Animation canceling - forum war

Casterial · February 2020

should stay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

Koensol · February 2020

should stay

Gilvoth wrote: »

last night a sorc hit me with 3 skills instantly.
that is not something the developers imagined when they designed skills.

You've been playing since beta and still don't know that magsorc has delayed skills. That alone should be enough proof you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

SenpaiNFT · February 2020

should stay

Numbers don’t lie; overwhelming majority wants it to stay.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please pass this along upstairs, majority of forums is for animation cancelling.

dinokstrunz · February 2020

should stay

Without a doubt should stay it adds an extra layer mechanic to learn for both end game PvE and PvP. More to do and more to perfect. We've already seen ZoS disastrous adjustments to slow the game down with cast times and combat doesn't need to be slowed down even more.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · February 2020

should go

Personnal opinion
If you cancel a fire ball its damage should be canceled too since it never it the target

IndianaJames7 · February 2020

should stay

Removing anim cancelling would cause the biggest single day permanent exodus of long term players eso has ever seen. They will never do it.

Regal_Imp · February 2020

should stay

Ani cancelling is pretty much a part of every advanced game, its an important way to differentiate skill levels between players.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · February 2020

should stay

StaticWave wrote: »

Us pro-Ac players are still waiting for a solid argument against AC. So far the most common one we've seen is: "it's a glitch". Not only has that claim been disproven, but is a feature fully supported by ZOS. It is actually pretty hilarious to see them regurgitate the same debunked point over and over and over, because they can't argue with us from a technical standpoint. Most of them probably don't fully understand how the game works. They probably don't even know what animation types stand on the priority list. They probably don't know about the different GCD of those animation types. They'll still make the same arguments though, but have zero data or evidence to back it up xD.

I struggle with ani-cancel.

So I tank.

Boom.

Problem solved. My guild loves me on Trials now. XD

r3turn2s3nd3r · February 2020

should stay

kathandira wrote: »

I love the "Leave this game if you don't like it" responses.

Currently the poll is near 60% who like it, 40% don't. Now we know those on the forums are not real representation of the number of players who play the game. But if it were, these people would be asking for a 40% reduction in the player base.

Consider this when taking such an absolute approach.

And we can just as easily flip this comment to "The anti-AC people are asking for a 60% reduction in player base if they get their way." Lose 60% or lose 40%. Hmmmm, wonder which way the board of director$ would go?

IndianaJames7 · February 2020

should stay

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Us pro-Ac players are still waiting for a solid argument against AC. So far the most common one we've seen is: "it's a glitch". Not only has that claim been disproven, but is a feature fully supported by ZOS. It is actually pretty hilarious to see them regurgitate the same debunked point over and over and over, because they can't argue with us from a technical standpoint. Most of them probably don't fully understand how the game works. They probably don't even know what animation types stand on the priority list. They probably don't know about the different GCD of those animation types. They'll still make the same arguments though, but have zero data or evidence to back it up xD.

I struggle with ani-cancel.

So I tank.

Boom.

Problem solved. My guild loves me on Trials now. XD

People like you are the real MVPs

Carespanker · February 2020

should stay

idk wrote: »

Carespanker wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Carespanker wrote: »

My first and only problem with AC has always been that it's not taught. 95% of the people who play this game can't play the game to the fullest because they don't know how to AC+weave. Do you understand how embarrassing it is to have to teach 810s how to AC because they "Cant pull over 25k with this Alcast build." ? Majority of the pledges can't be pugged because even though my necro tank can increase overall group dps by 55% (with my own theory craft shenanigans) it doesn't matter because the average group DPS is so low due to people of all cp not knowing how to AC+weave (around 40k group dps with my buffs). Why? Because 95% of this game doesn't know how to play this game and it sickens me...

If its in the game it should have a tutorial at the start, not a blink and you'll miss it loading screen tip!

This is an odd reason to argue against pretty much anything. The game does not teach much more than to block or heavy attack. Player have to learn on their own how to use each skill.

Please tell me where in the game has Zos shown us how each skill can be sued most effectively? In every MMORPG I have played it is players that learn how to play the game best and teach other players what they learned. Theorcrafters find the best rotations, best builds and in the end know more about how to play the game than the devs.

Heck, the fact they cannot pull more than 25k without weaving basic attacks shows they are still learning the basics.

Edit: BTW, please back up what you are claiming as a fact. I do not think you have any information to back up that 95% of players can or cannot do AC and are just pulling that number out of thin air in an attempt to make a point based on false information. Further, the idea of it even ignores that some people just do not care about this at all.

