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The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel.
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Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedNote: I play with 300 ping.
The problem is that there is a group of players who have so much damage that the mechanics are irrelevant to them. But then the middle tier players have to learn the actual mechanics. So the game is a lot harder if your dps is only medium, its not a linear improvement.
How do you even make content for players where it will be easy for your best players but extremely hard for your average player?
There is also 0 way to learn these skills in game, it isn't just an extrapolation of earlier things. it is also not at all intuitive. You have to go look up some youtube videos from some helpful players to explain to you how to do it and you need to do it to complete a lot of the veteran content in the game. And there is no way to know what you are doing wrong if you went to a vet dungeon and get smacked about.
9 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Something the Devs want us to use cannot be an exploit.
The devs make mistakes regularly in all aspects of the game. Heck even the announcements have mistakes.
Allowing animation cancelling is just their biggest one and they've been paying for it ever since.
The proposed change to Light Attack hints at regret combined with silence due to their complicity.Edited by Dusk_Coven on April 4, 2020 6:34AM11 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since a while animation cancelling is described in an official hint on loading screens.So we have to assume that this is not only tolerated by ZOS, but an accepted mechanic and will most likely not go away. If changes to how resources are regained will make it more or less twitchy, we will have to see. My opinion about the matter is that both light and heavy attacks shouldn't regenerate resources, but passive regeneration should be faster. It doesn't make sense at all, that a combat action regenerates resources - illogical and plain nonsense. It's not the only nonsense in game mechanics though and I think that ZOS are again shooting into their own feet with these changes - they are necessary and appreciated like a wart in the face.3 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Dusk_Coven wrote: »
The devs make mistakes regularly in all aspects of the game. Heck even the announcements have mistakes.
Allowing animation cancelling is just their biggest one and they've been paying for it ever since.
The proposed change to Light Attack hints at regret combined with silence due to their complicity.
Not really. The current Combat Team has done other massive number changes near neutering other abilities like Ground dots and dots in General in one patch and I doubt it was because of regret that dots are used too much.
It speaks more of their inability to take a careful Approach towards balancing, for some reason the current Combat Team seems to think that a Change only matters if it is a +50% buff or nerf and that small changes make them look bad while the opposite is true and everyone would appreciate if they for once would try balancing with small numbers instead of the sledgehammer.
Who knows really, following the dot pattern we might see a 200% buff to light attacks in the next proposed Change, we really cant know whats going on in the Combat Teams minds.Edited by Sanguinor2 on April 4, 2020 8:02AMPoliteness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.8 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedNomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Sometimes I can't help but feel anti-animation canceling peeps are the people that can't get the rotations down, get flustered, claim it has to be an exploit to do this, and then rage about cheaters instead of just accepting that they suck.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.13 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
They Arent. Being a feature the devs want us to use and being an exploit is mutually exclusive, it cannot be one and the other. And the devs want us to use it.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
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Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedSanguinor2 wrote: »
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
They Arent. Being a feature the devs want us to use and being an exploit is mutually exclusive, it cannot be one and the other. And the devs want us to use it.
No, it's not.
Look up the definition of exploit (in a proper dictionary!).Edited by Tigerseye on April 4, 2020 8:36AM7 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.
No, it's not.
Look up the definition of exploit (in a proper dictionary!).
Merriam Webster or Cambridge Dictionaries hardly account for exploiting in Video games, but they define it as taking unfairly Advantage of something to gain something for yourself(among multiple other definitions that are not related to this Topic). Thats not Happening with LA weaving/AC.
Definitions with Video games in mind in multiple Forums or Wikipedia describe it as taking Advantage in a manner not intended by the devs, which is not the case since the game is coded with and around it and combat balancing is done with and around it. And the devs also repeatedly told us that they intend for us to use AC/LA weaving.Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Were those games designed to have a combat like Eso tho? I havent played many other MMOs but all other MMOs I played made combat around cooldowns and cast times when they had an Auto attack, which many, Zos included, do not want here.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.8 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.graybeardII wrote: »The game is what it is but I dont thing because I dont have the finger dexterity of a concert pianist I shoud some how be excluded from content. These old hand have seen a lot of abuse in 59 years. And no I dont want to be cared I want to earn my gear and monster helm's. I came here to run dungens and learn the mechanics not have to worry about how much DPS im doing all the darn time.
A concert pianist?? You have to be joking, 2 presses per second, as in the tic tok you hear in an old school clock, is not even in the same universe as what you need for a concert pianist, just stop.8 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.8 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, the skill gap is fine.Skill gap is a good thing. If someone has a problem with that, go play a single player game on easy.PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat10 -
Daffen✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.
How else would you become an elite? You dont become one from questing and playing casually, then you will never catch up and become an "elite". The elites practice their rotations, skills, make builds, do multiple trial runs for practice and communicates with their team almost every day so they can be the best.
As a pvp player you dont become an elite from copying someone elses build and playing badly, i used to be one of those players. I remember copying pvp builds from alcast not knowing why the sets were good and why he was using those abilities. Now, almost 3 years later and 3k hours played in the game i understand. Just. How. Bad. Alcast. Builds. Are. Sure, they work for beginners, but it will never perform the same as an experienced player making his own builds and playing around with different sets and skills. Once you begin buildcrafting, you start to learn how much mitigation, healing, damage and sustain your build needs and how you can min-max your build. (maximum damage possible while keeping the rest of your stats the same)1 -
Rexy18✭✭✭If you struggle with something as simple as pressing buttons on a keyboard, buy yourself a cheap £10 mouse and bind your skills onto it. Weaving like this takes exactly 0 skill to perform3 -
Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭colossalvoids wrote: »If you're trying to push your opinions this way just make one post and not myriads of not well though out polls.
but...it's his *style*
the headache bringer is back
4 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
what is it with people like you who think this game needs to be like all others?Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,405 achievement points11 -
iTzStevey✭✭✭Hardly anyone gave a flying *** about any of this before zos' mentioned changes. Find a different game, this one will always be broken.1
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭graybeardII wrote: »The game is what it is but I dont thing because I dont have the finger dexterity of a concert pianist I shoud some how be excluded from content. These old hand have seen a lot of abuse in 59 years. And no I dont want to be cared I want to earn my gear and monster helm's. I came here to run dungens and learn the mechanics not have to worry about how much DPS im doing all the darn time.
