Maintenance for the week of September 15:
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
· PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
· PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
The PTS is now offline for the patch 11.2.0 maintenance and is currently unavailable.
A vast majority of players are asking to remove cast times
-
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »I would say something bad about cast times.
But everything I have has already been said
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
The combat team doesn’t listen. They don’t have any clue as to how to balance game.
If you pay any attention to this, then you will see that everyone hates cast times (with the exception of gilvoth) so just remove them
In this case they were right, regardless of what all the 1337 players say, this introduced counter play, before hand you could die before u heard or saw anything. People who want it gone just want their cheap tactics to work again.2 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue
animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.
No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.
You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.
These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.
Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT
There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.
If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.
Well said, and finally someone that sees reason.0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue
animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.
No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.
You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.
These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.
Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT
There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.
If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.
Don't confuse animations and cast times. In most games skills will get cancelled, because they have cast times. And those games are designed arround cast times and the combat system is completely different from the one in ESO. But ESO is designed arround instant abilities - those can't be cancelled by definition (on paper - in practise many skills aren't actually instant and can be cancelled).
Animations are there to tell players what's going on and animation cancelling does not remove animations, so that purpose still remains intact.
There is no reason that something that happened instantly is suddenly going to stop, because i block/roll/bash/weapon swap afterwards.
Cast times in ESO don't work well. They make the game feel slow and clunky, and it becomes worse with the horrible performance.
They don't fix "instant death due to bugs/lacking animation/bad performance/desyncs - just look at snipe which is probably the worst offender in this regard - and it always had a cast time.
Ultimates had sufficient counter play before cast times. Claiming they are too powerful to be instant is utter bs when considering that most of those ults have been nerfed beforehand after being deemed ok for years, they added a cast time to one of the most useless ults in the entire game and they even put one onto a defensive ult, rendering it's whole purpose useless in most cases.11 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue
animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.
No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.
You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.
These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.
Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT
There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.
If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.
Don't confuse animations and cast times. In most games skills will get cancelled, because they have cast times. And those games are designed arround cast times and the combat system is completely different from the one in ESO. But ESO is designed arround instant abilities - those can't be cancelled by definition (on paper - in practise many skills aren't actually instant and can be cancelled).
Animations are there to tell players what's going on and animation cancelling does not remove animations, so that purpose still remains intact.
There is no reason that something that happened instantly is suddenly going to stop, because i block/roll/bash/weapon swap afterwards.
Cast times in ESO don't work well. They make the game feel slow and clunky, and it becomes worse with the horrible performance.
They don't fix "instant death due to bugs/lacking animation/bad performance/desyncs - just look at snipe which is probably the worst offender in this regard - and it always had a cast time.
Ultimates had sufficient counter play before cast times. Claiming they are too powerful to be instant is utter bs when considering that most of those ults have been nerfed beforehand after being deemed ok for years, they added a cast time to one of the most useless ults in the entire game and they even put one onto a defensive ult, rendering it's whole purpose useless in most cases.
Feels fine to me, maybe learn to play with counter play. The only people complaining are the ones that want their ultis to go off without any warning, or who abuses the desync before.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From my personal perspective it´s very clear that players that can and do articulate feedback or adress their concerns in such a way like this topc are not zos target group when doing changes to the game.
They cater to people who spew 3 lines of noncoherent nonsense about things they never even experienced firsthand nor do they really understand what´s happening.
It´s my personal opinion that 80% of changes cater to the latter kind of players bc zos believes they have to cater to a super casual target audience as they believe there´s more money to be made with those players.
The issue is - those ppl will play either way bc they´re incapable of analying gameplay in the first place and as a consequence will never stop spewing nonsense as long as they enter competetive situations with other players.
i´m waiting for the day where a dev realizes that you can not balance for the people living their happy life on mount stupid
even if you have only those people left they´d still complain bc everyone of them believes themselves as gods only child - you´d have to make the game a pure 100% failsafe singleplayer experience to appeal to them
anyway - my personal take away out of this:
to make your feedback be heared just repeat it often and loud and DONT elaborate on why you want sth
just say that you want
or that sth is broken and needs nurfed<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 5012 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From my personal perspective it´s very clear that players that can and do articulate feedback or adress their concerns in such a way like this topc are not zos target group when doing changes to the game.
