Streak and convert spamming is a huge issue plaguing this game
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wonder when the stamina arsenal starts receiving ground shattering nerfs like magicka does all the time.
Remember when they basically halfed soul assaults damage and doubled the cost? Completly destroyed, useless. Anihilated without a trace of thought, care or consideration. Zenimax does not want you to use it anymore, just like they do not want you to use pets, destructive touch and many other abilities.
And it works. I have not seen a single soul assault since they completely destroyed it. Stamina needs some; it is time.
Little story:
My internet router has to reset once per day. When that happens, it disconnects me from ESO. But it doesn't do that instantaneously. Everyone but me freezes, as I'm getting no data from them. That gives me like ten or fifteen seconds to walk around and study this "snapshot" of the game. Very interesting when I'm in a big battle. Anyways, the amount of stamina weapons I see in people's hands there is staggering. Staves? Not so much. They're rare. REALLY rare. It's eye-opening when you think about it. Cyrodiil IS stamina-dominated, clearly. And not only 1v1, that's bull. Also large groups.
You're wrong tho. Stamina is great for solo and small scale openworld pvp, but magicka dominates medium to large group fights.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joinovikova wrote: »
Also no one who play other class will Say mág sorc is op om current patchStreak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
Play a templar and no Sorcerer can harm you. Play a Dragonknight and no Sorcerer can harm you.
Other classes excel at countering the entire Sorcerer strategy. Purge, Scales etc.
You are delusional if you think that Sorcerer is above other classes. It was at one point and that was 3 years ago.Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
Play a templar and no Sorcerer can harm you. Play a Dragonknight and no Sorcerer can harm you.
Other classes excel at countering the entire Sorcerer strategy. Purge, Scales etc.
You are delusional if you think that Sorcerer is above other classes. It was at one point and that was 3 years ago.
Do yourself a favour and switch classes. If you actually think that you aren’t playing a sorc well, and playing other classes will make you a better player.
Sorc’s main issue is it’s filled with players who’ve only played a sorc and have no perspective. No one in their right mind who’s played multiple classes thinks sorcs are weak.
Yes, magsorc is not OP. It is top-tier class sharing this position with magplar, stamplar, stamden and stamcro. Thus, there is no necessity to nerf streak or sorc. There is necessity to buff/tweak other 7 specs.
Sorc is slightly below top tier. It appears stronger since it's easier to avoid confrontation with top tiers, but a magsorc committing to a fight with stamplar and even stamcro/stamDK will lose if both players are about same skill. Magsorc can't deliver enough constant pressure to crack the current meta tank builds to be top tier.
If magsorc keeps shields up he can tank through onslaught combo. So any fight turns into attrition duel and streak makes this attrition duel pretty hard for classes which lack ranged pressure or unblockable stuns, i.e. first of all stamplar. I play stamDK and stamplar, on stamDK I'm fine with magsorcs because I keep fossilizing/dizzying them and they can't apply their pressure non-stop.. on stamplar I was forced to sacrifice build which I liked and slot damned S&B backbar just to be able to fight with magsorcs on even terms.
As I said many times, I don't think that nerf of streak or nerf of jabs or nerf of any other "overloaded" ability will do any good. Moving unchained perk to no-CP (i.e. making it default one for any player from level 1), could've solved many issues... or just making break free much cheaper in all modes... but I guess devs are happy that ton of players run with moderate damage, insufficient for timed burst and rely on cc spam to get kills.
IF
In noCp common shield strengh is about 8.5k ( 40k max magicka (shields doesnt scale from spell dmg))
Im quite sure you arent even able to shield onslaught itself with 8k shield not onslaught combo.. Try to use it before writing this nonsense..
And Shieldstacking is no-go for noCp sorc.. 8k magicka wasted in ( if good) 6 seconds.. With only Shieldstacking normal sorc is out of resources in half minute, not counting offensive skill cost to enemy
Keep in mind you need to have some stamina recovery for cc break / dodge so you cannot go just for magicka
I don't get it. Typical health will be ~22k + shield 8k = 30k. What build is capable of dealing 30k damage in 2-3 GCD in no-CP against PVP build? This might happen only if majority of abilities will crit. So this is some borderline scenario when cc-pot is active (otherwise your burst is instantly cancelled by streak), AND majority of abilities will crit AND med-heavy attack stun is not blocked AND break-free didn't happen instantly so onslaught is not dodged AND sorc won't be able to block-tap matriarch heal before last execute(s) landed. That' what need to happen to kill sorc who keeps 1 shield up and is not depleted of magicka/stamina before onslaught.
Oh, shields are expensive. But using 3k+ cost gap closer to keep pressure on magsorc after each streak is not expensive? 5400 stamina drain after each unblockable streak is not expensive? Fact is that in no-CP melee build need to spend 8-9k resources to counter effects of 3-3.5k cost ability is not expensive?
Best thing magsorcs can say about fighting full melee builds in open is to say that full melee builds are powerful in towers/keeps and so magsorc naturally counters them in open and best solution against streak is not to fight magsorcs in open. Of course magsorcs who don't keep shield up die often to stamina combos... but that is class rule - shield MUST be UP. Same as vigor should be up for any stamina build.
I can assure you, if you keep using streak constantly to keep ur distance while also keeping ur shields up and while also trying to deal dmg it's gonna drain a lot more than 3.5k magicka.
Streak cooldown is 4 seconds. CC-immunity cooldown is 7 seconds. I absolutely don't see why you should streak several times "to keep distance" one streak+stun+ movement already puts you far enough to require gap closer use from your melee opponent. Well, bow backbar builds have natural high speed from roll-dodges so they don't require gap closer spam as full melee but they will still receive ton of damage while closing in on magsorc.
Anyway, I found combo which allows me to keep magsorcs in check on stamplar... but that combo requires sacrifices and is overkill in terms of protection/sustain against other classes. With build where I don't feel like I'm outclassed by magsorc's build, I am immortal against all other specs maybe with exception of some good stamcros...
Because u are not going to facetank 6k+ wpn dmg builds unless u are playing some seriously defensively busted sorc with capped resists protection buffs and crap like that. And no u don't need a gap closer to catch up with one streak. U can just walk up on them which also won't make ur character vulnerable during the gap closer animation.
The sorc will need to constantly keep the distance because again he doesn't want to be in melee range against ridicously high wpn dmg builds which means constant streaking keeping shields up while also attempting to be offensive in the little time he has left. And I can assure that's really really really expensive. And if he does manage to kill u while doing that well newsflash. He outplayed you and killed you. Nothing wrong with that.
I have absolutely opposite experience - on 6k WD stamplar, I can face tank typical 6k WD meta stamina build (because fight will be inside ritual), but I can't face tank typical magsorc because he will streak out ritual and damage me from distance. But this is all dependent on class... on 6k DK with same build as stamplar for I can face tank magsorc (because cauterize is mobile plus fossilize guarantees that sorc will be struggling with stamina sustain = he won't be able to convert it to magicka = perpetuum mobile streak-conversion won't be working), but I can't face tank stamplar or magplar (if I don't have major evasion).
All those "ridiculously high WD builds" have generic counters like major evasion or high mobility and both doesn't require much sacrifice. That's why BRP DW receives so much hate, because that weapon set hard-counters all the meta stambuilds because quick cloak is amazing as it is, and then we have major protection to make applying Fury burst unreliable...
Countering streak spam requires multiple sacrifices - not only 1 ability slot and/or set but also additional sustain (Which is not needed against other classes). Well, of course there is generic counter to any ranged build, including magsorc - sitting in tower, running around the rock etc...
Overall, as outcome of this thread I think that OP is completely right. Streak itself is best gap closer/unblockable stun, but that's ok. But combination of streak+conversion is broken. There are multiple global solutions to this without direct nerfs to streak or deal/conversion. Make all cast time abilities (with exception of melee spammables) interruptable always no matter what, reduce cost of break free etc..
And streak spam itself requires sacrifices because it gets expensive fast. You shouldnt be dying to streak/conversion spam because the sorc will barely have time to attack you. Hell, you don't even need to cc break the streak if that is all the sorc is doing cause by the time he finishes his streak and conversion u will be already up without having to cc break.
If some sorc is constantly kiting u with streak, keep shields up and still managing to kill you then he outplayed you. Period. Spreading misinformation how he spent no resources to do that just so u can feel better and excuse ur loss won't make it true.
Ur stamplar can purge curse and u have a ranged cc. Be more careful when fighting a good sorc. Most people dying to sorcs is because they get overzealous spamming gap closers blowing their resources and not minding their defence and then they complain why the burst class is bursting them.
1. Under streak spam I mean using it on cc-immunity cooldown to drain opponent's resources
2. I'm not dying to this builds anymore because I sacrificed 2 jewelry enchants for recovery and now I can dance with this sorcs for 10minutes into stalemate, while over-sustaining against all other builds
3. "you don't even need to break free"... lol are you serious? if you don't break free it is GG against any competent player.
4. I didn't spread misinformation. Multiple people in this thread agreed with OP, i.e. they experience the same.
5. Purging curse is at least twice more expensive then curse and you can't afford to spam 4.8k magicka ability on stam build
6. Ranged cc - are you serious? 3k stamina for thing which will be blocked if not used in close proximity? Against competent players jav works only in melee range, otherwise it is blocked
7. Be more careful - yeah - run around the rock while onslaught is charging - this works. But you know sitting in LOS is BM in 1v1
1. CC immunity is the same for all classes. Just like u should have enough stam to cc break on cooldown other stuns the same applies for sorcs. If u don't have enough stam to cc break then get more sustain. That's not a problem with sorcs, that's ur problem. And if the sorc is only using streak on cc immunity cooldown then it shouldn't be a problem to close the gap.
2. So all it took to dance with a sorc and not die to them is get some sustain? My God, sorcs are so OP then. Funny thing is sorcs are playing sustain oriented setups with regen enchants and sets while also using dark conversion since forever. I guess welcome to their world.
3. Please read before u post. I said if the sorc is using streak into conversion then u don't even need to cc break. That was ur problem. That the sorc is streaking and then using dark conversion. Well guess what. That rotation requires some time to complete and u will be up before the sorc does anything else.
