Harrowstorms are an unfun step backwards: a couple months later

Kingpindragon · October 2020

I personally love Dragon mechs & fight, seems balanced imo. Also, I don't think it should be soloable. There is already enough single player content in the game. Harrowstorms are a step back UI wise, and mech wise I'm conflicted. HS are pretty messy only when more mini bosses spawn, otherwise they are easy. Each mini boss has their own mechs and they can overlap with other mini bosses.

HS just highlight that players don't enjoy tough content with a poor reward. Maybe the more mini bosses = better rewards. I give the dev team the benefit of the doubt because it is 2020. Hopefully they fix it down the road.

Drdeath20 · October 2020

How bout activity finder for dlc world events/bosses? Reward 1 daily transmute crystal.

xshatox · October 2020

The reward is small. Dragon give better reward than harrowstorm.

Slyclone · October 2020

Well said, OP. I think they're garbage. Can't even survive 20 seconds.

code65536 · October 2020

WhisperLFE wrote: »

I agree, the Shrike AoE's dmg is ridiculous. It's hard enough to even seen the red circle to begin with because of all the other AoE circles, but there have been multiple times when the circle seemingly doesn't even show up until I've taken a tick or two of dmg...which is annoying, because 2 or 3 ticks usually kills you.

If you have an addon that tells you when you are taking the ticks, then you will see that the ticks happen pretty much instantly. It basically 1-shots people.

For example, I took 3 ticks within 0.6s, and the final two ticks happened at basically the same time.

code65536 · October 2020

Hurbster wrote: »

So do people reckon there will be a bunch more to do in the Markath dlc?

LOL, there are definitely Harrowstorms in the Q4 DLC. Have fun!

Contaminate · October 2020

code65536 wrote: »

WhisperLFE wrote: »

I agree, the Shrike AoE's dmg is ridiculous. It's hard enough to even seen the red circle to begin with because of all the other AoE circles, but there have been multiple times when the circle seemingly doesn't even show up until I've taken a tick or two of dmg...which is annoying, because 2 or 3 ticks usually kills you.

If you have an addon that tells you when you are taking the ticks, then you will see that the ticks happen pretty much instantly. It basically 1-shots people.

For example, I took 3 ticks within 0.6s, and the final two ticks happened at basically the same time.

I don’t really get people who claim it’s random or untellegraphed.

The bird miniboss breathes a purple orb at someone (the animation takes about a full second before the AoE starts), the ground AoE then spawns where the target player was standing and it follows them for a time. Exact same mechanics we saw with the Clockwork City bird trio WB, and in the Castle Thorn dungeon.

For the ghosts, tbh I don’t know that they could’ve made it more obvious that the ghosts were being sacrificed. The eerie voice announces it every time you let more than a couple to the pikes. Literally something to the effect of “throw yourselves upon the pikes”. You can cc the ghosts once and they won’t move at all anymore so anyone letting them summon multiple world bosses is on them, not on any unclear mechanics.

code65536 · October 2020

I was doing a Harrowstorm for the daily the other day during NA primetime hours... but on PC/EU. The place was deserted and I had to solo it.

As people have mentioned, preventing the Lost Souls from reaching the pike will prevent Champions from spawning. This is clearly not intuitive since I rarely see people focus ghosts as I do these things for the event.

Soloing a Harrowstorm is like playing whack-a-mole. As soon as I clear the Lost Souls from one pike, a wave is getting close to another pike, and by the time I'm done saving that pike, a third pike is in imminent danger, and then the original pike is in danger again. I'm basically running in a circle around the entire area, from pike to pike, expending all my damage just clearing the Lost Souls. The pikes sloooowly are whittled down by AoE cleave as I do this.

Yes, it's possible to solo it, but it's a long, horribly tedious process. And very unforgiving. If I let some ghosts through, then a Champion spawns, and then that's going to slow me down and more ghosts will get through, and things will inevitably spiral towards a wipe.

Mind you, this is during the event, and the Harrowstorms are already abandoned during the off-hours on PC/EU, and I'm left with no choice by to try to solo them. Imagine this when there isn't an event going on...

SickleCider · October 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WhisperLFE wrote: »

I agree, the Shrike AoE's dmg is ridiculous. It's hard enough to even seen the red circle to begin with because of all the other AoE circles, but there have been multiple times when the circle seemingly doesn't even show up until I've taken a tick or two of dmg...which is annoying, because 2 or 3 ticks usually kills you.

If you have an addon that tells you when you are taking the ticks, then you will see that the ticks happen pretty much instantly. It basically 1-shots people.

For example, I took 3 ticks within 0.6s, and the final two ticks happened at basically the same time.