As much as I love making up statistics based on personal experience, im willing to bet real money that 99% of the game thats made it past level 10 can tell you how to block and heavy attack. Ya know why? because its the first thing they show you how to do in the tutorial of the game which cannot be skipped unless you have done it before. Unlike animation canceling, blocking and heavy attacking are basic controls while AC is more of a skill/muscle memory and just like any other muscle memories the longer you do it the easier it is to do. Thus if it was in the unskippable tutorial people would have an easier time in the game at 810... instead of pulling 25k dps...

Based on my personal experience over half the players weave LAs like a pro. I know my personal experience does not reflect the game. As such I do not tough what is clearly false and manufactured statistics as though they are fact.

As far as not being able to exceed 25k dps, their problem is not the lack of AC but more along the lines of basic skills. I have also known players were are find with doing 25k dps. That is probably a big part of the game. They just enjoy playing it and have no interest in putting in the time to do the high dps numbers.

Then they should be locked to non-veteran content where they can enjoy the game all they want without ruining the day for people who want to clear dungeons from 2015 and beyond in under an hour and a half. Its better they stay out of vets altogether instead of me kicking them after an hour and half due to them not being able to pull their weight because they won't take the time to figure out how to play the game. Unlike everyone else in this thread im not going to beat around the bush on this statement; I don't care how they are enjoying the game so long as it doesn't affect me enjoying the game and them not knowing how to AC is affecting me not enjoying doing challenging content in a reasonable amount of time.

Siohwenoeht · February 2020

should stay

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

The only reason why you guys are in a uproar about this because you know change is in the air. You feel it is coming.

We got the ultimate changed.
We got blocking changed.

AC is just a matter of time.

if it happens, gl complating literally any vet for average ESO player without completely also reworking this content along with its mechanics xD

you want to get rid of "basic" of combat system without admiting to this overall combat, mechanics in this game so

Oh im sure some growing pains will happen and some things will get rebalance, but it is coming.

That unease you pro AC are feeling. You know it in your hearts that at last..We are slowly fixing this exploit.

Lol. I wasn't 100% certain before now, but keeping on trolling buddy. 😉

Agenericname · February 2020

should stay

r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

I love the "Leave this game if you don't like it" responses.

Currently the poll is near 60% who like it, 40% don't. Now we know those on the forums are not real representation of the number of players who play the game. But if it were, these people would be asking for a 40% reduction in the player base.

Consider this when taking such an absolute approach.

And we can just as easily flip this comment to "The anti-AC people are asking for a 60% reduction in player base if they get their way." Lose 60% or lose 40%. Hmmmm, wonder which way the board of director$ would go?

Neither. With a 40% reduction in players, factoring in how many use the sub and pay for the game in other ways, they would be deep in damage control territory with either option and would likely avoid it all cost.

StaticWave · February 2020

should stay

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Us pro-Ac players are still waiting for a solid argument against AC. So far the most common one we've seen is: "it's a glitch". Not only has that claim been disproven, but is a feature fully supported by ZOS. It is actually pretty hilarious to see them regurgitate the same debunked point over and over and over, because they can't argue with us from a technical standpoint. Most of them probably don't fully understand how the game works. They probably don't even know what animation types stand on the priority list. They probably don't know about the different GCD of those animation types. They'll still make the same arguments though, but have zero data or evidence to back it up xD.

I struggle with ani-cancel.

So I tank.

Boom.

Problem solved. My guild loves me on Trials now. XD

xD We need more players like you my friend.

kathandira · February 2020

should go

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Us pro-Ac players are still waiting for a solid argument against AC. So far the most common one we've seen is: "it's a glitch". Not only has that claim been disproven, but is a feature fully supported by ZOS. It is actually pretty hilarious to see them regurgitate the same debunked point over and over and over, because they can't argue with us from a technical standpoint. Most of them probably don't fully understand how the game works. They probably don't even know what animation types stand on the priority list. They probably don't know about the different GCD of those animation types. They'll still make the same arguments though, but have zero data or evidence to back it up xD.

I struggle with ani-cancel.

So I tank.

Boom.

Problem solved. My guild loves me on Trials now. XD

Huh?! As a tank you still need to Animation Cancel. It's even more important than a DPS doing it at times. And LA Weaving on a tank is still a thing as well.

Carespanker · February 2020

should stay

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Us pro-Ac players are still waiting for a solid argument against AC. So far the most common one we've seen is: "it's a glitch". Not only has that claim been disproven, but is a feature fully supported by ZOS. It is actually pretty hilarious to see them regurgitate the same debunked point over and over and over, because they can't argue with us from a technical standpoint. Most of them probably don't fully understand how the game works. They probably don't even know what animation types stand on the priority list. They probably don't know about the different GCD of those animation types. They'll still make the same arguments though, but have zero data or evidence to back it up xD.

