A vast majority of players are asking to remove cast times

Mettaricana · January 2020

If they gonna force the animations then they need to tone down enemies reaction speeds and stats a bit so they we aren't at total disadvantage or slow enemies down and buff all our dmg by the amount we lose canceling

BohnT2 · January 2020

Are the people saying light attack weaving isn't intended aware that Zos actively promotes it when you level up.

In a combat advice around lvl 40 they tell you that it is intended and that it's helpful.

Mettaricana · January 2020

BohnT2 wrote: »

Are the people saying light attack weaving isn't intended aware that Zos actively promotes it when you level up.

In a combat advice around lvl 40 they tell you that it is intended and that it's helpful.

Zos has been contradicting themselves since the pay2play days of eso... this honestly isn't surprising anymore..

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Rianai wrote: »

@Anotherone773

Google or Steam aren't neccessarily better measurements of "public opinion" than forums. You are looking at a limited sample either way.

Except that is not what i said.

1) When you look at these forums and then other sources collectively, these forums seem very out of whack.
2) Data is weighted on where it comes from, the conditions in which it is obtained, and if its from unique users (sometimes on a time basis) or if its the same users over and over.

There are mountains of data that go into ZOS determining the direction of the game, that is why it doesnt seem like ZOS listens to forum users much. Other sources give a different impression than this forum.

And those statistics certainly don't tell anything about what people think about cast times on ultimates.

Any time there is a change their is a fuss made about it, especially here on the forums. The feedback they are getting in what? 2 days? is from players who dont like the changes made to the combat system. That opinion is actually irrelevant at this point. What they really care about is how the system is working. The few people in the short time on PTS isnt near enough to get an accurate assessment of the general population's feelings. Instead what they will focus on is how it is performing, bugs in the system, and obvious problems. They will make adjustments, if necessary, later down the road as they need too.

Many reviews and evaluations on platforms like google, steam or amazon are created by people that don't have much knowledge about what they are rating, if any at all -

That doesnt matter much. You know what matter's, and they will never admit this, it is the people that spend money on this game. Because the first people you want to make happy are those that invest the most in your product. The person that bought the base game on sale for $9.99 and has not put any more investment in it since is not nearly as relevant as the person who has had a sub for 4 years and buys $100 in crowns every time they go on sale. What matters is the people who buy the product. It doesnt matter if you think they are qualified to give an opinion on the state of the game.

Ofc forums are not exclusively filled with reasonable, factual and valueable feedback - but it is usually a place where we can find people that are a bit more involved in whatever the forum is about.

Involved does not transfer to useful feedback. Whining about the game constantly is not feedback. Coming here and demanding ZOS fix their game, is not feedback.

Gina had a thread about the undaunted event. And posted what feedback she was looking for. Many forum regulars ignored it and many of the people who did post in it gave very little to no useful feedback. Honestly you get far better feedback on reviews than you do on this forum. Its better thought out and better constructed.

So the only thing we do know is that the vast majority of players that care enough to voice their opinion on this forum do not like cast times. And we do have plenty of evidence for this. Everything else is wild speculation.

The few people who tested it on PTS didnt like it. No one seen that coming. PTS is not to test opinions, its to test functionality. So the opinions on this forum about the changes and if someone likes them is irrelevant. 99% of the player base will never come to these forums. Of the 1% that do, id guess less than 25% actually ever go on PTS.

If the majority of total players isn't affected by something or simply doesn't care - their opinion on the subject is irrelevant,

everyone that does combat will be affected. And im pretty sure this game is almost impossible to play without doing some combat. So that makes this entire statement...irrelevant.

And if an opinion is based on lack of knowledge, then it shouldn't be basis for decision making either.

Wow. "I deem you not worthy to have an opinion on the game that you have bought and continue to invest in because your knowledge of mechanics and meta game is insufficent... so be silent intellectual peasant!" You are a big fan of Geniocracy and Elitism arent you?

