Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

redgreensunset

Switch rapids with vigor

AlnilamE wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

So PvErs will have to spend MORE time in PvP to get rapids. *rubs paws together*

Lol wont happen. I predict the opposite, you will see Less PVErs in pvp. Maybe some more newer players, I typically only run the gauntlet for vigor. Rapids is most beneficial for new players. But smart PVErs will just do BGs. What you should expect is more dead weight In BGs because without rapids being first cyrodill will be a waste of time. So people will do BGs and if they are like me and just doing it for the skills they wont care if they lose. Your experience is probably going to be worse all around.

Personally I won't mind that so much.

As I say, if you're not planning on doing PvP long-term you do not need need Rapids outside a few specific Trials and Dungeon speedruns. Even then, only one of the group actually has to have rapids for the buff to be applied to everyone.

Vigor? It's more important than Rapids, and ignore the people saying that you'll "miss every battle".

You won't. Below-50 sieges are tense, and when everyone is fighting, they take a fair bit of time. Use the Transistus network accordingly and you will not miss battles. Not to mention that when you join a group, there is usually someone buffing the slower players with Rapids anyway. I usually take that role myself in groups. And yet I am also always at the front of sieges with ballistae because my build is very tanky and can survive up close. Funny how I can do that when I am first making sure the slow players arrive in time... I am far from the only person who does this, at least in the Ebonheart Pact. We're honestly quite nice under the Dragon Banner.

Unfortunately right now, a lot of those slower players then die because they are using a stamina build as most PvP'ers do, they do not have an effective self-heal. Rapids is not going to save them here. Vigor will. And before the morph they'll be healing the rest of the group too. Possibly more so if they choose the group heal morph. Depends on where PvP takes them later down the line.

Suffice to say, if you play Cyrodiil as a group, which you really should at low level, then not having Rapids for a few hours will not hurt. The fact it means you get a powerful stamina heal right off the bat is even better.

As for PvE players not sticking around? Honestly, that is a good thing. I know PvE players often do not enjoy PvP. This change means they get the skill they need for staying alive, for free. I fail to see how Rapids will keep you alive in vCR if you're a StamDD and get sent underground. Vigor however, will. Each PvE player getting what they need quickly frees a PvP slot for someone who actually wants to PvP.

I am not interested in ganking. I always try to let DC/AD players go in towns if they yield and ignore capture flags when I raise my shield, so they can do their quests. I want to fight people who can fight back, and quite possibly, and probably, beat me. Because that's how I improve in PvP.

So when you are PvPing in a group, you run rapids, but you don't have a healer to heal the people without self-heals?

Have you ever been in a group siege in Cyrodiil? Or played a healer in a group there? Because if you have done either more than a couple of times then you'd realize how deeply flawed your argument is.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Other:

Bucky_13 wrote: »

This is just as bad, unless you can unlock it by doing a solo player quest without stepping into a dungeon. Many players hate group PvE but like to use vigor for their stam characters.

There is a daily delve quest given by the undaunted each day, it's a solo quest and it counts towards XP in the undaunted skill line.
Also if I remember correctly, the first skill of the undaunted skill line is unlocked by simply entering the first dungeon (i.e. Spindleclutch for a DC character), you don't have to complete it and you don't even have to fight a mob in there.

EvilAutoTech

Keep it as it is now

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

This is just as bad, unless you can unlock it by doing a solo player quest without stepping into a dungeon. Many players hate group PvE but like to use vigor for their stam characters.

There is a daily delve quest given by the undaunted each day, it's a solo quest and it counts towards XP in the undaunted skill line.
Also if I remember correctly, the first skill of the undaunted skill line is unlocked by simply entering the first dungeon (i.e. Spindleclutch for a DC character), you don't have to complete it and you don't even have to fight a mob in there.

I don't know about DC, all my characters get it in Stonefalls, but you don't even have to go inside the dungeon anymore.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Switch rapids with vigor

caperb wrote: »

Rapid Maneuver is one of the most important skills in the game on EVERY character, especially at low levels.

Since when? I am 5 1/2 years here (since Beta), outside cyrodiil and running through overland, is only used by unsocial players, running alone rushing dungeon, screwing peoples dungeon quest because they do not wait for dialogue to go through.

Vigor is more widely used by every character, including magicka users if class doesn't have access to good self heal. Also Caltrops should be brought up the chain as this should be brought up the level requirement also.