I struggle with ani-cancel.

So I tank.

Boom.

Problem solved. My guild loves me on Trials now. XD

Thing is imo there are too many tanks nowadays because they realized they don't have to AC lol. Recruiting in crag takes ages to find DPS to fill because too many people swapped to tank!

kathandira · February 2020

should go

Am I missing something? Tanks don't animation cancel?

When you are activating a skill, and you need to immediately block, causing that skills animation to be cancelled so the block is activated in time...is that not animation cancelling? Same with interrupting with a Bash.

Carespanker · February 2020

should stay

kathandira wrote: »

Am I missing something? Tanks don't animation cancel?

When you are activating a skill, and you need to immediately block, causing that skills animation to be cancelled so the block is activated in time...is that not animation cancelling? Same with interrupting with a Bash.

They can, and the good ones do/have to in endgame content like vBRP or HM trials to have any kind of chance of clearing them. But most content can be done by taunting once and pressing meditate nowadays because zos cant make tanking hard.... well its harder than healing at least.

Agenericname · February 2020

should stay

Carespanker wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Us pro-Ac players are still waiting for a solid argument against AC. So far the most common one we've seen is: "it's a glitch". Not only has that claim been disproven, but is a feature fully supported by ZOS. It is actually pretty hilarious to see them regurgitate the same debunked point over and over and over, because they can't argue with us from a technical standpoint. Most of them probably don't fully understand how the game works. They probably don't even know what animation types stand on the priority list. They probably don't know about the different GCD of those animation types. They'll still make the same arguments though, but have zero data or evidence to back it up xD.

I struggle with ani-cancel.

So I tank.

Boom.

Problem solved. My guild loves me on Trials now. XD

Thing is imo there are too many tanks nowadays because they realized they don't have to AC lol. Recruiting in crag takes ages to find DPS to fill because too many people swapped to tank!

Tanks use animation canceling quite a bit. Thats what baffles me about people wanting to have it removed.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · February 2020

should stay

kathandira wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Us pro-Ac players are still waiting for a solid argument against AC. So far the most common one we've seen is: "it's a glitch". Not only has that claim been disproven, but is a feature fully supported by ZOS. It is actually pretty hilarious to see them regurgitate the same debunked point over and over and over, because they can't argue with us from a technical standpoint. Most of them probably don't fully understand how the game works. They probably don't even know what animation types stand on the priority list. They probably don't know about the different GCD of those animation types. They'll still make the same arguments though, but have zero data or evidence to back it up xD.

I struggle with ani-cancel.

So I tank.

Boom.

Problem solved. My guild loves me on Trials now. XD

Huh?! As a tank you still need to Animation Cancel. It's even more important than a DPS doing it at times. And LA Weaving on a tank is still a thing as well.

I said I struggle. Not that I can't.

If I make a mistake as a tank and lose a bit of DPS there, it is absolutely not going to hurt as much as two or three DD players making the same error, as more than once I'm keeping the one-shot off those DD players. A dead DD is no DD, after all.

NordSwordnBoard · February 2020

should stay

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

Numbers don’t lie; overwhelming majority wants it to stay.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please pass this along upstairs, majority of forums is for animation cancelling.

179y / 96n total 275 polled. An overwhelming majority of forum users did not participate in the poll or are unaware of its existence. Numbers don't lie, lol.

If the facts are unassailable, why do you engage in hyperbole? Leave that for people who think AC bypasses the GCD or don't understand what delayed burst is.

Commandment · February 2020

Called it, now that people finally removed teaming up in BG's , people are going to comp[ain about animation cancelling.
After they remove that, people will complain about set abilities to be removed completely or have 5 min cd's like in wow.

Looks like ESO is headed down that road.

jazsper77 · February 2020

should go

StaticWave wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No I don’t agree with you because you’re saying a bunch of bullcrap, possibly even made that up to push your agenda. There are literally dozens of forum posts complaining about how sick people are of SEEING THE SAME DIZZYING SKILL USED BY EVERY STAMINA CLASS. There’re posts complaining about Dks losing tank identity because certain aspects of the class were nerfed, or as a result of standardization. It’s actually sad that you made that crap up to push your agenda. It’s even sadder if you were actually being serious. That’s why people like you need to be modded. You’re a plague for new players and I wish they do not see your comment

This is some next level hissy fit right here.

You are upset, and want me modded just because we don't agree on it?