ElvenVeil · January 2020

one could also ask for a bit more lag in cyrodiil to give enough time for counter play. In all the time I have played I have never heard anyone being happy for cast times, but zos has just introduced a ton of bad decisions, which means the game today just doesn't work well - performance is terrible and all the skill changes, such as cast times and useless skill lines, turn the game into a boring mess.

and if one doesn't believe that is the general opinion just look at the amount of players left in the pvp campaigns. in the past you would have 3 constantly pop locked cp campaigns, and many people in queue. back then people still enjoyed the game. A bit over a year ago you would have 1 pop locked campaign. Now (ofc not with event taking place right now) , you have a hard time reaching even high pop in a campaign.

sweatapodimas · January 2020

Yeah this was a terrible idea. Play in so clunky both in PVE and PVP.

susmitds · January 2020

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Well if someone is running around Cyrodiil with 350 ping you’d never notice cast times. But let’s say you have a strong connection while playing a medium armor high precision build that requires a proper flawless rotation to execute you’d see how cast times effect the gameplay.

I’ve yet to see an in game example of how this change helps new players.

@Fur_like_snow False. I play at 350 ping overseas and cast times are literally unplayable for me.

hobicabobjob · January 2020

Just chiming in as another voice in the crowd. Cast times feel bad.

yodased · January 2020

Rikumaru wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue

animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.

No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.

No other mmorpg has animation cancelling? No other mmorpg has something where you are attacking something and the block cancels the animation with the damage going through? BDO? Your pretty funny, the first video I searched with "bdo animation cancel" instantly showcases how to block cancel a skill. It's a core component of that game. Maybe next time, stick to telling the truth.

Animation cancelling is a huge part of making combat in this game smooth. Having cast times on skills not only removes skill expression, but also severely hinders the ability for players with high ping to land their skills.

And BDO is supposedly the "fighting game" of MMOs.

Everyone that is thinking that I am somehow defending or advocating for something is simply mad at logic. I am asking the question only, why have animations if they don't matter?

I get it, you like the way the game plays right now, but remove your personal attachment to a system and try to be objective. I'm not personally attacking anyone here, so calm down. You are so attached to something you feel I am some how trying to take away like I have any say in the matter.

The question remains though and one that the developers are answering, why have animations in their entirety if they are going to be cancelled mid-animation anyway?

There isn't a logical answer to that question other than its not working as intended.

I get it, you feel the game should be a certain way, but saying that I'm lying and that I am ignorant is petty and not helping anyone.

Also, light weaving is not ani-cancelling. Sure you can cancel an animation with a light attack currently, but that is not the same thing.

So angry you all are, just relax a bit

sweatapodimas · January 2020

This was a used, disease-ridden re-used band-aide to fix something not broken. Executing a hard to setup combo was actually rewarding, especially when you work out a unique build that can kill even the super tanks of this meta. They essentially made pvp 1-D and clunky...templar/Dk clunkfest...

This new patch needs meta-tank-trash-no-skill-busting-burst damage, and removing cast times are the cure.

Rianai · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

1) When you look at these forums and then other sources collectively, these forums seem very out of whack.
[...]
There are mountains of data that go into ZOS determining the direction of the game, that is why it doesnt seem like ZOS listens to forum users much. Other sources give a different impression than this forum.

Do they tho? Negative feedback (or whining as you like to label it) does not mean the players don't like they game. An active forum is probably a better sign for an overall good game than something like 91% likes on google. Because it means there are many players that care about this game, and they wouldn't care about a game they don't like.
And while positive feedback might be flattering, negative feedback tends to be more valueable, because it can show potential for improvement. If everything is perfectly fine, then there is no reason to change anything.

In addition to this, the topics adressed seem to differ a lot between the forums and more general platforms, so it is not surprising or contradictory at all to see different types of feedback.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Any time there is a change their is a fuss made about it, especially here on the forums. The feedback they are getting in what? 2 days? is from players who dont like the changes made to the combat system. That opinion is actually irrelevant at this point. What they really care about is how the system is working. The few people in the short time on PTS isnt near enough to get an accurate assessment of the general population's feelings. Instead what they will focus on is how it is performing, bugs in the system, and obvious problems. They will make adjustments, if necessary, later down the road as they need too.

Uh, you do know that those cast times have been implemented months ago? And that there has been - overwhelming and well reasoned - negative feedback about performance, bugs and obvious problems? And it will continue until improvements happen or everyone who don't like the cast times quit the game. If this isn't relevant feedback regarding this specific issue, what else is? Someone who just installed the game a few days ago telling on steam how beautiful the landscape looks?