I don’t really get people who claim it’s random or untellegraphed.

The bird miniboss breathes a purple orb at someone (the animation takes about a full second before the AoE starts), the ground AoE then spawns where the target player was standing and it follows them for a time. Exact same mechanics we saw with the Clockwork City bird trio WB, and in the Castle Thorn dungeon.

For the ghosts, tbh I don’t know that they could’ve made it more obvious that the ghosts were being sacrificed. The eerie voice announces it every time you let more than a couple to the pikes. Literally something to the effect of “throw yourselves upon the pikes”. You can cc the ghosts once and they won’t move at all anymore so anyone letting them summon multiple world bosses is on them, not on any unclear mechanics.

That's the thing about the Shrikes. We know how the attack is supposed to work, from experience with other Wraiths of Crows, but for many the animations and AoE circles just never appear. I have never once seen any visual tied to Carrion Swarm. I just have to assume if the Shrike is looking at me, they must be doing it.

Agree about the ghosts though. They're pretty intuitive.

LadyLethalla · October 2020

The "minibosses" have just as much health as the final boss, right? Add lag into some of their attacks and you're insta-dead because you couldn't dodge. Not only that but if you don't damage the final boss enough you don't end up with anything except maybe a "treasure" or two and some trash. If you're lucky. If you died, say because the titan stunned you (even after rolldodging) or the damn flying vamp lord hit you with his ranged attack twice, you might get squat.

I would hope they scale down the number of adds and the minibosses' health so they can be soloed when the inevitable player numbers drop, but then, dragons are still unsoloable, so...

Zephiran23 · October 2020

My observations:

Arrive early and someone will inevitably charge in solo. Meanwhile my alt and the level 32 over there are waiting for enough people to reduce the event chaos. (Also happening with WBs during event)

So many people still kiting the adds around the edge of the circle instead of using (multiple player) AOEs on them. I get you can't do much with the magic casters, but moving the others (melee, werewolves, hounds, bear etc) shouldn't be a problem.

Difficulties with knowing a miniboss or two is now behind you and getting hit by multiple ground AOE simultaneously.

Additional loot - if coagulants are being spawned, they do have loot, the corpse duration is very short, so even though you might be eligible for loot actually obtaining it is hard with everything else going on.

If your DPS is low enough as a group, you can have the situation with the pikes getting rebuilt (3 of us on PC/EU, off-peak time, no other players ever came to assist - yes it was announced as being up). We destroyed 1, but were getting killed frequently and while attacking another the 1st got rebuilt. Had to give up that time.

On the no map icon for which Harrowstorm is active, the 1st responders seem very reluctant to call them out most of the time, it doesn't have any impact on their loot and probably will reduce repair costs, so I can't see any advantage in that lack of cooperation.

Magdalina · October 2020

Cloudtrader wrote: »

The major problem with the Harrowstorms, to my mind, is that the mechanics of how they work are just not intuitive AT ALL. The ghosts getting to the pikes is what causes the bosses to spawn, but people don't seem to know that.

It wasn't fun, but I did a HS with 4 people once. Have a Templar control the ghosts at two pikes with their knockback, running back and forth between the two while the others kill the 1st pike and make sure the ghosts never get to it with AOE. That way, those stupid bosses never spawn at all.

Tbh, people choosing to ignore mechanics is not ZOS fault. I'd rather we get more interesting mechanics than never get any just because someone can't be bothered to figure them out. This logic is also present everywhere on the game - WB, geysers, dragons, (vet) dungeons, trials...if you want fancy stuff, you gotta follow the mechs. If you choose to ignore the mechs/don't even bother figuring them out (ghosts are pretty intuitive. I mean...a monster is consistently and deliberately trying to do something, in this case - reach the pike. 10/10 things monsters try to do are meant to be bad for you and should be stopped (unless it's an easy fight where it can just be ignored, but that's clearly not the case for HS) ) - you're gonna die.

Likewise, I've seen groups of 5+ people wipe on Ri'Atahrashi due to not following mechanics (sometimes even after I told them said mechanics, buy they just chose to ignore that), or multitudes of people die/wipe to easily avoidable dragon mechs. Just because not following mechs gets you killed, it doesn't mean it's broken, in fact I'd say it's the opposite - that's exactly how it should be.

HS certainly have their issues, but people ignoring mechs is a people issue, not a HS one.

Vlad9425 · October 2020

I think they’re fine gameplay wise but honestly the frame rate drops and lag around them is insane so I tend to avoid them most of the time because of that

Grandchamp1989 · October 2020

Harrowstorms:
Honestly, do like Northern Elseweyr dragon - place a wayshrine next to them
Give us a map marker that let us know where it spawns and how destroyed the harrowstorm is.