They cater to people who spew 3 lines of noncoherent nonsense about things they never even experienced firsthand nor do they really understand what´s happening.
It´s my personal opinion that 80% of changes cater to the latter kind of players bc zos believes they have to cater to a super casual target audience as they believe there´s more money to be made with those players.
The issue is - those ppl will play either way bc they´re incapable of analying gameplay in the first place and as a consequence will never stop spewing nonsense as long as they enter competetive situations with other players.
i´m waiting for the day where a dev realizes that you can not balance for the people living their happy life on mount stupid
even if you have only those people left they´d still complain bc everyone of them believes themselves as gods only child - you´d have to make the game a pure 100% failsafe singleplayer experience to appeal to them
anyway - my personal take away out of this:
to make your feedback be heared just repeat it often and loud and DONT elaborate on why you want sth
just say that you want
or that sth is broken and needs nurfed
The ones incapable of reactive gameplay are throwing shade at the ones ok with that , that's hilarious.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From my personal perspective it´s very clear that players that can and do articulate feedback or adress their concerns in such a way like this topc are not zos target group when doing changes to the game.
They cater to people who spew 3 lines of noncoherent nonsense about things they never even experienced firsthand nor do they really understand what´s happening.
It´s my personal opinion that 80% of changes cater to the latter kind of players bc zos believes they have to cater to a super casual target audience as they believe there´s more money to be made with those players.
The issue is - those ppl will play either way bc they´re incapable of analying gameplay in the first place and as a consequence will never stop spewing nonsense as long as they enter competetive situations with other players.
i´m waiting for the day where a dev realizes that you can not balance for the people living their happy life on mount stupid
even if you have only those people left they´d still complain bc everyone of them believes themselves as gods only child - you´d have to make the game a pure 100% failsafe singleplayer experience to appeal to them
anyway - my personal take away out of this:
to make your feedback be heared just repeat it often and loud and DONT elaborate on why you want sth
just say that you want
or that sth is broken and needs nurfed
The ones incapable of reactive gameplay are throwing shade at the ones ok with that , that's hilarious.
I´ve posted numerous times that a better solution would have been to give the skills a minimum animation/traveltime rather than a casttime - like all ranged skills have varying between 200 and 800ms.
This would have made the skills not clunky yet enable reactive gameplay.
Apart from that i don´t use any of the skill that received a casttime - yet i still disagree with it from only being on the receiving end.
This because the implementation is so slow and clunky that it´s not actually reactive gameplay from my perspective but rather a failsafe for anyone half aware of what´s going on on their screen.
I have nothing against being able to react when i read the fight well.
I think it´s absolutely hilarious that i can evade/block skills atm with not having my hand on the keyboard mouse at the time i get attacked.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
MusCanus✭✭✭✭✭I remember the week when cast time were introduced to the live server. Forum looked like that for quite some time.
That was possibly the most busy time that forum mods had with closing threads since long awhile They were closing one every few minutes.
Oh, I love this attached pic, 6 threads criticizing cast times are closed on the first page. You don't need to work with criticism if you can just send a bunch of bot mods who will shut down everything you can't understand. I'd suggest the devs swapping that Major Denseness they're running for at least Minor Intellect.9 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From my personal perspective it´s very clear that players that can and do articulate feedback or adress their concerns in such a way like this topc are not zos target group when doing changes to the game.
They cater to people who spew 3 lines of noncoherent nonsense about things they never even experienced firsthand nor do they really understand what´s happening.
It´s my personal opinion that 80% of changes cater to the latter kind of players bc zos believes they have to cater to a super casual target audience as they believe there´s more money to be made with those players.
The issue is - those ppl will play either way bc they´re incapable of analying gameplay in the first place and as a consequence will never stop spewing nonsense as long as they enter competetive situations with other players.
i´m waiting for the day where a dev realizes that you can not balance for the people living their happy life on mount stupid
even if you have only those people left they´d still complain bc everyone of them believes themselves as gods only child - you´d have to make the game a pure 100% failsafe singleplayer experience to appeal to them
anyway - my personal take away out of this:
to make your feedback be heared just repeat it often and loud and DONT elaborate on why you want sth
just say that you want
or that sth is broken and needs nurfed
The ones incapable of reactive gameplay are throwing shade at the ones ok with that , that's hilarious.
