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Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration
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CMDR_Un1k0rn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Switch rapids with vigorwtlonewolf20 wrote: »Fur_like_snow wrote: »So PvErs will have to spend MORE time in PvP to get rapids. *rubs paws together*
Lol wont happen. I predict the opposite, you will see Less PVErs in pvp. Maybe some more newer players, I typically only run the gauntlet for vigor. Rapids is most beneficial for new players. But smart PVErs will just do BGs. What you should expect is more dead weight In BGs because without rapids being first cyrodill will be a waste of time. So people will do BGs and if they are like me and just doing it for the skills they wont care if they lose. Your experience is probably going to be worse all around.
Personally I won't mind that so much.
As I say, if you're not planning on doing PvP long-term you do not need need Rapids outside a few specific Trials and Dungeon speedruns. Even then, only one of the group actually has to have rapids for the buff to be applied to everyone.
Vigor? It's more important than Rapids, and ignore the people saying that you'll "miss every battle".
You won't. Below-50 sieges are tense, and when everyone is fighting, they take a fair bit of time. Use the Transistus network accordingly and you will not miss battles. Not to mention that when you join a group, there is usually someone buffing the slower players with Rapids anyway. I usually take that role myself in groups. And yet I am also always at the front of sieges with ballistae because my build is very tanky and can survive up close. Funny how I can do that when I am first making sure the slow players arrive in time... I am far from the only person who does this, at least in the Ebonheart Pact. We're honestly quite nice under the Dragon Banner.
Unfortunately right now, a lot of those slower players then die because they are using a stamina build as most PvP'ers do, they do not have an effective self-heal. Rapids is not going to save them here. Vigor will. And before the morph they'll be healing the rest of the group too. Possibly more so if they choose the group heal morph. Depends on where PvP takes them later down the line.
Suffice to say, if you play Cyrodiil as a group, which you really should at low level, then not having Rapids for a few hours will not hurt. The fact it means you get a powerful stamina heal right off the bat is even better.
As for PvE players not sticking around? Honestly, that is a good thing. I know PvE players often do not enjoy PvP. This change means they get the skill they need for staying alive, for free. I fail to see how Rapids will keep you alive in vCR if you're a StamDD and get sent underground. Vigor however, will. Each PvE player getting what they need quickly frees a PvP slot for someone who actually wants to PvP.
I am not interested in ganking. I always try to let DC/AD players go in towns if they yield and ignore capture flags when I raise my shield, so they can do their quests. I want to fight people who can fight back, and quite possibly, and probably, beat me. Because that's how I improve in PvP.
In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!1 -
ninjaguyman✭✭✭Switch rapids with vigorrapids is a qol skill, the kind you instantly swap off bar as soon as you cast it. For stam builds, vigor is not. Even if it is not that hard to get vigor currently for veteran players, removing that jank feeling of not having one of your main heals in a pvp area should be welcome to both new and veteran players alike.
Characters:
AD breton nb: Shadowshinobi
DC Altmer magicka nb: merc shot4 -
johnebrown✭✭✭Cloudtrader wrote: »It is much more important to keep up with groups in PvP with Rapids early on with your non-leveled mount than it is to actually try to heal yourself in a fight. You're going to die anyway, but if you have Rapids you might have an actual chance not to get ganked from falling way far behind the group on your slow newbie pony.
That's very true.
But players who are interested in group PvP are more likely to actually engage Cyrodil in a serious way and therefore are probably going to end up getting a lot more AP than PvE players who don't even want to PvP in the first place and are just there to get a skill that lets them heal themselves.
But the same thing counts for rapids if it is switched as it does with vigor now for players who don't want to PvP. If someone does not want to participate in PvP, it's their own choice for missing out on skills.
That would be a valid point for people who do not currently have Rapids. However I already have it on 54 characters (3 full accounts). But my Assault level is 3 or less on ~50 of those characters. So I did what I had to do to get the skill I wanted. Now it seems they want to take it away unless I level 50 toons ( how long would that take for a PVP neophyte that doesn't like PVP?) or pay to level with crowns for 50 toons? Actually I can't even do that because I have no Assault level 10 toons.
Edited by johnebrown on July 16, 2020 1:29AM1 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is nowCMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »Fur_like_snow wrote: »So PvErs will have to spend MORE time in PvP to get rapids. *rubs paws together*
Lol wont happen. I predict the opposite, you will see Less PVErs in pvp. Maybe some more newer players, I typically only run the gauntlet for vigor. Rapids is most beneficial for new players. But smart PVErs will just do BGs. What you should expect is more dead weight In BGs because without rapids being first cyrodill will be a waste of time. So people will do BGs and if they are like me and just doing it for the skills they wont care if they lose. Your experience is probably going to be worse all around.
Personally I won't mind that so much.
As I say, if you're not planning on doing PvP long-term you do not need need Rapids outside a few specific Trials and Dungeon speedruns. Even then, only one of the group actually has to have rapids for the buff to be applied to everyone.
Vigor? It's more important than Rapids, and ignore the people saying that you'll "miss every battle".
You won't. Below-50 sieges are tense, and when everyone is fighting, they take a fair bit of time. Use the Transistus network accordingly and you will not miss battles. Not to mention that when you join a group, there is usually someone buffing the slower players with Rapids anyway. I usually take that role myself in groups. And yet I am also always at the front of sieges with ballistae because my build is very tanky and can survive up close. Funny how I can do that when I am first making sure the slow players arrive in time... I am far from the only person who does this, at least in the Ebonheart Pact. We're honestly quite nice under the Dragon Banner.
