Animation canceling - forum war

Edziu

should stay

Commancho wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

When

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, when you weave it anyway, why not just make this an automatic action then - in this case it could be computed in a single go and would not have much of an impact anymore.

The reasons are very obvious.

First off, the damage of a basic attack varies by how long we held the button down.

Also, the does different things based on how long we hold the button down. it does more damage if held briefly and provides a return on the resource for that weapon if we hold the button down for the full duration.

Lets not forget it is also part of what separates ESO from more simplistic games like WoW and FF14.

I don't believe a game should be separated "from more simplistic games"* by an unintended, clunky mechanic.

It is not clunky at all. It might seem clunky to someone challenged with weaving basic attacks but for most people that is because they really have not worked to get it down.

What separates the top players in this game, and any MMORPG, is they work hard to improve their gameplay. This is no different.

In the end, I am glad our combat is not mind-numbing as it is in WoW and FF14.

It's clunky design.

That is the way I meant that.

Prior to the re-download, I was not having issues with it.

Occasionally, it didn't fire, because occasionally, I will hit a key for a skill, or a light attack, and it doesn't register.

That is just normal, in the UK, anyway.

Maintaining a rythm has never been an issue for me.

...and yes, the combat here is, or can be, mind numbing.

It can anywhere and this is, certainly, no exception.

Hitting a light attack before a skill doesn't make it any less so.

At least, in WoW, you have (or had - haven't played for years) multiple abilities and have to try to manage cooldowns.

If you play any game and class enough, you can get so used to it you start playing it in your sleep, but still.

You like animation cancelling, for whatever reason? Fine.

Many people don't, that's all.

No need to assume it's just because we're all clumsy idiots.

I personally just find it tiring and annoying to do.

Square. RT. Triangle. RT. Circle. RT. RB. Left. Square. RT. Triangle. RT. Circle. RT. RB. Left. Repeat. That is a lot of hitting right trigger just to put a LA in between my skills. Also makes you character look like they have having a seizure. Which is something those who I've played other MMOs with also have stated as to why they didn't like the combat in this game.

you can always go to wow and have to press every of 15, 20 skills once they are not in cooldown and just watch them all if you like it so much

I will only repeat something what everyone else was saying to anyone else not happy of this game... - if you dont like it, dont play it, go play something else, nobody will be missing you and nobody wants you to impose your way of playing for others

Haha WTF, they can say the same to you.

and btw do I was writing something here I wouldnt play this after these changes? not yet
but persen to which I quoted was writing about people actually not enjoying current combat and enjoying more from other mmo's...so who is keeping them from playign these other mmo's with better combat for them?

if you didnt read enough you coudl see as how many peple enjoy combat in ESO because it is unique to every other mmo and thats reason why they like ESO...and so why then make ESO same game as every other mmo?


or I will try to ask in different way

why have you come to ESO from other game? if you didnt like something in this other mmo so you went to ESO then please dont change ESO to be way this your other MMO from which you escaped because you will make ESO same in situation of this mmo and you will create here chaos and run away from it becasue you wanted to have ESO as other mmo but and this failed while changing to this

DukeDiewalker

should stay

kathandira wrote: »

I love the "Leave this game if you don't like it" responses.

Currently the poll is near 60% who like it, 40% don't. Now we know those on the forums are not real representation of the number of players who play the game. But if it were, these people would be asking for a 40% reduction in the player base.

Consider this when taking such an absolute approach.

You are almost correct. A big majority of the experienced / long term players either left the game already or gave up on the forums and the devs. If the representation in this poll would be correct, it would be more like 90% for and 10% against animation cancelling.

Edziu

should stay

kathandira wrote: »

I love the "Leave this game if you don't like it" responses.

Currently the poll is near 60% who like it, 40% don't. Now we know those on the forums are not real representation of the number of players who play the game. But if it were, these people would be asking for a 40% reduction in the player base.

Consider this when taking such an absolute approach.

and yet this is jsut small % scrap of current playerbase, I bet there is more people able to do hardcore vet endgame content in this game than currently who voted here

Moonsorrow

should stay

I`ve said enough on this subject and can only say that if animation canceling would be leaving this game - so would i.

So it better stay for so many reasons. I would not play a turn-based combat MMO game in 2020.

Nord_Raseri

should stay

As someone with a lot of nerve damage in my hands/fingers, I can see some people's point on AC being a pain to use and not wanting to be forced to use it to be viable, yet I cannot and will not ever call for any type of nerf to anyone. Removing AC would be a hefty nerf to end game and also pvp.

Coppes

idk wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, when you weave it anyway, why not just make this an automatic action then - in this case it could be computed in a single go and would not have much of an impact anymore.