I´ve posted numerous times that a better solution would have been to give the skills a minimum animation/traveltime rather than a casttime - like all ranged skills have varying between 200 and 800ms.
This would have made the skills not clunky yet enable reactive gameplay.
Apart from that i don´t use any of the skill that received a casttime - yet i still disagree with it from only being on the receiving end.
This because the implementation is so slow and clunky that it´s not actually reactive gameplay from my perspective but rather a failsafe for anyone half aware of what´s going on on their screen.
I have nothing against being able to react when i read the fight well.
I think it´s absolutely hilarious that i can evade/block skills atm with not having my hand on the keyboard mouse at the time i get attacked.
Having someone use an onslaught from stealth and there being no sound or animation, and they still get the damage is toxic gameplay. It's not clunky at all, people have just been spoiled with the fact that they got easy kills before on people that couldn't even react to the situation. If there was a cast time for ultis only while on steatlh, that would be ok too, barring that tho, it needs to stay. You cannot be aware of what you cannot see or hear in a video game. There is no smell o vision yet.2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onslaught ganking hasn't been a thing since long before the cast times and cast times wouldn't stop it if it were still a thing because stealth breaks at the end of the cast (or only on hit in case of snipe).Edited by Rianai on January 23, 2020 2:40PM3 -
MusCanus✭✭✭✭✭Onslaught ganking hasn't been a thing since long before the cast times and cast times wouldn't stop it if it were still a thing because stealth breaks at the end of the cast (or only on hit in case of snipe).
Mudcrabs can not process rational arguments and a thought process behind them, try throwing a mudball instead.7 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue
animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.
No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.
You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.
These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.
Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT
There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.
If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.
Don't confuse animations and cast times. In most games skills will get cancelled, because they have cast times. And those games are designed arround cast times and the combat system is completely different from the one in ESO. But ESO is designed arround instant abilities - those can't be cancelled by definition (on paper - in practise many skills aren't actually instant and can be cancelled).
Animations are there to tell players what's going on and animation cancelling does not remove animations, so that purpose still remains intact.
There is no reason that something that happened instantly is suddenly going to stop, because i block/roll/bash/weapon swap afterwards.
Cast times in ESO don't work well. They make the game feel slow and clunky, and it becomes worse with the horrible performance.
They don't fix "instant death due to bugs/lacking animation/bad performance/desyncs - just look at snipe which is probably the worst offender in this regard - and it always had a cast time.
Ultimates had sufficient counter play before cast times. Claiming they are too powerful to be instant is utter bs when considering that most of those ults have been nerfed beforehand after being deemed ok for years, they added a cast time to one of the most useless ults in the entire game and they even put one onto a defensive ult, rendering it's whole purpose useless in most cases.
But the thing is its not "instant" at all. There are animations that are there to show what is happening to your opponent so they have a chance to react to it.
Lets take dawnbreaker for a specific example.
The animation of dawnbreaker is you bring your hand into the air and then slam it down, causing a wave in front of you. There is a flash of light at the top of the swing. Lets call that half a second of animation for that skill.
So say you are going to cast dawnbreaker and in the middle of your swing you hit block. You do not continue the downward motion and slam the ground, there is no wave.
There is no logical reason that you should be able to still have the effect and damage of the skill without completing the animation.
Why is the animation there in the first place?
I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to stop the dawnbreaker to say block an incoming snipe, of course you should be able to that is what gives you reactive combat, but and this is a big but, there should not be the damage from the skill.
Lets look at snipe.
You have a 1second pull back and you aim your bow in the air and you let loose an arrow. If you stop the animation from loosing the arrow at .8 or .7 whatever it's cancelled by (I am not a bow user by default so go easy on me on the math here) you should not be able to hit the target.
The point is there is an inherit "cast time" to every skill because there is an animation attached to it. If you hit a button and they have to swing the sword, the animation begins immediately and the damage portion of that skill should by default happen at the end of the animation.
If you cancel the animation, you cancel the damage. It's that simple.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.6 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.5 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
It is easy to prove that these forums are not a good measure of public opinion. All you have to do is read them. They are full of bitter non relenting complaining about the game. It use to have some constructive feedback thrown in, but now it is 90% complaining just to be complaining.
