Are you okay with ESO getting on path of P2W model?

daemonios · November 2019

drkfrontiers wrote: »

I will pay for anything that improves the comfort of my experience.

Even when the discomfort is entirely in the hands of ZOS, who put it in the game precisely to sell you an easy solution?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

ZonasArch · November 2019

Delpi wrote: »

It begins with a 5 slot pet (Insignificant and testing the waters) it ends with a 100-200 slot pet. What would you think then?

Could be 500 and it should still be meaningless. You can't win anything even with 2k slots.
Read with me slowly:
Pay
To
Win

What's the keyword? "Win".

Now read again with me. Slowly...

Can't
Win
With
Big
Bag

Keyword? Can't.

Valabrog · November 2019

Woodoochill wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP is incorrect in their definition of advantage.

P2w has long been considered when you can buy items in the crown store that make your character stronger in combat than the character can be with items obtained in game.

So storage is not going to make a character stronger by any definition

There is the definition for you... Lets put aside the subject of pet for now and take the golds(which you can make more from having bigger inventory btw). As many knows you can get golds for selling crowns - these golds can be used to buy items for improving weapons to gold quality which is kinda huge boost over purple ones - now tell me, do the person with gold gear have advantage over purple geard in pvp and higher dps in pve?

idk wrote: »

Pay to win is when you can buy BETTER items with real money than you can get in-game.

Pay to win is not when you can buy EQUAL items with real money.

In ESO you can achieve everything without spenfing additional money, so ESO its not pay to win.

The term "pay to win" came from the old games (probably you wasnt born yet at that time) where you can buy X gun only for real money and that gun does double damage to other players and there were no posibilities to loot/find equal or better guns in-game.

This game has bigger problems than crappy cash store..

Tigerseye · November 2019

Depends.

At the moment, you can convert gold to Crowns, but it can be risky and inconvenient.

If they add a safe and convenient way to convert gold to Crowns (and vice versa), then it's no longer a problem.

ZonasArch · November 2019

Valabrog wrote: »

Woodoochill wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP is incorrect in their definition of advantage.

P2w has long been considered when you can buy items in the crown store that make your character stronger in combat than the character can be with items obtained in game.

So storage is not going to make a character stronger by any definition

There is the definition for you... Lets put aside the subject of pet for now and take the golds(which you can make more from having bigger inventory btw). As many knows you can get golds for selling crowns - these golds can be used to buy items for improving weapons to gold quality which is kinda huge boost over purple ones - now tell me, do the person with gold gear have advantage over purple geard in pvp and higher dps in pve?

idk wrote: »

Pay to win is when you can buy BETTER items with real money than you can get in-game.

Pay to win is not when you can buy EQUAL items with real money.

In ESO you can achieve everything without spenfing additional money, so ESO its not pay to win.

The term "pay to win" came from the old games (probably you wasnt born yet at that time) where you can buy X gun only for real money and that gun does double damage to other players and there were no posibilities to loot/find equal or better guns in-game.

This game has bigger problems than crappy cash store..

If you're trying to imply that this argument is valid, I'll tell you...b the amount of extra gold you'll get by having 5 extra slots is exactly zero.

Fine one example where those slots would make a difference, and I'll let you know that I farm materials, I grab literally every single type of node, and it's on a cp160 but no crafting toon with only 160 slots, meaning for leveled mats, I get twice as many, and I never really fun out of bag space before I have to visit a bank anyway. If I had 5 more slots on that one, I'd be out farming exactly zero minutes more.

I can reply to other use cases you may come up with as we go, because I'm sure 5 extra slots are useless. Absolutely useless

Tigerseye · November 2019

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

Your definition of p2w is skewed. A few more slots aren't going to impact much honestly. Also, you can obtain this through other means by paying gold for crowns. The skyshard and other things have to be done on one tune first in order to purchase.

Judging by your poll and your opening comments you are that person who can't see past your own experience so this won't get read anyway.

Also if you need 1200 crowns I can just Paypal you some or even send you the gold to get your pig, bc I grind and trade for all the millions of gold I have in-game. Nothing is p2w and the cash shop is optional, not necessary to enjoy the game.

Someone had to spend money still to do the gold crown exchange lol.