Finally do not forget, if Vigor becomes first skill, makes it also a Tier 1 skill and easier to level than a Tier 5 skill like Poison Arrow. Seems you forgot that.

AlnilamE

Keep it as it is now

redgreensunset wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

So PvErs will have to spend MORE time in PvP to get rapids. *rubs paws together*

Lol wont happen. I predict the opposite, you will see Less PVErs in pvp. Maybe some more newer players, I typically only run the gauntlet for vigor. Rapids is most beneficial for new players. But smart PVErs will just do BGs. What you should expect is more dead weight In BGs because without rapids being first cyrodill will be a waste of time. So people will do BGs and if they are like me and just doing it for the skills they wont care if they lose. Your experience is probably going to be worse all around.

Personally I won't mind that so much.

As I say, if you're not planning on doing PvP long-term you do not need need Rapids outside a few specific Trials and Dungeon speedruns. Even then, only one of the group actually has to have rapids for the buff to be applied to everyone.

Vigor? It's more important than Rapids, and ignore the people saying that you'll "miss every battle".

You won't. Below-50 sieges are tense, and when everyone is fighting, they take a fair bit of time. Use the Transistus network accordingly and you will not miss battles. Not to mention that when you join a group, there is usually someone buffing the slower players with Rapids anyway. I usually take that role myself in groups. And yet I am also always at the front of sieges with ballistae because my build is very tanky and can survive up close. Funny how I can do that when I am first making sure the slow players arrive in time... I am far from the only person who does this, at least in the Ebonheart Pact. We're honestly quite nice under the Dragon Banner.

Unfortunately right now, a lot of those slower players then die because they are using a stamina build as most PvP'ers do, they do not have an effective self-heal. Rapids is not going to save them here. Vigor will. And before the morph they'll be healing the rest of the group too. Possibly more so if they choose the group heal morph. Depends on where PvP takes them later down the line.

Suffice to say, if you play Cyrodiil as a group, which you really should at low level, then not having Rapids for a few hours will not hurt. The fact it means you get a powerful stamina heal right off the bat is even better.

As for PvE players not sticking around? Honestly, that is a good thing. I know PvE players often do not enjoy PvP. This change means they get the skill they need for staying alive, for free. I fail to see how Rapids will keep you alive in vCR if you're a StamDD and get sent underground. Vigor however, will. Each PvE player getting what they need quickly frees a PvP slot for someone who actually wants to PvP.

I am not interested in ganking. I always try to let DC/AD players go in towns if they yield and ignore capture flags when I raise my shield, so they can do their quests. I want to fight people who can fight back, and quite possibly, and probably, beat me. Because that's how I improve in PvP.

So when you are PvPing in a group, you run rapids, but you don't have a healer to heal the people without self-heals?

Have you ever been in a group siege in Cyrodiil? Or played a healer in a group there? Because if you have done either more than a couple of times then you'd realize how deeply flawed your argument is.

My magicka characters in PvP are either Healers or back bar a resto staff.

AlnilamE

Keep it as it is now

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

This is just as bad, unless you can unlock it by doing a solo player quest without stepping into a dungeon. Many players hate group PvE but like to use vigor for their stam characters.

There is a daily delve quest given by the undaunted each day, it's a solo quest and it counts towards XP in the undaunted skill line.
Also if I remember correctly, the first skill of the undaunted skill line is unlocked by simply entering the first dungeon (i.e. Spindleclutch for a DC character), you don't have to complete it and you don't even have to fight a mob in there.

Also note that getting the "This one's on me" achievement (buying a drink for the Undaunted at each of the base zones) also give XP in the Undaunted line. We do that as a guild activity for St. Patrick's Day.

Ratinira

Keep it as it is now

Czeri wrote: »

Here's the thing, contrary to what so many people here try to argue, rapids is not a crucial skill. There are loads of other options in the game for moving fast, from mount training, through armour sets, to swift jewellery. There's now even a mythical item you can get to make you fast! There are also plenty of other options to avoid aggroing mobs if you want to move around without interruptions.

So if you are a lvl 10 character who want to move faster - train your mount! Just buy that from crown store XD
Great option!.. for Zos.

And if you are a high lvl character then just carry a special item set to put it on each time you sit on horse

Czeri wrote: »

Vigor is the only stamina heal available to most classes. It has always been insane of ZOS to lock it behind PvP, but this change will at least make it available to the huge number of players that don't like PvP.