The reasons are very obvious.

First off, the damage of a basic attack varies by how long we held the button down.

Also, the does different things based on how long we hold the button down. it does more damage if held briefly and provides a return on the resource for that weapon if we hold the button down for the full duration.

Lets not forget it is also part of what separates ESO from more simplistic games like WoW and FF14.

Being able to click-click-click mouse button without thinking isn’t more/less simplistic than other games.

Being able to weave basic attacks into the execution of skills is more complex than is capable in WoW or FF14 with their simplistic combat designs. it is a big part of what sets ESO apart from such antiquate games.

Yes, weave by click-click-click. I’d say having more skills to work with especially in WoW/SWTOR is more or less skilled than ESO.

Carespanker

should stay

I feel like there's a simple solution to this; Give the filthy casuals a setting that makes it so they cant animation cancel and lock anyone with this feature toggled to normal dungeons where people who cant pull any significant dps belong .

kathandira

should go

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

As someone with a lot of nerve damage in my hands/fingers, I can see some people's point on AC being a pain to use and not wanting to be forced to use it to be viable, yet I cannot and will not ever call for any type of nerf to anyone. Removing AC would be a hefty nerf to end game and also pvp.

For you, and many other players who suffer similarly, i'd prefer if LA Weaving was reverted back to when it was less effective.

I don't have problems with my hands, and can LA perfectly fine. On the Iron Atronoch, I can get up to 60k DPS, which is perfectly fine to do any content in the game. But sitting at that target dummy for 5 minutes or however long spamming the crap out of skills with LA in between each of them is tiring and boring.

I guess people can call that action packed combat, but to me, i'd rather play a beautiful with a good groove, rather than shredding as fast as possible just because it feels faster paced.

Commancho

Edziu wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

When

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, when you weave it anyway, why not just make this an automatic action then - in this case it could be computed in a single go and would not have much of an impact anymore.

The reasons are very obvious.

First off, the damage of a basic attack varies by how long we held the button down.

Also, the does different things based on how long we hold the button down. it does more damage if held briefly and provides a return on the resource for that weapon if we hold the button down for the full duration.

Lets not forget it is also part of what separates ESO from more simplistic games like WoW and FF14.

I don't believe a game should be separated "from more simplistic games"* by an unintended, clunky mechanic.

It is not clunky at all. It might seem clunky to someone challenged with weaving basic attacks but for most people that is because they really have not worked to get it down.

What separates the top players in this game, and any MMORPG, is they work hard to improve their gameplay. This is no different.

In the end, I am glad our combat is not mind-numbing as it is in WoW and FF14.

It's clunky design.

That is the way I meant that.

Prior to the re-download, I was not having issues with it.

Occasionally, it didn't fire, because occasionally, I will hit a key for a skill, or a light attack, and it doesn't register.

That is just normal, in the UK, anyway.

Maintaining a rythm has never been an issue for me.

...and yes, the combat here is, or can be, mind numbing.

It can anywhere and this is, certainly, no exception.

Hitting a light attack before a skill doesn't make it any less so.

At least, in WoW, you have (or had - haven't played for years) multiple abilities and have to try to manage cooldowns.

If you play any game and class enough, you can get so used to it you start playing it in your sleep, but still.

You like animation cancelling, for whatever reason? Fine.

Many people don't, that's all.

No need to assume it's just because we're all clumsy idiots.

I personally just find it tiring and annoying to do.

Square. RT. Triangle. RT. Circle. RT. RB. Left. Square. RT. Triangle. RT. Circle. RT. RB. Left. Repeat. That is a lot of hitting right trigger just to put a LA in between my skills. Also makes you character look like they have having a seizure. Which is something those who I've played other MMOs with also have stated as to why they didn't like the combat in this game.

you can always go to wow and have to press every of 15, 20 skills once they are not in cooldown and just watch them all if you like it so much

I will only repeat something what everyone else was saying to anyone else not happy of this game... - if you dont like it, dont play it, go play something else, nobody will be missing you and nobody wants you to impose your way of playing for others

Haha WTF, they can say the same to you.

and yet this game is how it is and They want it changed, not I
why fixing something thats not "broken" or surely it works?

we had many examples in early times of this game in balance...some people was crying for something to nerf....some to dont...and what ZOS was trying to do? they so often was touching things about nobody asked for runing them into uselesness

wanna get it repeat once ZOS stopped doing in this way?

I don't care honestly, I will adapt to any changes as long I'm not bored.

