Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »NordSwordnBoard wrote: »Veteran 15 Crystals
Normal 10 Crystals
See if that diverts more of the vet players out of normal. I like the simple idea of the boss dropping the crystals, but zos wants to increase people grouping up, not discourage it with solo runs.
You will never balance out the speed factor simply because there is too much disparity between new players and experienced ones. There is not "but"s or "if"s. The reality is people are tied to those dungeons on daily basis and its required of them to do them multiple times to achieve the goals. And that my friend is where the speed factor comes in. Its not only transmutes, its also gear, leads, skill points for your 10th alt and so forth. You simply can't expect experienced players to do the content slower only because you can't keep up. It's like asking people to drop faster cars because you have a Ford T.
CaptainVenom wrote: »As a 1000+ CP, I really, REALLY hate dungeon speedrunning.
I'll be straight on this issue: I play ESO to enjoy it, and I can't enjoy it if I rush things. Everytime I'm called to the dungeon and people start speedrunning, I simply get annoyed and want to quit... sometimes I really do quit, and knowing that I'm the healer, good luck.
It's time people start thinking why they play ESO.
For some people speed running is fun, though.
It's fun only if you can keep up. If you're lvl 20 left stumbling through mobs speedrunner agroed and skipped, with no stamina left, possibly repeatedly dying, while they solo boss somewhere you can't get to, it's opposite of fun. Had been in lot of speedruns which I've loved, both normal and vet. The difference about those compared to what lot of us here complain about was, that everyone made sure, that everyone else is able to keep up and there was comunication - "let's skip here" "let's run through these" etc.
One of the best speedruns was vet City of Ash II, with group where no one spoke same language and yet no one ditched anyone and person who knew the skip road led us through, including spot where we all had to sneak up from lava pool to not agro mobs and another one where we had to mount up to get uphill on a bridge. We went "monkey see, monkey do" (the person in the know went out of their way to show us) and comunicated by smiley faces in chat. Must have skipped half of the dungeon (not the bosses, though) and got achievements for about everything at the end. It was quick, it was fun, everyone was happy at the end.
Now imagine the "leader" player ditching us because they're slightly faster than rest of us and no one else knows where to skip, finished majority, if not all bosses alone and rest of us had to requeue for the pledge since we wouldn't get credit for final boss. That would be ... not as fun imho. But hey - he'd just saved whole two minutes of his own time, so that's cool.
That is a design flaw in base game dungeons, newer dungeons only require you to talk to npc at start and at the end of the dungeon, no waiting on npcs during the dungeon. Devs were smart enough to identify their design flaw and change it for future dungeons.CaptainVenom wrote: »Some quests requires you to wait a NPC dialogue before I can interact with them (AKA Banished Cells I), but ppl can't simply wait, even when you say you're doing quest for your skillpoint. That is the point, and that's why I hate speedrunning.Maw was updated to be the best performing single target monster set. Players had nothing to do with this decision. Can't blame players for using best performing items. Devs never did anything to change Maw's visual problems in group play no matter how many players complained. Thankfully Maw is no longer best.Speedsters were few, player´s with MAW set blocking for tanks never happen.
As for the large increase of "speedsters" in normal dungeons lately, well there's a few reasons. PvP fellas already said their viewpoints. Let me add a few reasons from an endgame PvE standpoint.
- A fair amount of PvE endgamers used to get their transmute crystals from cyrodiil 30 day campaigns (myself included). We just went to cyro, typed LFG in chat and quickly got picked by a chill zerg (or healed some zerg without grouping) , in less than an hour we are eligible for 50 crystals at the end of the month per character and the process was quite fun for me personally, I'm not good at PvP but loved sieging/defending keeps with zergs against zergs. Devs made changes to cyrodiil and grouping now there's barely anybody picking up players and cyro feels like a place only for hardcore PvPer. And the performance in cyrodiil, jesus.
- Absurd RnG for drop rate of certain set items (mostly weapons) in dungeons, no system in place to account for extremely bad luck.
- Devs improved crystal sources from PvE but did it in a rather absurd manner. No such thing as higher the challenge/risk, higher the reward now. Crystal reward for weekly vet trial leaderboard is the same as a simple daily random normal dungeon .
"Speed runners" are maybe part of the blame, but a lot of these issues come from dev decisions and design flaws.
phileunderx2 wrote: »ZOS get rid of randoms giving the most crystals.
We should get 10 on the competition of our first dungeon of the day no matter the mode.
Anotherone773 wrote: »It’s clear from some of the posts in this thread that some people’s definition of a speed run is anything where you can’t read all the quest dialogue. I think that is pretty extreme. You will be hard pressed to find 3 other people in the game who want to go that slow. That said, I have done it before because a guild-mate asked. They wanted to get all the lore books, etc, for a new dungeon and take their time. You will not find people willing to go below “normal” pace in the group finder. Normal is generally not sprinting to the last boss, but definitely burning through everything ASAP.
