Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

SpiderKnight

Other:

Ursinos wrote: »

I may have missed it in all the posts in this thread...

but does anyone else have the cynical thought that this change is more about Zos wanting to drive more people to spending crowns on riding lesson packs in the crown store, than actually helping stam characters?

I mean, I'm not saying the thought is correct, but it keeps coming to me

I kinda thought this too. Look at Zos' history with tricking new/misinformed people into buying WW and Vamp cures in the crown store. They went as far as ruining the skill line and causing a massive revolt, then putting the cures front and center on sale during that same period.

Sharlikran

I hate PVP with an unmeasurable amount of angst. To be forced to get to rank 5 in a skill line I despise and don't use just have have rapid maneuver. I don't want to earn back what I had already, it's stupid. On the first page I saw a post that showed how much you AP you need to have. So that's fine if you want to make the change give me a token for 98,000 AP for any of my chars with the riding skill. Then I won't care. Because I won't PVP unless I am forced to do so for an event and I will still have rapid maneuver that I use all the time.

I can survive just fine without vigor I do not go around dying all the time but I do ride around and use rapid maneuver. In addition to that it's not even that great of a self heal. If it's truly meant for the leveling experience and to keep you from dying then make it cpst 2K stamina. On my level 19 Templar it will cost 6885 Stamina.

There is the other suggestion to move it to a different skill like. I wouldn't mind that either. To a skill like where I don't have to PVP or do trials or something I never do in order to earn it. Move it to world or the support skill line.

All of my chars have whatever kind of self heal move I can get from whichever skill line. It's sufficient.

rpa

Keep it as it is now

Raise base untrained mount speed to whatever it is with major gallop and replace rapids with some useful PvP skill. This way you can completely remove major gallop & get rid of another computation without annoying anyone (but the store goblin pushing riding lessons).

Onigar

Other:

I chose Other because I believe the change will go ahead anyway.

Even though it looks like a small change to some people it has a large impact on my 2 accounts and 36 chars will mean to get Rapids active on all again I will need to level up 21 chars in PVP.

It is just extra and unwanted character activity to be done when I already have a busy time managing the selection of chars I play.

However I guess the effect is similar to ZOS changing a popular gear set so it becomes almost useless so players need to go and spend time farming for a replacement set. This and similar changes just adds a time penalty on the player base.

So my final thought is maybe it is now time to look at getting all my chars levelled in PVP so Alliance skills are both at 10.

Guyle

Keep it as it is now

Ughhh, its all these little things that they keep doing to make the game less fun or more work that make me log in less and less, and not look forward to logging in anymore

redgreensunset

Switch rapids with vigor

The amount of backseat coders with no clue that infest this thread continues to impress.

SshadowSscale

Switch rapids with vigor

idk wrote: »

CombatPrayer wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I have a lot of stam characters, and when I'm levelling them, having a slow horse is worse than not having vigour. Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag, since most skills start as mag, and there's always a mag self heal available. I still grind vigour/caltrops as soon as I can enter Cyro, it's not a lot of AP, but I think rapids are more useful to my lowbies.

That's not true. Nightblades don't have a self-heal. Trying to play a stamblade with a resto staff doesn't work.

That is something that ZOS should fix then. It's always been a *** design that it doesn't have a self heal. Perhaps they should address that issue rather than screwing with a whole line that is only available through PVP.

Actually, NBs do have self heals. That person is probably speaking only to stamina based which I cannot think of a class heal that is stamina based in any of the original four classes. Off the top of my head, the class-based heals among the original classes scale off magicka, damage done (but still magicka), or missing health. I might be missing something.

Aight go make a stamblade and tell me how great of a self heal strive is when you realize it ticks for less than your health recovery...... But oh no stamina nb heal is op no need for stamina nightblades to get vigor because stamina nightblade has best heal... While you are at it grind out bgs on said stamblade and tell me how much rapids helped you with that compared to how much vigor would have helped.... And yes bgs are the quickest and easiest way ti grind out the skill line

Ryath_Waylander

VaranisArano wrote: »

If Vigor becomes the 1st Assault skill, then Rapids should be the 2nd.