Its like you are missing the point.

Not necessarily directly, though.

They might just have accumulated Crowns from their ESO+ sub.

Either way, they would have done the conversion anyway, whether this pet was available, for people doing the opposite, or not.

The conversion ship sailed a while ago.

Marcus684 · November 2019

So what you’re saying is, I’m only average because I don’t have enough inventory slots? Buying a pet that increases my inventory by 2.5% will increase my dps, or make help me win more at PvP? Well ***. And here I was thinking I just needed to git gud. Here piggy piggy piggy.

idk · November 2019

The link below is a thread with a much better poll concerning the question of this pet being P2W or not. Significantly clear in both it's question and answers. It also shows how few think this pet is P2W.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501309/do-you-consider-the-new-pet-p2w/p1

zaria · November 2019

No

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Woodoochill wrote: »

I am not going do discuss with anyone whether it is or it is not P2W since it clearly follows the basic idea of advantage over regular players because they are unable to acquire it without spending crowns for it

Spending Crowns is not the issue.
Spending real money is the issue since Crowns come from real money.
So you might as well ask is offering ESO+ for double bank space and infinite crafting bag being on the path of pay to win.
Same with buying houses -- people have to store excess furnishings in houses because otherwise their inventory would be full. Is buying houses for furnishing inventory space part of your P2W complaint too? Because houses cost A LOT of crowns and a lot of them can't be earned in-game or bought with gold and they can't be gifted.

Main reason for dropping ESO after an year was the inventory mini game who took up half my playtime.
Came back some year later and had ESO+, for me its an sub game.
Yes if you only do one part of the game like you only do PvP or only do the quests it works without eso+
But not for me.
Now say they increased bank space for ESO+ to 500 would that be P2W?

idk · November 2019

onemoredragon wrote: »

idk wrote: »

While I think Zos has been poorly managing this game since well before it launched this is one area I am pretty sure they have a firm understanding that if they cross it the company would forever be known for creating P2W games and the serious gaming community would become weary of playing any MMORPG they created going forward and maybe even other games.

I honestly cannot tell what Zos will or will not do, but I believe that things that borderline on P2W are already a wearing down factor. The closer to the line they get, the more doubt and confusion it sows in players' minds (some of them at least). I'm glad there's someone who is convinced this won't happen

In the post shortly before this one I linked a different thread with a much clearer poll on the subject of this pet being P2W. Players pretty much know that 5 extra storage slots has nothing to do with being able to win more fights making it no where near P2W..

It is fine for players to have concerns that Zos might someday cross that line but for now it is merely worry warts/conspiracy theory talk.

Tigerseye · November 2019

Woodoochill wrote: »

In the end its all pay for convenience BUT - when you take all these things, and compare player with them against player without it after 2000h of gameplay time there will be such noticable difference, that the convenience-less player will feel like he did not accomplish anything and most of all starts to have feeling of "what if I put those 100$ in like he did, I would surely be much much further than I am" and exactly that, my friend, is P2W - that feeling when you think for yourself "what if I payed for that small convenience back in last year"

Well, no, that's technically still pay for convenience.

Pay for convenience often equates to pay to save time, in one way or another.

However, it is not technically pay to win, unless you cannot acquire the item in-game, at all; or, at least, cannot acquire it at least somewhat reasonably.

If you can acquire it, even if it takes a few weeks to grind the gold, or whatever, to do so, it is not technically pay to win.

I do get what you are saying, though.

That, if they have designed a game in such a way that it takes a very long time to get something, in game, it might almost as well be unattainable.

In which case, the line between pay for convenience/to save time and pay to win becomes very blurred.

Jimmy_The_Fixer · November 2019

The pig is only P2W if you consider inventory size to be the real endgame of ESO

Tigerseye · November 2019

Iluvrien wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

5 more slots in your inventory isnt winning. Anything.

Its pay 4 convenience.

@ArchMikem do you honestly believe that this is going to stop at a single item that grants only 5 slots?

Of course not. Next they will offer you a subscription in exchange for an unlimited Crafting Bag and double Bank space.

What do you mean next?

We started with a subscription. Anything that was added to the subscription was to keep people from abandoning it after ZOS showed their true colours.