It would go a loooooooooong way in having people farm them.

I terms of difficulty I don't mind. People have been asking for harder overland content for awhile now - this is a step in the right direction IMO.

Jaraal · October 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

I still don’t understand why people are not killing the ghosts. Often I am at a HS running back and forth just targeting ghosts because no one else is doing it.

At one I saw six people dpsing a pike and still ghosts got through. Just drop some aoes people!

Anyway I agree with the OP, HS’s are poorly designed. It really feels like a big step backward.

What's worse is seeing people running around fighting a miniboss or a pack of trash mobs, or both, while the ghosts just keep healing the pikes and spewing out more shrikes and other million plus HP annoyances.

The problem with killing the ghosts is that new ghosts will spawn. If you can keep the ghosts stunned / feared / rooted / Time Stopped, you can focus on the pikes without a bunch of adds and new ghosts to deal with.

You can tell who the veteran harrowstorm disruptors are at a glance. You arrive at the storm and a few are standing around waiting for reinforcements so the pikes can be burned down quickly. But then the rookie hero rushes in and triggers the spawn mechanic, while they keep dying and summoning a boss army that everyone else will have to deal with.

There's literally no reason why these storms can't be made to scale like geysers, or have helpful map icons with location and half health indicators, like dragons. Or why we have to have 83k one shots (Release The Abyss) in our death recaps. Who knows why they designed these interactive events to be so difficult, confusing, and frustrating. Not I.

Aznarb · October 2020

Hardly disagree on storm.
That really a good and challenging content added for overland.
It's easier to solo than dragon and very challenging, that cool, not everything in open world need to be faceroll easy.

Lord-Otto · October 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

The major problem with the Harrowstorms, to my mind, is that the mechanics of how they work are just not intuitive AT ALL. The ghosts getting to the pikes is what causes the bosses to spawn, but people don't seem to know that.

It wasn't fun, but I did a HS with 4 people once. Have a Templar control the ghosts at two pikes with their knockback, running back and forth between the two while the others kill the 1st pike and make sure the ghosts never get to it with AOE. That way, those stupid bosses never spawn at all.

Tbh, people choosing to ignore mechanics is not ZOS fault. I'd rather we get more interesting mechanics than never get any just because someone can't be bothered to figure them out. This logic is also present everywhere on the game - WB, geysers, dragons, (vet) dungeons, trials...if you want fancy stuff, you gotta follow the mechs. If you choose to ignore the mechs/don't even bother figuring them out (ghosts are pretty intuitive. I mean...a monster is consistently and deliberately trying to do something, in this case - reach the pike. 10/10 things monsters try to do are meant to be bad for you and should be stopped (unless it's an easy fight where it can just be ignored, but that's clearly not the case for HS) ) - you're gonna die.

Likewise, I've seen groups of 5+ people wipe on Ri'Atahrashi due to not following mechanics (sometimes even after I told them said mechanics, buy they just chose to ignore that), or multitudes of people die/wipe to easily avoidable dragon mechs. Just because not following mechs gets you killed, it doesn't mean it's broken, in fact I'd say it's the opposite - that's exactly how it should be.

HS certainly have their issues, but people ignoring mechs is a people issue, not a HS one.

There are no interesting mechanics in harrowstorms. It's just ZOS' old trick of spamming AoE oneshots.

Veinblood1965 · October 2020

Other than the daily quest are the actual rewards found from a storm worth it? I don't recall having any Wow moments after looting one. At least with Dark Anchors and dragons there were some decent trinkets.

craybest · October 2020

I think the main issue is the loot table, if it was comparable to dragons, maybe it wouldn't be an issue. the rest could be improved by learning more about the tactics and strategy in general (although it's hard to see the red among all the red in the storm itself)

spartaxoxo · October 2020

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Other than the daily quest are the actual rewards found from a storm worth it? I don't recall having any Wow moments after looting one. At least with Dark Anchors and dragons there were some decent trinkets.

Vile Coagulant and the very nice and very expensive Vampire furniture

Lunerdog · October 2020

So last night I got clobbered with 4000 dmg, 4000 dmg, 4000 dmg, 4000 dmg and 39000 dmg all within a couple of seconds. Wasn't standing in the red either.

How do you even counter that ?

Starshadw · October 2020

virtus753 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

The major problem with the Harrowstorms, to my mind, is that the mechanics of how they work are just not intuitive AT ALL. The ghosts getting to the pikes is what causes the bosses to spawn, but people don't seem to know that..

Wait... what???

How in the heck did you even figure that out??