Everyone saying "AP is easy to make in Cyrodiil" is missing that it's a lot harder to make AP on a new character with a slow mount when you keep missing fights because it takes forever to get places.

This is so true. Almost the first thing I do when levelling a new toon is hit Cyrodiil. With a noob horse, my group's rapids is only available to me for the first cast. By the time 20sec (or however long it lasts) rolls around, I am far behind and need to cast it myself. I prefer being the underdog in the campaign, because there is more action, trying to claw ground back, but this results in looooong gallops. Without rapids, I have to anticipate the fights and just shortcut straight to the next objective because I will only reach every second place before it's taken. Obviously everyone will be affected differently, depending on their priority skill but for me ,this will be a crummy change. Like with everything else they do, I will just grind my teeth and bear it because no amount of complaining seems to change their mind.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Switch rapids with vigor

SshadowSscale wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CombatPrayer wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I have a lot of stam characters, and when I'm levelling them, having a slow horse is worse than not having vigour. Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag, since most skills start as mag, and there's always a mag self heal available. I still grind vigour/caltrops as soon as I can enter Cyro, it's not a lot of AP, but I think rapids are more useful to my lowbies.

That's not true. Nightblades don't have a self-heal. Trying to play a stamblade with a resto staff doesn't work.

That is something that ZOS should fix then. It's always been a *** design that it doesn't have a self heal. Perhaps they should address that issue rather than screwing with a whole line that is only available through PVP.

Actually, NBs do have self heals. That person is probably speaking only to stamina based which I cannot think of a class heal that is stamina based in any of the original four classes. Off the top of my head, the class-based heals among the original classes scale off magicka, damage done (but still magicka), or missing health. I might be missing something.

Aight go make a stamblade and tell me how great of a self heal strive is when you realize it ticks for less than your health recovery...... But oh no stamina nb heal is op no need for stamina nightblades to get vigor because stamina nightblade has best heal... While you are at it grind out bgs on said stamblade and tell me how much rapids helped you with that compared to how much vigor would have helped.... And yes bgs are the quickest and easiest way ti grind out the skill line

BGs are even easier in below-50 where you really want to do the levelling.

Honestly it is not going to be hard to do and frankly I daresay we may even see players pick up a few tricks along the way.

Linaleah

Keep it as it is now

SshadowSscale wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CombatPrayer wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I have a lot of stam characters, and when I'm levelling them, having a slow horse is worse than not having vigour. Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag, since most skills start as mag, and there's always a mag self heal available. I still grind vigour/caltrops as soon as I can enter Cyro, it's not a lot of AP, but I think rapids are more useful to my lowbies.

That's not true. Nightblades don't have a self-heal. Trying to play a stamblade with a resto staff doesn't work.

That is something that ZOS should fix then. It's always been a *** design that it doesn't have a self heal. Perhaps they should address that issue rather than screwing with a whole line that is only available through PVP.

Actually, NBs do have self heals. That person is probably speaking only to stamina based which I cannot think of a class heal that is stamina based in any of the original four classes. Off the top of my head, the class-based heals among the original classes scale off magicka, damage done (but still magicka), or missing health. I might be missing something.

Aight go make a stamblade and tell me how great of a self heal strive is when you realize it ticks for less than your health recovery...... But oh no stamina nb heal is op no need for stamina nightblades to get vigor because stamina nightblade has best heal... While you are at it grind out bgs on said stamblade and tell me how much rapids helped you with that compared to how much vigor would have helped.... And yes bgs are the quickest and easiest way ti grind out the skill line

it absolutely sucks for the nightblades. i say that as a stamblade main who actualy quit the game for a while, cause I struggled so much on her.

however.

the proper fix is NOT to make it worse for everyone else.

the fix is to give STAMBLADES AN APPROPRIATE CLASS HEAL.