4. It's not a matter of experience. It's a matter of facts. Constantly using streak to kite while keeping shields up and trying to kill people costs a lot of resources. So yes u are spreading misinformation. Just read the tooltips to see how much they cost.
5. No need to spam it. You use it when u need it. No need to purge if u don't feel pressured. That's why I said be more careful and don't get overzealous.
6. Yes I'm serious. You use it to disrupt their combo. U got stunned u are low on resources and u feel pressured. Throw ur javelin to disrupt their combo. Again that's why I said be more careful.
7. No, be more careful as in, u need to be in control. If u get overzealous spamming gap closers blowing ur resources, letting ur buffs go down making mistakes and then dying then that's a problem with u. Again, most people dying to sorcs is because they get annoyed by the constant kiting and they do one mistake after the other. Keep cool and be in control. If you still die then I'm sorry some players are just better. Just like ur stamDK loses to stamplars then some times u are gonna lose to sorcs. Don't understand why this has to be a sorc problem.
Valid points, but we are saying the same, simply from different point of view.
I don't know about what we arguing, I am not calling for streak nerf, I'm just proposing to bring unchained+reduced break free cost to no-CP because imo it will make PVP way more healthy. I don't understand why anybody should be against this - it will be a buff to ALL classes.
Cost reduction would be good, but making cc immunity work would be even better.
Every patch is the same, people complain about stun abilities and all that changes is which ability is targeted. No one really complains about cc in general, they complain about other player’s cc. Buff mine, nerf yours might as well be the forums motto.
Yep, and that's the reason why sorcs over here are not fans of reduced break free cost. Conversion makes them adaptable.. if opponent spams hard cc -> they don't use conversion and can break free just fine with bloodspawn+shacklebreaker in no-CP. If opponent doesn't spam hard cc - this excessive stamina is not in vain - they convert it to magicka. DK can convert magicka to stamina.. NB has cloak, warden has shimmering shield, stamcro is just OP... so when they tell that templar is somehow most undesirable opponent because he purges curse - I don't understand. Templar is least adaptable class imo. It is OP in some cases (if opponent is slow and don't have major evasion) but struggles against mobile ranged specs because without consistent jabs templar pressure is non-existent. Tbh, I am even thinking about Jabs/Snipe build with Briarheart/Ravager+Kena/BS and potentates. Something like 7k WD / 3k stam recovery (in Cyro). Mist+stage 4 to avoid be annihilated on sight. Run from magDK on vicinity. Should be fun
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
Umm, because cast times are garbage. If something is not viable for dueling then it's too much of a burden to slot. What do you plan on doing when you're on the way to an objective and wind up in combat against an enemy along the way? Kindly whisper her to hold on until you switch up to your dueling setup?
Crystal Blast is nowhere near the potency of Dizzy Swing. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say everyone who has ever seriously tried this skill in PvP has never made an impact on the game, never has inspired someone to copy their build, never elicited the admiration of opponents.
I think I speak for most sorcerers when I say this: there have been many times I have unintentionally hard cast crystal frags because the animation for a proc is very similar to the Surge animation (which is dumb, but whatever) and against a PuG who fights like a target dummy, the skill is all right because it does act as a delayed burst as it can be immediately followed up with a light attack + fury. But it's hot garbage against anyone halfway decent who is on your ass casting Dizzy Swing or jabbing you or a Necro that drops a boneyard at your feet.
Sorcs have adapted: that's why they all got master destros when ZOS nerfed Frags and all ran Zoo builds when it buffed pets, and just about all I know did not need to be convinced Dark Conversion was a strong skill: they were all using it (I know this because they all waved their hands in my face causing me to curse ZOS's dumb changes that made abilities uninterruptible). Most don;t use Crystal Blast not because they are stuck in their ways, but because the skill is not worth slotting.
I do fine 1v1 against people using frag as a spammable, I just think in a dueling setting there are better options.
I’m not the best sorc, but I do well while playing mine. I value skill economy more than having a better spammable.
I also use one shield, I don’t see a reason to use two. One with streaking out of a bind works fine.
What I don’t get is all the magsorcs saying the class is terrible but being adamant that their way of playing is the only way. If you’re doing fine on sorc then continue, but for the people saying the class is weak and not even bothering to try different things...
Like I see magsorcs with under 20k health all the time. Of course you’re going to get wrecked, and of course it has nothing to do with the class.
I also see a lot of magsorcs haven’t adapted to the shields change yet. Stacking max magicka in a glass build makes your shields weaker, not stronger, unless you’re hit with an onslaught.
You have the same philosophy as ZOS: as long as you do "fine," then there is nothing to see here, no need to change, move along.
I don't just say that. I remember in one of my meeting as a rep, the devs asked us why PvE sorcs were having resource management issues and weren;t using Dark Conversion. All of us - even the PvP reps - said it's a DPS loss and thus not optimal. The Devs basically said that sorc resource management issues were self-imposed for not using a skill that was available. And they repeated this logic in their last dev article on class identity which argues that just because something isn't optimal, it still constitutes class identity.
The problem comes when "fine" gets beat by optimal in PvP and "fine" gets you kicked from PvE groups who are tired of wiping on a raid boss. Both make for a negative game experience.
If you are using Crystal Blast and only feel the need to slot one shield, then that tells me enough to know what constitutes your typical PvP experience: whether or not you are actually in a group, you are near a multitude of friendly players and are usually not under heavy pressure from enemy players. I s*** you not, I did "fine" playing under these same circumstances during the PvP event using my level 38 sorc with green random gear, that did not even unlock streak and whose Crystal Frags barely hit for 1.5K. In such an environment, any bad build can do "fine."
This creates totally unrealistic expectation when mediocre players accustomed to doing "fine" in noncompetitive situations enters into a competitive environment and become convinced their opponents must be using Cheat-engine, the other classes are "over-performing" or some other rationalization why their "fine" build got packed up. Don;t misinterpret this and think I'm saying you're mediocre, because I'm not and quite frankly I don't recognize your name or even know you you are. What I am saying is the philosophy that just because a skill or class does "fine" is not how to go about trying to balance a game
Edited by Joy_Division on March 3, 2020 7:06PM6 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
Umm, because cast times are garbage. If something is not viable for dueling then it's too much of a burden to slot. What do you plan on doing when you're on the way to an objective and wind up in combat against an enemy along the way? Kindly whisper her to hold on until you switch up to your dueling setup?
Crystal Blast is nowhere near the potency of Dizzy Swing. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say everyone who has ever seriously tried this skill in PvP has never made an impact on the game, never has inspired someone to copy their build, never elicited the admiration of opponents.
I think I speak for most sorcerers when I say this: there have been many times I have unintentionally hard cast crystal frags because the animation for a proc is very similar to the Surge animation (which is dumb, but whatever) and against a PuG who fights like a target dummy, the skill is all right because it does act as a delayed burst as it can be immediately followed up with a light attack + fury. But it's hot garbage against anyone halfway decent who is on your ass casting Dizzy Swing or jabbing you or a Necro that drops a boneyard at your feet.
Sorcs have adapted: that's why they all got master destros when ZOS nerfed Frags and all ran Zoo builds when it buffed pets, and just about all I know did not need to be convinced Dark Conversion was a strong skill: they were all using it (I know this because they all waved their hands in my face causing me to curse ZOS's dumb changes that made abilities uninterruptible). Most don;t use Crystal Blast not because they are stuck in their ways, but because the skill is not worth slotting.
I do fine 1v1 against people using frag as a spammable, I just think in a dueling setting there are better options.
I’m not the best sorc, but I do well while playing mine. I value skill economy more than having a better spammable.
I also use one shield, I don’t see a reason to use two. One with streaking out of a bind works fine.
What I don’t get is all the magsorcs saying the class is terrible but being adamant that their way of playing is the only way. If you’re doing fine on sorc then continue, but for the people saying the class is weak and not even bothering to try different things...
Like I see magsorcs with under 20k health all the time. Of course you’re going to get wrecked, and of course it has nothing to do with the class.
I also see a lot of magsorcs haven’t adapted to the shields change yet. Stacking max magicka in a glass build makes your shields weaker, not stronger, unless you’re hit with an onslaught.
It actually bothers me when people say they do "fine" on mag sorc.
From my years of playing sorc the class is highly limited in what it can do right now compared to what it used to be.
The game is headed for certain doom when players have such low standards
Certain ppl need to get out of spamming endless fury in BG's or apparently trying to small scale or claiming to small scale on their mag sorc. Actually do some real PVP or duel good players for a change before passing judgements on a class.Edited by PhoenixGrey on March 3, 2020 9:35PM2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
Umm, because cast times are garbage. If something is not viable for dueling then it's too much of a burden to slot. What do you plan on doing when you're on the way to an objective and wind up in combat against an enemy along the way? Kindly whisper her to hold on until you switch up to your dueling setup?
Crystal Blast is nowhere near the potency of Dizzy Swing. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say everyone who has ever seriously tried this skill in PvP has never made an impact on the game, never has inspired someone to copy their build, never elicited the admiration of opponents.
I think I speak for most sorcerers when I say this: there have been many times I have unintentionally hard cast crystal frags because the animation for a proc is very similar to the Surge animation (which is dumb, but whatever) and against a PuG who fights like a target dummy, the skill is all right because it does act as a delayed burst as it can be immediately followed up with a light attack + fury. But it's hot garbage against anyone halfway decent who is on your ass casting Dizzy Swing or jabbing you or a Necro that drops a boneyard at your feet.
Sorcs have adapted: that's why they all got master destros when ZOS nerfed Frags and all ran Zoo builds when it buffed pets, and just about all I know did not need to be convinced Dark Conversion was a strong skill: they were all using it (I know this because they all waved their hands in my face causing me to curse ZOS's dumb changes that made abilities uninterruptible). Most don;t use Crystal Blast not because they are stuck in their ways, but because the skill is not worth slotting.
I do fine 1v1 against people using frag as a spammable, I just think in a dueling setting there are better options.
I’m not the best sorc, but I do well while playing mine. I value skill economy more than having a better spammable.