Unfortunately right now, a lot of those slower players then die because they are using a stamina build as most PvP'ers do, they do not have an effective self-heal. Rapids is not going to save them here. Vigor will. And before the morph they'll be healing the rest of the group too. Possibly more so if they choose the group heal morph. Depends on where PvP takes them later down the line.
Suffice to say, if you play Cyrodiil as a group, which you really should at low level, then not having Rapids for a few hours will not hurt. The fact it means you get a powerful stamina heal right off the bat is even better.
As for PvE players not sticking around? Honestly, that is a good thing. I know PvE players often do not enjoy PvP. This change means they get the skill they need for staying alive, for free. I fail to see how Rapids will keep you alive in vCR if you're a StamDD and get sent underground. Vigor however, will. Each PvE player getting what they need quickly frees a PvP slot for someone who actually wants to PvP.
I am not interested in ganking. I always try to let DC/AD players go in towns if they yield and ignore capture flags when I raise my shield, so they can do their quests. I want to fight people who can fight back, and quite possibly, and probably, beat me. Because that's how I improve in PvP.
So when you are PvPing in a group, you run rapids, but you don't have a healer to heal the people without self-heals?The Moot Councillor1 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Other:Vigor should be the first ability in the support line. Leave rapids where it is. PvP is painful without rapids so it should be easy to get as well.5 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is nowCMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »Fur_like_snow wrote: »So PvErs will have to spend MORE time in PvP to get rapids. *rubs paws together*
Lol wont happen. I predict the opposite, you will see Less PVErs in pvp. Maybe some more newer players, I typically only run the gauntlet for vigor. Rapids is most beneficial for new players. But smart PVErs will just do BGs. What you should expect is more dead weight In BGs because without rapids being first cyrodill will be a waste of time. So people will do BGs and if they are like me and just doing it for the skills they wont care if they lose. Your experience is probably going to be worse all around.
Personally I won't mind that so much.
As I say, if you're not planning on doing PvP long-term you do not need need Rapids outside a few specific Trials and Dungeon speedruns. Even then, only one of the group actually has to have rapids for the buff to be applied to everyone.
Vigor? It's more important than Rapids, and ignore the people saying that you'll "miss every battle".
You won't. Below-50 sieges are tense, and when everyone is fighting, they take a fair bit of time. Use the Transistus network accordingly and you will not miss battles. Not to mention that when you join a group, there is usually someone buffing the slower players with Rapids anyway. I usually take that role myself in groups. And yet I am also always at the front of sieges with ballistae because my build is very tanky and can survive up close. Funny how I can do that when I am first making sure the slow players arrive in time... I am far from the only person who does this, at least in the Ebonheart Pact. We're honestly quite nice under the Dragon Banner.
Unfortunately right now, a lot of those slower players then die because they are using a stamina build as most PvP'ers do, they do not have an effective self-heal. Rapids is not going to save them here. Vigor will. And before the morph they'll be healing the rest of the group too. Possibly more so if they choose the group heal morph. Depends on where PvP takes them later down the line.
Suffice to say, if you play Cyrodiil as a group, which you really should at low level, then not having Rapids for a few hours will not hurt. The fact it means you get a powerful stamina heal right off the bat is even better.
As for PvE players not sticking around? Honestly, that is a good thing. I know PvE players often do not enjoy PvP. This change means they get the skill they need for staying alive, for free. I fail to see how Rapids will keep you alive in vCR if you're a StamDD and get sent underground. Vigor however, will. Each PvE player getting what they need quickly frees a PvP slot for someone who actually wants to PvP.
I am not interested in ganking. I always try to let DC/AD players go in towns if they yield and ignore capture flags when I raise my shield, so they can do their quests. I want to fight people who can fight back, and quite possibly, and probably, beat me. Because that's how I improve in PvP.
The problem is with the player base that ISN'T included in your scenarios. Which is probably the largest group out there. New Players, Questers, Farmers, are all hurt by this. people that casually pvp or pve also. Solo players, the guild less. All of these people are negatively impacted by the swap.
Vigor is a NICE TO HAVE Stamina skill, not every stamina build actively runs it. Its bad for Magicka builds and there are better options for most healing builds. So its narrow in its utility. However, if you look at Rapids, its one of the most basic skills that the MAJORITY of the player base grabs, even the players that just sit around and do crafting writs one 50+ characters all day everyday use it. Players that Farm, fish, craft, RP, quest, PVP, endgame PVE or are just starting out USE or HAVE used the skill. Now it will just be an insult to get again, its a skill that you got without any player interaction (like the majority of the ones out there) and has ultility for EVERY play style. vigor may keep stamina builds alive in combat, but rapids is about getting ALL players where they WANT to be faster than walking or running.
Side Note: It IS nice when PVPers let people do their daily quests in Cyrodill, That said, your one of a handful that actually does that. there have been times where i have died just as i was about to click on the complete quest only to be ganked, and then the PVPers bottle necked and camped the quest turn in spot for HOURS. So, while SOME are honorable their are others that exist that are not so much.9 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is nowCMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »I just did the maths.
14 Battlegrounds games are all you need to hit Alliance 5 if you lose every game.
It's not hard.
One or two Below-50 sieges and you're talking way less, too. And if you pair it with PvP daily quests, less still.