Guyle

Keep it as it is now

redgreensunset wrote: »

The amount of backseat coders with no clue that infest this thread continues to impress.

lol what does that even mean in this situation? Why should anyone need even the tiniest notion of how to code to "have a clue" relative to them swapping rapids and vigor? It's completely irrelevant to the subject. ZOS even said, the reason they are swapping rapids with vigor, and I am paraphrasing here, was so to make leveling on stam toons easier/better. No mention of coding anywhere. Also, knowing nothing about coding myself, forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't making a change to the code more work than leaving it how it has been for years? Isn't making a change actually more likely to result in bugs and things not WAI? Watch them make the change, screw up the coding, and everyone ends up getting both rapids and vigor unlocked at assault 1. Next thing you know, the take the servers down for a few hours to fix it, then when the game is back up, people who already had both vigor and rapids unlocked can't use either of them. It's not like anything like that has ever happened before lol.

Rowjoh

Keep it as it is now

VaranisArano

If Vigor becomes the 1st Assault skill, then Rapids should be the 2nd.

Everyone saying "AP is easy to make in Cyrodiil" is missing that it's a lot harder to make AP on a new character with a slow mount when you keep missing fights because it takes forever to get places.

this ^^

Lets be clear.

Rapids is an essential Quality of Life skill for all new chars or low level alts (level 10 upwards).

Vigor is essentially a PVP skill (yes you can use it in pve but it is not bis for most pve builds) absolutely not essential during the new char/levelling process for anyone, plus magicka chars have no use for it whatsoever so will only benefit the needs of the few over the many.

And people who say that 'it wont take long to get rapids anyway' are conveniently forgetting that exactly the same 'logic' applies to Vigor !

Why is it suddenly being changed after 6 years ? lol

If there was any real merit in it, this change would have been made a long time ago.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Switch rapids with vigor

Rowjoh wrote: »

VaranisArano

If Vigor becomes the 1st Assault skill, then Rapids should be the 2nd.

Everyone saying "AP is easy to make in Cyrodiil" is missing that it's a lot harder to make AP on a new character with a slow mount when you keep missing fights because it takes forever to get places.

this ^^

Lets be clear.

Rapids is an essential Quality of Life skill for all new chars or low level alts (level 10 upwards).

Vigor is essentially a PVP skill (yes you can use it in pve but it is not bis for most pve builds) absolutely not essential during the new char/levelling process for anyone, plus magicka chars have no use for it whatsoever so will only benefit the needs of the few over the many.

And people who say that 'it wont take long to get rapids anyway' are conveniently forgetting that exactly the same 'logic' applies to Vigor !

Why is it suddenly being changed after 6 years ? lol

If there was any real merit in it, this change would have been made a long time ago.

Considering the questionable server performance of PvP, are you truly surprised it's taken this long?

Rockett

Keep it as it is now

Keep it as is. If theyre really adamant on the change they can put both skills unlocked at level 1 in the assault tree. Rapids is most useful to new players, getting from keep to keep with 1% mount speed is a ball ache.

DarcyMardin

Keep it as it is now

Guyle wrote: »

Ughhh, its all these little things that they keep doing to make the game less fun or more work that make me log in less and less, and not look forward to logging in anymore

That’s exactly the way I feel. I love this game, and I’ve been here from the start, but I am sick and tired of all the constant changes (which are usually nerfs of some kind). The rapids change might seem like a minor thing to some people, but to those of us with many alts and no love for PvP, losing access to rapids is a Very Big Deal. In my own case, it could well be the straw that breaks this camel’s back and makes me cancel my two subscriptions.

Rowjoh

Keep it as it is now

Typical ZoS meddling in areas that don't need touching.

There's a well known principal that I'm sure most people are aware of...

If it ain't broke, (and we all know that there's plenty that is in eso) don't fix it.