You can find this on any given day in any forum subcategory. If you read these forums daily, like i do, you would think this is the most hated, broken, buggy game to ever exist. You wouldnt understand how it hasnt been shut down yet. But if you go Elsweyr, that perception drastically changes.
* 91% of google users like this game.
* 79% of Steam users( all time, over 49k) have a positive view of this game.
* 87% of Steam reviews in the last 30 days (2.8k) have a positive review of the game.
* 4 star plus on amazon.
* 4 out of 5 stars or better from most sites like IGN, MMORPG, PCGameWorld, etc.
* Steam charts. Our best independent idea of users playing the game. Year over year average users growth for 2018-2019:
-Jan. +17%
-Feb. +33%
-Mar. +27%
-Apr. +29%
-May +40%
-Jun +12%
-Jul +7%
-Aug -9%
-Sep -4%
-Oct. -16%
-Nov. +5%
-Dec +4%
As you can see ESO started really strong in the first 2 quarters. As Rich said, " They are killing it". Then it flops and cools down after Elsweyr. That gives the impression that Elsweyr is a flop, but that is unlikely. That is when they started having major problems with performance though. So that put a big damper on people wanting to play.
Gina will gather feedback from various sources and after all feedback is collected, they will determine that the biggest issues with the game causing the drop will likely be performance. Which is why it has become a primary focus, rather than a " we will get to it"
What you see on these forums is just a tiny little sliver of the information they use to determine the roadmap for the game. Only certain users visit game forums, only certain users visit reddit, some users only will use steam forums, most users dont review a game/product and a user is 10x more likely to review a product they are unhappy with than one they are happy with.
They collect their data from as many places to get the most accurate representation of the general feeling of their customers. That is a driving factor in what direction a game takes and also what they can sell to new players based on market trends.
Edited by Anotherone773 on January 23, 2020 4:06PM3 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »I would say something bad about cast times.
But everything I have has already been said
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
The combat team doesn’t listen. They don’t have any clue as to how to balance game.
If you pay any attention to this, then you will see that everyone hates cast times (with the exception of gilvoth) so just remove them
In this case they were right, regardless of what all the 1337 players say, this introduced counter play, before hand you could die before u heard or saw anything. People who want it gone just want their cheap tactics to work again.
well said
all truth0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From my personal perspective it´s very clear that players that can and do articulate feedback or adress their concerns in such a way like this topc are not zos target group when doing changes to the game.
They cater to people who spew 3 lines of noncoherent nonsense about things they never even experienced firsthand nor do they really understand what´s happening.
It´s my personal opinion that 80% of changes cater to the latter kind of players bc zos believes they have to cater to a super casual target audience as they believe there´s more money to be made with those players.
The issue is - those ppl will play either way bc they´re incapable of analying gameplay in the first place and as a consequence will never stop spewing nonsense as long as they enter competetive situations with other players.
i´m waiting for the day where a dev realizes that you can not balance for the people living their happy life on mount stupid
even if you have only those people left they´d still complain bc everyone of them believes themselves as gods only child - you´d have to make the game a pure 100% failsafe singleplayer experience to appeal to them
anyway - my personal take away out of this:
to make your feedback be heared just repeat it often and loud and DONT elaborate on why you want sth
just say that you want
or that sth is broken and needs nurfed
The ones incapable of reactive gameplay are throwing shade at the ones ok with that , that's hilarious.
I´ve posted numerous times that a better solution would have been to give the skills a minimum animation/traveltime rather than a casttime - like all ranged skills have varying between 200 and 800ms.
This would have made the skills not clunky yet enable reactive gameplay.
Apart from that i don´t use any of the skill that received a casttime - yet i still disagree with it from only being on the receiving end.
This because the implementation is so slow and clunky that it´s not actually reactive gameplay from my perspective but rather a failsafe for anyone half aware of what´s going on on their screen.
I have nothing against being able to react when i read the fight well.
I think it´s absolutely hilarious that i can evade/block skills atm with not having my hand on the keyboard mouse at the time i get attacked.
