Harder Main Story Bosses
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Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
In your eyes. Those are the key words. But not everyone feels that way, especially in a game that offers so many different activities and playstyles.
I don't do vet content for a variety of reasons, but I do put effort into making myself stronger for how I play and the things I choose to do. I find satisfaction in completing every zone, every quest, and fully completing the maps. I also love harrowstorms and world boss fights. And I gear up so I can do these without being carried by the group I am engaging these with.
But I still think this is more about wanting upgraded drops than the difficulty of the boss. And that would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.
op·tion·al
/ˈäpSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
available to be chosen but not obligatory.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Yes. There is. When you do all the quests you get a series of rewards for doing them. And the satisfaction of having completed a zone
You want to take away stuff from new players to give it to vet players. Vet players have every other piece of content, and you want to take away the only thing for new ones.
That is a big deal. Completing things and getting all of the rewards is a major part of what makes video games fun. You're talking about taking away the only real accomplishment and reward new players have (total completion of quests and the associated rewards) to reward a group that has everything.
No it’s adding an option to veterans it’s not taking away anything from new players. Taking away implies that there was something already there for new players to obtain. Which there isn’t.
It’s giving something to veteran players.
There are plenty of achievements in the zone that are tied to endgame veteran content and I do not see any new or casual player complaining about those.
If you are worried about being able to fill the bar for completing steps in a quest line in the achievement journal - Then there is a simple fix for that.
You don’t have to make the veteran achievements directly tied to achievements related to completing the main quest.
You make it a separate section called “Lair” - there you’ll find all the veteran story boss achievements.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »But I still think this is more about wanting upgraded drops than the difficulty of the boss. And that would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.
It’s almost like I foresaw that very problem in previous threads and made the reward specifically cosmetic as to address that concern.1 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
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It’s almost like I foresaw that very problem in previous threads and made the reward specifically cosmetic as to address that concern.
It's a shame that you made such a detailed, well thought out, and constructive post, only for no one to actually read it apparently.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna2 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
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You're not alone, believe me. Questing makes up the majority of content in this game, and out growing it before you even hit level ten is absurd.MirandaSharp wrote: »I'd like to have a difficulty slider in the settings for overland questing that simply changes the level scaling ratio, making the player character effectively lower level than the enemies. Just a way to nerf oneself to make questing fun again on higher level characters. Now I make a new low level character if I want to enjoy a quest line, cause it's just not fun with an uber powered high level char.
Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
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It’s almost like I foresaw that very problem in previous threads and made the reward specifically cosmetic as to address that concern.
The storyline bosses are what they are. Their difficulty shouldn't change or it's not the same quest. Saying "Go kill this main enemy" or "Go kill this boss with special rewards" completely changes the point of the questline. And it does make the second option inaccessible to the new and average players.
No one should anyone be able to change the boss and get a better reward, especially in the storyline quests that are the backbone of the game.Edited by SilverBride on November 21, 2020 11:30PMPCNA1 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
The storyline bosses are what they are. Their difficulty shouldn't change or it's not the same quest. Saying "Go kill this main enemy" or "Go kill this boss with special rewards" completely changes the point of the questline. And it does make the second option inaccessible to the new and average players.
No one should anyone be able to change the boss and get a better reward, especially in the storyline quests that are the backbone of the game.
It's almost like there should be incentive to either get somewhat stronger or group up with friends in an mmo designed to last you for years. How horrid.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well.... I'm not sure cosmetics are really a "better reward".
As for your point @Iccotak - as long as its optional (with a toggle? or something), and the rewards for the greater difficulty are cosmetic only, I have no problem with it at all.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »Well.... I'm not sure cosmetics are really a "better reward".
Many players put a lot of effort into earning cosmetics, like skins for example. Any many collect mounts and vanity pets. None of which affect game play, but are just as important to them.Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
It's almost like there should be incentive to either get somewhat stronger or group up with friends in an mmo designed to last you for years. How horrid.
They give us a game with many ways to enjoy it. They don't tell us how we have to play it, and neither should anyone else.Edited by SilverBride on November 21, 2020 11:41PMPCNA1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Eh, there's already a lot of people playing who can't do the hard content for things like skins etc. So if it's only more of that sort of thing it's not really a big deal.
Then again, the only possible skin I would EVER use would be the Maormer one. Skins are just plain ugly in this game.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »Eh, there's already a lot of people playing who can't do the hard content for things like skins etc. So if it's only more of that sort of thing it's not really a big deal.
Not a big deal to you, but it is for many others.
PCNA1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We'll agree to disagree. But thank you for your sig info so I could look up Amorphis.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »We'll agree to disagree. But thank you for your sig info so I could look up Amorphis.
It's where I got my name and I identify with it.