Anotherone773 wrote: »

That doesnt matter much. You know what matter's, and they will never admit this, it is the people that spend money on this game. [...]

Oh you are absolutely right. And because of this it might not be the smartest move to *** off veterans by changing stuff they enjoyed about the game for years in an attempt to cater to players, whose opinion on the matter seems to be largely unknown.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Involved does not transfer to useful feedback. Whining about the game constantly is not feedback. Coming here and demanding ZOS fix their game, is not feedback.

Gina had a thread about the undaunted event. And posted what feedback she was looking for. Many forum regulars ignored it and many of the people who did post in it gave very little to no useful feedback. Honestly you get far better feedback on reviews than you do on this forum. Its better thought out and better constructed.

Oh yea, i'm sure there were a lot of reviews providing optimal feedback about the group finder during the event. Care to show me some examples? Just so i know what you are actually talking about.

And negative feedback is feedback, whether you like it or not. Lack of constructive criticism might be because players feel ignored, maybe even deceived by the devs, which isn't too surprising, considering all those empty claims and inactivity (or incompetence) from the past. And yet reasonable feedback is still there and it doesn't become invalid because of less thought out postings.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The few people who tested it on PTS didnt like it. No one seen that coming. PTS is not to test opinions, its to test functionality. So the opinions on this forum about the changes and if someone likes them is irrelevant. 99% of the player base will never come to these forums. Of the 1% that do, id guess less than 25% actually ever go on PTS.

See above. You have apparently no idea what you are talking about here.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

everyone that does combat will be affected. And im pretty sure this game is almost impossible to play without doing some combat. So that makes this entire statement...irrelevant.

Players who don't use the respective ultimates aren't affected. Players who don't use those ultimates in a somewhat competitive enviroment, aren't affected in a significant way, to the point where they might not even notice a difference. Players who started playing after the changes, also have no way of telling whether it was an improvement or not.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Wow. "I deem you not worthy to have an opinion on the game that you have bought and continue to invest in because your knowledge of mechanics and meta game is insufficent[...]

I did not say players aren't worthy of having an opinion. I said opinions that are based on factual incorrect claims shouldn't be basis for decisions/changes. Because it simply won't work. If someone doesn't like X and erroneously thinks Y is the cause, do you think, removing Y - which is not going to change X- will make said player happy?

Rianai · January 2020

yodased wrote: »

The question remains though and one that the developers are answering, why have animations in their entirety if they are going to be cancelled mid-animation anyway?

There isn't a logical answer to that question other than its not working as intended.

I get it, you feel the game should be a certain way, but saying that I'm lying and that I am ignorant is petty and not helping anyone.

Also, light weaving is not ani-cancelling. Sure you can cancel an animation with a light attack currently, but that is not the same thing.

Why design high resolution textures, then add an option to use ugly blurred low res textures? Why design beautiful landscapes when players rush past them anyway?

Visual fluff is there, because players enjoy looking at it and it offers good advertisement for a game. Obviously. But not all care about visuals equally (or have equally good hardware). Some players value functionality and enjoyable gameplay over nice visuals. And for those players we have things like animation canceling (or graphic options). If you like looking at full animations, just do it. But there is no need to force your personal preference on others.

And you are wrong about weaving. Light attacks don't cancel skills. But skills do cancel light attack animations and utilizing this is exactly what is called weaving. If this wasn't possible it would be better to just spam skills back to back and not use light attacks at all. But why even have light attacks then? All the efforts that went into implementing light attacks - wasted ... You really want that?

SnikerPKK · January 2020

People who are arguing for Cast Times obviously dont know how to PvP, send any of em towards any decent player and they would get trashed.

This meta is terrible and cast times are a ROOT problem of it. The tank meta has gotten so bad that even seniors with a Parkinsons disease are able to start rolling a minute after my skill goes out and somehow still dodge it(?????), or better yet just tank it up and not care cause the abilities who received the cast time(Mainly Incap) ARENT EVEN STRONG ENOUGH TO HAVE IT ANYMORE.