And how Salty would you be if I was on your team and just wandered around the BG doing nothing? That is what you will get 14 games per character, through 18 characters time hundreds of players. People here on the forums Already complain about AFK BG players its not going to get better with the change.3 -
dem0n1k✭✭✭✭✭
✭Switch rapids with vigor
So when you are PvPing in a group, you run rapids, but you don't have a healer to heal the people without self-heals?
PVP stam builds must have thier own heals as well as the group heals. There are always going to be those situations were you need to break away from the group & survive on your own.
Personally, I like the idea of putting Vigor as the first skill on the Support line & Rapids staying as the first skill on the Assault line.. solves both issues.
NA Server [PC] -- Mostly Ebonheart Pact, Mostly.3 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is nowkendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".
OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.
Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.
People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?
Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.
As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.
Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!
Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!
100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)
Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..
But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.
I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.
So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")
Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)
If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?Kiralyn2000 wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.
Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.
That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")
...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.
(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)
its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)
I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.
edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.
do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.
and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?
Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.
PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.
Yes, and the VAST majority of the nerfs to gameplay and skill come as the result of abuses and complaints about PVP players builds and actions at the EXPENSE of PVE players. THIS CHANGE included. So please tell me why i should feel bad that PVPers have to PVE for a little bit?3 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭Other:This is insane. Just. ***. Swap. Vigor. With. Siege. Shield. Fixes this entire situation, without screwing either player. Siege Shield is only used in PvP, Vigor is only used by stamina, Rapids is used by everyone. In addition, Siege Shield is only used by support roles in PvP, so not every player needs it. Rapids is used by everyone, in both PvP and PvE, so every player should have access to it. Anybody arguing against this is just being selfish, or are living under a beautifully furnished rock.10 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is nowkendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".
OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.
Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.
People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?
Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.
As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.
Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!
Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!
100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)
Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..
But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.
I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.
So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")
Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)
If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?Kiralyn2000 wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.
Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.
That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")
...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.
(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)
its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)
I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.
edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.
do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.
and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?
Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.
PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.
I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?
this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.
PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.
***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***
This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.
I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.
It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".
OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.
Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.
People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?
Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.
As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.
Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!
Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!
100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)
Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..
But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.
I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.
So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")
Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)
If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?Kiralyn2000 wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.
Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.
That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")
...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.
(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)
its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)
I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.
edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.
do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.
and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?
Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.
PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.
I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?
this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.
PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.
***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***
your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.
and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.
just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.
That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?
If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.
More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.
I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.
I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.
I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.
But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.
you know what I can say to this? apply your rant to vigor. there. and leave the current skills alone as they are. want pvp skill? (vigor) then go pvp.
DONE.
dude. you need to listen to your own words sometimes.
you are creating this bizzare slippery slope over a QUALITY OF LIFE skill, by comparing it to COMBAT skills (which vigor also is)
P.S. the only class that I have hard time with as far as personal heals go - is nighblade. and THAT is a nighblade issue, NOT lack of early vigor issue.
Bizarre slippery slope literally everyone in this thread is making comparison so why point me out, cause I disagree with you?
The idea that in a skill line for a WAR ZONE that a healing power is unlocked before a Speed buff is not a hard thing to understand.
the idea that most classes have built in CLASS self heal on the other hand is apparently a rough one for you? I point YOU out because you are replying to me with arguments that are not thought through. but I can point out others as well.
the bizzare thing here is that you are arguing for a quality of life skill being pushed farther away. like you cannot see a world where they could fix self heal situation WITHOUT taking away quality of life ability 100% of the players can enjoy without having to grind for it.
let me try to put it in simplest terms I can
IT. is NOT. a ZERO. SUM. SITUATION. it shouldn't be anyway. GIVING PLAYERS STAMINA HEAL DOES NOT HAVE TO COME AT A COST OF QUALITY OF LIFE FEATURE. proper solution would be to leave rapids as they are and fix the heal situation in some other way. whether its by adjusting class abilities or moving vigor to support skill line instead of currently available shield LIKE ITS BEEN SUGGESTED MULTIPLE TIMES.
Every class doesn’t have build in self heal every MAGIC class does. If you can’t heal yourself out of combat without needing to deal damage it’s not a self heal.
No you can’t “fix” the problem by adding stamina class heals and you know it. To do that would be seen as taking a morph from magic to give to stamina players. Okay so let’s be both honest and realistic, hell let’s just look at what they are doing right now.
When addressing the lack of stamina on demand self heals what did they come up with? Changing unpopular morph of heals to stamina (we all know the skills that are just never picked) did they choose to do that? Did they come up with leaving Vigor where it is and make it possible for stamina builds of all classes to self heal like mages can, no they chose to move vigor cause they know the lack of stamina self heals is a problem and moving one skill that would *** all of PvE off was easier then fixing broken classes.
PvE and magic build in general would be pissed if they fixed classes by making more skill stamina. You know this everyone knows. When sorcs want Crystal Blast to be made a stamina morph Sorcs came out the woodworks saying they used it this happens time and time again well you can’t have it both ways. They can fix the healing imbalance or move vigor and well they chose to move Vigor.
you can still use magika heals as a stamina character. in fact - i prefer it cause it leaves me extra stamina for other combat skills/dodging/etc. I don't remember/haven't personaly seen any conversations as far as crystal blast, but i DO remember when they first messed with crit surge/power surge and THAT one was because originally it was morph for stam and morph for magika, and they decided to basically take away magika morph capabilities and making into a healing ability for HEALING sorcs, while leaving dps sorcs without a viable class ability more or less. as far as i can see, in general people are just fine with having stam and magika morphs per ability. as long as they provide roughly equal benefits/functionality. and more importantly. when something you used to have acess to is NOT arbitrarily taken away.
and yes. you can have it both ways. as people keep suggesting. MOVE. VIGOR. TO. SUPPORT. tada.
and i'm still not understanding WHY are you defending losing rapids.