Galwylin

Other:

I was thinking (dangerous I know) but in PVP why aren't assault and support completely open to all players with the passives dependent on level of the line? It seems pretty weird to be encouraging new players into PVP then making sure stamina doesn't have a dependable heal for at least your first couple of games. My preference is these are lines automatically granted and the only skills usable (so will need a rework) in PVP so maybe this game could actually balance PVP correctly without screwing PVE in the process. Many games level all players in this regard but this is the only game where level does matter in PVP and this would have all players regardless of class have the exact same abilities so its solely about player skill. But there are many other things I'd like to see change regarding PVP mainly to separate the two but I suspect ZOS feeds on player angst regarding it which explains their changes over the years.

Valen_Byte

Keep it as it is now

Fine, make a magika morph for vigor then. It should be usable by both mag and stam toons as it is tied to a generic "for everyone" skill line.

PapaWeeb

Other:

Make vigor #1, make rapids #2. Why is that so difficult? The only reason I see for moving such an essential skill to the 5th slot is to get people to buy mount speed for crowns.

Kiralyn2000

Switch rapids with vigor

tmbrinks wrote: »

Lets be clear.

Rapids is an essential Quality of Life skill for all new chars or low level alts (level 10 upwards).

Still seems so strange to read stuff like this. I've got 8 characters (5 of them fully leveled) and have never even thought of getting/having Rapids.

Vigor, I've lusted after every time I played my Stamblade. (not enough to ever PvP, though. I did dream of eventually getting it via login bonus AP rewards, until I realized it would take like 3+ years with the amount of AP that they usually give.)

PapaWeeb wrote: »

The only reason I see for moving such an essential skill to the 5th slot is to get people to buy mount speed for crowns.

Of course, I'm also constantly surprised to see people talk about actually buying those Crown books. They seem like the stupidest "what do you mean they actually sell?!?!" wasteful purchase in the whole store. Burning your money with a match seems less wasteful than those things - at least you get some light & heat from that.

Sheridan

Other:

Doesn't matter to me, I already have both.

AlnilamE

Keep it as it is now

PapaWeeb wrote: »

Make vigor #1, make rapids #2. Why is that so difficult? The only reason I see for moving such an essential skill to the 5th slot is to get people to buy mount speed for crowns.

They are moving it to the second slot, which requires Rank 5 to unlock.

My experience has been the following:

Turns out all my characters PvPd enough that only one of them was not rank 5 (he was rank 4 and is now rank 5), so this change doesn't affect me.

However, I have offered to my guildies that don't PvP and use rapids a lot that I would go to Cyrodiil with them and help them get each of their alts to rank 5.

A couple of them have taken me up on it, and one in particular, who uses rapids on each of her characters, but only 2 already have rank 5.

So we went to Cyrodiil a couple of evenings on a semi-busy campaign, looking for fights, getting resources when we could, dying when we encountered the enemy, and it's taken on average 2.5-3 hours to get her characters from rank 3 to rank 5, because she doesn't have a lot of experience in PvP and isn't as fast at doing stuff that we do automatically (spreading AoEs, setting up siege, having repair kits slotted and ready) and I seem to be earning about twice as much AP as she is while we are playing together.

All the while, I feel like she's really not having fun. And I feel terrible for her, because we still have 6 or so characters to go through, and that's going to be at least 20 hours of an activity she doesn't care for and is not enjoying. (I'm hoping this will go faster once we are doing EP characters because that's my PvP alliance and we can group with my PvP guild)

And before you say battlegrounds will be faster, there is no way she's going to go into a completely new game mode without being able to group with her guild. It's not happening. And if it did, it would be even less enjoyable for her than PvP in Cyrodiil.

So yeah, each week I look at the PTS patch notes in hope that ZOS has come to their senses and come up with an alternate solution that keeps Rapids for those who already have it, while making vigor more accessible to players who think they need it.

PS: Vigor really hasn't saved my stamblade in these incursions into Cyrodiil, so YMMV.

Evergnar

Keep it as it is now

Current way is better but they will definitely go through with this change. I'm surprised they didn't do it a long time ago as it means more potential riding lesson sales in the cash shop.