The witch’s voice also clearly says that the reliquary is “almost filled,” indicating that something is filling it up. Makes sense that the ghosts fill it up.

She also says "more souls" as well, as another clue.

VaxtinTheWolf · October 2020

I've only completed 3 Harrowstorms during the current PTS while I was experimenting with my tank. It was a bit chaotic and I had no idea what was going on the majority of the time, but as a tank I still had fun by grabbing attention of all the loose rampaging werewolves and stuff while the few other players did their thing.

Maybe that's all that's needed, a decent enough tank player or two to keep the angry monsters distracted like is done with any other content in the game to make the experience much smoother?

KingArthasMenethil · October 2020

I really do feel that the Shrikes should be nerfed. I've had it where red appears at my feet and I'm dead the moment after I see it. That's not good gameplay.
Like the other elite monsters are better in that you can see and react to them but the Shrike is like nah you die now.

Edit: the reaction time is an issue because you can't always say a player will always be looking at a shrike as they might be fighting another miniboss, a Pike, dealing with ghosts and etc.

spartaxoxo · October 2020

Gaius_Marius wrote: »

I really do feel that the Shrikes should be nerfed. I've had it where red appears at my feet and I'm dead the moment after I see it. That's not good gameplay.
Like the other elite monsters are better in that you can see and react to them but the Shrike is like nah you die now.

Personally I think if you nerfed the shrike and made the amount of ghosts that spawn at a pike dependent on the number of players, it would future proof the Harrowstorms a lot.

Maybe 1 per pike up a time when there is only one player. More players means more ghosts. You could decrease the number needed to spawn a boss with only one person up too by making it percentage based. Like if a third of Ghosts are ignored in a wave, a boss spawns.

pleximus · October 2020

LEAVE HARROWSTORMS ALONE!! They're my favourite thing about the game and should stay EXACTLY like it is!!

Sporvan · October 2020

Dragons are the most fun by far :-) Thank you for the perfect writeup! I couldn't have added anything more and I hope ZOS listens to you.

BoraxFlux · October 2020

Harrowstorms are a nice challenge, getting them done the first few times was a steep learning curve. There is a lot happening within the area of a HS, but there is definitely order in the chaos.

Pikes are priority number one , I lay down AoE on them and use area attacks (e.g Brawler) to get Pike, ghost and trashmobs simulteanously (Brawler also gives a nice shield). When champions are around, I keep moving around the Pike block/evade /roll dodge / their attacks. Each champion has their own tell tale moves, if they are stacking upon you it gets harder to differentiate between opportunity and loss :P.
Teamwork helps to alleviate those pressure points, and break the stacking champions into more survivable units.

When in the wee hours, the fights get interesting, it feels like an accomplishment when doing one with very few people.
Which is a reward on it's own really.
I truly like them and hope they don't get changed. Even the Harrowstorm Shrike, which I hate with a vengeance

Jaraal · October 2020

BoraxFlux wrote: »

Harrowstorms are a nice challenge, getting them done the first few times was a steep learning curve. There is a lot happening within the area of a HS, but there is definitely order in the chaos.

If they were instanced, yes. They would be fun to do with a well organized group that knows mechanics.

The problem is that you can be doing your job well, but other players can make your job that much more difficult by not following the mechanics. With say, dragons, if you don't know what you're doing, you'll die a lot until you learn, but your inexperience doesn't really have an impact on the other players. Dragon circling around for a strafing run? Watch that guy standing in the middle die in 3...2...1... boom. With harrowsorms, it only takes one or two folks spawning trash armies, activating the off-pikes while everyone is focusing the primary target, or whatever.

And I've seen a lot more public criticism and zone arguments about these events than any other world event. Folks tend to get quite heated and vocal about their dissatisfaction with things related to harrowstorms. I hardly see how that can be good for the game.

Taleof2Cities · October 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Folks tend to get quite heated and vocal about their dissatisfaction with things related to harrowstorms. I hardly see how that can be good for the game.

But, have players put their "dissatisfaction" in the right place?

The complaints I hear the most are either related to: (a) not knowing the mechanics, (b) loot, or (c) the random spawn of the Harrowstorm itself.

- Not knowing the mechanics is easy to correct with a 5-minute online read by the player ... or a 5-minute chat with an experienced player with prior Harrowstorm clears.

- As mentioned above, the Harrowstorm loot does include valuable Vile Coagulant or Vampire Furnishing Plans (RNG of course). Some players may not be interested in those items ... but that doesn't mean there is an across the board nothing of value.

- Random spawns of Harrowstorms are a refreshing change from Dolmens and Geysers. These are world events ... not a circular loot train that players follow or a methodical checklist to clear achievements.