spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

For the twentieth time, no one here is proposing anything be taken away from anyone. Only that there be options added. Which is in fact healthy for the longevity of the game, as it gives people like me something to do after they reach level 10.

They are proposing that.

Right now they can get all achievements and associated rewards through normal questing. With this change, they cannot. This takes away ability to receive ALL achievements and associated rewards through normal questing by breaking it down into a tiered reward system that excludes some players
[/ If a player is really so obsessed with achievements, I hate to tell you but they will need to up their dps at some point anyway in that case. That's how every single game is.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

For the twentieth time, no one here is proposing anything be taken away from anyone. Only that there be options added. Which is in fact healthy for the longevity of the game, as it gives people like me something to do after they reach level 10.

They are proposing that.

Right now they can get all achievements and associated rewards through normal questing. With this change, they cannot. This takes away ability to receive ALL achievements and associated rewards through normal questing by breaking it down into a tiered reward system that excludes some players

I hate to tell you this, but if a player is really that obsessed with achievements, then they're going to need to obtain higher dps to get the many achievements in game anyway. Having achievements for harder content is a good thing, and for extreme casuals as you've described to me, literally nothing would have changed.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

I don't care about one particular thing =/= I don't care about all of it.

That particular thing as you put it, is the premise of your disagreement here. We have nothing further to discuss in which case.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

But they already cannot complete *all* the achievements because they're not doing *all* the content. .

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I still think the whole "achievements" thing is just silly...
I don't know what this whole "achievement" thing is supposed to be good for. All it seems like to me (and family and friends) is kindergarten oneupsmanship.

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

I don't care about one particular thing =/= I don't care about all of it.

That particular thing as you put it, is the premise of your disagreement here. We have nothing further to discuss in which case.

The one thing being that it doesn't detract from anyone else/have any downsides is neither the main point of their post nor my disagreement.

The main point of my disagreement is the idea is tying achievements and additonal loot behind the quest bosses.

The OP claims that this is a side idea and not the main idea, and others have expressed they don't care as much about the loot but the experience.

In which case, there shouldn't be any problems with not tying loot and achievements to the OP'S idea. If it's purely about the story, there should not be a huge problem with making it a story thing only.

And yet I have had many replies trying to tell me that a group of players losing the ability to get all the achievements isn't taking away the ability to get all the achievements. Or that there are no downsides. Both of which I find pretty preposterous since I know people IRL that might uninstall over such a change.

Except you can’t do all of the quests without getting into the veteran content - the trial is still part of that.

But again as long as the “Lair” achievements are a separate section then your concern is taken care of.
Players still get an achievement for beating it like you normally do.