I also use one shield, I don’t see a reason to use two. One with streaking out of a bind works fine.
What I don’t get is all the magsorcs saying the class is terrible but being adamant that their way of playing is the only way. If you’re doing fine on sorc then continue, but for the people saying the class is weak and not even bothering to try different things...
Like I see magsorcs with under 20k health all the time. Of course you’re going to get wrecked, and of course it has nothing to do with the class.
I also see a lot of magsorcs haven’t adapted to the shields change yet. Stacking max magicka in a glass build makes your shields weaker, not stronger, unless you’re hit with an onslaught.
Yes sorcs didn't adapt to shield changes. That's why they all run ton of crit resist boundless and bloodspawn.
And yeah u are doing fine when friendlies are there to cover the weaknesses of ur build or when u are fighting such a bad players that can't even bash ur crystal blast. Problem is that fine changes drastically when u start fighting players that actually know what they are doing.Edited by pieratsos on March 3, 2020 8:21PM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joinovikova wrote: »
Also no one who play other class will Say mág sorc is op om current patchStreak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
Play a templar and no Sorcerer can harm you. Play a Dragonknight and no Sorcerer can harm you.
Other classes excel at countering the entire Sorcerer strategy. Purge, Scales etc.
You are delusional if you think that Sorcerer is above other classes. It was at one point and that was 3 years ago.Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
Play a templar and no Sorcerer can harm you. Play a Dragonknight and no Sorcerer can harm you.
Other classes excel at countering the entire Sorcerer strategy. Purge, Scales etc.
You are delusional if you think that Sorcerer is above other classes. It was at one point and that was 3 years ago.
Do yourself a favour and switch classes. If you actually think that you aren’t playing a sorc well, and playing other classes will make you a better player.
Sorc’s main issue is it’s filled with players who’ve only played a sorc and have no perspective. No one in their right mind who’s played multiple classes thinks sorcs are weak.
Yes, magsorc is not OP. It is top-tier class sharing this position with magplar, stamplar, stamden and stamcro. Thus, there is no necessity to nerf streak or sorc. There is necessity to buff/tweak other 7 specs.
Sorc is slightly below top tier. It appears stronger since it's easier to avoid confrontation with top tiers, but a magsorc committing to a fight with stamplar and even stamcro/stamDK will lose if both players are about same skill. Magsorc can't deliver enough constant pressure to crack the current meta tank builds to be top tier.
If magsorc keeps shields up he can tank through onslaught combo. So any fight turns into attrition duel and streak makes this attrition duel pretty hard for classes which lack ranged pressure or unblockable stuns, i.e. first of all stamplar. I play stamDK and stamplar, on stamDK I'm fine with magsorcs because I keep fossilizing/dizzying them and they can't apply their pressure non-stop.. on stamplar I was forced to sacrifice build which I liked and slot damned S&B backbar just to be able to fight with magsorcs on even terms.
As I said many times, I don't think that nerf of streak or nerf of jabs or nerf of any other "overloaded" ability will do any good. Moving unchained perk to no-CP (i.e. making it default one for any player from level 1), could've solved many issues... or just making break free much cheaper in all modes... but I guess devs are happy that ton of players run with moderate damage, insufficient for timed burst and rely on cc spam to get kills.
IF
In noCp common shield strengh is about 8.5k ( 40k max magicka (shields doesnt scale from spell dmg))
Im quite sure you arent even able to shield onslaught itself with 8k shield not onslaught combo.. Try to use it before writing this nonsense..
And Shieldstacking is no-go for noCp sorc.. 8k magicka wasted in ( if good) 6 seconds.. With only Shieldstacking normal sorc is out of resources in half minute, not counting offensive skill cost to enemy
Keep in mind you need to have some stamina recovery for cc break / dodge so you cannot go just for magicka
I don't get it. Typical health will be ~22k + shield 8k = 30k. What build is capable of dealing 30k damage in 2-3 GCD in no-CP against PVP build? This might happen only if majority of abilities will crit. So this is some borderline scenario when cc-pot is active (otherwise your burst is instantly cancelled by streak), AND majority of abilities will crit AND med-heavy attack stun is not blocked AND break-free didn't happen instantly so onslaught is not dodged AND sorc won't be able to block-tap matriarch heal before last execute(s) landed. That' what need to happen to kill sorc who keeps 1 shield up and is not depleted of magicka/stamina before onslaught.
Oh, shields are expensive. But using 3k+ cost gap closer to keep pressure on magsorc after each streak is not expensive? 5400 stamina drain after each unblockable streak is not expensive? Fact is that in no-CP melee build need to spend 8-9k resources to counter effects of 3-3.5k cost ability is not expensive?
Best thing magsorcs can say about fighting full melee builds in open is to say that full melee builds are powerful in towers/keeps and so magsorc naturally counters them in open and best solution against streak is not to fight magsorcs in open. Of course magsorcs who don't keep shield up die often to stamina combos... but that is class rule - shield MUST be UP. Same as vigor should be up for any stamina build.
I can assure you, if you keep using streak constantly to keep ur distance while also keeping ur shields up and while also trying to deal dmg it's gonna drain a lot more than 3.5k magicka.
Streak cooldown is 4 seconds. CC-immunity cooldown is 7 seconds. I absolutely don't see why you should streak several times "to keep distance" one streak+stun+ movement already puts you far enough to require gap closer use from your melee opponent. Well, bow backbar builds have natural high speed from roll-dodges so they don't require gap closer spam as full melee but they will still receive ton of damage while closing in on magsorc.
Anyway, I found combo which allows me to keep magsorcs in check on stamplar... but that combo requires sacrifices and is overkill in terms of protection/sustain against other classes. With build where I don't feel like I'm outclassed by magsorc's build, I am immortal against all other specs maybe with exception of some good stamcros...
Because u are not going to facetank 6k+ wpn dmg builds unless u are playing some seriously defensively busted sorc with capped resists protection buffs and crap like that. And no u don't need a gap closer to catch up with one streak. U can just walk up on them which also won't make ur character vulnerable during the gap closer animation.
The sorc will need to constantly keep the distance because again he doesn't want to be in melee range against ridicously high wpn dmg builds which means constant streaking keeping shields up while also attempting to be offensive in the little time he has left. And I can assure that's really really really expensive. And if he does manage to kill u while doing that well newsflash. He outplayed you and killed you. Nothing wrong with that.
I have absolutely opposite experience - on 6k WD stamplar, I can face tank typical 6k WD meta stamina build (because fight will be inside ritual), but I can't face tank typical magsorc because he will streak out ritual and damage me from distance. But this is all dependent on class... on 6k DK with same build as stamplar for I can face tank magsorc (because cauterize is mobile plus fossilize guarantees that sorc will be struggling with stamina sustain = he won't be able to convert it to magicka = perpetuum mobile streak-conversion won't be working), but I can't face tank stamplar or magplar (if I don't have major evasion).
All those "ridiculously high WD builds" have generic counters like major evasion or high mobility and both doesn't require much sacrifice. That's why BRP DW receives so much hate, because that weapon set hard-counters all the meta stambuilds because quick cloak is amazing as it is, and then we have major protection to make applying Fury burst unreliable...
Countering streak spam requires multiple sacrifices - not only 1 ability slot and/or set but also additional sustain (Which is not needed against other classes). Well, of course there is generic counter to any ranged build, including magsorc - sitting in tower, running around the rock etc...
Overall, as outcome of this thread I think that OP is completely right. Streak itself is best gap closer/unblockable stun, but that's ok. But combination of streak+conversion is broken. There are multiple global solutions to this without direct nerfs to streak or deal/conversion. Make all cast time abilities (with exception of melee spammables) interruptable always no matter what, reduce cost of break free etc..
And streak spam itself requires sacrifices because it gets expensive fast. You shouldnt be dying to streak/conversion spam because the sorc will barely have time to attack you. Hell, you don't even need to cc break the streak if that is all the sorc is doing cause by the time he finishes his streak and conversion u will be already up without having to cc break.
If some sorc is constantly kiting u with streak, keep shields up and still managing to kill you then he outplayed you. Period. Spreading misinformation how he spent no resources to do that just so u can feel better and excuse ur loss won't make it true.
Ur stamplar can purge curse and u have a ranged cc. Be more careful when fighting a good sorc. Most people dying to sorcs is because they get overzealous spamming gap closers blowing their resources and not minding their defence and then they complain why the burst class is bursting them.
1. Under streak spam I mean using it on cc-immunity cooldown to drain opponent's resources
2. I'm not dying to this builds anymore because I sacrificed 2 jewelry enchants for recovery and now I can dance with this sorcs for 10minutes into stalemate, while over-sustaining against all other builds
3. "you don't even need to break free"... lol are you serious? if you don't break free it is GG against any competent player.
4. I didn't spread misinformation. Multiple people in this thread agreed with OP, i.e. they experience the same.
5. Purging curse is at least twice more expensive then curse and you can't afford to spam 4.8k magicka ability on stam build
6. Ranged cc - are you serious? 3k stamina for thing which will be blocked if not used in close proximity? Against competent players jav works only in melee range, otherwise it is blocked
7. Be more careful - yeah - run around the rock while onslaught is charging - this works. But you know sitting in LOS is BM in 1v1
1. CC immunity is the same for all classes. Just like u should have enough stam to cc break on cooldown other stuns the same applies for sorcs. If u don't have enough stam to cc break then get more sustain. That's not a problem with sorcs, that's ur problem. And if the sorc is only using streak on cc immunity cooldown then it shouldn't be a problem to close the gap.
2. So all it took to dance with a sorc and not die to them is get some sustain? My God, sorcs are so OP then. Funny thing is sorcs are playing sustain oriented setups with regen enchants and sets while also using dark conversion since forever. I guess welcome to their world.
3. Please read before u post. I said if the sorc is using streak into conversion then u don't even need to cc break. That was ur problem. That the sorc is streaking and then using dark conversion. Well guess what. That rotation requires some time to complete and u will be up before the sorc does anything else.