You don't need "dexterity of a concert pianist" to deal enough damage to complete everything that game have to offer. Frankly You don't need any dexterity for that at all. What You need is lot of self awareness to follow the mechanics. Most of people that complain about too complicated and too fast rotations usually sucks at following mechanics. If You want to get Your gear and monster sets , well all depends what gear and monster sets You're looking for. Some of the will be locked behind harder content. Harder not because of damage ceiling but because of mechanics that will cause many people to be dead and be the reason of wipes. There also has to be some minimum DPS required to complete that content. Luckily enough it's pretty low. People just can't reach it because they have issues with mechanics.
Over 90% of a content in the game can be completed with DPS possible to reach by putting brick on LMB when geared for that. If You meet so many people that exclude You from doing something only because Your DPS is too low but other then that You're doing everything else perfectly then You should change people You're hanging out with. The question is though are You sure You're doing everything else other then Your rotation perfectly ? You're always following mechanics and execute them ?4 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.devs already killed this game once block change release, almost all pvper i know just quit (becuase lag too)Edited by evoniee on April 4, 2020 3:09PM4 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedHas nothing to do with skill, anyone can learn how to animation cancel and my best many do it without realizing it. Fact is, many people avoid ESO because animation cancelling is a bug and should not be in the game. Real PvPers and real PvP tournaments would not even look at ESO because of it. That alone should be enough of a reason for everyone to want it removed.7 -
T3hasiangod✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Anyone who thinks weaving is an exploit cannot be taken seriously.13
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tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Has nothing to do with skill, anyone can learn how to animation cancel and my best many do it without realizing it. Fact is, many people avoid ESO because animation cancelling is a bug and should not be in the game. Real PvPers and real PvP tournaments would not even look at ESO because of it. That alone should be enough of a reason for everyone to want it removed.
what's a "Real PvPer"? or a "real PvP" tournament?
Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,405 achievement points3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭graybeardII wrote: »Ok first I never said any thing about abusing any mechanic weaving and ac are part of the game. And I struggle with them daily. Around 24k on a 3m dummey if your interested. But if I was to show up in a vBrF with a 35k dps and a heavy attack rotation I'd be kicked after the first boss even if my dps was sufficient and you know it (oops that came out kinda harsh sorry) but there it is. As you said vet dungens can be done with less dps but theres (so much) emphases put on high dps that if your not flawless your not wanted even by guildys. The question was asked if I thought the gap is to big and I do.You say its easy to make 30 to 45k dps maybe for you who has 2 working hands Im not asking to all of a sudden be doing top dps,doing speed runs and hm no death that's not realistic im aking for the gap to close just enough for people like me to be wanted in vet runs not thought of as a flower picker.Oh and I could give a rip about leader boards and skins and weather or not your better than me my interest is making friends having fun runing the more challenging not the most challenging content and as stated before learning the dungon machines where Imo the real skill (should) lay not weather or not you can do 80k dps. Then maybe topics like this wouldn't get so hostile and the dungen finder would run a little more smothly
If You would show up in vBF with 35k DPS and heavy attack rotation and You would execute mechanics properly most of the people wouldn't care about Your DPS and how You're achieving it and You should know it. Lot of people thinks that they're excluded from harder content because of their DPS when in fact it's not true. Very often they're excluded from it because they're simply not ready for the mechanics that they'll meet there and the'll be dead very often. And despite that they're refusing to adjust their setups to fit their capabilities and they're choosing to brainlesly follow the meta despite the fact meta is not working for them.
I see lot of people with CP 200+ trying to farm zaan and persistently looking for group for vSSCP which is silly. Most of them is not fitted for wearing that monster set. Even top players are using it only in specific fights and those CP 200+ players want to make it their main monster set. They very often refuse to understand that meta setups are not for them and that they should use some begginer friendly things.
Those are the main reasons for the gap. Because lot of people simply cannot focus on doing damage (even smaller ones) while following mechanics at the same time and despite of that they want to get the best gear possible designed for more experienced players from the get go. It is in a sense a l2p issue that many people refuses to acknowledge and instead they're looking for various excuses like complaining about light attack weaving being the main reason they cannot comlete content.2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.Edited by Tigerseye on April 4, 2020 3:21PM9 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedI suggest you get over trying to tell other people what to do.4 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Sometimes I can't help but feel anti-animation canceling peeps are the people that can't get the rotations down, get flustered, claim it has to be an exploit to do this, and then rage about cheaters instead of just accepting that they suck.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
To exploit =/= to use an exploit. "Exploit" used as a verb have slightly different context from using that word as a noun.
And technically light attack weaving was part of intended mechanic which ZoS acknowledged the day they discovered it's possible to do. Animation cancelling was always intended in ESO that's a fact. Light attack weaving was byproduct of it. Unexpected at the beggining but still it was not breaking rules of the combat that developers created in any way. ZoS was simply not expecting that people will take it to the next level and turn it into important part of the rotations but the moment they've realized it they were completly fine with it because it was not breaking any rule of combat they've made.7
This discussion has been closed.