You can't use magic heals as stamina and be okay you would need to invest in max magic and regen otherwise you will not be able to heal when you need to.
Moving Siege Shield is bad people use it on flags, wall breaches and not die while besieging down a wall or door it's used in PvP, a self heal usable sooner is needed in PvP they are PvP lines what's best for PvP is what needs to be done.
No one is losing Rapids you will just have to get more AP. This tread is just people not wanting to PvP.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »So...people are claiming that it's so easy to get to Rank 5, and that it doesn't take that long at all, so getting Rapids once it's moved won't be that hard.
By that logic then shouldn't Vigor be fine where it is, too? If it's not that hard to get, and doesn't take that long to unlock...then what does it matter if you're without that heal a few hours? You're not going to be without it so long that you're dying for days and days and days. The argument of "oh it would be so easy to unlock Rapids and not take that long" can apply to Vigor where it is now.
Note I don't have an opinion either way, though I do lean a bit more towards having a general QOL skill available sooner than one that is more specialized towards a certain way of playing. I would agree the best thing to do would be just to move Vigor so it can be unlocked first with Rapids, but this is ZOS, do we really think they'd be able to do that without busting both skill lines?
It's a not hard combat skills in a combat line should come before QOL the point is Cyrodiil is fighting Vigor helps that Rapids don't PvE should be calling for Rapids to be moved to Soul Magic. Don't mess up PvP for your time saver. In those few hours you can have a heal which means you can risk small fights vs a few hours of run fast.I use Rapids ALL the time. It's become quite automatic for me to press the skill button for it whenever I get on my mount for every character.
And I have a lot of alts that need skyshards for the purposes of doing daily crafting writs. I am not going to do 15 BGs on EACH and every one of my alts for a skill that, by all rights, I have already earned.
I do not understand why Vigor is an assault skill and why they can't just switch it with Siege Shield. I don't see anybody arguing for Siege Shield to stay where it is, and I don't understand why people want to make it harder to get Rapids just for the sake of making it harder to get Rapids instead of simply moving Vigor to Siege Shield's spot. There's a potential for everybody to be happy here; why should we not seize this potential?
Cause people use Siege Shield to not get showered in oils and PvP not only has skyshards you get skill points as you rank up so why not do a few BG or PvP you still get you're skill points
I thought the point to Cyrodil was to kill people and to be killed. Wouldn't making it HARDER to heal improve that? Its not like there arn't PLENTY of threads on the forums complaining about unkill able people that keep healing themselves.1 -
SshadowSscale✭✭✭✭✭Switch rapids with vigorI just love how the pve players are trying to make it sound like rapids is more important than vigor for pvp too.... Its not if you are a lowbie stam player having vigor is amazing because you can actually stay in the fight... Without it you die most of the time and then have to ride back..... Where rapids is a group buff.... And if you are on a lowbie you will most likely join a group in cyrodil.... And in that group someone will pop rapids meaning you fo not need it. And for bgs? Who needs rapids in bgs I would rather take vigor any day of the week over rapids for bgs.1 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is now
Just thought this was worth repeating.Assault rank 1: Rapid Manoeuvres
Support rank 1: Vigor
Logically Vigor as a heal is a support skill whereas Rapids is an assault skiil.
Simply rejigging the skill lines seems a solution that makes everyone happy. Unfortunately, as I've said many times in several threads, ZOS have a tendency to monkey's paw logic these things. When an alternative exists where everybody wins, why do we always end up with winner and loser decisions?
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SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is now
THIS. Without Rapids, people on new characters won't get to the fights in time, because the fighting will be over by the time they get there. They'll also get kicked out of groups because they won't be able to keep up with the rest of the group. If they die and have to travel back to the fighting alone, they won't even be able to benefit from a group member casting Rapids. This is just a poorly thought-out change, and I honestly can't imagine why anyone would be in favor of it.Vigor should be the first ability in the support line. Leave rapids where it is. PvP is painful without rapids so it should be easy to get as well.
They should just put Rapids as the first skill in the Soul Magic skill line instead, or leave it where it is but make Vigor unlockable at Alliance War rank 2 so that's quick to unlock as well.
3 -
Ratinira✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is nowNever used vigor on any of my 7 stam characters
Templar, Necro, Warden, Sorc... None of them ever died because of "oh if I only had that must-have vigor on my bar!"
Use rapid often enough, though.3 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep it as it is nowRapids is much more valuable for low lvl chars than vigor. This is true even for stam chars (at low lvl anyone is kind of hybrid anyway).
Not that i think "QOL" or trying to help new players has any relevance for ZOS' decision making. This thread is probably just reinforcing their idea on "How to sell the new grp mounts? Ah yes, let's just make slow players even slower, it might even increase the demand on crown riding lessons too!"
Edited by Rianai on July 16, 2020 9:23AM3 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭Other:CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points
These are the actual numbers to get to Alliance 5.
It's not much, trust me.
Contrary to popular belief, Rapids is absolutely not essential for PvE. It's a group buff anyway so the horse boost will be easy to get for everyone in those few Trials and Dungeons where fast mounts do make a difference. Only one group member needs it equipped.