4. It's not a matter of experience. It's a matter of facts. Constantly using streak to kite while keeping shields up and trying to kill people costs a lot of resources. So yes u are spreading misinformation. Just read the tooltips to see how much they cost.
5. No need to spam it. You use it when u need it. No need to purge if u don't feel pressured. That's why I said be more careful and don't get overzealous.
6. Yes I'm serious. You use it to disrupt their combo. U got stunned u are low on resources and u feel pressured. Throw ur javelin to disrupt their combo. Again that's why I said be more careful.
7. No, be more careful as in, u need to be in control. If u get overzealous spamming gap closers blowing ur resources, letting ur buffs go down making mistakes and then dying then that's a problem with u. Again, most people dying to sorcs is because they get annoyed by the constant kiting and they do one mistake after the other. Keep cool and be in control. If you still die then I'm sorry some players are just better. Just like ur stamDK loses to stamplars then some times u are gonna lose to sorcs. Don't understand why this has to be a sorc problem.
Valid points, but we are saying the same, simply from different point of view.
I don't know about what we arguing, I am not calling for streak nerf, I'm just proposing to bring unchained+reduced break free cost to no-CP because imo it will make PVP way more healthy. I don't understand why anybody should be against this - it will be a buff to ALL classes.
I didn't say I'm against unchained or reduced cc break being part of no Cp. I'm just saying that sustaining ur Stam to cc break streak is the same crap like sustaining ur Stam to cc break every other stun and that the myth that sorcs have unlimited sustain and their skills are super cheap is exactly that. A myth.0 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
So you sit there and spam hard casted frags at people on a wood elf mag sorc? No wonder why you complain about stamina builds so much.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
So you sit there and spam hard casted frags at people on a wood elf mag sorc? No wonder why you complain about stamina builds so much.
Who said I just hard cast frags, and I don’t complain about stamina ‘so much’. There’s just so much hyperbole and whining and I correct the whiners. If you think spamming one ability is pvp then there isn’t much more to say.
I just watch players who’ve never learned how to play do nothing but whine in glass specs. This patch X class has the best burst, all the other classes pile on and whine. Then it rotates between classes, just people who haven’t learned how to play and rely on a stun combo in a glass spec so opponents aren’t able to fight back. Whichever class that patch has the best burst/stun gets piled on by everyone else.
If you’ve been paying attention I’ve said mag = stam; stam is stronger 1v1, they’re about even in BGs, and mag dominate group cyrodiil. Apparently stating the obvious pisses people off because it disturbs the pity party.Edited by Iskiab on March 3, 2020 10:11PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
So you sit there and spam hard casted frags at people on a wood elf mag sorc? No wonder why you complain about stamina builds so much.
Who said I just hard cast frags, and I don’t complain about stamina ‘so much’. There’s just so much hyperbole and whining and I correct the whiners. If you think spamming one ability is pvp then there isn’t much more to say.
I just watch players who’ve never learned how to play do nothing but whine in glass specs. This patch X class has the best burst, all the other classes pile on and whine. Then it rotates between classes, just people who haven’t learned how to play and rely on a stun combo in a glass spec so opponents aren’t able to fight back. Whichever class that patch has the best burst/stun gets piled on by everyone else.
If you’ve been paying attention I’ve said mag = stam; stam is stronger 1v1, they’re about even in BGs, and mag dominate group cyrodiil. Apparently stating the obvious pisses people off because it disturbs the pity party.
The fact that you are insinuating that people who play the game since day 1 and know the class inside and out never learned how to play while u are using crystal blast as a spammable is probably the definition of irony.4 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wonder when the stamina arsenal starts receiving ground shattering nerfs like magicka does all the time.
Remember when they basically halfed soul assaults damage and doubled the cost? Completly destroyed, useless. Anihilated without a trace of thought, care or consideration. Zenimax does not want you to use it anymore, just like they do not want you to use pets, destructive touch and many other abilities.
And it works. I have not seen a single soul assault since they completely destroyed it. Stamina needs some; it is time.
Yeah they somehow forgot to nerf bow ultimate too.. I tried use balista in noCp as magsorc and it work very vell
Then you realize something is very bad when you are using bow for dmg ultimate and speed from roll as magicka player , magicka have very poor ultimates, meteor is just joke0 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭Players constantly spam streak and convert, abilities that are in themselves overpowered for the cost. Streak is a huge aoe, hard CC, does decent damage, is a gap closer that requires no target, meaning it works as both an offensive and defensive ability and is used by stamina (the same reason petrify had a huge cost increase), the current 50% increase in cost is not enough, the ability should have a cost increase of 100% every time it is cast out of cooldown and the base cost increased by 1k. Likewise on Convert, the Ability is too often spammed, remove the channel from this ability as well as the instant resource return and make it like siphoning/leeching strikes, giving the full resources at the end or throughout then time of the buff. This would help improve sorc sustain in PVE and stop the spamming of a poorly balanced ability.
INB4 “SoRc NeRf ThReAd”, most people are bandwagon meta hopping petsorc players anyway, as its virtually unseen out of a zerg when its not the best solo class.
I think after the devs do their system performance sweep for the game they need to go through all abilities and adjustment them. For example the Warden Netch provides damage bonus and Stamina or Magika recovery for zero resource. It should use around 2500 or so given the damage bonus it provides.
0 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
Umm, because cast times are garbage. If something is not viable for dueling then it's too much of a burden to slot. What do you plan on doing when you're on the way to an objective and wind up in combat against an enemy along the way? Kindly whisper her to hold on until you switch up to your dueling setup?
Crystal Blast is nowhere near the potency of Dizzy Swing. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say everyone who has ever seriously tried this skill in PvP has never made an impact on the game, never has inspired someone to copy their build, never elicited the admiration of opponents.
I think I speak for most sorcerers when I say this: there have been many times I have unintentionally hard cast crystal frags because the animation for a proc is very similar to the Surge animation (which is dumb, but whatever) and against a PuG who fights like a target dummy, the skill is all right because it does act as a delayed burst as it can be immediately followed up with a light attack + fury. But it's hot garbage against anyone halfway decent who is on your ass casting Dizzy Swing or jabbing you or a Necro that drops a boneyard at your feet.
Sorcs have adapted: that's why they all got master destros when ZOS nerfed Frags and all ran Zoo builds when it buffed pets, and just about all I know did not need to be convinced Dark Conversion was a strong skill: they were all using it (I know this because they all waved their hands in my face causing me to curse ZOS's dumb changes that made abilities uninterruptible). Most don;t use Crystal Blast not because they are stuck in their ways, but because the skill is not worth slotting.
I do fine 1v1 against people using frag as a spammable, I just think in a dueling setting there are better options.
I’m not the best sorc, but I do well while playing mine. I value skill economy more than having a better spammable.
I also use one shield, I don’t see a reason to use two. One with streaking out of a bind works fine.
What I don’t get is all the magsorcs saying the class is terrible but being adamant that their way of playing is the only way. If you’re doing fine on sorc then continue, but for the people saying the class is weak and not even bothering to try different things...
Like I see magsorcs with under 20k health all the time. Of course you’re going to get wrecked, and of course it has nothing to do with the class.
I also see a lot of magsorcs haven’t adapted to the shields change yet. Stacking max magicka in a glass build makes your shields weaker, not stronger, unless you’re hit with an onslaught.
How can stacking max magicka make shields weaker when sorcerer shileds are stacking only from max magicka.. Do you know what are you even talking about?0 -
oxygen_thief✭✭✭✭✭
✭How can stacking max magicka make shields weaker when sorcerer shileds are stacking only from max magicka.. Do you know what are you even talking about?
shield strength is capped by 60% of sorcs health. theres no sense to invest into magicka to increase shields if health is lowEdited by oxygen_thief on March 4, 2020 3:57PM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
Umm, because cast times are garbage. If something is not viable for dueling then it's too much of a burden to slot. What do you plan on doing when you're on the way to an objective and wind up in combat against an enemy along the way? Kindly whisper her to hold on until you switch up to your dueling setup?
Crystal Blast is nowhere near the potency of Dizzy Swing. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say everyone who has ever seriously tried this skill in PvP has never made an impact on the game, never has inspired someone to copy their build, never elicited the admiration of opponents.
I think I speak for most sorcerers when I say this: there have been many times I have unintentionally hard cast crystal frags because the animation for a proc is very similar to the Surge animation (which is dumb, but whatever) and against a PuG who fights like a target dummy, the skill is all right because it does act as a delayed burst as it can be immediately followed up with a light attack + fury. But it's hot garbage against anyone halfway decent who is on your ass casting Dizzy Swing or jabbing you or a Necro that drops a boneyard at your feet.
Sorcs have adapted: that's why they all got master destros when ZOS nerfed Frags and all ran Zoo builds when it buffed pets, and just about all I know did not need to be convinced Dark Conversion was a strong skill: they were all using it (I know this because they all waved their hands in my face causing me to curse ZOS's dumb changes that made abilities uninterruptible). Most don;t use Crystal Blast not because they are stuck in their ways, but because the skill is not worth slotting.
I do fine 1v1 against people using frag as a spammable, I just think in a dueling setting there are better options.
I’m not the best sorc, but I do well while playing mine. I value skill economy more than having a better spammable.
I also use one shield, I don’t see a reason to use two. One with streaking out of a bind works fine.
What I don’t get is all the magsorcs saying the class is terrible but being adamant that their way of playing is the only way. If you’re doing fine on sorc then continue, but for the people saying the class is weak and not even bothering to try different things...
Like I see magsorcs with under 20k health all the time. Of course you’re going to get wrecked, and of course it has nothing to do with the class.
I also see a lot of magsorcs haven’t adapted to the shields change yet. Stacking max magicka in a glass build makes your shields weaker, not stronger, unless you’re hit with an onslaught.
How can stacking max magicka make shields weaker when sorcerer shileds are stacking only from max magicka.. Do you know what are you even talking about?
I think Iskiab means that if you have 20k/18k or similar resistances, which is fully penetrated by average CP build, you stacked 2 shields won't be a big difference to one shield while at higher resistances or with protection buffs.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
Um What?
- the best ranged spammable - Sorcs dont have a ranged spammable specific to their class.