StaticWave

should stay

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

As someone with a lot of nerve damage in my hands/fingers, I can see some people's point on AC being a pain to use and not wanting to be forced to use it to be viable, yet I cannot and will not ever call for any type of nerf to anyone. Removing AC would be a hefty nerf to end game and also pvp.

This is the most sensible post so far. Thank you for understanding why it would be a really bad change for endgame and pvp. I can see why people dislike it due to others forcing them to use AC against their preference. I do think ZOS should not focus the direction of their skills and game entirely around light attack weaving, or making content that requires AC to complete. I think everyone should be able to clear hard content without the need for AC. AC is just a tool to help trim off a few minutes, but should not be a major requirement to complete any content whatsoever. It also should not be removed entirely so people who want to clear content faster can utilize it for that purpose.

Starlock

kathandira wrote: »

I love the "Leave this game if you don't like it" responses.

Currently the poll is near 60% who like it, 40% don't. Now we know those on the forums are not real representation of the number of players who play the game. But if it were, these people would be asking for a 40% reduction in the player base.

Consider this when taking such an absolute approach.

It may be higher than that. I didn't vote in the poll because the way it was articulated didn't really match how I feel about it. I don't like animation cancelling as it is currently implemented in the game, but I don't want it removed. I want it fixed.

I suppose if forced to take sides, though, I would definitely vote on the "remove it" side mainly because this is an online game. If you get a lot of input lag or a shaky internet connection, you basically can't do it... or if you can it doesn't matter because there's such a huge mismatch between what you see on your screen and what is being calculated on the server. I have this happen routinely and I don't exactly have crap internet. I'll block things when I shouldn't have blocked them, not block things when I should have blocked things, and all other assorted shenanigans. Hell, just yesterday when I was helping peeps fight the griffin bosses the white one stood as if they were alive for almost five seconds in total before finally realizing it was dead. As funny and amusing as these sorts of performance/connection issues can be, poorly-implemented animation cancelling adds a whole 'nother layer of wonk.

rager82b14_ESO

should go

I mean i love how the pro AC players are saying they we got no reason why we want it removed.


Ok here is you reasons. We don't enjoy it. I find it makes the combat easier and cheapens it. It takes away from the elder scrolls feel of the game for me. I also think the game combat is held back by it, and since the game is balance around this glitch. That it hinders future content.


It needs to go.

Edziu

should stay

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

I mean i love how the pro AC players are saying they we got no reason why we want it removed.


Ok here is you reasons. We don't enjoy it. I find it makes the combat easier and cheapens it. It takes away from the elder scrolls feel of the game for me. I also think the game combat is held back by it, and since the game is balance around this glitch. That it hinders future content.


It needs to go.

and se we endjoy this combat and it makes combat much enjoyable for us giving also reward for skilled play

and not only i t takes elder scrolls feel of the game...if you was such TES fan you would have never played for to long this game because of in how many aspects in just questes, balance lore is broken

true fans of TES have left ESO since 1st months after release and they still dont mind to get back here for lore
and after all Idk what you do in this game then unless you are not playing it and jsut visiting forums

Coppes

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

I love the "Leave this game if you don't like it" responses.

Currently the poll is near 60% who like it, 40% don't. Now we know those on the forums are not real representation of the number of players who play the game. But if it were, these people would be asking for a 40% reduction in the player base.

Consider this when taking such an absolute approach.

You are almost correct. A big majority of the experienced / long term players either left the game already or gave up on the forums and the devs. If the representation in this poll would be correct, it would be more like 90% for and 10% against animation cancelling.

Considering how popular the topic is it’s definitely higher than 10% against AC.

But, since we have no accurate source, it’s just speculation.

rager82b14_ESO

should go

Edziu wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

I mean i love how the pro AC players are saying they we got no reason why we want it removed.


Ok here is you reasons. We don't enjoy it. I find it makes the combat easier and cheapens it. It takes away from the elder scrolls feel of the game for me. I also think the game combat is held back by it, and since the game is balance around this glitch. That it hinders future content.


It needs to go.

and se we endjoy this combat and it makes combat much enjoyable for us giving also reward for skilled play

and not only i t takes elder scrolls feel of the game...if you was such TES fan you would have never played for to long this game because of in how many aspects in just questes, balance lore is broken

true fans of TES have left ESO since 1st months after release and they still dont mind to get back here for lore
and after all Idk what you do in this game then unless you are not playing it and jsut visiting forums

That is fine if you feel that way.

We got blocking change.
We got Ultimates change.