I have a cast timed ultimate which crits for about 6-8k on a Meta brawler build when I build full out glass cannon and have just enough sustain to survive. My target has usually 30k to 35k HP. In a world where vigor can crit up to 7k do you see what my issue is? HOW DO YOU EXPECT PLAYERS TO KILL THOSE THINGS ESPECIALLY WITH CAST TIMES.

SnikerPKK · January 2020

But as @Joy_Division said, the devs are completely out of touch and instead of tackling the inflated health and make cast timed ults actually have a reason to have cast time they instead nerf the only good stun in the game aka. OFFBALANCE in the next PTS. I bet that took them a long time to think about.

Artorias24 · January 2020

I really like how the cast times whiteknights saying "l2p" and "just adapt" while admitting in the next sentence that they get one shotted in pvp.

killingspreeb16_ESO · January 2020

yodased wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

.

yodased wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

There is no logical reason that you should be able to still have the effect and damage of the skill without completing the animation.

There is as much reason as in block casting. You shouldn't be able to cast heals and shields while blocking, how about that?

Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.

If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.

I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.

Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?

But you see part of the animation even if you cancel it and your logic works in game designed to be that way not eso.

Imagine playing the way you describe.

Light attack>istant spammable skill>weapon swap like we do in game but with your logic only weapon swap would go off because the light attack would have been canceled by the spammable that is also going to be canceled by the weapon swap.

I think everyone that actually play the game instead of the forum know that a gameplay like this is going to kill this game for good.

Not true, my logic would mean that you would simply add whatever milliseconds to the combo. light attack animation to instant skill to weapon swap right now its maybe 100ms because you are clipping the end of the animations, with what i'm speaking of it simply adds 300ms to that combo so everything still happens the way you expect it to, you just finish out the animation before the next animation happens.

If you cancel the animation before it finishes sure, but thats the entire point of what I'm saying.

Why have animations that have a set time to them if they don't matter?

I understand that you enjoy the way the combat is right now and you feel like my logic would be taking something away, but try to objectively look at it from a development standpoint.

Why do animations have an arc if they don't matter? Why not just clip the animation to the least common denominator and save all that development time?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to combo skills together, simply that you should have to wait until the animation is complete to be able to have an attack done.

I guess the simplest way of stating it is the same way that they changed vampire drain -> the animation completes and the skill effect happens. If you cancel the skill before the animation is complete, you don't get the benefit of the skill.

This will 100% slow the combat down by milliseconds for each skill, that is a fact that I am not disputing, but my point is that it should be that way from the design of the game.

Cancelling animations cancels the skills effect.

In a game where the combat you describe is supported is fine,another mmo i play is Word of Warcraft there is no animation cancel there because the game was designed that way but even in WoW there are skill outside of the GCD that you can use during another skill animation.

Your logic does not apply well in ESO and Weaving is animation canceling aswell you are actually canceling the Light attack animation with the skill and at that point who is going to use a LA?
Same with casting for example shuffle and press bar swap,only bar swap would go off i don't think is hard to imagine how clunky and terrible is going to be the gameplay of eso with this system.

Also i may be wrong but you don't seem to PvP a lot by the way you describe how animation cancel should be,try to PvP without weaving waiting for every skill to show off properly before roll/block/bar swap etc.

Also not only PvP i think even PvE would be affected a lot by a combat system that shut down every action you do until they are "properly fired"

JumpmanLane · January 2020

What I’d suggest the devs do is actually WATCH the lil intro video ZOS PAID @Sypher to do for them and see EXACTLY the result of their more recent changes.

He didn’t realize that canceling certain skills canceled the damage. He didn’t realize certain nerfs or the outright changes to certain of his bread and butter skills had been made. Further, it only dawned on him that he’d plopped down into tank meta, and was left to ponder WHY everyone was so tanky.

@Sypher can BRAWL tho. His skill carried his broken build. The same can’t be said for very many who play the game.

Cast times were a mistake. Many of the other changes to combat are or were too. I wonder what it would actually take for the devs to admit to such mistakes and correct (revert) them. I wonder how wedded to their ideas the devs might be. I wonder what pitfalls their looming “fiddling” with CP might pose. I wonder how interested people will actually be in continuing to play this game.