I already said what makes a class a class is the animations of said skills. At the end of the day, you hit a skill and a action happens. Damage or whatever happens. How that skill looks reflects on the class style.

Are you really going to argue with me over my perspective and i'm wrong on that? Listen, buddy...that is not very nice. I made it clear on this being just my two cents, and I've said this. I also said by developers own words that AC was a glitch, they they pick to support. I've said nothing wrong.

And you’re being intentionally dense and trolly. I’m just very tired of seeing your same crap after countless times of people showing you evidence against your argument. You havent given a single solid counter argument for this topic other than saying the same bullcrap without anything to back it up, every.single.time...

“It’s a glitch”
*shows clip of ZOS supporting it*

“It’s a glitch”
*explains why it is intended and needed for the game

“gLitChHhH”

You have zero argument and contributed nothing worth of value to this discussion. It’s not just me who are sick of you. It’s literally everyone who argued with you lmfao. You’re like a flat Earther, seriously...

1. It was an UNINTENDED ADDITION- ZOS was unable to FIX IT so they started to base combat around it. Like a lot of issues that are still in the game since beta. It was NOT A PLANNED COMBAT FEATURE.

2. If 2 players fight using identical characters with the only exception is AC doe one have an ADVANTAGE over the other

3. Is a part of the community excluded from content by other players if they don’t AC ?

I don’t have an issue with it either way. But for the pro AC group to keep saying it was an Intentional feature and you don’t have to AC if you don’t want to is wrong on both accounts.

kathandira · February 2020

should go

Which is fair. I'm cool with that level of Animation Cancelling. My main gripe is LA Weaving.

ESO is unique in that everyone has a block, roll, and bash. Since that is what makes this game what it is, and PvE encounters are designed with this in mind, then it is ok.

Combat could be changed in such a way that the gap between those who LA Weave and those who don't, doesn't create such a gap between their DPS performance. If LA Weaving simply meant a 5k DPS difference, I don't think people would complain about being forced to use it.

jadarock · February 2020

idk wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, when you weave it anyway, why not just make this an automatic action then - in this case it could be computed in a single go and would not have much of an impact anymore.

The reasons are very obvious.

First off, the damage of a basic attack varies by how long we held the button down.

Also, the does different things based on how long we hold the button down. it does more damage if held briefly and provides a return on the resource for that weapon if we hold the button down for the full duration.

Lets not forget it is also part of what separates ESO from more simplistic games like WoW and FF14.

I don't believe a game should be separated "from more simplistic games"* by an unintended, clunky mechanic.

It is not clunky at all. It might seem clunky to someone challenged with weaving basic attacks but for most people that is because they really have not worked to get it down.

What separates the top players in this game, and any MMORPG, is they work hard to improve their gameplay. This is no different.

In the end, I am glad our combat is not mind-numbing as it is in WoW and FF14.

It's clunky design.

That is the way I meant that.

Prior to the re-download, I was not having issues with it.

This explains much. You did not understand what AC actually was.

Prior to this recent update, much of what we thought was AC was just the client desyncing from the server. With block, the client told you the action as happening before it actually did. The server controlled the actual actions while your client controlled the animation. If someone ACed a skill with the block it showed damage on the target before it actually happened.

What this update did is it has the server control when the block animation occurs and it is probably coming to a hair later than it actually happens since the server now tells the client when to show the animation.

So yes, it feels awkward since we are used to the old visual queues. In reality, AC was not what most of us thought is was.

I realize this might be a lot to take in so I will provide a video from Gilliam explaining all of this. He shows and explains this on live U24 and on the recent U25 PTS.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511531/how-the-new-block-is-system-going-to-work-explained-by-zos-gilliams-livestream-twitch-video-clip/p1

You will.never convince me this was the best route to take with a SIX year old game that is unless they only care about the clown store and sales to rpers or lazy people not willing to put in the time to learn how the game operates.....

Siohwenoeht · February 2020

should stay

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

But they never said it was a glitch? I gave you a clip of Wrobel, and someone gave you a picture of a zos dev stating it’s unintended, BUT NOT A GLITCH. You’ve constantly put words in people’s mouth and made up nonsense in your argument. At this point you should be reported for intentional trolling.

In the other post, you got developers saying it was not intended, in the early patches. They tried to fix it, with adding some delays to attacks. It failed, and they stop talking about it.

When at last we asked them when it was going to be fixed. They said. Oh it is not an exploit now! Well no matter what they said it was. They admit it was not intended, and that is a glitch. Even if they accept it. The players force them to accept it because they were not good enough to fix it.

That does not change what AC is. A glitch, it was not intended. Wrobel if you knew the guy. You knew he was wishy washy with what he said.