Here's the thing, contrary to what so many people here try to argue, vigor is not a crusial skill.
There are a lot of option for you to be healed: special armor sets, potions, friend-healer... You may even create a new mag-character!

Why all people who want to move faster must be affected because of small group of pvp-haters who cannot heal themselves?

That arguments work both ways XD

caperb

Keep it as it is now

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Vigor is more widely used by every character, including magicka users if class doesn't have access to good self heal.

LOL

No matter what your opinion on this subject is, what you are stating here is just so wrong. First of all, rapids is the more widely used skill. Also, all magicka classes can slot a resto staff if they have no self heal in their toolkit. In fact, low leveled stamina players can use their magicka class heals very effectively as well because of attribute level scaling.

A low level player with only rapids can unlock vigor easily because he has speed.
A low level player with only vigor will have a hard time unlocking rapids because he is too slow.
A levelled player without access to both skills, well, then it's your own fault.

Czeri

Other:

Ratinira wrote: »

Here's the thing, contrary to what so many people here try to argue, vigor is not a crusial skill.
There are a lot of option for you to be healed: special armor sets, potions, friend-healer... You may even create a new mag-character!

Why all people who want to move faster must be affected because of small group of pvp-haters who cannot heal themselves?

That arguments work both ways XD

Try completing vet Maelstrom Arena without Vigor on a stam character and then tell me how it's not crucial.

tmbrinks

Czeri wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

Here's the thing, contrary to what so many people here try to argue, vigor is not a crusial skill.
There are a lot of option for you to be healed: special armor sets, potions, friend-healer... You may even create a new mag-character!

Why all people who want to move faster must be affected because of small group of pvp-haters who cannot heal themselves?

That arguments work both ways XD

Try completing vet Maelstrom Arena without Vigor on a stam character and then tell me how it's not crucial.

That's exactly the point. Yes, Vigor may be crucial for specific builds in specific content. (I bet I could clear vMA on a StamSorc w/o Vigor )

And if you want to run vMA (which probably less than 10% of the player base has actually cleared, probably even less on stam, since it is more difficult), then you can get Vigor

But, for every stam player that is clearing vMA, there are probably 10 overland solo players for whom rapids is a much used skill.

Ratinira

Keep it as it is now

Czeri wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

Here's the thing, contrary to what so many people here try to argue, vigor is not a crusial skill.
There are a lot of option for you to be healed: special armor sets, potions, friend-healer... You may even create a new mag-character!

Why all people who want to move faster must be affected because of small group of pvp-haters who cannot heal themselves?

That arguments work both ways XD

Try completing vet Maelstrom Arena without Vigor on a stam character and then tell me how it's not crucial.

Does that mean that is is crutial for mag characters?
Does that mean that is is crutial for low lvl charactets?
Does that mean that is is crutial for non-endgame-content character?

If something is useless or not useful for majority of people it's usefulness is very niche

PizzaCat82

Other:

I wonder if its a techincal issue that prevents them from making both Vigor and Rapids require the same level in Assault.

Otherwise why not give people both?

wolfie1.0.

Keep it as it is now

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.

You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.

The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎

Access to a faster horse. 100% of characters can take advantage of it.

Less than 50% of characters can take advantage of vigor. (again, because some stamina classes have their own heals)

This is a false comparison. 100% of characters can use vigor same way 100% can use rapids.

The issue is the weight of consequence or opportunity cost for players.

Opportunity cost of fast horse for certain specs is death. Opportunity cost of vigor for all specs is slower horse.

You see the weight difference there? Inconvenience vs not having any reliable self heal

slow horse = not making ticks in cyrodiil = more time having to be in cyrodiil = death.
slow horse = lagging behind group, getting picked off by gankers = death.

They both lead to more death!

As others have said... Rapids should be ASSAULT 1... Vigor should be SUPPORT 1

Both unlock upon the tutorial. Everybody is happy.

There are unlimited ways they could have chosen to fix the stamina heal issue for sure, but again this is a false comparison because riding to keeps is not the only way to make alliance points.

Sure having a fast horse is more convenient for everything this is a given and rapids is basically required once you obtain it.

The fact remains though that you can get all pvp skills unlocked without ever fighting a player or riding to a keep.

Just buy repair kits with gold and travel to every keep you can by transit and repair every wall and door to 100%. Make sure you get the alliance buff from the closest delve to a portable keep.