- the best ranged execute - Maybe true before the nerf in PVP. Mages wrath is only used in large groups. It isnt worth a spot solo (or in a PVE damage rotation). The skill has been gutted pretty hard.
- the best magicka sustain ability - Maybe, but it takes a bar slot for sustain. Sorc is the only class in PVP where I specifically need to slot a skill for this purpose. It also has a cast time and can be interrupted.
- the highest single target heal in the game - Even if we agreed that twilight is the best heal in the game (I dont agree), it takes two slots and pets can die. In terms of practical self healing, sorcs are pretty low on this list.
- the best escape tool in the game - Cloak is the best escape tool in the game.
- the best stun in the game - DKs have the best stun in the game, but I will give streak a strong second place.3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
Um What?
- the best ranged spammable - Sorcs dont have a ranged spammable specific to their class.
- the best ranged execute - Maybe true before the nerf in PVP. Mages wrath is only used in large groups. It isnt worth a spot solo (or in a PVE damage rotation). The skill has been gutted pretty hard.
- the best magicka sustain ability - Maybe, but it takes a bar slot for sustain. Sorc is the only class in PVP where I specifically need to slot a skill for this purpose. It also has a cast time and can be interrupted.
- the highest single target heal in the game - Even if we agreed that twilight is the best heal in the game (I dont agree), it takes two slots and pets can die. In terms of practical self healing, sorcs are pretty low on this list.
- the best escape tool in the game - Cloak is the best escape tool in the game.
- the best stun in the game - DKs have the best stun in the game, but I will give streak a strong second place.
Though first 4 points are arguable, but last 2... you may say that cloak is comparable if you were fearing everybody in 6 meter radius while leaving cloak. Also cloak has direct hard-counters, while streak don't have ones, only soft counters. Give me a pot/poison to prevent opponent's streaking for 15 seconds plz.
Fossilize...
1. Fossilize is not better then streak - as active fossilize user I may say that immobilization happens at 50% of cases at best. At worst it might happen only on 3rd or 4th cast -> after changes to roll-dodge, RAT, shuffle, everybody has crazy uptime of immobilization immunity. And if opponent doesn't have root immunity tool it is same issue as "jabs being OP". If you are melee be sure to have major evasion. If you are in PVP be sure to have RAT/shuffle/mist - something from that. If you plan to fight with magsorcs be sure to slot gap closer which is generally not needed against all other classes and specs.
2. Fossilize is hard countered by cc-immunity pots. I.e. if your enemy is cc-immune you can't even cast it to replenish stamina and proc minor brutality. Issue is reinforced because cc-immunity from pot is not displayed on your opponent... Many players opens with cc-pot and try to burst you down during first 10 seconds and fossilize is absolutely useless in those 10 seconds. I understand know why so many stamDK stopped using it, and with new sets I plan to drop it as well.
3. Fossilize is hard counter to magsorc, so I understand why you place it as best. But against other classes it is not so good. Decent ability yes, but nothing more then that.
And now surprise - streak have both escape (and gap closer) and stun in 1 morph of 1 class... when cloak and fossilize are separate abilities of different classes. And cloak and fossilize are hard countered by pots... actually by the same pot if it is magicka pot
So again - don't need to nerf streak, all sorc power and class identity is contained in this ability now... but don't tell that fossilize and cloak are better then streak. No, not even comparable.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
Um What?
- the best ranged spammable - Sorcs dont have a ranged spammable specific to their class.
- the best ranged execute - Maybe true before the nerf in PVP. Mages wrath is only used in large groups. It isnt worth a spot solo (or in a PVE damage rotation). The skill has been gutted pretty hard.
- the best magicka sustain ability - Maybe, but it takes a bar slot for sustain. Sorc is the only class in PVP where I specifically need to slot a skill for this purpose. It also has a cast time and can be interrupted.
- the highest single target heal in the game - Even if we agreed that twilight is the best heal in the game (I dont agree), it takes two slots and pets can die. In terms of practical self healing, sorcs are pretty low on this list.
- the best escape tool in the game - Cloak is the best escape tool in the game.
- the best stun in the game - DKs have the best stun in the game, but I will give streak a strong second place.
Though first 4 points are arguable, but last 2... you may say that cloak is comparable if you were fearing everybody in 6 meter radius while leaving cloak. Also cloak has direct hard-counters, while streak don't have ones, only soft counters. Give me a pot/poison to prevent opponent's streaking for 15 seconds plz.
Fossilize...
1. Fossilize is not better then streak - as active fossilize user I may say that immobilization happens at 50% of cases at best. At worst it might happen only on 3rd or 4th cast -> after changes to roll-dodge, RAT, shuffle, everybody has crazy uptime of immobilization immunity. And if opponent doesn't have root immunity tool it is same issue as "jabs being OP". If you are melee be sure to have major evasion. If you are in PVP be sure to have RAT/shuffle/mist - something from that. If you plan to fight with magsorcs be sure to slot gap closer which is generally not needed against all other classes and specs.
2. Fossilize is hard countered by cc-immunity pots. I.e. if your enemy is cc-immune you can't even cast it to replenish stamina and proc minor brutality. Issue is reinforced because cc-immunity from pot is not displayed on your opponent... Many players opens with cc-pot and try to burst you down during first 10 seconds and fossilize is absolutely useless in those 10 seconds. I understand know why so many stamDK stopped using it, and with new sets I plan to drop it as well.
3. Fossilize is hard counter to magsorc, so I understand why you place it as best. But against other classes it is not so good. Decent ability yes, but nothing more then that.
And now surprise - streak have both escape (and gap closer) and stun in 1 morph of 1 class... when cloak and fossilize are separate abilities of different classes. And cloak and fossilize are hard countered by pots... actually by the same pot if it is magicka pot
So again - don't need to nerf streak, all sorc power and class identity is contained in this ability now... but don't tell that fossilize and cloak are better then streak. No, not even comparable.
Out of curiosity, how is the first point arguable? They dont have a class spammable.
As to cloak and fossilze, they are certainly comparable. It's absurd to suggest they arent. One is a stun, the other is an escape tool at their core, and both have auxiliary functions as well.
Fossilize, especially small scale is an insanely powerful tool. I love that your skill greys out if on immunity. It makes it so easy to track when someone is off cooldown. As for cloak, what percent of players actually slot a detect pot. It's not terribly high. Cloak is your best way to consistently reset a fight that is not going your way. If I need to GTFO out on my sorc, I dont spam streak, I pop an invis pot. Haha
Also, I certainly have the most time on my sorc, but second and third place are DK and NB. Last campaign I played every class both magic and stam (12 toons) to get on the board in the 30 day. I don't have the class bias that you perceive. I want a functional and healthy game, and I get how these skills function. Detect pots are hard counters to cloak, gap closers are hard counters to streak when used to escape. I think the best counter to a Streak is DK chains.
I will not deny that streak is the most powerful skill a sorc has at this point in PVP (I would not have said that 6 months ago). Every class can say the same thing about something. I certainly don't believe its the most powerful skill in the game. The problem is that so many other skills a sorc has a very one dimensional and pets take two bar slots. If streak gets parsed into multiple skills, sorcs are really going to struggle.
One thing I am very confident about saying after playing every spec for a few hours last campaign is that mag sorcs have the most cramped bars of any class. I also think they generally have to play a glassier build than a lot of other classes if they actually want to kill good players. Can you build to streak around for days? Sure, but if that sorc is killing you, you are bad. It's the equivalent of being killed by a troll tank. Most sorcs with enough damage to kill you might get 5-6 consecutive streaks. And if they do that, and get caught, they are toast because they are out of resources.
Let's also not forget that streak might be the worst skill in the game when heavy lag sets in. Half the time, you appear to streak and dont actually move.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
2. Fossilize is hard countered by cc-immunity pots. I.e. if your enemy is cc-immune you can't even cast it to replenish stamina and proc minor brutality. Issue is reinforced because cc-immunity from pot is not displayed on your opponent... Many players opens with cc-pot and try to burst you down during first 10 seconds and fossilize is absolutely useless in those 10 seconds. I understand know why so many stamDK stopped using it, and with new sets I plan to drop it as well. Hard countered by CC-immunity pots. LOL, oh the unfairness the DKs have to contend with! Edited by Joy_Division on March 4, 2020 8:32PM2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
2. Fossilize is hard countered by cc-immunity pots. I.e. if your enemy is cc-immune you can't even cast it to replenish stamina and proc minor brutality. Issue is reinforced because cc-immunity from pot is not displayed on your opponent... Many players opens with cc-pot and try to burst you down during first 10 seconds and fossilize is absolutely useless in those 10 seconds. I understand know why so many stamDK stopped using it, and with new sets I plan to drop it as well. Hard countered by CC-immunity pots. LOL, oh the unfairness the DKs have to contend with!
I just share my experience. I can easily see difference if opponent uses cc-pots or other pots. If he uses other pots fossilize is really good. If he uses cc-pot wherever he expects your combo or wherever he performs his combo, fossilize becomes wasted bar space. Of course all cc's are countered by cc-pots but fossilize simply doesn't work at all. You may say that it is an advantage but it is not. There are ton of things linked on rhythmic use of fossilize and if you can't use it, you are immediately in huge disadvantage. That's why I consider to stop relying on it and just spam dizzy and fragmented shield like other DKs.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
Um What?
- the best ranged spammable - Sorcs dont have a ranged spammable specific to their class.
- the best ranged execute - Maybe true before the nerf in PVP. Mages wrath is only used in large groups. It isnt worth a spot solo (or in a PVE damage rotation). The skill has been gutted pretty hard.
- the best magicka sustain ability - Maybe, but it takes a bar slot for sustain. Sorc is the only class in PVP where I specifically need to slot a skill for this purpose. It also has a cast time and can be interrupted.
- the highest single target heal in the game - Even if we agreed that twilight is the best heal in the game (I dont agree), it takes two slots and pets can die. In terms of practical self healing, sorcs are pretty low on this list.
- the best escape tool in the game - Cloak is the best escape tool in the game.
- the best stun in the game - DKs have the best stun in the game, but I will give streak a strong second place.