100% disagree and strongly disagree with the bolded part. I have been in loads of normal DF groups in which we went at a slower pace for quests. We have stopped to explain boss mechanics even if no one has asked, we even spend time socializing at times. I once spent 2 hours running white gold tower because the newbies struggled with mechanics. Some of the best tanks i have ever played with in this game have stopped and waited for new players and while we were waiting for the new player, he was tossing out tips and such almost all of which i already knew but the other person seemed to only know some of it.
Reward driven players say things like " normal is not sprinting but burning through everything ASAP. " These players cannot comprehend why you would want to take longer than absolutely necessary to do content. They then get annoyed when people take their time to do content.
Fun driven players don't care about hurrying up to get the reward, or being fast or the best. The journey is what they care about. A majority of players, not only in dungeons, but the game are fun driven, not reward driven.
The problem is that i really absolutely do not care about fun when doing a normal dungeon since i pretty much only do them to grind a specific gear set or get some fast XP.
So obviously im am trying to get through them as fast as possible, because i either want to waste as little time from my XP scroll as possible or have already done that same dungeon 5+ times earlier that day and dont want to waste any more time with it but just want to be done with it ASAP. (even though i will pretty much always wait when someone says he needs quest in chat).
Both parties are responsible imo. I know people who farmed base game dungeons 50+ times to get 1 staff and it just doesn't drop, I don't blame them for being impatient the next time they try the dungeon. I didn't even mention the leads because I'm not familiar with antiquity system.I´m a cp 1400+ and can run normals without being a speedsters or skip for that matter. People are responseble for their actions not zos.
Titansteele wrote: »The problem here, as I see it is the slower runners are in a minority as the lifespan for the majority of slow runners is short.
The reasons why the majority approach these dungeons will become valid for those who are currently in the "slow" camp within a short period of time.
There are exceptions to this statement, I acknowledge that but they are not large in numbers.
It has been mentioned in this thread already but in my opinion the resolution to this is for people to join a likeminded guild. We have many vet players but anytime a member says "I am on the Quest" or "Can I see the story" we have gone at whatever pace suited. If you are on PC-EU and want an invite let me know.
Both parties are responsible imo. I know people who farmed base game dungeons 50+ times to get 1 staff and it just doesn't drop, I don't blame them for being impatient the next time they try the dungeon. I didn't even mention the leads because I'm not familiar with antiquity system.I´m a cp 1400+ and can run normals without being a speedsters or skip for that matter. People are responseble for their actions not zos.
Besides I'm not justifying anybody, just stating some possible reasons for why "speedsters" have increased in normal dungeons lately. Lot of reasons lead to that. And quite a few of them were thanks to the changes made to the game.
Anotherone773 wrote: »Titansteele wrote: »The problem here, as I see it is the slower runners are in a minority as the lifespan for the majority of slow runners is short.
The reasons why the majority approach these dungeons will become valid for those who are currently in the "slow" camp within a short period of time.
There are exceptions to this statement, I acknowledge that but they are not large in numbers.
It has been mentioned in this thread already but in my opinion the resolution to this is for people to join a likeminded guild. We have many vet players but anytime a member says "I am on the Quest" or "Can I see the story" we have gone at whatever pace suited. If you are on PC-EU and want an invite let me know.
That's not true at all. You are just making assumptions. Also there are a lot of people that you would call " slow runners" that refuse to do dungeons at all or rarely because of how toxic they are and they hate feeling like they have to sprint through them just to catch up.
I have been in many groups that do dungeons at slow to normal place. Usually its 1 person in my groups that tries to speed run ahead, pulls all the trash and either almost dies or the trash returns to their position only to swamp the guy that is furthest behind and he has to ghost run through it and miss out on a boss. That happens a lot. The only reason the two in the middle of the pack are going faster is they are trying to keep up with MR Blitz.
yeah, i think it is very lame for ZoS to put 10 crystals on random normals. Now everyone wants to speed run MORE THAN EVER.
I do want 10 crystals, but not from random fungal grotto.
Give me like 2 crystals from random normal, 10 from random vet
give me 5 for normal pledge, 10 for vet pledge +5 for hardmode, 15 for dlc vet +10 for hardmode.
That will be FUN, and cure some of the insane random normal farming.
And yes, this is an urgent matter. As more and more new players(and existing players) are running into this issue. Ruining their gaming experience. In turn causing them to quit, and leaving the game because they want to play for fun. Solo speedrunners and other types of groupdisfunctioning playertypes should be dealt with, as they do not belong in an MMO game. Despite of what excuse(s) they tell themselves, they are just selfish.
this is an urgent matter. As more and more new players(and existing players) are running into this issue. Ruining their gaming experience. In turn causing them to quit, and leaving the game because they want to play for fun.
Easy solution: Make random vets give 12-15 transmutes. We'd never willingly suffer through a random normal pug again and you guys could have the normals all to yourselves.