But Rapids? That AP you need to get Alliance 5 is nothing. 98k AP is not a lot. It's a little bit of time in Cyrodiil. Actually, BG is plenty to do it. Make sure you take your daily quests as it'll speed things up a lot.
I dont know what to say about this that wont me get banned right away from forums. My mind is blown right now.
It's not much, trust me.
I ABSOLUTELY dont trust you even a BIT. Zero trust! Grinding that much alliance rank is absolutely grindy and boring. I will pick mount speed over vigor without any hesitation and I assure you I hate leveling assault line without vigor on my stam toon.
If ZoS thinks same as you and release this to live, it will make fnew player impression terrible.
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Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grinding to undaunted 9 is far longer than grinding to alliance rank 5. Imagine if they placed rapids at alliance rank 10? That's basically what every PvPer has to go through to get undaunted on each character. I'm down for having rapids at rank 1, just so long as the undaunted passives are at rank 1 too.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.1 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Keep it as it is nowZOS, please do not force all my worker ALTS into PvP.
They have almost no skill points but like using RAPIDS.
What could make sense: Make Vigor the FIRST UNDAUNTED skill.
Trapping web (which nobody I know is using) could be removed or placed last...
Edited by BalticBlues on July 16, 2020 9:54AM7 -
kaisernick✭✭✭✭✭Keep it as it is now
It exactly why i feel zeni has done this more in the hopes of selling riding lessons over actual player support, either that or they were really short sighted.newtinmpls wrote: »2-Look at BOTH PvP skill lines, for heaven's sakes - Vigor is NOT an attack -it's a defense! So put it first on the DEFENSE/Support line.5 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep it as it is nowSydneyGrey wrote: »
Just thought this was worth repeating.Assault rank 1: Rapid Manoeuvres
Support rank 1: Vigor
Logically Vigor as a heal is a support skill whereas Rapids is an assault skiil.
Simply rejigging the skill lines seems a solution that makes everyone happy. Unfortunately, as I've said many times in several threads, ZOS have a tendency to monkey's paw logic these things. When an alternative exists where everybody wins, why do we always end up with winner and loser decisions?
Indeed, the suspicious person in me thinks there is a reason that ZoS has decided to do it like this. Putting it in support just makes so much sense. The person doing PVP just for the skills isn't going to be using Siege Shield anyway, so why not do that?
They do that and all of a sudden all these silly arguments stop. Everyone is happy.So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.2 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other:In my playstyle, and the way I organize and play my characters, ALL of them need rapids, and all STAMINA need vigor.
Thus, mathematically, rapids is more important to me than vigor, so I'd say "keep it as it is".
But I'm also tired of having to parasite some friends or friends' groups in Cyro to get vigor to all my stam characters.
So in the end I wish BOTH were higher up in the skill lines. In fact rapids should be the 1st skill of assault and vigor the 1st skill of support.
But I think it's a useless debate, since, as many of you have already pointed out, the ultimate motivation of this change is to sell more crown riding lessons.
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Bucky_13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other:BalticBlues wrote: »ZOS, please do not force all my worker ALTS into PvP.
They have almost no skill points but like using RAPIDS.
What could make sense: Make Vigor the FIRST UNDAUNTED skill.
Trapping web (which nobody I know is using) could be removed or placed last...
This is just as bad, unless you can unlock it by doing a solo player quest without stepping into a dungeon. Many players hate group PvE but like to use vigor for their stam characters.
The solution that a lot of us are proposing is still a far more fair one: Swap Vigor to be the first ability of the Support tree, move Siege Shield to 2nd Assault ability. This means that everyone who wants either or both of Rapids and Vigor can obtain them by doing the Cyro intro quest, and gain a skill point in the process. Which means that if you hate PvP, you don't have to do actual PvP, you just have to port into a zone and do a quick quest.
Then you could also use your newly acquired skill to run away and pick up 2 skyshards fairly quick, again without having to fight another player unless your faction is gated, though that is a rare occurrence.Edited by Bucky_13 on July 16, 2020 11:31AM0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".
OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.
Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.
People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?
Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.
As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.
Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!
Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!
100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)
Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..
But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.
I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.
So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")
Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)
If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?
When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.
You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.
The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎
Access to a faster horse. 100% of characters can take advantage of it.
Less than 50% of characters can take advantage of vigor. (again, because some stamina classes have their own heals)
This is a false comparison. 100% of characters can use vigor same way 100% can use rapids.
The issue is the weight of consequence or opportunity cost for players.
Opportunity cost of fast horse for certain specs is death. Opportunity cost of vigor for all specs is slower horse.
You see the weight difference there? Inconvenience vs not having any reliable self heal
slow horse = not making ticks in cyrodiil = more time having to be in cyrodiil = death.
slow horse = lagging behind group, getting picked off by gankers = death.
They both lead to more death!
As others have said... Rapids should be ASSAULT 1... Vigor should be SUPPORT 1
Both unlock upon the tutorial. Everybody is happy.
There are unlimited ways they could have chosen to fix the stamina heal issue for sure, but again this is a false comparison because riding to keeps is not the only way to make alliance points.
Sure having a fast horse is more convenient for everything this is a given and rapids is basically required once you obtain it.
The fact remains though that you can get all pvp skills unlocked without ever fighting a player or riding to a keep.
Just buy repair kits with gold and travel to every keep you can by transit and repair every wall and door to 100%. Make sure you get the alliance buff from the closest delve to a portable keep.