Rowjoh

Keep it as it is now

^^
it might if you decide to roll an alt or if there's a new class down the line.

Guyle

Keep it as it is now

I'd bet real money that mount training in the crown store goes on sale the same week this goes to live.

Arunei

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Lets be clear.

Rapids is an essential Quality of Life skill for all new chars or low level alts (level 10 upwards).

Still seems so strange to read stuff like this. I've got 8 characters (5 of them fully leveled) and have never even thought of getting/having Rapids.

Vigor, I've lusted after every time I played my Stamblade. (not enough to ever PvP, though. I did dream of eventually getting it via login bonus AP rewards, until I realized it would take like 3+ years with the amount of AP that they usually give.)

I think that's the main thing here. You're looking at this strictly from your own experience, where X thing appears more useful to you than Y thing, and aren't really taking in the number of people who are saying Y is more of a QoL thing because it can be used by all characters, not just Stam chars who don't use DW or 2H. YOU personally might not use Rapids or think about it, but it should be clear here that many, many, MANY people do.

That's the big problem a lot of people have with this proposed change. Rapids can be used by anyone for just about any content, getting around faster makes things less tedious and it allows you to get to various time-sensitive things. It isn't just about getting from point A to B faster, it's about actually being able to get to various things before they end. Vigor is a skill only Stam chars without a Class/Weapon line heal use, and even then not all builds use it. I wouldn't say it's a niche skill, though I feel it's certainly used less since it got changed than it did in the past, but it's less useful to a lot of players than Rapids is. Also as others have mentioned, lower-level chars don't really need access to Vigor that quickly because of battle leveling, aka you can use Magicka heals for a while because you have a bigger Magicka pool than a Stam char at max level does.

Sahidom

Switch rapids with vigor

Vigor will be a much greater QoL improvement with the switch than Rapids.

doomette

Other:

I see both sides. Not getting rapids immediately is going to suck for newer players/lowbie alts who don’t want to travel at a snail’s pace. It’s especially going to be felt in Cyro, trying to get to an objective before the fight’s over is going to be tricky.
But not having vigor sooner can hit certain classes particularly hard, especially in Cyro. Heck, even for new characters with no/low CP. I’ve seen plenty of them die during dolmens and stuff like that, so saying that even overland is easy enough to not use it clearly doesn’t take all players into account.
I do think that skills that help survivability, even if we’re just talking about stam classes without their own heals, should be prioritized over being able to ride a mount faster.
Since it’s so detrimental to be super slow in Cyrodiil, which honestly I thing is more important to consider than being able to go somewhere faster in PVE, it is an Alliance War skill after all, I like the aforementioned suggestion to move Vigor to the first support skill. If not that then begrudgingly I say go with the change, because, again, survivability should be prioritized over perks like going faster.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Switch rapids with vigor

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Fine, make a magika morph for vigor then. It should be usable by both mag and stam toons as it is tied to a generic "for everyone" skill line.

100% of magic toons have class heals. Why does magic “need” anything. I started a new toon on the EU server and I’m running a test since I have no CP there and can’t just make a set the best crafted gear. I will be leveling two stamina Templars one with and one without vigor. Let me tell you right now it’s hell without a strong heal. Templar heals suck on stamina builds.

Without the CP to just burn everything down I can tell I really though hard about breaking my rules and getting vigor. Right now I’m seeing which is better a build with Rapids but only class/weapon heals and build with Vigor but no speed buff. So much content is next to impossible without a strong heal Honor the Dead’s magic return helps but is no where near enough.

I’m a vet player from beta and it’s hard for me to not rage quit you get used to the horse speed but dying left right and center sucks even more when you know vigor would make all the difference.

doomette

Other:

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Fine, make a magika morph for vigor then. It should be usable by both mag and stam toons as it is tied to a generic "for everyone" skill line.

Yes because the game barely has any mag healing class skills 🙄