Just a heads up, it's a pretty miserable experience for us too. We have to deal with players (who are usually only doing 5-10% of the group dps between them) who not only don't know the mechanics, but will often do things that end up making the fight harder for those of us who are doing the actual dps in the group. Or they immediately die, get rezzed, die again, repeat 4 times until we give up rezzing them and just finish the fight without them, then get to read the torrent of angry text from them in HUD chat for finally leaving them on the ground. All this for a measly 10 transmutes. Sometimes it just doesn't feel worth it.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »Easy solution: Make random vets give 12-15 transmutes. We'd never willingly suffer through a random normal pug again and you guys could have the normals all to yourselves.
Just a heads up, it's a pretty miserable experience for us too. We have to deal with players (who are usually only doing 5-10% of the group dps between them) who not only don't know the mechanics, but will often do things that end up making the fight harder for those of us who are doing the actual dps in the group. Or they immediately die, get rezzed, die again, repeat 4 times until we give up rezzing them and just finish the fight without them, then get to read the torrent of angry text from them in HUD chat for finally leaving them on the ground. All this for a measly 10 transmutes. Sometimes it just doesn't feel worth it.
12-15 wouldnt be enought
expecilly if u have to do VET with RANDOMS imagine getting something like scallcaller and ur the only one who knows the mechanics ....
and even with easy vets normal dungons are 3x faster so the reward for vet should atleast be 3x higher
Easy solution: Make random vets give 12-15 transmutes. We'd never willingly suffer through a random normal pug again and you guys could have the normals all to yourselves.
Just a heads up, it's a pretty miserable experience for us too. We have to deal with players (who are usually only doing 5-10% of the group dps between them) who not only don't know the mechanics, but will often do things that end up making the fight harder for those of us who are doing the actual dps in the group. Or they immediately die, get rezzed, die again, repeat 4 times until we give up rezzing them and just finish the fight without them, then get to read the torrent of angry text from them in HUD chat for finally leaving them on the ground. All this for a measly 10 transmutes. Sometimes it just doesn't feel worth it.
No.
Do not move the crystals to vet only. Why not? Because players who do not want to do vet dungeons do want crystals as well.
Why should they be excluded?
That doesn't feel fair to me
Easy solution: Make random vets give 12-15 transmutes. We'd never willingly suffer through a random normal pug again and you guys could have the normals all to yourselves.
Just a heads up, it's a pretty miserable experience for us too. We have to deal with players (who are usually only doing 5-10% of the group dps between them) who not only don't know the mechanics, but will often do things that end up making the fight harder for those of us who are doing the actual dps in the group. Or they immediately die, get rezzed, die again, repeat 4 times until we give up rezzing them and just finish the fight without them, then get to read the torrent of angry text from them in HUD chat for finally leaving them on the ground. All this for a measly 10 transmutes. Sometimes it just doesn't feel worth it.
Which can be said of speed runners and questers. There is no solution that will suit everyone, we all need to face facts and accept that
Anotherone773 wrote: »Which can be said of speed runners and questers. There is no solution that will suit everyone, we all need to face facts and accept that
There is a solution that fits everyone, i came up with it. Everyone gets something they want and it have little to no negatives for any other group. Most people don't want solutions to their problems, they just want to complain about them.
Anotherone773 wrote: »
There is a solution that fits everyone, i came up with it. Everyone gets something they want and it have little to no negatives for any other group. Most people don't want solutions to their problems, they just want to complain about them.
Your solution will increase queue time and may potentially reduce success rate of some difficult dungeons (such as moon hunter keep). ZoS don't like to split queues I think, they said something like that for battlegrounds.Anotherone773 wrote: »There is a solution that fits everyone, i came up with it. Everyone gets something they want and it have little to no negatives for any other group. Most people don't want solutions to their problems, they just want to complain about them.
Anotherone773 wrote: »
There is a solution that fits everyone, i came up with it. Everyone gets something they want and it have little to no negatives for any other group. Most people don't want solutions to their problems, they just want to complain about them.
Except, as been explained many times by many people, your solution does not fit everyone, its as open to abuse as any other solution. Sorry but if people want to take their time in dungeons the best solution is for them to go into the dungeon in a premade group. I allow agree that that is the best solution for speed runners
PUG at your peril, you get what you get and all players in the group have to accept that not all of their needs will be met, unless one of the members is a skilled cat herder...
I'm sick amd tired of these discussions. I really am, the ones who want to do dungeons at their own slow pace never ever seem to like the suggestion that they actually form a group before using the group finder because it seems its their right to run a dungeon at whatever pace they want.
I'm not condoning the speed runners but who can really blame them? Doing a random for 10 crystals on multiple characters takes time. As such they want to do each run quickly.
The solution? Accept that when you PUG you have a good chance of getting a speed freak.
I rarely PUG, I generally do premades, on the rare occasion we can only get 3 together we make sure the randoms needs are met, if they want to do the quest they do the quest.
But don't expect to take all night with it.