To me something that was not intended is a glitch. You can't say I am wrong because i said to me. Go look up with a glitch is.

Why are you ignoring my question?

Because he's trolling. Always ignores the posts trying to explain things or ask legitimate questions.

Carespanker · February 2020

should stay

jazsper77 wrote: »

3. Is a part of the community excluded from content by other players if they don’t AC ?

They should be. If you cannot adapt to a challenge you shouldn't be allowed to be carried through it. I will kick you if you not being able to pull your weight is why we can't kill the boss, thats just how its going to go if you wont take the time to learn the game.

IndianaJames7 · February 2020

should stay

jazsper77 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No I don’t agree with you because you’re saying a bunch of bullcrap, possibly even made that up to push your agenda. There are literally dozens of forum posts complaining about how sick people are of SEEING THE SAME DIZZYING SKILL USED BY EVERY STAMINA CLASS. There’re posts complaining about Dks losing tank identity because certain aspects of the class were nerfed, or as a result of standardization. It’s actually sad that you made that crap up to push your agenda. It’s even sadder if you were actually being serious. That’s why people like you need to be modded. You’re a plague for new players and I wish they do not see your comment

This is some next level hissy fit right here.

You are upset, and want me modded just because we don't agree on it?

I already said what makes a class a class is the animations of said skills. At the end of the day, you hit a skill and a action happens. Damage or whatever happens. How that skill looks reflects on the class style.

Are you really going to argue with me over my perspective and i'm wrong on that? Listen, buddy...that is not very nice. I made it clear on this being just my two cents, and I've said this. I also said by developers own words that AC was a glitch, they they pick to support. I've said nothing wrong.

And you’re being intentionally dense and trolly. I’m just very tired of seeing your same crap after countless times of people showing you evidence against your argument. You havent given a single solid counter argument for this topic other than saying the same bullcrap without anything to back it up, every.single.time...

“It’s a glitch”
*shows clip of ZOS supporting it*

“It’s a glitch”
*explains why it is intended and needed for the game

“gLitChHhH”

You have zero argument and contributed nothing worth of value to this discussion. It’s not just me who are sick of you. It’s literally everyone who argued with you lmfao. You’re like a flat Earther, seriously...

1. It was an UNINTENDED ADDITION- ZOS was unable to FIX IT so they started to base combat around it. Like a lot of issues that are still in the game since beta. It was NOT A PLANNED COMBAT FEATURE.

2. If 2 players fight using identical characters with the only exception is AC doe one have an ADVANTAGE over the other

3. Is a part of the community excluded from content by other players if they don’t AC ?

I don’t have an issue with it either way. But for the pro AC group to keep saying it was an Intentional feature and you don’t have to AC if you don’t want to is wrong on both accounts.

1. Fire was an unintended discovery by caveman, but we still use it today cause it’s pretty awesome and helpful.

2. Yes, it’s called skill cap.

3. You are not excluded since you can beat all normal content without AC and probably a good amount of the vet content. You just won’t be competitive against the best players in the game. I can’t slap a dummy for 90k, that doesn’t mean I’m excluded from from content like Godslayer. It just means ZOS has created content that is challenging for me, as well as content that is challenging for players more skilled then I am.

lzzy · February 2020

should stay

Players complain about mechanics always changing. Stuff like off-balance, CP, racials, undodgeable skills, set nerfs, etc.

"Animation cancelling", or the priority-based GCD system, has been one of the most consistent combat mechanics we've ever had. I've taken a break from this game many times since launch and it's always worked exactly as I expected it to coming back.

I don't see what's worth upending here when plenty of other things in this game change drastically from one patch to the next.

Agenericname · February 2020

should stay

kathandira wrote: »

Which is fair. I'm cool with that level of Animation Cancelling. My main gripe is LA Weaving.

ESO is unique in that everyone has a block, roll, and bash. Since that is what makes this game what it is, and PvE encounters are designed with this in mind, then it is ok.

Combat could be changed in such a way that the gap between those who LA Weave and those who don't, doesn't create such a gap between their DPS performance. If LA Weaving simply meant a 5k DPS difference, I don't think people would complain about being forced to use it.

They could reduce the impact of light attacks and leave the ceiling approximately where it is now. Add the damage back to abilities and reduce some of the damage of light attacks where the skill is still rewarded but not as critical.

That would be fine with me personally. That's a completely different argument from removing it altogether and subjecting all roles to a much less forgiving environment. It's much different than reworking the animations to leave the mechanics intact but make a better flow as well. Its take it all away and penalize everyone who benefits from it because DDs don't like it.