Though first 4 points are arguable, but last 2... you may say that cloak is comparable if you were fearing everybody in 6 meter radius while leaving cloak. Also cloak has direct hard-counters, while streak don't have ones, only soft counters. Give me a pot/poison to prevent opponent's streaking for 15 seconds plz.
Fossilize...
1. Fossilize is not better then streak - as active fossilize user I may say that immobilization happens at 50% of cases at best. At worst it might happen only on 3rd or 4th cast -> after changes to roll-dodge, RAT, shuffle, everybody has crazy uptime of immobilization immunity. And if opponent doesn't have root immunity tool it is same issue as "jabs being OP". If you are melee be sure to have major evasion. If you are in PVP be sure to have RAT/shuffle/mist - something from that. If you plan to fight with magsorcs be sure to slot gap closer which is generally not needed against all other classes and specs.
2. Fossilize is hard countered by cc-immunity pots. I.e. if your enemy is cc-immune you can't even cast it to replenish stamina and proc minor brutality. Issue is reinforced because cc-immunity from pot is not displayed on your opponent... Many players opens with cc-pot and try to burst you down during first 10 seconds and fossilize is absolutely useless in those 10 seconds. I understand know why so many stamDK stopped using it, and with new sets I plan to drop it as well.
3. Fossilize is hard counter to magsorc, so I understand why you place it as best. But against other classes it is not so good. Decent ability yes, but nothing more then that.
And now surprise - streak have both escape (and gap closer) and stun in 1 morph of 1 class... when cloak and fossilize are separate abilities of different classes. And cloak and fossilize are hard countered by pots... actually by the same pot if it is magicka pot
So again - don't need to nerf streak, all sorc power and class identity is contained in this ability now... but don't tell that fossilize and cloak are better then streak. No, not even comparable.
Out of curiosity, how is the first point arguable? They dont have a class spammable.
As to cloak and fossilze, they are certainly comparable. It's absurd to suggest they arent. One is a stun, the other is an escape tool at their core, and both have auxiliary functions as well.
Fossilize, especially small scale is an insanely powerful tool. I love that your skill greys out if on immunity. It makes it so easy to track when someone is off cooldown. As for cloak, what percent of players actually slot a detect pot. It's not terribly high. Cloak is your best way to consistently reset a fight that is not going your way. If I need to GTFO out on my sorc, I dont spam streak, I pop an invis pot. Haha
Also, I certainly have the most time on my sorc, but second and third place are DK and NB. Last campaign I played every class both magic and stam (12 toons) to get on the board in the 30 day. I don't have the class bias that you perceive. I want a functional and healthy game, and I get how these skills function. Detect pots are hard counters to cloak, gap closers are hard counters to streak when used to escape. I think the best counter to a Streak is DK chains.
I will not deny that streak is the most powerful skill a sorc has at this point in PVP (I would not have said that 6 months ago). Every class can say the same thing about something. I certainly don't believe its the most powerful skill in the game. The problem is that so many other skills a sorc has a very one dimensional and pets take two bar slots. If streak gets parsed into multiple skills, sorcs are really going to struggle.
One thing I am very confident about saying after playing every spec for a few hours last campaign is that mag sorcs have the most cramped bars of any class. I also think they generally have to play a glassier build than a lot of other classes if they actually want to kill good players. Can you build to streak around for days? Sure, but if that sorc is killing you, you are bad. It's the equivalent of being killed by a troll tank. Most sorcs with enough damage to kill you might get 5-6 consecutive streaks. And if they do that, and get caught, they are toast because they are out of resources.
Let's also not forget that streak might be the worst skill in the game when heavy lag sets in. Half the time, you appear to streak and dont actually move.
Frags are not spammable of course, but sometimes they work as one dependent on random proc. 35% is not 8%. 35% has a fair chance to proc more often then once in few GCD. That's why I switched to S&B backbar on latest build despite I hate this back bar. Because you can block all frags instead of dodging them and receive much less damage and spent less resources. Given that all other ranged class "spammables" deal no damage and are slow and... just useless, sorc is the only viable ranged class in the game. Because of frags, because of streak. Every class can use eleweapon or force pulse. But only sorc can weave them with frags applying bewildering damage spikes to non-blocking target. NB bow proc is not comparable... I see NBs are just keeping it for damage reduction and using exclusively during burst and never as "sustained damage".
About crumbled bars... ok, for all melee specs (i.e. all viable specs with exception of magsorc) major evasion is default requirement, i.e. elude or quick cloak = must have. Escape tool+snare removal -> mist = must have. Gap closer to fight sorcs = toppling charge/leap... must have. Stun.. ok, I'm lucky I have it in TC+off-balance on stamplar and on leap on stamDK other stamspecs had it from dizzy. Other mag classes then sorc need to use separate stun, with exception of magplar.
So just from the start to have any chances to not die from high dps meta classes in first few seconds i need to have this 3 abilities -elude or quick cloak, Mist, toppling charge/leap. Sorc doesn't direly need major evasion because streak immediately puts out of jabs/shalks... gap closer in streak, stun in streak, escape tool in streak. Crumbled bars, huh? Yes, matriarch takes 2 slots, but it heals like 2 abilities+pet body block+irritating zaps.
Now you can say that META 6k WD builds don't have gap closers, and don't have escape tools. Yeah, because they all run around the tower or tree. They never fight in open and always sprint from LOS to LOS.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nonsense. Frags are not only unreliable, but they don't proc themselves. You can't spam two frags one after another because, well, they're not a spammable. They are used for burst, just like the spectral bow.
Sorcs would gladly slot Major Evasion to deal with templars. But they can't. Because they need two shields and a heal to survive. That's three slots. Conversion, just for sustaining Streak, is another. Four slots used, just for defense and sustain.
And you know that many stam builds run S&B, right? It's a powerful weapon, even magicka builds and even magicka sorcs use it! Just to survive. Do you hear them crying?
I'll be blunt to make it clear: you sound spoiled. You don't want to slot gapclosers on a melee build to get in range. You don't want to use recovery jewelry to last in long fights. You don't want to use a defensive weapon to help survive longer. You don't even want to slot the best stun in the game to incapacitate your enemy reliably. And for some reason, it's unfair to you having to do that, while every other player does just that. Basically, you want everything, but at no cost. That's ridiculous.2 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭oxygen_thief wrote: »
He wrote ppl with 20k health.. 10k shield is hard to get in noCp ( im not counting cp its *** which shouldnt be in pvp)0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nonsense. Frags are not only unreliable, but they don't proc themselves. You can't spam two frags one after another because, well, they're not a spammable. They are used for burst, just like the spectral bow.
Sorcs would gladly slot Major Evasion to deal with templars. But they can't. Because they need two shields and a heal to survive. That's three slots. Conversion, just for sustaining Streak, is another. Four slots used, just for defense and sustain.
And you know that many stam builds run S&B, right? It's a powerful weapon, even magicka builds and even magicka sorcs use it! Just to survive. Do you hear them crying?
I'll be blunt to make it clear: you sound spoiled. You don't want to slot gapclosers on a melee build to get in range. You don't want to use recovery jewelry to last in long fights. You don't want to use a defensive weapon to help survive longer. You don't even want to slot the best stun in the game to incapacitate your enemy reliably. And for some reason, it's unfair to you having to do that, while every other player does just that. Basically, you want everything, but at no cost. That's ridiculous.
Where did I wrote that frags proc themselves? You use other magicka spammables and frags will proc. This provides ranged pressure incomparable to any other spec and tbh even higher then any melee pressure (if target won't be staying in one place eating dizzies). And ok your meteor on cooldown, you won't send frags when they are ready lol? You will fire them all time with exception of burst window when you might hold them for several GCD. When I fight magsorcs frags are like rain incoming every few GCD. This in incomparable to NB bow proc.
This is not nerf frags request, just an explanation why Iskiab called frags best class spammable. Because in practice it is semi-spammable.
About "spoiled" - you don't need all those - S&B, 2500 recovery, gap closer against any other spec maybe with exception of fear spamming NB with shade. But NB doesn't have magsorc's pressure and is countered by any aoe and/or detect pot. And if you'll look at "meta" builds they don't use gap closer, don't use high recovery and S&B is used mostly for 1vXing. For 1v1 BRP DW or master's bow will be generally better.0 -
ku5h✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Countering streak spam requires multiple sacrifices - not only 1 ability slot and/or set but also additional sustain (Which is not needed against other classes). Well, of course there is generic counter to any ranged build, including magsorc - sitting in tower, running around the rock etc...
.
Why? Do you have to do parkour style move while breaking Streak compared to any other CC in the game?
You've made that comment several times now and i still can't figure it out.
In any hard battle, 1v1, or big ones, you'll always be CCed on cooldown.
So again, where exactly did the Streak touch you that you have so much animosity towards it.
Hell, you should be happy your working against streak, since you know you won't be hit with any followup.
If you used this skill anytime at all, you'd know it's sub optimal CC in 1v1 scenario.
All non-overload sorcs time streak with meteor and frags and curse explosion all landing in same GCD or 2 GCD (dependent on luck, lag or skill). Also when streak is used offensively you can land in front of target.. of course it is easier said that then done with all the position de-sync issues but streak stun radius is pretty big, 5-6m - more then real to land in front of target and still stun it.
If burst coming in same or consequent GCD is not a follow-up, then what is?
My issue that fighting in open you need not only to break free, but also to gap close (or sprint) afterwards, while sorc will have free GCD to use conversion. All of this makes resource exchange 100% beneficial to magsorc. Of course it is rock-paper-scissor situation... if build has ranged pressure then he don't need to gap close... if build has ranged interrupt, dark deal/conversion will grant a free stun. If there is LOS... but hey, if there is LOS no meta build has any chances to die at all if there will be no serious mistakes or lag/de-sync.
So you all can tell me that I'm complaining that ranged mobile build have advantage over full melee build in open space... yes, but don't tell me that sorc is weak or inferior to meta stam specs like many magsorcs claim. Fact that 6k WD stam builds can burst magsorc in 2 GCD, sorc can burst them in 2 GCD as well or simply play defensively with resource drain strategy. If sorc (or any other build/class) manage to kill me in 2-3 GCD, I will only applaud and whisper "good job, nice damage". Unfortunately it is extremely rare case, vast majority of players rely on some cheeze, glitchy stun or resource drain etc..