We are slowly changing things. So we have hope.

idk

should stay

Carespanker wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Carespanker wrote: »

My first and only problem with AC has always been that it's not taught. 95% of the people who play this game can't play the game to the fullest because they don't know how to AC+weave. Do you understand how embarrassing it is to have to teach 810s how to AC because they "Cant pull over 25k with this Alcast build." ? Majority of the pledges can't be pugged because even though my necro tank can increase overall group dps by 55% (with my own theory craft shenanigans) it doesn't matter because the average group DPS is so low due to people of all cp not knowing how to AC+weave (around 40k group dps with my buffs). Why? Because 95% of this game doesn't know how to play this game and it sickens me...

If its in the game it should have a tutorial at the start, not a blink and you'll miss it loading screen tip!

This is an odd reason to argue against pretty much anything. The game does not teach much more than to block or heavy attack. Player have to learn on their own how to use each skill.

Please tell me where in the game has Zos shown us how each skill can be sued most effectively? In every MMORPG I have played it is players that learn how to play the game best and teach other players what they learned. Theorcrafters find the best rotations, best builds and in the end know more about how to play the game than the devs.

Heck, the fact they cannot pull more than 25k without weaving basic attacks shows they are still learning the basics.

Edit: BTW, please back up what you are claiming as a fact. I do not think you have any information to back up that 95% of players can or cannot do AC and are just pulling that number out of thin air in an attempt to make a point based on false information. Further, the idea of it even ignores that some people just do not care about this at all.

As much as I love making up statistics based on personal experience, im willing to bet real money that 99% of the game thats made it past level 10 can tell you how to block and heavy attack. Ya know why? because its the first thing they show you how to do in the tutorial of the game which cannot be skipped unless you have done it before. Unlike animation canceling, blocking and heavy attacking are basic controls while AC is more of a skill/muscle memory and just like any other muscle memories the longer you do it the easier it is to do. Thus if it was in the unskippable tutorial people would have an easier time in the game at 810... instead of pulling 25k dps...

Based on my personal experience over half the players weave LAs like a pro. I know my personal experience does not reflect the game. As such I do not tough what is clearly false and manufactured statistics as though they are fact.

As far as not being able to exceed 25k dps, their problem is not the lack of AC but more along the lines of basic skills. I have also known players were are find with doing 25k dps. That is probably a big part of the game. They just enjoy playing it and have no interest in putting in the time to do the high dps numbers.

Gilvoth

should go

was it intended "no" but they left it in and people found a way to abuse it and its a glitched cheat on skills.
light attack canceling is not bad but when your able to manipulate and cancel animations to the point that it breaks the game then it is cheating.
no one shopuld have to be game glitch dependant in order to be considered good.

Noxavian

should go

scubasteve28 wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

what do u think about animation canceling, should it stay or should it go?

Animation cancelling is bad and easily the most stupid idea for a "mechanic"

If it was an intended mechanic, then it wouldn't be called animation cancelling would it?

I lost brain cells reading this.

Good.

notvenousdrake

@everyone saying it’s should go, imagine having the wrong opinion.
(Edit so mod no get triggered because I make joke about ww2)

idk

should stay

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, when you weave it anyway, why not just make this an automatic action then - in this case it could be computed in a single go and would not have much of an impact anymore.

The reasons are very obvious.

First off, the damage of a basic attack varies by how long we held the button down.

Also, the does different things based on how long we hold the button down. it does more damage if held briefly and provides a return on the resource for that weapon if we hold the button down for the full duration.

Lets not forget it is also part of what separates ESO from more simplistic games like WoW and FF14.

I don't believe a game should be separated "from more simplistic games"* by an unintended, clunky mechanic.

It is not clunky at all. It might seem clunky to someone challenged with weaving basic attacks but for most people that is because they really have not worked to get it down.

What separates the top players in this game, and any MMORPG, is they work hard to improve their gameplay. This is no different.

In the end, I am glad our combat is not mind-numbing as it is in WoW and FF14.

It's clunky design.

That is the way I meant that.

Prior to the re-download, I was not having issues with it.

This explains much. You did not understand what AC actually was.

Prior to this recent update, much of what we thought was AC was just the client desyncing from the server. With block, the client told you the action as happening before it actually did. The server controlled the actual actions while your client controlled the animation. If someone ACed a skill with the block it showed damage on the target before it actually happened.

What this update did is it has the server control when the block animation occurs and it is probably coming to a hair later than it actually happens since the server now tells the client when to show the animation.

So yes, it feels awkward since we are used to the old visual queues. In reality, AC was not what most of us thought is was.

I realize this might be a lot to take in so I will provide a video from Gilliam explaining all of this. He shows and explains this on live U24 and on the recent U25 PTS.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511531/how-the-new-block-is-system-going-to-work-explained-by-zos-gilliams-livestream-twitch-video-clip/p1

StaticWave

should stay

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

I mean i love how the pro AC players are saying they we got no reason why we want it removed.