And thanks, from Silver to Sylver.PCNA1 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭And round and round it goes. OP, I'm sorry, but if you're looking for actually engaging questing content, I'd look for something else other than ESO. Arguing for it to be any different is going to get you nowhere, as we see in this very thread, because the vast majority of players simply do not want to put effort into their gameplay, and would rather play entirely to relax, unwind and have fun, without thinking.0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭And round and round it goes. OP, I'm sorry, but if you're looking for actually engaging questing content, I'd look for something else other than ESO. Arguing for it to be any different is going to get you nowhere, as we see in this very thread, because the vast majority of players simply do not want to put effort into their gameplay, and would rather play entirely to relax, unwind and have fun, without thinking.
This isn’t a poll and the “majority” are two-three people going back and forth.
Plenty other people here have agreed that there’s a problem with the current format for story bosses or have no issue with the proposal.Edited by Iccotak on November 21, 2020 11:58PM2 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭God reading this thread hurts. An optional difficulty does not change anything for players. There is other content and there are other rewards, cosmetic or not, that are gated behind a harder difficulty. Adding more should not be an issue.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »They give us a game with many ways to enjoy it. They don't tell us how we have to play it, and neither should anyone else.
Except that’s exactly what you’re doing.
You’re telling people who want the story boss to actually be a challenge to look elsewhere for challenges, even when the proposal is for an optional game mode
And people working hard to get cosmetics are participating in Veteran content, so this proposal would give them more to do & obtain - not take anything away from them1 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭
This isn’t a poll and the “majority” are two-three people going back and forth.
Plenty other people here have agreed that there’s a problem with the current format for story bosses or have no issue with the proposal.
Two to three people in this thread, meanwhile there's how many in game who have no idea the forums existed and would riot even at something entirely useless being taken away from them (see the various threads that popped up when Crystal Blast was replaced with Crystal Weapon)?
I'm in full favour of an optional difficulty increase in not only questing content, but all overland content, but I've simply come to accept the reality that it's not going to happen because the people who pay Zenimax's bills are from the same cut as those who are arguing against this.
Even if by some miracle it did happen, you'd have an absolute metric *** ton of salt being dumped all over the forums, let alone in-game chat, to the point where it'd likely be rolled back or significantly nerfed. I'd love if an optional difficulty increase were to come without any of this coming with it, but I seriously doubt that'd be the case.
Other MMO's are able to offer a more casual experience while still keeping overland and questing content engaging enough for veteran players, especially when you consider achievements that can sometimes take a duo/trio to smoothly complete, so I'd honestly just move over to them and find one that works for you, rather than engaging in pointless back and forth on a problem that probably isn't going to be fixed, if I were you.0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Except that’s exactly what you’re doing.
You’re telling people who want the story boss to actually be a challenge to look elsewhere for challenges, even when the proposal is for an optional game mode
I am not the one asking that anything be changed, or for special content to be added to satisfy my playstyle. But changing the fundamental backbone of this game, the storyline, to satisfy the wants of a few, is not reasonable or fair.Edited by SilverBride on November 22, 2020 12:14AMPCNA0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
op·tion·al
/ˈäpSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
available to be chosen but not obligatory.
And to finish the content and get all the rewards, it would be obligatory to complete it on vet under your proposal.
Right now, they can complete the quests and get ALL associated achievements in rewards. To get that exact same place now, they would be required to do it on Vet. Which means it would be OBLIGATORY to complete it on vet to achieve the same thing they achieve right now without vet content. That is NOT optional.
Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 12:20AM2 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
YES! And what is wrong with that? Isn't that the entire premise of entertainment?
There's nothing wrong with that, nothing at all! What's wrong is that these players want this so much, that they don't even want to entertain the idea of allowing someone else to have anything remotely akin to a challenge, without even affecting themselves, so much so that they'd waste time on the forums going around in pointless circles, in pointless threads.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
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There's nothing wrong with that, nothing at all! What's wrong is that these players want this so much, that they don't even want to entertain the idea of allowing someone else to have anything remotely akin to a challenge, without even affecting themselves, so much so that they'd waste time on the forums going around in pointless circles, in pointless threads.
It wouldn't effect me. It would effect new players. Like, just factually, they go from being able to complete a piece of content and get all of it's achievements and rewards to not being able to under this proposal.
I'm not the only kind of player that matters. There needs to be content that is able to be fully completed by every type of player. PvPers, vet players, elite raiders, and yes new players too.
Right now, new players and casual players have quests and delves, and some of the older dlc world bosses and world events
Mid level players have normal dlc dungeons and vet base game dungeons, newer dlc world bosses and events
Vet players have vet dlc dungeons and vet base game trials
And elite raiders have vet dlc trials and achievements for vet dlc dungeons
And ofc pvp breaks down similarly
There is a clear progression in content difficulty, with all levels of players having something rewarding and completely finishable on their own or with others of their skill level.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 12:30AM3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
And to finish the content and get all the rewards, it would be obligatory to complete it on vet under your proposal.