Only thing that you said that is right is that magSorc actually try and land their Streak as near to the target as possible, to give them selves the biggest chance to actually land that followup Frag. So that alone is killing your claim you need extra res to deal with it.
So tell me what's worse, your melee stam having to make one step and be in range, or my ranged build having to end my combo in front of my targets face, turn, re target and then followup.
Also, ppl that think magSorc have great burst are just funny at this point.
I'm destroying ppl left and right on my stamSorc and magPlar, that my magSorcs can only dream of killing while still have enough to survive them. Btw my magSorcs are AR50 and AR30ish, so by far most exp on magSorc.
0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But ok - you persuaded me. I'll race change my stamsorc to dunmer and see it from your side. I avoided playing magsorc for years simply because class always looked like pure OP, but now it is not the case anymore, so I may try to run one.0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nonsense. Frags are not only unreliable, but they don't proc themselves. You can't spam two frags one after another because, well, they're not a spammable. They are used for burst, just like the spectral bow.
Sorcs would gladly slot Major Evasion to deal with templars. But they can't. Because they need two shields and a heal to survive. That's three slots. Conversion, just for sustaining Streak, is another. Four slots used, just for defense and sustain.
And you know that many stam builds run S&B, right? It's a powerful weapon, even magicka builds and even magicka sorcs use it! Just to survive. Do you hear them crying?
I'll be blunt to make it clear: you sound spoiled. You don't want to slot gapclosers on a melee build to get in range. You don't want to use recovery jewelry to last in long fights. You don't want to use a defensive weapon to help survive longer. You don't even want to slot the best stun in the game to incapacitate your enemy reliably. And for some reason, it's unfair to you having to do that, while every other player does just that. Basically, you want everything, but at no cost. That's ridiculous.
Think about how much regen 2 conversions is the equivalent to on top of a burst heal. You can quite easily run around with 1200 regen on a magsorc with no sustain issues, try that with anything other than a magdk and see how you go. The other issue is how the main Hard CC also works as both a panic group CC, a gap close and an escape all tied in to one for less than the cost of fossilise.
You say “Spoiled”, how many stam builds With sword and board have a stam cost source of major expedition? Magica builds are ridiculously spoiled, cheap source of snare immunity and expedition tied together in the main stat pool coupled with the ability to hold block on a sword and board then use ridiculously overpowered burst heals every time the going gets tough, amd on top on a magsorc, you spam streak 3 times, convert twice and its like you just used a health and magica pot whilst you’ve moved away so far they can’t target you.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Countering streak spam requires multiple sacrifices - not only 1 ability slot and/or set but also additional sustain (Which is not needed against other classes). Well, of course there is generic counter to any ranged build, including magsorc - sitting in tower, running around the rock etc...
.
Why? Do you have to do parkour style move while breaking Streak compared to any other CC in the game?
You've made that comment several times now and i still can't figure it out.
In any hard battle, 1v1, or big ones, you'll always be CCed on cooldown.
So again, where exactly did the Streak touch you that you have so much animosity towards it.
Hell, you should be happy your working against streak, since you know you won't be hit with any followup.
If you used this skill anytime at all, you'd know it's sub optimal CC in 1v1 scenario.
All non-overload sorcs time streak with meteor and frags and curse explosion all landing in same GCD or 2 GCD (dependent on luck, lag or skill). Also when streak is used offensively you can land in front of target.. of course it is easier said that then done with all the position de-sync issues but streak stun radius is pretty big, 5-6m - more then real to land in front of target and still stun it.
If burst coming in same or consequent GCD is not a follow-up, then what is?
My issue that fighting in open you need not only to break free, but also to gap close (or sprint) afterwards, while sorc will have free GCD to use conversion. All of this makes resource exchange 100% beneficial to magsorc. Of course it is rock-paper-scissor situation... if build has ranged pressure then he don't need to gap close... if build has ranged interrupt, dark deal/conversion will grant a free stun. If there is LOS... but hey, if there is LOS no meta build has any chances to die at all if there will be no serious mistakes or lag/de-sync.
So you all can tell me that I'm complaining that ranged mobile build have advantage over full melee build in open space... yes, but don't tell me that sorc is weak or inferior to meta stam specs like many magsorcs claim. Fact that 6k WD stam builds can burst magsorc in 2 GCD, sorc can burst them in 2 GCD as well or simply play defensively with resource drain strategy. If sorc (or any other build/class) manage to kill me in 2-3 GCD, I will only applaud and whisper "good job, nice damage". Unfortunately it is extremely rare case, vast majority of players rely on some cheeze, glitchy stun or resource drain etc..
Only thing that you said that is right is that magSorc actually try and land their Streak as near to the target as possible, to give them selves the biggest chance to actually land that followup Frag. So that alone is killing your claim you need extra res to deal with it.
So tell me what's worse, your melee stam having to make one step and be in range, or my ranged build having to end my combo in front of my targets face, turn, re target and then followup.
Also, ppl that think magSorc have great burst are just funny at this point.
I'm destroying ppl left and right on my stamSorc and magPlar, that my magSorcs can only dream of killing while still have enough to survive them. Btw my magSorcs are AR50 and AR30ish, so by far most exp on magSorc.
Man, I think streak can be used defensively, offensively and as resource drain (last case is discussed in this thread).
Sorc will land in front of you only on offensive streak. But here I agree with you in terms that it is perfect time for counter-attack and probably the only time window where you can deal with magsorc without outsustaining him - i.e. see meteor - gulp cc-pot immediately and use your burst on sorc who just jumped to stun you. Burst inside burst. Works perfectly on stamDK because battle roar gives an edge in such situation.
Overall it sounds from magsorcs like if there is situation where streak is countered, this immediately makes streak ability inferior to fossilize/cloak whatever. No! Streak is one of the best abilities in the game right now, if not the best. Anyway, as I said I'll make my own magsorc and see how it plays without necessity to carry whole pack of crutches on your backbar (i.e. shuffle, mist etc).1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nonsense. Frags are not only unreliable, but they don't proc themselves. You can't spam two frags one after another because, well, they're not a spammable. They are used for burst, just like the spectral bow.
Sorcs would gladly slot Major Evasion to deal with templars. But they can't. Because they need two shields and a heal to survive. That's three slots. Conversion, just for sustaining Streak, is another. Four slots used, just for defense and sustain.
And you know that many stam builds run S&B, right? It's a powerful weapon, even magicka builds and even magicka sorcs use it! Just to survive. Do you hear them crying?
I'll be blunt to make it clear: you sound spoiled. You don't want to slot gapclosers on a melee build to get in range. You don't want to use recovery jewelry to last in long fights. You don't want to use a defensive weapon to help survive longer. You don't even want to slot the best stun in the game to incapacitate your enemy reliably. And for some reason, it's unfair to you having to do that, while every other player does just that. Basically, you want everything, but at no cost. That's ridiculous.
Think about how much regen 2 conversions is the equivalent to on top of a burst heal. You can quite easily run around with 1200 regen on a magsorc with no sustain issues, try that with anything other than a magdk and see how you go. The other issue is how the main Hard CC also works as both a panic group CC, a gap close and an escape all tied in to one for less than the cost of fossilise.
You say “Spoiled”, how many stam builds With sword and board have a stam cost source of major expedition? Magica builds are ridiculously spoiled, cheap source of snare immunity and expedition tied together in the main stat pool coupled with the ability to hold block on a sword and board then use ridiculously overpowered burst heals every time the going gets tough, amd on top on a magsorc, you spam streak 3 times, convert twice and its like you just used a health and magica pot whilst you’ve moved away so far they can’t target you.
Sure. Go into Cyro with 1200 regen. You don't know what you're talking about. You'll just keep conversing and do nothing besides it, until your stam runs dry and you're perma-CC'ed.
I'll ignore the rest. It's wrong in so many aspects, I don't even know where to start.2 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »kyle.wilson wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable, posion inject is used far more than force pulse in pvp
- the best ranged execute, executioner scales earlier and faster
- the best magicka sustain ability. My magdk has vastly better sustain than my sorcs
- the highest single target heal in the game. You do know wardens exist, right?
- the best escape tool in the game. NB stealth
- the best stun in the game. possibly, but i'd equal that with dks
If you cc a mag sorc more than twice, they usually streak away in a panic.
Ranged spammable: frag
Ranged execute: wrath, executioner is melee
Highest burst heal: Matriarch, the best warden burst heal is about half the matriarch’s value
Best escape: Ball of lightning is better than cloak
Best stun: fossilize is really good, but streak is AoE and unblockable.
Like I said, try playing more classes.
What? Frags isn't a spammable. Mages wrath is awful and streak / bol is about as good as cloak is. You tell others to play more classes but you clearly don't understand how sorcerer or for that matter, how the game works in general.
I play a magsorc as well. I use frags as my spammable in a petsorc build.
It’s not viable for dueling, but for BGs it works fine. If you haven’t noticed dizzy and snipe both have cast times, I have no idea why sorcs think cast times makes an ability garbage, it makes an ability stronger because of the damage coming at the end of the GCD.
Most sorc issues with their class seem to be that they haven’t adapted their playstyle in a couple years and don’t test their abilities.
This thread existing should be proof enough. I had to argue with sorcs that dark conversion was a good ability along with overload. Now I see them all the time.
Umm, because cast times are garbage. If something is not viable for dueling then it's too much of a burden to slot. What do you plan on doing when you're on the way to an objective and wind up in combat against an enemy along the way? Kindly whisper her to hold on until you switch up to your dueling setup?
Crystal Blast is nowhere near the potency of Dizzy Swing. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say everyone who has ever seriously tried this skill in PvP has never made an impact on the game, never has inspired someone to copy their build, never elicited the admiration of opponents.
