suggests otherwise). Their definition of "pre-buffing" was entirely different from that of players. The notion of "pre-buffing" as something that could even possibly be used in trials didn't even enter the player lexicon until recently; the ESO-U article on it is from September 25, 2020 and every single post I can find from players about pre-buffing (including that Elf-Bane post made last month) for trials is either from (late) 2020 or 2021. Thank you for pointing that out.

Yeah I'm now going to go over every single word every dev have ever typed in every source on the internet. But you're right, what we need to do is for you to go into pvp and pre-buff. Just let me know the time and place, I'll be sure to be there and will probably have plenty of fun. But hey what do I know, I've only been pvping for 6 and half years now.

You cannot gank a trial boss. It’s impossible.

If pre buffing is an issue in pve but not pvp, you buff trial bosses to counteract the pre buff. This leaves pvp untouched.

There is little to no way to do the reverse. The only way to rebalance pvp is through armor sets and abilities. Which always effects pve.

So that pre-buffing becomes necessary in pve? Sure I have no problems buffing all pve content most is way too easy anyway. How long does killing a trial boss take? Does it see you the second you get in visual range and attack? Does it los? Does it play defensive in the face of ults? Does it block hard hitting abilities? Do they all resist taunts and focus healer?

How about this, go into cyro or a bg and prebuff with any of the sets, let me know how much of an impact they had. There is clearly a disconnect between perception and reality.

Pre-buff in pvp? Like how pvp players were doing with clever alchemist? That was exactly described in that quote you linked, yet still claim never happens? Do that?
Just want to be clear.

Anyway, fixing the bosses would be easy enough.

First you would target where it is an issue, I would guess it is an issue (if it is indeed a problem in trials) with hard mode vet boses. So this change would only happen there.

Then simply give those bosses a “shield” that limits the incoming damage to max out at a certain amount, for a certain limited amount of time when the fight starts.

This makes prebuffing irrelevant for higher end groups as crossing that amount would be pointless. Yet still allow prebuffing for less “bleeding edge” ones as I am guessing the pre-buff is not a concern at Zos for them.

Limiting top end damage for the beginning part of “problem” fights. See? Easy.

Edit: Btw I don’t own any pre-buff sets. Since I do pve I favor hard sustain and max stats sets. Not temporary buffs.

Sangwyne

Vizirith wrote: »

Yeah I'm now going to go over every single word every dev have ever typed in every source on the internet. But you're right, what we need to do is for you to go into pvp and pre-buff. Just let me know the time and place, I'll be sure to be there and will probably have plenty of fun. But hey what do I know, I've only been pvping for 6 and half years now.

[snip]

BlueRaven wrote: »

Pre-buff in pvp? Like how pvp players were doing with clever alchemist? That was exactly described in that quote you linked, yet still claim never happens? Do that?
Just want to be clear.

Anyway, fixing the bosses would be easy enough.

First you would target where it is an issue, I would guess it is an issue (if it is indeed a problem in trials) with hard mode vet boses. So this change would only happen there.

Then simply give those bosses a “shield” that limits the incoming damage to max out at a certain amount, for a certain limited amount of time when the fight starts.

This makes prebuffing irrelevant for higher end groups as crossing that amount would be pointless. Yet still allow prebuffing for less “bleeding edge” ones as I am guessing the pre-buff is not a concern at Zos for them.

Limiting top end damage for the beginning part of “problem” fights. See? Easy.

Edit: Btw I don’t own any pre-buff sets. Since I do pve I favor hard sustain and max stats sets. Not temporary buffs.

Sadly, I don't think directly quoting Developer Comments will be sufficient to change their mind. Somehow people have become convinced that "pre-buffing" is exclusively a PvE thing and all their PvP problems rest on a handful of top trial groups, rather than admit otherwise. All the documentation in the world would do nothing if it was just ignored. I really do wish people could see that neither PvP nor PvE benefits from having to deal with fallout from the other side- it's long past time to separate the modes to better balance this game and allow for people to enjoy the distinction between their builds.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Sangwyne

Vizirith wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Yeah I'm now going to go over every single word every dev have ever typed in every source on the internet. But you're right, what we need to do is for you to go into pvp and pre-buff. Just let me know the time and place, I'll be sure to be there and will probably have plenty of fun. But hey what do I know, I've only been pvping for 6 and half years now.

[snip]

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

Sangwyne wrote: »

We have Word of God telling us that certain sets were being abused to pre-buff and nova from stealth, and more than that, that they were exclusively used to do so. Pre-buffing is not exclusive to PvE, it isn't even mostly exclusive to PvP, there's a comment right there stating that it was however (for this particular set) exclusive to PvP... and my guess is that they took a pass at all "pre-buff" sets to ensure that it couldn't be abused anywhere else either (I don't see why Senche's Bite, Automated Defense, or Inventor's Guard would have been changed otherwise, the last two were so bad they got buffed in update 27 AND in 28 and I still don't think anyone even uses them). We know ZOS saw pre-buffing as an issue in PvP, but we literally do not have a single official comment anywhere about pre-buffing being an issue in trials.

I really want to have a constructive discussion with you regarding this because I do think both sides would benefit from more nuanced adjustments to skills, sets and strategies, and that can't happen while the two are linked.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Merforum

Sangwyne wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

And they don't care about PVE at all. Except to point out the Trial 'end game PVEers' who are just as toxic as they are, got some sets Nerfed and blaming that on you and me as if the vast massive multitude of 'normal' PVP and PVEers had anything to do with any of the NERFs. It is sad that ZOS has made so many changes only to appease this tiny minority of PVP and PVE players but hopefully they'll learn their lesson when they only have these few people left.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Banetek

I for one am happy that ESO decided to fix the issues with heavy armor. It became very difficult in pvp to kill heavy armor wearers and gave them an unfair advantage. They should not be able to move as fast as me when I'm wearing light armor.

Looking forward to seething the patch tomorrow too!!

marius_buys

No SERIOUSLY thanks! Tank/Stam/Proc meta was way over-performing

Sangwyne

Banetek wrote: »

I for one am happy that ESO decided to fix the issues with heavy armor. It became very difficult in pvp to kill heavy armor wearers and gave them an unfair advantage. They should not be able to move as fast as me when I'm wearing light armor.

Looking forward to seething the patch tomorrow too!!

marius_buys wrote: »

No SERIOUSLY thanks! Tank/Stam/Proc meta was way over-performing

So remind me why PvE needed to suffer in order to balance PvP? It's abundantly clear that the changes were made to appease one side of the game with no concern given as to how it would affect the other half. Tanks were certainly not overperforming in PvE, they were by far the smallest population and the limiting factor finding a group for dungeons and trials. Now they've been hit with the nerf bat yet again because of an unrelated issue; these changes could have been made through Battle Spirit or otherwise exclusively through PvP.

DreadDaedroth

So heavy armour gets load sof penalties that make it less fun but if I'm light or medium armour player and I use outfit station and put on all heavy armour style, I wear a flashy lava skin, I go around with a loud bright pet no penalties to stealth and run wow.