More than likely you will also encounter resources at recently flipped keeps where you can get free AP by just being there.
The point is you dont need a horse to get AP.
Im not arguing against the concept of separating out a critical heal and a quality of life spell that would be silly
You could use the EXACT same argument for getting Vigor. You don't NEED vigor to get AP.
No need to actually fight anybody before it's unlocked, just repair walls.
I can't believe that people are actually advocating for taking away a major QOL skill (Rapids). Because it does actually take it away from those players who've already earned it. I've checked on the PTS. It's gone.
This forum EXPLODES about every little nerf under the sun. Yet, here is a nerf to gameplay that probably affects more players than most other nerfs have to date... "oh, it's okay, nerf away"
Sure and please don't confuse what im saying with supporting the base reasoning.
My opinion is rapids should be an overworld skill that is unlocked like soultrapjohnebrown wrote: »Cloudtrader wrote: »It is much more important to keep up with groups in PvP with Rapids early on with your non-leveled mount than it is to actually try to heal yourself in a fight. You're going to die anyway, but if you have Rapids you might have an actual chance not to get ganked from falling way far behind the group on your slow newbie pony.
That's very true.
But players who are interested in group PvP are more likely to actually engage Cyrodil in a serious way and therefore are probably going to end up getting a lot more AP than PvE players who don't even want to PvP in the first place and are just there to get a skill that lets them heal themselves.
But the same thing counts for rapids if it is switched as it does with vigor now for players who don't want to PvP. If someone does not want to participate in PvP, it's their own choice for missing out on skills.
That would be a valid point for people who do not currently have Rapids. However I already have it on 54 characters (3 full accounts). But my Assault level is 3 or less on ~50 of those characters. So I did what I had to do to get the skill I wanted. Now it seems they want to take it away unless I level 50 toons ( how long would that take for a PVP neophyte that doesn't like PVP?) or pay to level with crowns for 50 toons? Actually I can't even do that because I have no Assault level 10 toons.
You are the edge case and the game itself can not be balanced around these outliers.
You are inconvienced and the game itself is better for low level stam players.
Many > oneTl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.1 -
EvilAutoTech✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep it as it is nowThe stated reason for the change is to make healing on a stamina character more closely equivalent to healing on a magicka character. If that is truly the case, then Vigor should be moved out of the the alliance skill lines completely. It would make sense to have it as the first skill in either the fighter's guild or undaunted lines. Either way you would be able to unlock it at level 3 with a single, simple quest. And logically, both fighters and those wishing to prove their mettle would need access to a reliable self-heal.
I have 3 out of 110 currently active characters that would be affected by the change. It's not really a big deal to me either way. I just think ZOS is not choosing the best option to accomplish the stated goal and that their proposed solution would be one of the worst ways to achieve it.4 -
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✭Switch rapids with vigorwtlonewolf20 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".
OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.
Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.
People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?
Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.
As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.
Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!
Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!
100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)
Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..
But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.
I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.
So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")
Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)
If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?Kiralyn2000 wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.
Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.
That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")
...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.
(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)
its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)
I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.
edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.
do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.
and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?
Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.
PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.
I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?
this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.
PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.
***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***
This is a nerf to PvP, though. Without rapids, you are going to have a much harder time getting to fights on time.
I don’t understand why a heal is a nerf to PvP? I have been here since BETA when you didn’t even have a horse at all cost there were 50k, I was here when you had a 60 speed horse that you could not ride cause you were locked in combat.
It’s PvP live goes on it never mattered PvP didn’t stop cause you didn’t have a 60 speed rapids buffed horse now having a heal for stamina players is a buff.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".
OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.
Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.
People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?
Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.
As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.
Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!
Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!
100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)
Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..
But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.
I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.
So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")
Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)
If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?Kiralyn2000 wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »All the people who are ok with switching rapids and vigor all play stamina characters and do PvP regularly anyway.
Huh. I would have thought the people in favor of this are the Stam players who DON'T play PvP. Because if they did, it doesn't effect them either way, since they can get to rank 5 easily.Basically they want to force people to have to play PvP.
That's what people said constantly about Vigor over the years I've played. Because all the PvE Stam players who wanted to have a heal (as opposed to just being a bit faster) were forced to have to play PvP. (And whenever they asked for that to be improved, the PvPers tossed back "but we have to PvE to get gear for our PvP! It's only right that you PvE-only people be stuck getting farmed by us for a few days to get your heal!")
...I wonder if my lack of need for Rapid is that I started playing MMOs where getting to go faster was a lot harder/slower. In vanilla WoW (which was still more 'friendly' and accessible than previous games), you only got your first, slow mount at level 40. And the fast mount at level 60 cost 1000 gold, which was a huge amount for the time. Plus no porting to wayshrines from anywhere, you could only Hearthstone back to a single chosen Inn once every... hour(?), riding a Gryphon to travel to another zone took several minutes, no queuing for dungeons so you had to walk to them... so, yeah. Maybe I just don't see the basic mount & training in this game to be that bad? Eh, whatever.