Having someone use an onslaught from stealth and there being no sound or animation, and they still get the damage is toxic gameplay. It's not clunky at all, people have just been spoiled with the fact that they got easy kills before on people that couldn't even react to the situation. If there was a cast time for ultis only while on steatlh, that would be ok too, barring that tho, it needs to stay. You cannot be aware of what you cannot see or hear in a video game. There is no smell o vision yet.
finaly someone with reason and understanding.
you are dead on correct.1 -
MusCanus✭✭✭✭✭
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
It is not about seeing something, but about the effect. Following that logic every skill in the game has an animation, yet some of them are counted as instant, why not add cast times to all of them so we can all see the hard work put into the animations? Why only ultimates? As someone has quoted ZOS' brainfart like "they are too powerful blah-blah". All of them are? Equally? And skills are not? Or not all of them?Edited by MusCanus on January 23, 2020 4:39PM0 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue
animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.
No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.
No other mmorpg has animation cancelling? No other mmorpg has something where you are attacking something and the block cancels the animation with the damage going through? BDO? Your pretty funny, the first video I searched with "bdo animation cancel" instantly showcases how to block cancel a skill. It's a core component of that game. Maybe next time, stick to telling the truth.
Animation cancelling is a huge part of making combat in this game smooth. Having cast times on skills not only removes skill expression, but also severely hinders the ability for players with high ping to land their skills.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
It is not about seeing something, but about the effect. Following that logic every skill in the game has an animation, yet some of them are counted as instant, why not add cast times to all of them so we can all see the hard work put into the animations? Why only ultimates? As someone has quoted ZOS' brainfart like "they are too powerful blah-blah". All of them are? Equally? And skills are not? Or not of them?
No, its literally about seeing it. The effect comes after seeing it. Just because YOU have the ability to predict what is going to happen from experience or because you have a crystal ball doesn't mean that it makes logical sense.
Every single skill in the game has an animation, which means they already have a cast time. If it was "instant" there would be no need for animation. The conflation is because one animation and effect start at the same time for some skills and other skills have a pre-animation.
I was never talking about just ultimates, I have been talking about every skill in the game from the get go. You can't honestly believe that its better to have no animations at all, but that is what you are arguing for.
There is a beginning a middle and and end to every skill in the game, the damage effect of those skills should only ever happen if the end of the animation is complete.
Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.3 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭.
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
But you see part of the animation even if you cancel it and your logic works in game designed to be that way not eso.
Imagine playing the way you describe.
Light attack>istant spammable skill>weapon swap like we do in game but with your logic only weapon swap would go off because the light attack would have been canceled by the spammable that is also going to be canceled by the weapon swap.
I think everyone that actually play the game instead of the forum know that a gameplay like this is going to kill this game for good.
4 -
MusCanus✭✭✭✭✭
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
It is not about seeing something, but about the effect. Following that logic every skill in the game has an animation, yet some of them are counted as instant, why not add cast times to all of them so we can all see the hard work put into the animations? Why only ultimates? As someone has quoted ZOS' brainfart like "they are too powerful blah-blah". All of them are? Equally? And skills are not? Or not of them?
No, its literally about seeing it. The effect comes after seeing it. Just because YOU have the ability to predict what is going to happen from experience or because you have a crystal ball doesn't mean that it makes logical sense.
Every single skill in the game has an animation, which means they already have a cast time. If it was "instant" there would be no need for animation. The conflation is because one animation and effect start at the same time for some skills and other skills have a pre-animation.
I was never talking about just ultimates, I have been talking about every skill in the game from the get go. You can't honestly believe that its better to have no animations at all, but that is what you are arguing for.
There is a beginning a middle and and end to every skill in the game, the damage effect of those skills should only ever happen if the end of the animation is complete.
I'm arguing for consistency, I guess you're too, right? If so, for every skill ulti or nor the damage effect should only happen at the very end of the animation, the healing and shielding effects should only happen at the end of the animation too. Talking about damage effect, are we counting light attacks? There is some animation put into them too yet some bad people try to weave them or how they're calling it and are even being advised to do so on the loading screens. How come?0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Anotherone773
Google or Steam aren't neccessarily better measurements of "public opinion" than forums. You are looking at a limited sample either way. And those statistics certainly don't tell anything about what people think about cast times on ultimates.
Many reviews and evaluations on platforms like google, steam or amazon are created by people that don't have much knowledge about what they are rating, if any at all - even payed fake reviews can be a thing - so i'd always take those with a grain of salt. Ofc forums are not exclusively filled with reasonable, factual and valueable feedback - but it is usually a place where we can find people that are a bit more involved in whatever the forum is about.