More than likely you will also encounter resources at recently flipped keeps where you can get free AP by just being there.

The point is you dont need a horse to get AP.

Im not arguing against the concept of separating out a critical heal and a quality of life spell that would be silly

You could use the EXACT same argument for getting Vigor. You don't NEED vigor to get AP.

No need to actually fight anybody before it's unlocked, just repair walls.

I can't believe that people are actually advocating for taking away a major QOL skill (Rapids). Because it does actually take it away from those players who've already earned it. I've checked on the PTS. It's gone.

This forum EXPLODES about every little nerf under the sun. Yet, here is a nerf to gameplay that probably affects more players than most other nerfs have to date... "oh, it's okay, nerf away"

Sure and please don't confuse what im saying with supporting the base reasoning.

My opinion is rapids should be an overworld skill that is unlocked like soultrap

johnebrown wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

It is much more important to keep up with groups in PvP with Rapids early on with your non-leveled mount than it is to actually try to heal yourself in a fight. You're going to die anyway, but if you have Rapids you might have an actual chance not to get ganked from falling way far behind the group on your slow newbie pony.

That's very true.

But players who are interested in group PvP are more likely to actually engage Cyrodil in a serious way and therefore are probably going to end up getting a lot more AP than PvE players who don't even want to PvP in the first place and are just there to get a skill that lets them heal themselves.

But the same thing counts for rapids if it is switched as it does with vigor now for players who don't want to PvP. If someone does not want to participate in PvP, it's their own choice for missing out on skills.

That would be a valid point for people who do not currently have Rapids. However I already have it on 54 characters (3 full accounts). But my Assault level is 3 or less on ~50 of those characters. So I did what I had to do to get the skill I wanted. Now it seems they want to take it away unless I level 50 toons ( how long would that take for a PVP neophyte that doesn't like PVP?) or pay to level with crowns for 50 toons? Actually I can't even do that because I have no Assault level 10 toons.

You are the edge case and the game itself can not be balanced around these outliers.

You are inconvienced and the game itself is better for low level stam players.

Many > one

By your own logic then the change shouldn't happen. Because increased mobility is a function that ALL builds, classes, races, playstyles, can use to enhance their gameplay and functionality. Vigor only impacts a portion of that, you cant tell me that a magicka dps or healer slots this skill. Even if you add a weighted value to it, vigor is only slotted in the Stamina DPS builds when you dont have enough healers or in certain PVP conditions. I'm not saying it's not important. It's just that it's not AS important or as used as rapids.

DigitalHype

Keep it as it is now

eKsDee wrote: »

This is insane. Just. ***. Swap. Vigor. With. Siege. Shield. Fixes this entire situation, without screwing either player. Siege Shield is only used in PvP, Vigor is only used by stamina, Rapids is used by everyone. In addition, Siege Shield is only used by support roles in PvP, so not every player needs it. Rapids is used by everyone, in both PvP and PvE, so every player should have access to it. Anybody arguing against this is just being selfish, or are living under a beautifully furnished rock.

They know this. Unfortunately, it's why they are doing it. They have a much larger potential customer base for mount speed upgrades in the crown store. So, they are intentionally making it more time consuming to get rapids in the hope that people will spend a few real dollars to get mount training speed upgrades. The unfortunate truth is they are right. It will make a measure increase in sales of that item.

Every decision made has to go through consideration for monetization. Sometimes monetization wins, and the game loses.

yodased

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

When they swapped snipe and poison injection it was the same exact way. If you had poison injection (first) and not snipe (last) they swapped.

You are also very self centered here. You don't want to pvp on characters you built to maximize gold in game so the game status quo should remain around that.

The individual player is irrelevant. What is best for the player base? Access to the only stamina heal over time or a faster 🐎

Access to a faster horse. 100% of characters can take advantage of it.

Less than 50% of characters can take advantage of vigor. (again, because some stamina classes have their own heals)

This is a false comparison. 100% of characters can use vigor same way 100% can use rapids.

The issue is the weight of consequence or opportunity cost for players.

Opportunity cost of fast horse for certain specs is death. Opportunity cost of vigor for all specs is slower horse.

You see the weight difference there? Inconvenience vs not having any reliable self heal

slow horse = not making ticks in cyrodiil = more time having to be in cyrodiil = death.
slow horse = lagging behind group, getting picked off by gankers = death.