He was being sarcastic.

Woodoochill · November 2019

No

idk wrote: »

The link below is a thread with a much better poll concerning the question of this pet being P2W or not. Significantly clear in both it's question and answers. It also shows how few think this pet is P2W.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501309/do-you-consider-the-new-pet-p2w/p1

And you still did not understand, this poll is not asking if some damn pet is being p2w or not. Some ppl just wont stop to amaze.

Ackwalan · November 2019

ZonasArch wrote: »

Delpi wrote: »

It begins with a 5 slot pet (Insignificant and testing the waters) it ends with a 100-200 slot pet. What would you think then?

Could be 500 and it should still be meaningless. You can't win anything even with 2k slots.
Read with me slowly:
Pay
To
Win

What's the keyword? "Win".

Now read again with me. Slowly...

Can't
Win
With
Big
Bag

Keyword? Can't.

Read with me slowly.

The +5 to space is not the end, it is the beginning. When crown only mounts/pets give a +% to stats, regen, damage the argument will be, 'well it's been in the game forever, just look at the +5 pig'.

PizzaCat82 · November 2019

No

Thank you OP, I immediately went out and purchased the pig, I didn't know it gave +5 inventory spaces.

Is it P2W? No. Do I want ZOS to start doing P2W? No. If it affects combat or gives the player an unfair advantage over another, thats P2W.

There's already a bit of P2W in the DLC content, such as DLC dungeons, but honestly in any game with DLC you're gonna have more powerful items in new content because the content is harder.

ZonasArch · November 2019

Woodoochill wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The link below is a thread with a much better poll concerning the question of this pet being P2W or not. Significantly clear in both it's question and answers. It also shows how few think this pet is P2W.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501309/do-you-consider-the-new-pet-p2w/p1

And you still did not understand, this poll is not asking if some damn pet is being p2w or not. Some ppl just wont stop to amaze.

You're arguing that this is definitely the case, and you're definitely wrong though. That makes you poll senseless, and that's what we want you to understand.

You can't ask "if gravity is fake, do you prefer orange juice or lime?". It's a matter of mathematical logic... Your condition is fake, therefore your conclusion, even if it's true/valid itself in a vacuum, is still invalid in the context. You assume this pig is p2w when it's clearly not, anything that comes after this statement is, by the blessings of mathematics, invalid.

Hapexamendios · November 2019

If it ever gets to the point where people can pay for more weapon damage, spell damage, health, stam etc, I’m done.

ZonasArch · November 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Delpi wrote: »

It begins with a 5 slot pet (Insignificant and testing the waters) it ends with a 100-200 slot pet. What would you think then?

Could be 500 and it should still be meaningless. You can't win anything even with 2k slots.
Read with me slowly:
Pay
To
Win

What's the keyword? "Win".

Now read again with me. Slowly...

Can't
Win
With
Big
Bag

Keyword? Can't.

Read with me slowly.

The +5 to space is not the end, it is the beginning. When crown only mounts/pets give a +% to stats, regen, damage the argument will be, 'well it's been in the game forever, just look at the +5 pig'.

When your argument becomes true, I'll be the first to call it p2w, don't worry.

And there are also p2w this for under 50 BG and cyrodiil, since you can't reasonably have a low level toon with Max FG, MG and undaunted. And now the main quest. And WW. And Vamp... For under 50 PvP, this game already has p2w, even if isn't fully around in the game.

The pig, however, isn't p2w in the slightest. Nor it'll ever be. The "the remember the pig" argument won't exist, except for the thick skulls that already call it p2w, even though I'm still waiting to be killed with a "205 bag slots" on my death recap...

ArchMikem · November 2019

Yes

Tigerseye wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

5 more slots in your inventory isnt winning. Anything.

Its pay 4 convenience.

ArchMikem do you honestly believe that this is going to stop at a single item that grants only 5 slots?

Of course not. Next they will offer you a subscription in exchange for an unlimited Crafting Bag and double Bank space.

What do you mean next?

We started with a subscription. Anything that was added to the subscription was to keep people from abandoning it after ZOS showed their true colours.

He was being sarcastic.

Yknow when you guys start a new convo using a reply that @me'd i get all the notifications.

peacenote · November 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Read with me slowly.