Right now, they can complete the quests and get ALL associated achievements in rewards. To get that exact same place now, they would be required to do it on Vet. Which means it would be OBLIGATORY to complete it on vet to achieve the same thing they achieve right now without vet content. That is NOT optional.
You can still complete the story on normal and solo.
The achievements are specific to veteran achievements separate from the Quest line.
So it’s not taking anything away, it adds a new section of achievements for the zone.
That Said - With or without this proposal - You still have to get into Veteran content if you want to do and get everything in a zone.
(This has been the case for all content added)
So the argument that this proposal somehow “forces you to do Veteran content” is moot.Edited by Iccotak on November 22, 2020 12:31AM2 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
It wouldn't effect me. It would effect new players. Like, just factually, they go from being able to complete a piece of content and get all of it's achievements and rewards to not being able to under this proposal.
I'm not the only kind of player that matters. In other for an MMO to thrive their MUST be at least some content that a new player can totally complete all on their own.
GW2 is another MMO that isn't that far behind ESO in terms of population, and is even considered to be an ultra casual MMO, and yet it's able to have achievements that literally require players to know how to properly play (kill a quest boss in a certain amount of time, kill a quest boss without letting the boss perform a specific mechanic, kill a quest boss without damaging them using a special weapon that deals up to 10x more damage than your normal weapons, etc), and in some cases even requires a group to smoothly complete, and yet nobody complains about them there.
So either this problem is entirely limited to ESO (which would mean it's not an issue with MMO's, like you're saying), or it's a problem that you're thinking that new players would have or even care about when in reality they don't (which I'd argue the vast majority simply don't care if they can't complete an achievement).
Either way, it's ridiculous to shoot down an optional difficulty increase just because you think it may offend newer players. It's optional, it's entirely up to them whether they want to run the content with the difficulty increase or not. Whether it has or doesn't have extra achievements or better rewards shouldn't matter, for the reasons I outlined above. There's no good reason that you have to be shooting down this suggestion.3 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
And to finish the content and get all the rewards, it would be obligatory to complete it on vet under your proposal.
Right now, they can complete the quests and get ALL associated achievements in rewards. To get that exact same place now, they would be required to do it on Vet. Which means it would be OBLIGATORY to complete it on vet to achieve the same thing they achieve right now without vet content. That is NOT optional.
But it is. You are not forced to do anything in a difficulty that you dont want to do it in. Getting all associated achievements is optional. No matter how you spin it it will never be obligatory. Getting all rewards will always be optional aswell. No one is forced to get all rewards. People want to get all rewards but that doesnt make it obligatory to actually grind them all nor does it entitle one to get all the rewards simply because one wants them.
In addition normal and veteran are the same content only in another difficulty. Storywise it stays the same content.
That being said I dont see difficulty changes, even optional ones, happening because Zos doesnt really care about that.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You can still complete the story on normal.
The achievements are specific to veteran achievements separate from the Quest line.
So it’s not taking anything away, it adds a new section of achievements.
Right now, they can complete the story and get ALL associated achievements. Adding new ones they cannot get does take that ability away. They go from being able to complete something to not being able to complete it.That Said - With or without this proposal - You still have to get into Veteran content if you want to do and get everything in a zone.
(This has been the case for all content added)
So the argument that this proposal somehow “forces you to do Veteran content” is moot.
You do not have to do any vet content to receive all achievements from quest content. Which is what is being changed. So no, it isn't.
You want to take away one of the only pieces of content they can complete on their own.
Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 12:37AM1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well.... the OP is asking for optional. Where's the problem then? If it's an option, fine - I'll never flip that switch because there's no way with mega satellite ping that I can do optional "vet level" content.
But that's fine, because the less difficult bosses will still be there for me. And just for info.... "less difficult" does NOT mean I get through Molag Bal or Kaalgrontiid in just a few minutes - Molag Bal took me 4 tries the first time which took up the better part of two hours; and on my other account 5 tries, apparently because my ping was even WORSE that day than a week before; and Kaal - well, that was the single most miserable encounter I have EVER had in any game I've played since 1985! So I'm not ever doing the Elsweyr quest lines again, because mega ping means things are not "normal" for me trying to kill stuff.
Oh, and my main who actually got through that totally MISERABLE Kaal fight - cannot manage to kill Yahgrondu. Ping doesn't allow me to roll-dodge out of red. Etc. Nope, that's not on the game, that's on me for not wanting to live in a major pop center with gig internet.... Then again.... I don't have to worry about stuff like Covid, people with guns taking out their frustrations on random people and so on. Works for me....1 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
Except that some of us don't agree with it.
That's not a good enough reason when you literally are not affected by it. It's an optional difficulty increase! Run the quest on normal! It's not hard!3
This discussion has been closed.