They both lead to more death!

As others have said... Rapids should be ASSAULT 1... Vigor should be SUPPORT 1

Both unlock upon the tutorial. Everybody is happy.

There are unlimited ways they could have chosen to fix the stamina heal issue for sure, but again this is a false comparison because riding to keeps is not the only way to make alliance points.

Sure having a fast horse is more convenient for everything this is a given and rapids is basically required once you obtain it.

The fact remains though that you can get all pvp skills unlocked without ever fighting a player or riding to a keep.

Just buy repair kits with gold and travel to every keep you can by transit and repair every wall and door to 100%. Make sure you get the alliance buff from the closest delve to a portable keep.

More than likely you will also encounter resources at recently flipped keeps where you can get free AP by just being there.

The point is you dont need a horse to get AP.

Im not arguing against the concept of separating out a critical heal and a quality of life spell that would be silly

You could use the EXACT same argument for getting Vigor. You don't NEED vigor to get AP.

No need to actually fight anybody before it's unlocked, just repair walls.

I can't believe that people are actually advocating for taking away a major QOL skill (Rapids). Because it does actually take it away from those players who've already earned it. I've checked on the PTS. It's gone.

This forum EXPLODES about every little nerf under the sun. Yet, here is a nerf to gameplay that probably affects more players than most other nerfs have to date... "oh, it's okay, nerf away"

Sure and please don't confuse what im saying with supporting the base reasoning.

My opinion is rapids should be an overworld skill that is unlocked like soultrap

johnebrown wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

It is much more important to keep up with groups in PvP with Rapids early on with your non-leveled mount than it is to actually try to heal yourself in a fight. You're going to die anyway, but if you have Rapids you might have an actual chance not to get ganked from falling way far behind the group on your slow newbie pony.

That's very true.

But players who are interested in group PvP are more likely to actually engage Cyrodil in a serious way and therefore are probably going to end up getting a lot more AP than PvE players who don't even want to PvP in the first place and are just there to get a skill that lets them heal themselves.

But the same thing counts for rapids if it is switched as it does with vigor now for players who don't want to PvP. If someone does not want to participate in PvP, it's their own choice for missing out on skills.

That would be a valid point for people who do not currently have Rapids. However I already have it on 54 characters (3 full accounts). But my Assault level is 3 or less on ~50 of those characters. So I did what I had to do to get the skill I wanted. Now it seems they want to take it away unless I level 50 toons ( how long would that take for a PVP neophyte that doesn't like PVP?) or pay to level with crowns for 50 toons? Actually I can't even do that because I have no Assault level 10 toons.

You are the edge case and the game itself can not be balanced around these outliers.

You are inconvienced and the game itself is better for low level stam players.

Many > one

By your own logic then the change shouldn't happen. Because increased mobility is a function that ALL builds, classes, races, playstyles, can use to enhance their gameplay and functionality. Vigor only impacts a portion of that, you cant tell me that a magicka dps or healer slots this skill. Even if you add a weighted value to it, vigor is only slotted in the Stamina DPS builds when you dont have enough healers or in certain PVP conditions. I'm not saying it's not important. It's just that it's not AS important or as used as rapids.

See though i was never arguing for should or shouldn't. I was presenting reasoning for why the choice makes sense.

My personal opinion is mount speed should be tied to an overland skill and bot pvp, but my opinion is irrelevant so I discuss the actual facts

VoxAdActa

Switch rapids with vigor

ITT: "Stamina builds can go to hell, only stupid people run stamina anyway. My horsie will be slower and it's an INCREDIBLE INCONVENIENCE."

I also love seeing all these people say that stam builds have class heals they can use. Sure, just let me pop out a Funnel Health as a stamblade, which heals me for less than my natural health regen and requires combat to do it. This is CLEARLY a thread of stamphobia.

caperb

Keep it as it is now

VoxAdActa wrote: »

ITT: "Stamina builds can go to hell, only stupid people run stamina anyway. My horsie will be slower and it's an INCREDIBLE INCONVENIENCE."

I also love seeing all these people say that stam builds have class heals they can use. Sure, just let me pop out a Funnel Health as a stamblade, which heals me for less than my natural health regen and requires combat to do it. This is CLEARLY a thread of stamphobia.

With rapids unlocked you have enough time to easily unlock vigor before you even need it...

The other way around, will be horrible.