(but I use fast travel in TES & Fallout constantly. Hmm. /ponder)
its weird, cause I started with those games as well and its the reason WHY i appreciate being able to go faster, sooner nowadays. heck even in WoW - not only you get mounts earlier nowadays, and they cost less, but if you are leveling alts and have been playing long enough, there is a mount that is usable at lvl 1. and... there are also 2 and 3 seater mounts... something ESO also adding (though it looks like its going to be crown only... sigh)
I know that the older I got, the less patience I have for padding of playtime via travel.
edited to add. as for the argument of "new players don't know what a fast horse is" really? are new players playing in their own instances, where they cannot see how quickly OTHER PLAYERS MOVE AROUND? new players don't have acess to chat to ask HOW are players moving so quickly? come. ON.
do you all know why there was no conversation about rapids? because IT IS A GIVEN. do you know how often I see people advise new players to go to Cyrodil at lvl 10 and pick up rapids by doing the quest that doesn't even involve pvp? EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
it used to be a given. there was no point in discussing it because it was there, it was accessible, it WORKED. there were no issues or problems with it. now... ZoS is MAKING it a problem.
and here is the thing. stam players having a stam heal available earlier IS a legitimate improvement. but... please.. riddle me this, folks. WHY does it have to come at a cost of quality of life that most of us have been enjoying for YEARS regardless of our class or specialization?
Both of you are missing the point NO PvP players who PvP will notice this day weeks months years you passed AvAvA lv5. This is a PvP skill PvE benefits are good but at the beginning and end of the day it's better for PvP players.
PvP players have to grind out boring PvE for all our other skills you think we all like doing the same dungeon with different bosses, no but we want Mettle. You think we see enough undead to level Fighters Guild in PvP no but we grind it to get Dawn Breaker. Deep Thoughts is great when your potions are on cooldown and you break LOS for a few solid second Psijic grind is long and boring but if you want it you have to grind. If you can't be bothered to do a few hours of PvP or BG the ask zos to move your speed to Soul Magic.
I'm NOT missing the point. YOU are. right now a LOT of players, especialy in PVE, are benefiting from this skill. do you think moving vigor up to make it accessible early is JUST for pvp players benefit? do you think zos is NOT aware of all the pve players grudgingly grinding out pvp to get vigor on some of their stam toons?
this is a change that negatively affects pve players quite possible more then pvp players. it. does NOT. HAVE. TO HAPPEN. THIS. WAY.
PvE players and PvE problems DO NOT MATTER for PvP PvE is just a part of the gamer PvP players have to do to. EVERY TIME something has been added to AvAvA PvE complain that it's too much for them to level PvP to get the skill they want PvP cost were lowered just so PvE players could get Vigor faster. PvE is slow, boring unrewarding, paint by numbers but PvP players suck it up.
***Tell ZoS you want rapids in Soul magic so it's there for everyone, if PvP players suck at PvE no one cares can't do a trial you don't get trial gear if you can do PvP you don't get PvP skills***
your opinion on pve is just that - your opinion. that said, are you SURE this change is for pvp players? because it sure doesn't sound like it to me. it sounds like a change to "help" pve players more so then pvp ones.
and again. like I said. as long as rapids are accessible as they are now? we are fine. YOU are defending ZoS making it LESS accessible for newer players.
just because the skill is in a "pvp" line doesn't make it any less of a pve skill. this is not new. this is NOT in any way different. its been this way for YEARS. vigor is something that PVE players are strongly encouraged to aquire. vigor is something that PVE players have been complaining about. its NOT being moved for pvp player benefit. and just because YOU personaly do not care for pve, does NOT eliminate the fact that pve is a large focus of this game.
That logic makes no sense it’s not a PvE just cause you use it Undaunted is as PvE as it gets but Undaunted Mettle is a must for PvP does that make it a PvP skill?
If you ONLY level Fighters Guild half way and they reorder the skill line to better help the people it was actually made for would PvP players get to complain? No. I don’t not like PvE fine that’s an opinion but.
That all the PvE players are complaining that they will have to level a skill line more to get a skill in that line just cause it’s more convenient to them just so you can do the bare minimum in of starting PvP and get out is a fact and a sad one.
More opinions
I have I don’t want to zombie or spell scar grind for Dawn Breaker lets make that easy to get.
I don’t want to port all over the map to get books so I can pop off meteors from the Mage Guild.
I don’t want to do any dungeons to get Undaunted Mettle, cause they all feel the same and it’s the same thing over and over and over again nothing changes in City of Ash it’s not any better the 18th time around.
I want to fish so I can get a lead for a killer set.
But what I want doesn’t matter cause you HAVE to do the skill lines to get those skills and passives. PvE players are not special if you want a PvP skill then PvP for it. Just like you do everything else.
you know what I can say to this? apply your rant to vigor. there. and leave the current skills alone as they are. want pvp skill? (vigor) then go pvp.
DONE.
dude. you need to listen to your own words sometimes.
you are creating this bizzare slippery slope over a QUALITY OF LIFE skill, by comparing it to COMBAT skills (which vigor also is)
P.S. the only class that I have hard time with as far as personal heals go - is nighblade. and THAT is a nighblade issue, NOT lack of early vigor issue.
Bizarre slippery slope literally everyone in this thread is making comparison so why point me out, cause I disagree with you?
The idea that in a skill line for a WAR ZONE that a healing power is unlocked before a Speed buff is not a hard thing to understand.
the idea that most classes have built in CLASS self heal on the other hand is apparently a rough one for you? I point YOU out because you are replying to me with arguments that are not thought through. but I can point out others as well.
the bizzare thing here is that you are arguing for a quality of life skill being pushed farther away. like you cannot see a world where they could fix self heal situation WITHOUT taking away quality of life ability 100% of the players can enjoy without having to grind for it.
let me try to put it in simplest terms I can
IT. is NOT. a ZERO. SUM. SITUATION. it shouldn't be anyway. GIVING PLAYERS STAMINA HEAL DOES NOT HAVE TO COME AT A COST OF QUALITY OF LIFE FEATURE. proper solution would be to leave rapids as they are and fix the heal situation in some other way. whether its by adjusting class abilities or moving vigor to support skill line instead of currently available shield LIKE ITS BEEN SUGGESTED MULTIPLE TIMES.