To again drag @Sypher into this. I wonder if he would play this game were he not paid to do so...

ThePhantomThorn · January 2020

if people are still saying 'no evidence that people hate cast times'
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6560490#Comment_6560490
80% of voters dislike.

Joy_Division · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

It is easy to prove that these forums are not a good measure of public opinion. All you have to do is read them. They are full of bitter non relenting complaining about the game. It use to have some constructive feedback thrown in, but now it is 90% complaining just to be complaining.

You can find this on any given day in any forum subcategory. If you read these forums daily, like i do, you would think this is the most hated, broken, buggy game to ever exist. You wouldnt understand how it hasnt been shut down yet. But if you go Elsweyr, that perception drastically changes.

* 91% of google users like this game.
* 79% of Steam users( all time, over 49k) have a positive view of this game.
* 87% of Steam reviews in the last 30 days (2.8k) have a positive review of the game.
* 4 star plus on amazon.
* 4 out of 5 stars or better from most sites like IGN, MMORPG, PCGameWorld, etc.
* Steam charts. Our best independent idea of users playing the game. Year over year average users growth for 2018-2019:
-Jan. +17%
-Feb. +33%
-Mar. +27%
-Apr. +29%
-May +40%
-Jun +12%
-Jul +7%
-Aug -9%
-Sep -4%
-Oct. -16%
-Nov. +5%
-Dec +4%

As you can see ESO started really strong in the first 2 quarters. As Rich said, " They are killing it". Then it flops and cools down after Elsweyr. That gives the impression that Elsweyr is a flop, but that is unlikely. That is when they started having major problems with performance though. So that put a big damper on people wanting to play.

Gina will gather feedback from various sources and after all feedback is collected, they will determine that the biggest issues with the game causing the drop will likely be performance. Which is why it has become a primary focus, rather than a " we will get to it"

What you see on these forums is just a tiny little sliver of the information they use to determine the roadmap for the game. Only certain users visit game forums, only certain users visit reddit, some users only will use steam forums, most users dont review a game/product and a user is 10x more likely to review a product they are unhappy with than one they are happy with.

They collect their data from as many places to get the most accurate representation of the general feeling of their customers. That is a driving factor in what direction a game takes and also what they can sell to new players based on market trends.

Apples to Oranges.

You are citing sources about the overall enjoyment/feedback about the game. I'd give it 5 stars on Amazon. Because I like the game.

When Amazon or Steam conducts s survey on the specific issue of Cast Times, then it will be apples to apples. And I'll predict exactly what would happen: People who like cast times will say, "But, but, those surveys are just a small sample of the community!" when they'll happily refer to Amazon and Steam surveys that show a positive reception of the game.

And I can promise you that the forums have, since launch ,been full of non-stop complaining. My favorite thread from April 2014 (Launch):

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/726638#Comment_726638 - 87% of players saying no to AoE Caps.

And despite that, ZOS kept them in for years.

ecru · January 2020

I agree, the cast times are pointless. The new 0.6s cast time for Stonefist doesn't make any sense. It's shorter than the gcd, so it doesn't prevent you from using the ability any slower, it only makes it feel more clunky and makes bar swapping after using it more difficult. There's just no reason for it to exist, all it does is make combat less fluid/responsive and more clunky.

FrankonPC · January 2020

yodased wrote: »

Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue

animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.

No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.

You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.

These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.

Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT

There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.

If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.

You can easily argue that the reason this MMO is better than others is because of their reactive combat. If I wanted to play something slower, I'd go to WOW or Final Fantasy. Why would you want ESO to be like their competitors when in this way they're superior?

IAVITNI · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

It is easy to prove that these forums are not a good measure of public opinion. All you have to do is read them. They are full of bitter non relenting complaining about the game. It use to have some constructive feedback thrown in, but now it is 90% complaining just to be complaining.

You can find this on any given day in any forum subcategory. If you read these forums daily, like i do, you would think this is the most hated, broken, buggy game to ever exist. You wouldnt understand how it hasnt been shut down yet. But if you go Elsweyr, that perception drastically changes.