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

VoxAdActa wrote: »

ITT: "Stamina builds can go to hell, only stupid people run stamina anyway. My horsie will be slower and it's an INCREDIBLE INCONVENIENCE."

I also love seeing all these people say that stam builds have class heals they can use. Sure, just let me pop out a Funnel Health as a stamblade, which heals me for less than my natural health regen and requires combat to do it. This is CLEARLY a thread of stamphobia.

no one is saying that stamina builds should go to hell, and MULTIPLE poeple have acknowledged that stamblades got a serious short stick here, but that doesn't mean that in order to fix issues for not even all classes, some of the classes and some of the specs within those classes - ALL THE CLASSES should lose quality of life functionality.

on every single page people offer suggestions on how stamina classes that are lacking in reliable heal - can be improved WITHOUT taking something away from EVERYONE in a process. (my fave being swap vigor into support line and place it in first spot, so that when you do your intro quest in cyrodill - you get BOTH rapids AND vigor)

but sure... lets build another strawman.

AlnilamE

Keep it as it is now

VoxAdActa wrote: »

ITT: "Stamina builds can go to hell, only stupid people run stamina anyway. My horsie will be slower and it's an INCREDIBLE INCONVENIENCE."

I also love seeing all these people say that stam builds have class heals they can use. Sure, just let me pop out a Funnel Health as a stamblade, which heals me for less than my natural health regen and requires combat to do it. This is CLEARLY a thread of stamphobia.

No, people are suggesting that Vigor be moved to the first skill in Support to make everyone happy.

The people who are arguing against doing that are saying it would take no time to grind Rapids again on ALL our characters. By that logic, it would take even less time to leave things as they are and only grind Vigor on HALF our characters.

Edit: And my stamblade uses Mark Target in PvE to heal.

Tandor

Switch rapids with vigor

I've read some arguments on both sides of this one, and on balance I'm happy to stick with the change as part of an overall balancing review.

I wouldn't, however, want to over-estimate the number of players who use either of these particular skills, especially at the levels where this change may have an impact on those that do use either or both of them. One of the weaknesses of the case put by those opposed to the change is the claim that absolutely everyone uses these skills, or at least Rapids, especially at low level and I don't believe that's true.

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

Tandor wrote: »

I've read some arguments on both sides of this one, and on balance I'm happy to stick with the change as part of an overall balancing review.

I wouldn't, however, want to over-estimate the number of players who use either of these particular skills, especially at the levels where this change may have an impact on those that do use either or both of them. One of the weaknesses of the case put by those opposed to the change is the claim that absolutely everyone uses these skills, or at least Rapids, especially at low level and I don't believe that's true.

no.

the argument is that rapids is USEFUL and usable for everyone right now. NOT that everyone uses it.

vigor is only useful to stamina builds. and not every stamina build uses it either.


so. utility that is useful for some vs useful for all. even if you account for people who chose not to use either ability - usefulness of rapids is still higher then usefulness of vigor. that is NOT to say that it means that there isn't an issue with self healing for some of the stamina builds. but the fix, IMO and not just my opinion - should NOT come at the cost of the utility that is helpful and useful for ALL builds.

redgreensunset

Switch rapids with vigor

caperb wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

ITT: "Stamina builds can go to hell, only stupid people run stamina anyway. My horsie will be slower and it's an INCREDIBLE INCONVENIENCE."

I also love seeing all these people say that stam builds have class heals they can use. Sure, just let me pop out a Funnel Health as a stamblade, which heals me for less than my natural health regen and requires combat to do it. This is CLEARLY a thread of stamphobia.

With rapids unlocked you have enough time to easily unlock vigor before you even need it...

The other way around, will be horrible.

Since when are BGs easier with Rapis?

redgreensunset

Switch rapids with vigor

AlnilamE wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

ITT: "Stamina builds can go to hell, only stupid people run stamina anyway. My horsie will be slower and it's an INCREDIBLE INCONVENIENCE."

I also love seeing all these people say that stam builds have class heals they can use. Sure, just let me pop out a Funnel Health as a stamblade, which heals me for less than my natural health regen and requires combat to do it. This is CLEARLY a thread of stamphobia.

No, people are suggesting that Vigor be moved to the first skill in Support to make everyone happy.

The people who are arguing against doing that are saying it would take no time to grind Rapids again on ALL our characters. By that logic, it would take even less time to leave things as they are and only grind Vigor on HALF our characters.