So the only thing we do know is that the vast majority of players that care enough to voice their opinion on this forum do not like cast times. And we do have plenty of evidence for this. Everything else is wild speculation.
If the majority of total players isn't affected by something or simply doesn't care - their opinion on the subject is irrelevant, because it basically doesn't exist. And if an opinion is based on lack of knowledge, then it shouldn't be basis for decision making either.
Edited by Rianai on January 23, 2020 5:00PM0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: ».
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
But you see part of the animation even if you cancel it and your logic works in game designed to be that way not eso.
Imagine playing the way you describe.
Light attack>istant spammable skill>weapon swap like we do in game but with your logic only weapon swap would go off because the light attack would have been canceled by the spammable that is also going to be canceled by the weapon swap.
I think everyone that actually play the game instead of the forum know that a gameplay like this is going to kill this game for good.
Not true, my logic would mean that you would simply add whatever milliseconds to the combo. light attack animation to instant skill to weapon swap right now its maybe 100ms because you are clipping the end of the animations, with what i'm speaking of it simply adds 300ms to that combo so everything still happens the way you expect it to, you just finish out the animation before the next animation happens.
If you cancel the animation before it finishes sure, but thats the entire point of what I'm saying.
Why have animations that have a set time to them if they don't matter?
I understand that you enjoy the way the combat is right now and you feel like my logic would be taking something away, but try to objectively look at it from a development standpoint.
Why do animations have an arc if they don't matter? Why not just clip the animation to the least common denominator and save all that development time?
I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to combo skills together, simply that you should have to wait until the animation is complete to be able to have an attack done.
I guess the simplest way of stating it is the same way that they changed vampire drain -> the animation completes and the skill effect happens. If you cancel the skill before the animation is complete, you don't get the benefit of the skill.
This will 100% slow the combat down by milliseconds for each skill, that is a fact that I am not disputing, but my point is that it should be that way from the design of the game.
Cancelling animations cancels the skills effect.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.4 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
It is not about seeing something, but about the effect. Following that logic every skill in the game has an animation, yet some of them are counted as instant, why not add cast times to all of them so we can all see the hard work put into the animations? Why only ultimates? As someone has quoted ZOS' brainfart like "they are too powerful blah-blah". All of them are? Equally? And skills are not? Or not of them?
No, its literally about seeing it. The effect comes after seeing it. Just because YOU have the ability to predict what is going to happen from experience or because you have a crystal ball doesn't mean that it makes logical sense.
Every single skill in the game has an animation, which means they already have a cast time. If it was "instant" there would be no need for animation. The conflation is because one animation and effect start at the same time for some skills and other skills have a pre-animation.
I was never talking about just ultimates, I have been talking about every skill in the game from the get go. You can't honestly believe that its better to have no animations at all, but that is what you are arguing for.
There is a beginning a middle and and end to every skill in the game, the damage effect of those skills should only ever happen if the end of the animation is complete.
I'm arguing for consistency, I guess you're too, right? If so, for every skill ulti or nor the damage effect should only happen at the very end of the animation, the healing and shielding effects should only happen at the end of the animation too. Talking about damage effect, are we counting light attacks? There is some animation put into them too yet some bad people try to weave them or how they're calling it and are even being advised to do so on the loading screens. How come?
Yes I'm trying to be consistent with the animations in the game, every animation from light attack and heavy attack to ultimates all have an arc to them and in my opinion and really logically, they should have to be complete for the benefit of that skill to take effect.
light attack weaving isn't cancelling an animation though, its adding a light attack in between other animations. So you light attack then immediately use another skill, neither of those skills are clipping the animation of the other, they are just happening in sequence as a combo.
Its like using a fire staff heavy attack and holding the left mouse down for a fully charged heavy attack and pressing 1 while you are attacking. Immediately after the attack animation is fired out of the staff and the projectile is headed towards the enemy, the secondary skill fires.
This is what I'm proposing all skills would be like.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.3 -
MusCanus✭✭✭✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: ».
Block casting is in the same boat as animation cancelling. If you can't see the animation, you don't get the effect.
If they rework blocking animation to be able to see casting effects then that would be fine, but good for the goose good for the gander.
I understand you are trying to poke at me, but my logic is sound in both game design and function. The reason they never changed animation cancelling in the first place is because they couldn't or didn't feel it warranted engineering time, now they do and they are bringing it in line with what I feel was the original scope of the design documents.