* 91% of google users like this game.
* 79% of Steam users( all time, over 49k) have a positive view of this game.
* 87% of Steam reviews in the last 30 days (2.8k) have a positive review of the game.
* 4 star plus on amazon.
* 4 out of 5 stars or better from most sites like IGN, MMORPG, PCGameWorld, etc.
* Steam charts. Our best independent idea of users playing the game. Year over year average users growth for 2018-2019:
-Jan. +17%
-Feb. +33%
-Mar. +27%
-Apr. +29%
-May +40%
-Jun +12%
-Jul +7%
-Aug -9%
-Sep -4%
-Oct. -16%
-Nov. +5%
-Dec +4%

As you can see ESO started really strong in the first 2 quarters. As Rich said, " They are killing it". Then it flops and cools down after Elsweyr. That gives the impression that Elsweyr is a flop, but that is unlikely. That is when they started having major problems with performance though. So that put a big damper on people wanting to play.

Gina will gather feedback from various sources and after all feedback is collected, they will determine that the biggest issues with the game causing the drop will likely be performance. Which is why it has become a primary focus, rather than a " we will get to it"

What you see on these forums is just a tiny little sliver of the information they use to determine the roadmap for the game. Only certain users visit game forums, only certain users visit reddit, some users only will use steam forums, most users dont review a game/product and a user is 10x more likely to review a product they are unhappy with than one they are happy with.

They collect their data from as many places to get the most accurate representation of the general feeling of their customers. That is a driving factor in what direction a game takes and also what they can sell to new players based on market trends.

I disagree with you but thanks for this write-up. Honestly, I think you're the first of the opposition to present a counter argument that is objective and based on some form of empirical evidence.

As someone countered prior to, those stats aren't the greatest measurement either. The same reasoning used to invalidate forums can be used to invalidate those polls. I'd also add that many people will rate a game prior to truly completing it or reaching a certain level of end-game, so for example 50% of those polls can be taken from players that have less than a week of game time, which would of course result in a skewed judgement.

PTS forums are still, imo, the best indicator of public opinion. If you hold a car convention, you wouldn't design a car based on the feedback of the majority of attendees. You design the car based on feedback from attendees who have proven in depth experience and understanding.

The same goes for any game. Players who prove they test on the PTS (statistically valid tests with objective non-biased feedback) are the best indication of the state of the game and the consensus of those individuals is that cast times are a poor inclusion into the game.

Players who properly test and share feedback not only show that they have the knowledge and aptitude to test and understand how the game actually works but that they also have the passion to do so.

Reading posts of pro-cast times usually comes from players that cannot backup their arguments with empirical evidence and spread falsities to further their own opinion such as "no other mmo hast cast times" etc.

Fighting games have cast times and cancels, yes. Guess what, ESO is a combat game and an mmo. Plenty of games have cast times and cancels and ESO was released as one of those games.

Opposition loves to ignore that fact.

I personally invested into this game because of the fast paced and predictive combat and have been investing for +3 years. This is also how I sold this game to friends that didn't play. To suddenly have that fluidity of combat changed because of subjectivity is an act of betrayal. I purchased a sports care of PvP mmo and now devs want to turn it into a moped.

To mock anti-cast time players for being upset is folly. We have a right to be upset. We used to play an mmo with one of the most fluid combat system out there. Now it's being turned into a pseudo turn based game. If I wanted that I'd go play chess. The amount of time I have to react at this point is absurd.

I used to have to try to fight top end players. Now I can literally watch Netflix because combat is so slow.

TheFM · January 2020

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

NB has been really hurt by the cast time change. Even before cast times were added it was usually possible to avoid an incap after a fear but now it's trivial to avoid an incap. I don't even like NB's and think they deserve to have their class ult land more often, especially after Defile got removed and cost got increased.

Also @Joy_Division you delivered a Critical Hit above that was both factually accurate and entertaining to read. Thanks for the chuckle.