Every class doesn’t have build in self heal every MAGIC class does. If you can’t heal yourself out of combat without needing to deal damage it’s not a self heal.
No you can’t “fix” the problem by adding stamina class heals and you know it. To do that would be seen as taking a morph from magic to give to stamina players. Okay so let’s be both honest and realistic, hell let’s just look at what they are doing right now.
When addressing the lack of stamina on demand self heals what did they come up with? Changing unpopular morph of heals to stamina (we all know the skills that are just never picked) did they choose to do that? Did they come up with leaving Vigor where it is and make it possible for stamina builds of all classes to self heal like mages can, no they chose to move vigor cause they know the lack of stamina self heals is a problem and moving one skill that would *** all of PvE off was easier then fixing broken classes.
PvE and magic build in general would be pissed if they fixed classes by making more skill stamina. You know this everyone knows. When sorcs want Crystal Blast to be made a stamina morph Sorcs came out the woodworks saying they used it this happens time and time again well you can’t have it both ways. They can fix the healing imbalance or move vigor and well they chose to move Vigor.
you can still use magika heals as a stamina character. in fact - i prefer it cause it leaves me extra stamina for other combat skills/dodging/etc. I don't remember/haven't personaly seen any conversations as far as crystal blast, but i DO remember when they first messed with crit surge/power surge and THAT one was because originally it was morph for stam and morph for magika, and they decided to basically take away magika morph capabilities and making into a healing ability for HEALING sorcs, while leaving dps sorcs without a viable class ability more or less. as far as i can see, in general people are just fine with having stam and magika morphs per ability. as long as they provide roughly equal benefits/functionality. and more importantly. when something you used to have acess to is NOT arbitrarily taken away.
and yes. you can have it both ways. as people keep suggesting. MOVE. VIGOR. TO. SUPPORT. tada.
and i'm still not understanding WHY are you defending losing rapids.
You can't use magic heals as stamina and be okay you would need to invest in max magic and regen otherwise you will not be able to heal when you need to.
Moving Siege Shield is bad people use it on flags, wall breaches and not die while besieging down a wall or door it's used in PvP, a self heal usable sooner is needed in PvP they are PvP lines what's best for PvP is what needs to be done.
No one is losing Rapids you will just have to get more AP. This tread is just people not wanting to PvP.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »So...people are claiming that it's so easy to get to Rank 5, and that it doesn't take that long at all, so getting Rapids once it's moved won't be that hard.
By that logic then shouldn't Vigor be fine where it is, too? If it's not that hard to get, and doesn't take that long to unlock...then what does it matter if you're without that heal a few hours? You're not going to be without it so long that you're dying for days and days and days. The argument of "oh it would be so easy to unlock Rapids and not take that long" can apply to Vigor where it is now.
Note I don't have an opinion either way, though I do lean a bit more towards having a general QOL skill available sooner than one that is more specialized towards a certain way of playing. I would agree the best thing to do would be just to move Vigor so it can be unlocked first with Rapids, but this is ZOS, do we really think they'd be able to do that without busting both skill lines?
It's a not hard combat skills in a combat line should come before QOL the point is Cyrodiil is fighting Vigor helps that Rapids don't PvE should be calling for Rapids to be moved to Soul Magic. Don't mess up PvP for your time saver. In those few hours you can have a heal which means you can risk small fights vs a few hours of run fast.I use Rapids ALL the time. It's become quite automatic for me to press the skill button for it whenever I get on my mount for every character.
And I have a lot of alts that need skyshards for the purposes of doing daily crafting writs. I am not going to do 15 BGs on EACH and every one of my alts for a skill that, by all rights, I have already earned.
I do not understand why Vigor is an assault skill and why they can't just switch it with Siege Shield. I don't see anybody arguing for Siege Shield to stay where it is, and I don't understand why people want to make it harder to get Rapids just for the sake of making it harder to get Rapids instead of simply moving Vigor to Siege Shield's spot. There's a potential for everybody to be happy here; why should we not seize this potential?
Cause people use Siege Shield to not get showered in oils and PvP not only has skyshards you get skill points as you rank up so why not do a few BG or PvP you still get you're skill points
I thought the point to Cyrodil was to kill people and to be killed. Wouldn't making it HARDER to heal improve that? Its not like there arn't PLENTY of threads on the forums complaining about unkill able people that keep healing themselves.
Uh, no? The point of Cyrodiil is to win the campaign, for that you need to play the objectives. To accomplish said objectives you probably will have to kill other players because they will try to accomplishing the same goal while preventing you from accomplishing yours, but that's entirely secondary.0 -
Czeri✭✭✭✭✭Other:Here's the thing, contrary to what so many people here try to argue, rapids is not a crucial skill. There are loads of other options in the game for moving fast, from mount training, through armour sets, to swift jewellery. There's now even a mythical item you can get to make you fast! There are also plenty of other options to avoid aggroing mobs if you want to move around without interruptions.
Vigor is the only stamina heal available to most classes. It has always been insane of ZOS to lock it behind PvP, but this change will at least make it available to the huge number of players that don't like PvP.3