Ok here is you reasons. We don't enjoy it. I find it makes the combat easier and cheapens it. It takes away from the elder scrolls feel of the game for me. I also think the game combat is held back by it, and since the game is balance around this glitch. That it hinders future content.


It needs to go.

1/ Oh so you don't enjoy it, and you want it removed. We were expecting an argument that isn't based off of personal preference, but oh well well what do we have here xD. I'm sorry but that argument is not strong my dude... One simple solution for you is to find other games like Skyrim so you can fully iMmErSe yourself. This is an MMO though, so don't try to force that ideology on us. We can just as easily say AC makes combat more fluid, but that would also be an argument from personal preference. That is why we use the argument of ZOS fully supporting this feature. It's available to everyone, but if you refuse to use it then that's OK. Nobody forces you to. However you should not attempt to make them remove this feature simply because "you don't enjoy it". We enjoy AC, and we don't agree with you.

2/ Didn't we literally just receive the Harrowstorm patch like 4 days ago? How is it hindering content when DLCs are being released every 3 months, and a big chapter is released every year for over 5 years now?

Gilvoth

should go

last night a sorc hit me with 3 skills instantly.
that is not something the developers imagined when they designed skills.

Coppes

Why do people think that if you don’t like AC, you’re automatically a roleplayer.

idk

should stay

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You forgot the point the new player lacks any clue about the basics of the game. We all learned a lot since our first days in the game.

Heck, I have seen player on a stamina melee character that was confident they did not have an interrupt. If newer players do not even know the most basic tools available to them how can Tiger suggest a new player not knowing the more advanced aspects of combat is even a worthy point to make?

Heck, even with simplistic combat systems like WoW and FF14 many players who have spent years in the game lack the ability do play as well as the top players. So this the point Tiger has tried to make does not measure up.

What you say is true, but even if in a hypothetical Scenario where someone who only does PvE and is perfect in weaving and Animation cancelling but doesnt know the first Thing About PvP and doesnt look at a guide or something goes into PvP in his siro, sorrow, zaan Setup in full divines he will die all the same to a gank as a new Player would. Knowledge About AC or weaving or lack thereof doesnt make a difference in surviving a gank or not. It simply is more likely that someone who knows About AC or weaving knows how to build in PvP.

All true. The more experienced someone is and the more knowledge of the games combat someone has sought and learned themselves the stronger player they will be. Especially if they sought more knowledge themselves through testing.

This is the same in PvE and PvP and pretty much any MMORPG and is not really about AC or weaving.

dsalter

should go

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Even game itself encourages you to cancel animations of light attacks with a spell, therefore animation cancelling is an officialy approved feature.

one loading screen WOW such a massive teaching! an RNG message that teaches you how to do whats currently considered a core feature!

if they cant teach it via tutorials nor list it in the help guide. they should remove it so theres no more argument.
if they wont fully officially support it and teach it then by that demonstration its not something they want to keep.
and seeing how lazy zenimax can be, im voting it'll go rather than stay because thats the zenimax way

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

should go

we dont need animation canceling...must be remove if we are to achieve a true TES game...also change the name from TESO to Heavy Attack Online...HAO...neat

Sanctum74

should stay

Gilvoth wrote: »

last night a sorc hit me with 3 skills instantly.
that is not something the developers imagined when they designed skills.

That has nothing to do with animation canceling, they have delayed burst. Please learn game mechanics before asking for nerfs.

Sanguinor2

should stay

Gilvoth wrote: »

last night a sorc hit me with 3 skills instantly.
that is not something the developers imagined when they designed skills.

They did. Otherwise they wouldnt have made curse and the sorc execute work the way they do. Also Nothing to do with Animation cancelling, but I guess you have no idea how sorc abilities work so you just assume it must be a bug or a cheat.

kathandira

should go

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Why do people think that if you don’t like AC, you’re automatically a roleplayer.

Beats me. I can LA Weave perfectly fine, and Ani cancel without it being an issue. I simply don't like LA weaving because it doesn't feel fluid, and looks bad on screen. It is tiring, and boring as well.

idk

should stay

Gilvoth wrote: »

last night a sorc hit me with 3 skills instantly.
that is not something the developers imagined when they designed skills.

This is server lag and nothing more.

Edit: ofc, you could have received the explosion from Curse and the explosion from Mage's Wrath from your health dropping below 20% while also getting hit by another skill. The first two were delivered beforehand and merely did their damage later as designed and intended.