I think I speak for most sorcerers when I say this: there have been many times I have unintentionally hard cast crystal frags because the animation for a proc is very similar to the Surge animation (which is dumb, but whatever) and against a PuG who fights like a target dummy, the skill is all right because it does act as a delayed burst as it can be immediately followed up with a light attack + fury. But it's hot garbage against anyone halfway decent who is on your ass casting Dizzy Swing or jabbing you or a Necro that drops a boneyard at your feet.
Sorcs have adapted: that's why they all got master destros when ZOS nerfed Frags and all ran Zoo builds when it buffed pets, and just about all I know did not need to be convinced Dark Conversion was a strong skill: they were all using it (I know this because they all waved their hands in my face causing me to curse ZOS's dumb changes that made abilities uninterruptible). Most don;t use Crystal Blast not because they are stuck in their ways, but because the skill is not worth slotting.
I do fine 1v1 against people using frag as a spammable, I just think in a dueling setting there are better options.
I’m not the best sorc, but I do well while playing mine. I value skill economy more than having a better spammable.
I also use one shield, I don’t see a reason to use two. One with streaking out of a bind works fine.
What I don’t get is all the magsorcs saying the class is terrible but being adamant that their way of playing is the only way. If you’re doing fine on sorc then continue, but for the people saying the class is weak and not even bothering to try different things...
Like I see magsorcs with under 20k health all the time. Of course you’re going to get wrecked, and of course it has nothing to do with the class.
I also see a lot of magsorcs haven’t adapted to the shields change yet. Stacking max magicka in a glass build makes your shields weaker, not stronger, unless you’re hit with an onslaught.
It actually bothers me when people say they do "fine" on mag sorc.
From my years of playing sorc the class is highly limited in what it can do right now compared to what it used to be.
The game is headed for certain doom when players have such low standards
Certain ppl need to get out of spamming endless fury in BG's or apparently trying to small scale or claiming to small scale on their mag sorc. Actually do some real PVP or duel good players for a change before passing judgements on a class.
Potato mashing, and fury spamming in bgs is not the same thing as any sort of competitive play. Solo outnumbered cyrodil or premade 4v4v4v's0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Streak is the last good ability Sorcerer has left. Everything else was overnerfed.
And in pvp, Streak is not even the issue. Most Sorcerers use Ball of Lightning, which is truly overperforming.
Purges you of roots and slows and grants you immortality against all ranged magicka builds by absorbing projectiles.
Be glad of those few using streak still. At least you can kill those.
Also; if Zenimax wants to force Sorcerers into melee range with this, then that is absolutely fine. Sorcerer is not suited to be in melee range, yet that is where Streak is usable offensively. So it is good they have something for this situation.
And oh gods! It is but a stun. Break free from it and be done with it. The Sorcerer needs a moment to turn around after streaking through you to follow up with crystal shard or something else. By that time any decent play has already broken free. And curse and meteor alone have never killed anyone on their own.
Posts like this... wow. You should really try playing other classes sometime. Almost all sorc skills are better than other class skills across the board.
Being ‘unkillable’ is only the baseline for being a good ability in sorc’s minds.
You do understand that most class abilities are significantly stronger numerically across the board for every other class right.
No they aren’t even close. Magsorc has:
- the best ranged spammable
- the best ranged execute
- the best magicka sustain ability
- the highest single target heal in the game
- the best escape tool in the game
- the best stun in the game
Isn’t that enough? Seriously, try playing other mag classes. The downside of sorc is squishiness.
Um What?
- the best ranged spammable - Sorcs dont have a ranged spammable specific to their class.
- the best ranged execute - Maybe true before the nerf in PVP. Mages wrath is only used in large groups. It isnt worth a spot solo (or in a PVE damage rotation). The skill has been gutted pretty hard.
- the best magicka sustain ability - Maybe, but it takes a bar slot for sustain. Sorc is the only class in PVP where I specifically need to slot a skill for this purpose. It also has a cast time and can be interrupted.
- the highest single target heal in the game - Even if we agreed that twilight is the best heal in the game (I dont agree), it takes two slots and pets can die. In terms of practical self healing, sorcs are pretty low on this list.
- the best escape tool in the game - Cloak is the best escape tool in the game.
- the best stun in the game - DKs have the best stun in the game, but I will give streak a strong second place.
Though first 4 points are arguable, but last 2... you may say that cloak is comparable if you were fearing everybody in 6 meter radius while leaving cloak. Also cloak has direct hard-counters, while streak don't have ones, only soft counters. Give me a pot/poison to prevent opponent's streaking for 15 seconds plz.
Fossilize...
1. Fossilize is not better then streak - as active fossilize user I may say that immobilization happens at 50% of cases at best. At worst it might happen only on 3rd or 4th cast -> after changes to roll-dodge, RAT, shuffle, everybody has crazy uptime of immobilization immunity. And if opponent doesn't have root immunity tool it is same issue as "jabs being OP". If you are melee be sure to have major evasion. If you are in PVP be sure to have RAT/shuffle/mist - something from that. If you plan to fight with magsorcs be sure to slot gap closer which is generally not needed against all other classes and specs.
2. Fossilize is hard countered by cc-immunity pots. I.e. if your enemy is cc-immune you can't even cast it to replenish stamina and proc minor brutality. Issue is reinforced because cc-immunity from pot is not displayed on your opponent... Many players opens with cc-pot and try to burst you down during first 10 seconds and fossilize is absolutely useless in those 10 seconds. I understand know why so many stamDK stopped using it, and with new sets I plan to drop it as well.
3. Fossilize is hard counter to magsorc, so I understand why you place it as best. But against other classes it is not so good. Decent ability yes, but nothing more then that.
And now surprise - streak have both escape (and gap closer) and stun in 1 morph of 1 class... when cloak and fossilize are separate abilities of different classes. And cloak and fossilize are hard countered by pots... actually by the same pot if it is magicka pot
So again - don't need to nerf streak, all sorc power and class identity is contained in this ability now... but don't tell that fossilize and cloak are better then streak. No, not even comparable.
Out of curiosity, how is the first point arguable? They dont have a class spammable.
As to cloak and fossilze, they are certainly comparable. It's absurd to suggest they arent. One is a stun, the other is an escape tool at their core, and both have auxiliary functions as well.
Fossilize, especially small scale is an insanely powerful tool. I love that your skill greys out if on immunity. It makes it so easy to track when someone is off cooldown. As for cloak, what percent of players actually slot a detect pot. It's not terribly high. Cloak is your best way to consistently reset a fight that is not going your way. If I need to GTFO out on my sorc, I dont spam streak, I pop an invis pot. Haha
Also, I certainly have the most time on my sorc, but second and third place are DK and NB. Last campaign I played every class both magic and stam (12 toons) to get on the board in the 30 day. I don't have the class bias that you perceive. I want a functional and healthy game, and I get how these skills function. Detect pots are hard counters to cloak, gap closers are hard counters to streak when used to escape. I think the best counter to a Streak is DK chains.
I will not deny that streak is the most powerful skill a sorc has at this point in PVP (I would not have said that 6 months ago). Every class can say the same thing about something. I certainly don't believe its the most powerful skill in the game. The problem is that so many other skills a sorc has a very one dimensional and pets take two bar slots. If streak gets parsed into multiple skills, sorcs are really going to struggle.
One thing I am very confident about saying after playing every spec for a few hours last campaign is that mag sorcs have the most cramped bars of any class. I also think they generally have to play a glassier build than a lot of other classes if they actually want to kill good players. Can you build to streak around for days? Sure, but if that sorc is killing you, you are bad. It's the equivalent of being killed by a troll tank. Most sorcs with enough damage to kill you might get 5-6 consecutive streaks. And if they do that, and get caught, they are toast because they are out of resources.
Let's also not forget that streak might be the worst skill in the game when heavy lag sets in. Half the time, you appear to streak and dont actually move.
Frags are not spammable of course, but sometimes they work as one dependent on random proc. 35% is not 8%. 35% has a fair chance to proc more often then once in few GCD. That's why I switched to S&B backbar on latest build despite I hate this back bar. Because you can block all frags instead of dodging them and receive much less damage and spent less resources. Given that all other ranged class "spammables" deal no damage and are slow and... just useless, sorc is the only viable ranged class in the game. Because of frags, because of streak. Every class can use eleweapon or force pulse. But only sorc can weave them with frags applying bewildering damage spikes to non-blocking target. NB bow proc is not comparable... I see NBs are just keeping it for damage reduction and using exclusively during burst and never as "sustained damage".
About crumbled bars... ok, for all melee specs (i.e. all viable specs with exception of magsorc) major evasion is default requirement, i.e. elude or quick cloak = must have. Escape tool+snare removal -> mist = must have. Gap closer to fight sorcs = toppling charge/leap... must have. Stun.. ok, I'm lucky I have it in TC+off-balance on stamplar and on leap on stamDK other stamspecs had it from dizzy. Other mag classes then sorc need to use separate stun, with exception of magplar.
So just from the start to have any chances to not die from high dps meta classes in first few seconds i need to have this 3 abilities -elude or quick cloak, Mist, toppling charge/leap. Sorc doesn't direly need major evasion because streak immediately puts out of jabs/shalks... gap closer in streak, stun in streak, escape tool in streak. Crumbled bars, huh? Yes, matriarch takes 2 slots, but it heals like 2 abilities+pet body block+irritating zaps.
Now you can say that META 6k WD builds don't have gap closers, and don't have escape tools. Yeah, because they all run around the tower or tree. They never fight in open and always sprint from LOS to LOS.
NB bow proc is absolutely the most comparable skill to frags in this game, and of course, neither are spammable. A spammable cant have a condition precedent to fire. Frags is easier to use because it doesnt require a weave, but a bow proc is more deadly. The frag will on average fire more often for most people, but it is RNG dependent. Yeah you can proc a few in a row, but you can also cast 10 skills without one firing.
For a good nightblade, every 5th cast is a bow proc, and on a sorc, every 4th FRONT BAR skill is frag. Assuming you bar swap frequently and actually use and weave back bar skills, You can actually fire a bow proc more often on average than a frag. If I could, i would trade frags for merciless in an instant. Just because two skills arent identical, doesnt mean you cant compare them for the purposes of discussion.0