Nightblades were just spoiled that they could get free kills before. you should -never- be able to kill someone before they can see or hear it in this game, there is 0 counterplay

ElvenVeil wrote: »

one could also ask for a bit more lag in cyrodiil to give enough time for counter play. In all the time I have played I have never heard anyone being happy for cast times, but zos has just introduced a ton of bad decisions, which means the game today just doesn't work well - performance is terrible and all the skill changes, such as cast times and useless skill lines, turn the game into a boring mess.

and if one doesn't believe that is the general opinion just look at the amount of players left in the pvp campaigns. in the past you would have 3 constantly pop locked cp campaigns, and many people in queue. back then people still enjoyed the game. A bit over a year ago you would have 1 pop locked campaign. Now (ofc not with event taking place right now) , you have a hard time reaching even high pop in a campaign.

Happy about cast times here. And quite a few on the forums were as well, they just dont come into these threads becaue they know its just gonna be a bunch of people that want to be able to kill others befor they can respond patting each other on the back.

sweatapodimas wrote: »

Yeah this was a terrible idea. Play in so clunky both in PVE and PVP.

Counterplay isnt clunky, its how the game is supposed to be played. You cannot counter what you cannot see or hear.

FrankonPC wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue

animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.

No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.

You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.

These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.

Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT

There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.

If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.

You can easily argue that the reason this MMO is better than others is because of their reactive combat. If I wanted to play something slower, I'd go to WOW or Final Fantasy. Why would you want ESO to be like their competitors when in this way they're superior?

Tell me, how does one react to something you cannot see or hear? Ill wait.

MusCanus · January 2020

TheFM wrote: »

Happy about cast times here. And quite a few on the forums were as well, they just dont come into these threads becaue they know its just gonna be a bunch of people that want to be able to kill others befor they can respond patting each other on the back.

Here's the answer to this:

SnikerPKK wrote: »

People who are arguing for Cast Times obviously dont know how to PvP, send any of em towards any decent player and they would get trashed.

TheFM wrote: »

Nightblades were just spoiled that they could get free kills before. you should -never- be able to kill someone before they can see or hear it in this game, there is 0 counterplay

If getting hit by a nerfed Incap is a matter of life or death for you, you'll die with or without cast times. Cast times just add a few moments of misery for you and a wasted time for your opponent, that's all. Cast times make it hard or even impossible to kill actually skilled players.

Joy_Division · January 2020

TheFM wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

NB has been really hurt by the cast time change. Even before cast times were added it was usually possible to avoid an incap after a fear but now it's trivial to avoid an incap. I don't even like NB's and think they deserve to have their class ult land more often, especially after Defile got removed and cost got increased.

Also @Joy_Division you delivered a Critical Hit above that was both factually accurate and entertaining to read. Thanks for the chuckle.

Nightblades were just spoiled that they could get free kills before. you should -never- be able to kill someone before they can see or hear it in this game, there is 0 counterplay

ElvenVeil wrote: »

one could also ask for a bit more lag in cyrodiil to give enough time for counter play. In all the time I have played I have never heard anyone being happy for cast times, but zos has just introduced a ton of bad decisions, which means the game today just doesn't work well - performance is terrible and all the skill changes, such as cast times and useless skill lines, turn the game into a boring mess.

and if one doesn't believe that is the general opinion just look at the amount of players left in the pvp campaigns. in the past you would have 3 constantly pop locked cp campaigns, and many people in queue. back then people still enjoyed the game. A bit over a year ago you would have 1 pop locked campaign. Now (ofc not with event taking place right now) , you have a hard time reaching even high pop in a campaign.

Happy about cast times here. And quite a few on the forums were as well, they just dont come into these threads becaue they know its just gonna be a bunch of people that want to be able to kill others befor they can respond patting each other on the back.

sweatapodimas wrote: »

Yeah this was a terrible idea. Play in so clunky both in PVE and PVP.

Counterplay isnt clunky, its how the game is supposed to be played. You cannot counter what you cannot see or hear.

FrankonPC wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue

animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.

No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.

You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.

These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.

Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT

There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.

If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.

You can easily argue that the reason this MMO is better than others is because of their reactive combat. If I wanted to play something slower, I'd go to WOW or Final Fantasy. Why would you want ESO to be like their competitors when in this way they're superior?

Tell me, how does one react to something you cannot see or hear? Ill wait.

The last time I was ganked to death without being able to see or hear what was going on was like 2017 when camo hunter was bugged and long before ZOS nerfed damage from stealth.