The +5 to space is not the end, it is the beginning. When crown only mounts/pets give a +% to stats, regen, damage the argument will be, 'well it's been in the game forever, just look at the +5 pig'.

Again I will say that an ESO+ subscription is a way to pay for additional benefits in game. As a matter of fact, it was originally the ONLY way to participate in the game. Once it became optional, subscribers obtained these benefits:

Access to all DLC game packs in the in-game Crown Store
Free crowns for the in-game Crown Store
Access to the Craft Bag
Double bank space
Bonuses to progression
Extra furniture space
Costume dyeing
Double Transmutation Crystals
Exclusive access to unique Crown Store deals

Link? Here you go!

These are much grander benefits than +5 slots that have been on sale for a LONG time.

There is literally no reason to think ZOS is going to add increase to stats, regen, or damage to items in the Crown Store based on this new item. The pig is a continuation of something that's been in place since 2015, which is that you can pay for more space.

Not p2w. Not the beginning. Not a precedent. And not even the biggest cost attached to storage that we've seen, since ESO+ adds up to way more than the pig.

Personally I think that allowing people to pay to skip content via Crown Store purchases (skyshards) was a much bigger precedent and a much more concerning step in the p2w direction than the inventory pig. *shrug* That's my two cents.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · November 2019

No

ChunkyCat wrote: »

I’m rich

go to BDO then.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · November 2019

Yes

Woodoochill wrote: »

Read the question again. If you are reading it over and over and still see it as "is the pet p2w?" then head here.

I do not see your point. Is there any competition of who has the biggest inventory space?
Doubt it, so this is not P2W.

yRaven · November 2019

5 slots more on my inventory HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Now i can finally get that Griphon Heart Title

GrimTheReaper45 · November 2019

No

Again, as I stated in the other thread. I dont think this instance is p2w. Over all though zos is definitely trying to test the waters and move the game in a more p2w direction.

That I am not ok with.

idk · November 2019

Woodoochill wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The link below is a thread with a much better poll concerning the question of this pet being P2W or not. Significantly clear in both it's question and answers. It also shows how few think this pet is P2W.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501309/do-you-consider-the-new-pet-p2w/p1

And you still did not understand, this poll is not asking if some damn pet is being p2w or not. Some ppl just wont stop to amaze.

Pretty much you are.

Woodoochill wrote: »

I am not going do discuss with anyone whether it is or it is not P2W since it clearly follows the basic idea of advantage over regular players because they are unable to acquire it without spending crowns for it (I might be mistaken but can't find in under "not collected" pets where ingame obtainable pets are but if so, this poll is meaningless).

This is you clearly saying it clearly saying it is P2W but that you are not going to discuss whether it is or not.

So you did premise the idea that the pet is P2W and you also said you would not discuss whether it is or not which again you are.

I am not the only one who got that clear message. There would be no reason to mention the pet in that context if you were not suggesting the pet was P2W. You set the tone, not me.

Valamist · November 2019

No

Voted no, but also do not consider the pet to be P2W.

It is a boar. With 5 extra item slots. Could it be the start of some 'evil scheme' designed to make the game P2W? Well, yeah, it could be. Nothing in life is certain. But attack ZoS for 'what ifs' just seems reactionary. There are better things to be mad about, like how pathetic and vampieric the loot box system is.

Contaminate · November 2019

No

It's another instance of Pay Us to Solve a Problem We Designed, same as what happened in FO76 when the gear degradation rates got hugely amplified to impede normal play, so they could sell repair systems in the cash shop.

It's also clearly a test to see how the community reacts to stat bonuses on cosmetics. Unfortunately, it seems like they're being defended so the trend will continue into bigger bonuses. I imagine mounts faster than the established cap will appear soon. After that probably 50 weapon and spell damage on a costume, 5% damage mitigation, etc etc. "But those tiny bonuses won't let someone win" so inevitably some people will still defend it as "Not P2W"

Minyassa · November 2019

It's not. 5 extra inventory slots is not winning. It's a luxury. A teeny, tiny luxury.

preevious · November 2019

Biased poll is biased .. the question is asked in bad faith.

I choose the third answer : there's no p2W path

[snip]
[edited for baiting]