Animations exist with beginning middle and end, why even have the end animation if it doesn't matter? Why waste all that calculation time, art development time, animation time if you are going to allow people to continue the damage before the animation is complete?
But you see part of the animation even if you cancel it and your logic works in game designed to be that way not eso.
Imagine playing the way you describe.
Light attack>istant spammable skill>weapon swap like we do in game but with your logic only weapon swap would go off because the light attack would have been canceled by the spammable that is also going to be canceled by the weapon swap.
I think everyone that actually play the game instead of the forum know that a gameplay like this is going to kill this game for good.
Not true, my logic would mean that you would simply add whatever milliseconds to the combo. light attack animation to instant skill to weapon swap right now its maybe 100ms because you are clipping the end of the animations, with what i'm speaking of it simply adds 300ms to that combo so everything still happens the way you expect it to, you just finish out the animation before the next animation happens.
If you cancel the animation before it finishes sure, but thats the entire point of what I'm saying.
Why have animations that have a set time to them if they don't matter?
I understand that you enjoy the way the combat is right now and you feel like my logic would be taking something away, but try to objectively look at it from a development standpoint.
Why do animations have an arc if they don't matter? Why not just clip the animation to the least common denominator and save all that development time?
I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to combo skills together, simply that you should have to wait until the animation is complete to be able to have an attack done.
I guess the simplest way of stating it is the same way that they changed vampire drain -> the animation completes and the skill effect happens. If you cancel the skill before the animation is complete, you don't get the benefit of the skill.
This will 100% slow the combat down by milliseconds for each skill, that is a fact that I am not disputing, but my point is that it should be that way from the design of the game.
Cancelling animations cancels the skills effect.
Yes, yes we got it. But it would be like this in reality: you have 20% HP left, you press you heal but then press block or dodge too early, and FU... you're dead. Cause the heal didn't register. Or you didn't press block but died anyway cause you can't outheal execute without it. But it all looked so beautiful.1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭NB has been really hurt by the cast time change. Even before cast times were added it was usually possible to avoid an incap after a fear but now it's trivial to avoid an incap. I don't even like NB's and think they deserve to have their class ult land more often, especially after Defile got removed and cost got increased.
Also @Joy_Division you delivered a Critical Hit above that was both factually accurate and entertaining to read. Thanks for the chuckle.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP2 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »You say you started listening yo your player base after 5 years. Why won't you listen on basic stuff like NOT (NOT, i repeat, NOT) make combat clunkier? If so many people are asking to remove them, why the hell are you adding them to even more skills? Gosh we can't even ani cancel properly on pts! What the hell are doing guys?
Idk if you lost it in the process, but the goal here is to have people have more fun and improve the game so you get more money. Radically changing a 5yo product that people got so used to, will obtain the exact opposite.
See you in update 26, hopefully...
Just a thought maybe they don't want you to cancel the Animations and look like a convulsion ridden squirrel who ate crack rocks for max dps numbers?2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Why do animations have an arc if they don't matter? Why not just clip the animation to the least common denominator and save all that development time?
Ultimately only the devs can answer why the animations look like they do, but my guess is they just wanted to make them look nice. But visuals should never impair functionality and fortunately animation cancelling does prevent this from happening. And now you want to change what has worked completely fine for years, because ... why even? It would look nicer?
And we certainly aren't talking about a minor impact here. Because most animations last longer than' you'd think if you weren't used to cancelling them intentionally or unintentionally. Your claim that "light attack weaving isn't animation cancelling" shows your ignorance quite well.1 -
MusCanus✭✭✭✭✭ight attack weaving isn't cancelling an animation though, its adding a light attack in between other animations. So you light attack then immediately use another skill, neither of those skills are clipping the animation of the other, they are just happening in sequence as a combo.
Its like using a fire staff heavy attack and holding the left mouse down for a fully charged heavy attack and pressing 1 while you are attacking. Immediately after the attack animation is fired out of the staff and the projectile is headed towards the enemy, the secondary skill fires.
This is what I'm proposing all skills would be like.
HAs can be cancelled before their animation completes, there even was a thread about it some time ago. With frames time. LAs too if you try to actually look at the animations you're so eagerly defending.Edited by MusCanus on January 23, 2020 5:26PM2