This issue was solved years ago. If anyone is still stuggling Vs. ganking NBs, that's is absolutely a L2P issue - especially in the defensive meta we've had for at least a year now, and they are deluding themselves if they think the chief reason they are dying is because they didn't have that few hundred miliseconds to dodge that Incap or Dawnbreaker.

As far as reacting, it's called anticipation, experience, and not being a potato. If you step into the octagon Vs a halfway decent MMA fighter, you aren;t getting all those obvious cues of what your going to get hit with, yet martial arts fighting is still a thing and still a legit test of fighting skill. Back when NBs were actually good, Incap cost 50, always stunned, always defiled, with no cast time, the ones who weren't as skilled or experienced still lost to my mediocre templar. Some people just want ZoS to hold their hand the entire game; they'll come onto these forums just posting death re-caps, whining how abilities are "over-performing," and insist that some class or mechanic needs a nerf. The end result of all of this is to suck the life out of what made this game fun - interesting things we could do with our characters and face paced fluid combat - and these people are still nothing but potatoes in Cyrodiil.

katorga · January 2020

I think the original poster's thesis is completely wrong. The majority want cast times, cooldowns, travel times, spamming penalties, and other variations that obtain the same outcome.

The streamers, most dedicated players, end game players are a minority of the population. The majority is bent on making the game as easy and uncomplicated as possible.

MusCanus · January 2020

katorga wrote: »

I think the original poster's thesis is completely wrong. The majority want cast times, cooldowns, travel times, spamming penalties, and other variations that obtain the same outcome.

The streamers, most dedicated players, end game players are a minority of the population. The majority is bent on making the game as easy and uncomplicated as possible.

Yet this majority is still getting trashed by the minority despite all those nerfs. They can't understand what went wrong so they come to the forums again asking for more nerfs. All because they can't accept the simple fact they're just bad.

killingspreeb16_ESO · January 2020

katorga wrote: »

I think the original poster's thesis is completely wrong. The majority want cast times, cooldowns, travel times, spamming penalties, and other variations that obtain the same outcome.

The streamers, most dedicated players, end game players are a minority of the population. The majority is bent on making the game as easy and uncomplicated as possible.

Disagree.The casual player(the majority in this game) don't actually care most of them are just doing overland content,leveling character or normal dungeon anyway.
They don't need or use Animation Cancel and don't care about it,the forum poll show that many people casual or not don't like it.

The few that want cast time don't even know how animation cancel actually work,just read one of the post of the guy who spawn in every thread where the word "cast time on ultimate" show up,people like him actually think animation cancel let you ignore the GCD and fire 3-4 skill at the same time.

jcm2606 · January 2020

TheFM wrote: »

Happy about cast times here. And quite a few on the forums were as well, they just dont come into these threads becaue they know its just gonna be a bunch of people that want to be able to kill others befor they can respond patting each other on the back.

Except having the cast times is no different to not having them in terms of TTK, unless you're dying to the little extra damage from a bash weave, in which case, it's your build.

I feel people conveniently overlook the fact that the GCD is a thing, when defending the cast times. In case you've forgotten, the GCD is a 1 second global cooldown that prevents you from casting any skill when up, and will only allow you to cast a skill once it has ended.

Animation cancelling, which is what cast times seek to remove from ult usage, cannot change this. No matter how clean you cancel a skill, animation cancelling just moves the skill's effect closer to the end of the last skill's GCD. It does not cause the current skill to enter the last skill's GCD, it doesn't remove the GCD that the last skill invoked, it literally just moves the current skill closer to the end of the last skill's GCD.

By adding cast times, that is literally the only thing removed, the ability to have an ult actually land a little closer to the end of the last skill's GCD. Every skill cast in your combo is still separated by the 1 second GCD, you're just not able to have your ult land closer to that perfect 1 second GCD, instead now it lands closer to a 1.4-ish second GCD, thanks to the cast time.

An ult combo that previously killed someone before they could respond, can still kill someone before they can respond. All the cast times have accomplished, is making ults that much more unreliable. It hasn't impacted gameplay in any way beyond that, and maybe people baiting out dodges.

Abyssmol · January 2020

Yes ZOS, please remove all Cast time and channel from abilities!