Edit: And my stamblade uses Mark Target in PvE to heal.

Not everyone are arguing against it with a "it's fast to regrind it". Some of us favors a, "yes that would be ideal but it might not be technically possible within the resources allocated".

JR_Returns

I have two game accounts and I play on both servers. Everyone of my characters uses Rapids and non of the them use Vigor.

If ZOS think that I'm going to do PvP to get Rapids again they are very wrong. I play this game for fun and I don't find anything fun about PvP.

Guyle

Keep it as it is now

This is such a dumb issue, clearly a lot of ppl want to have access to rapids immediately, a lot of ppl want to have vigor available immediately, and ZOS themselves said they wanna make it easier for stam. So ZOS, just make it happen, stop making a change where a lot of ppl are going to dislike it, or a lot of ppl feel like they aren't getting what they want. EASY and SIMPLE fix, make them both available immediately.

Like braindead dumb issue ZOS, no need to draw a line in the sand, just give us these tiny things we want for QoL so we stop feeling screwed over by you guys constantly. You only earn so much good graces when you give us stuff we want, and then burn through it with performance and changes like this. Stop it, get some help.

Wolf_Eye

Keep it as it is now

JR_Returns wrote: »

I have two game accounts and I play on both servers. Everyone of my characters uses Rapids and non of the them use Vigor.

If ZOS think that I'm going to do PvP to get Rapids again they are very wrong. I play this game for fun and I don't find anything fun about PvP.

I just bought a second copy of the game to make a second account about a week ago so that I could make more characters (I enjoy making characters). But now that I know they're going to be slow as heck with Rapids gone, I'm really regretting it. Maybe I should see about getting my money back.

Tandor

Switch rapids with vigor

Linaleah wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I've read some arguments on both sides of this one, and on balance I'm happy to stick with the change as part of an overall balancing review.

I wouldn't, however, want to over-estimate the number of players who use either of these particular skills, especially at the levels where this change may have an impact on those that do use either or both of them. One of the weaknesses of the case put by those opposed to the change is the claim that absolutely everyone uses these skills, or at least Rapids, especially at low level and I don't believe that's true.

no.

the argument is that rapids is USEFUL and usable for everyone right now. NOT that everyone uses it.

vigor is only useful to stamina builds. and not every stamina build uses it either.


so. utility that is useful for some vs useful for all. even if you account for people who chose not to use either ability - usefulness of rapids is still higher then usefulness of vigor. that is NOT to say that it means that there isn't an issue with self healing for some of the stamina builds. but the fix, IMO and not just my opinion - should NOT come at the cost of the utility that is helpful and useful for ALL builds.

Really?

haelene wrote: »

This is the only change I hated from the patch. Everyone uses rapids. Not everyone uses vigor on every character. It doesn't make sense to me to capitulate to the portion of characters who use vigor at the expense of everyone.

That's just one example.

Marto

Switch rapids with vigor

Vigor should just be part of the Fighter's Guild skill line.

Simple as that.

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

Tandor wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I've read some arguments on both sides of this one, and on balance I'm happy to stick with the change as part of an overall balancing review.

I wouldn't, however, want to over-estimate the number of players who use either of these particular skills, especially at the levels where this change may have an impact on those that do use either or both of them. One of the weaknesses of the case put by those opposed to the change is the claim that absolutely everyone uses these skills, or at least Rapids, especially at low level and I don't believe that's true.

no.

the argument is that rapids is USEFUL and usable for everyone right now. NOT that everyone uses it.

vigor is only useful to stamina builds. and not every stamina build uses it either.


so. utility that is useful for some vs useful for all. even if you account for people who chose not to use either ability - usefulness of rapids is still higher then usefulness of vigor. that is NOT to say that it means that there isn't an issue with self healing for some of the stamina builds. but the fix, IMO and not just my opinion - should NOT come at the cost of the utility that is helpful and useful for ALL builds.

Really?

haelene wrote: »

This is the only change I hated from the patch. Everyone uses rapids. Not everyone uses vigor on every character. It doesn't make sense to me to capitulate to the portion of characters who use vigor at the expense of everyone.

That's just one example.

right. semantics of phrasing. because that's what matters here. not the core issue.

Kadoin

I never slot either on my stam or mag builds in Cyro nor anywhere else. But this thread is very entertaining. I needed it with my afternoon tea!