Reflective Plate. Why the change should be reverted. Comparison of DK treatment with other classes

Derra · October 2019

Anyone who needs and advocates for 1 button 100% hardcounters in the game needs to take a step back and maybe approach the topic from a different perspective than "muh class got nurfed wuah wuah".

Anyone who ever fought an even half decent magDK with old wings on a projectile build will tell you it was absolutely stupid.

That said. I dislike what they did to wings aswell.

It should have been:

4s unlimited reflect for any projectile fired from more than 15m away.

It would have retained unique functionality against ranged spammers.
It would have opened up possibilities to fight back for targets the DK was attacking.
Everyone would have been happy - except for the ppl that want a braindead hardcounter in the game.

Derra · October 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I will said it in simple words.

Your arguements are bvllsh1t. Do you know why?
Because Wings could receive a fatigue cost so that people like you would shut it. But that never happened. The ability was removed.

Do you know how i know a fatigue cost doesn´t work in that regard?

I play a sorc.
A sorc has access to a 100% absorb skill for 2.5s on a 4s fatigue timer (edit: it´s still op and when i saw that zos wants to increase the duration on this the first thing i did was post how stupid this is - because it´s a hardcounter and even with forced downtime it´s too strong).

You won´t kill a sorc that focuses on abusing that absorb on timer - except if you make that timer excessively punishing and long. At which point the ability eventually gets more useless than it is in its current state.

So tell me again how my arguments are malecowpoo

and don´t adress my actually somewhat constructive post regarding how the ability should have worked.

Luckylancer · October 2019

This is fine. %50 reduction is blocking. This treat is all about DKs that want their OP skill back.

GeorgeBlack · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I will said it in simple words.

Your arguements are bvllsh1t. Do you know why?
Because Wings could receive a fatigue cost so that people like you would shut it. But that never happened. The ability was removed.

Do you know how i know a fatigue cost doesn´t work in that regard?

I play a sorc.
A sorc has access to a 100% absorb skill for 2.5s on a 4s fatigue timer (edit: it´s still op and when i saw that zos wants to increase the duration on this the first thing i did was post how stupid this is - because it´s a hardcounter and even with forced downtime it´s too strong).

You won´t kill a sorc that focuses on abusing that absorb on timer - except if you make that timer excessively punishing and long. At which point the ability eventually gets more useless than it is in its current state.

So tell me again how my arguments are malecowpoo and don´t adress my actually somewhat constructive post regarding how the ability should have worked.

I dont mind what feature you would use to make it work. At the time wrote it I didnt expect you to jump in. I was aiming someone else.

It should be evident that my issue is how the ability was destroyed before trying to nerf it.

irstarkey57 · October 2019

Agreed. Swallow soul should have been treated like force pulse. Boom no issue. Except for snipe spammers but wtf cares what they think anyway. Scum of eso and zero skill.

gepe87 · October 2019

Wings deserved the nerf. It made Magblade complete countered (and dont talk about melee magblade against a dk. Did you tried it?)
Altough im a total supporter about cancel pts DK nerfs

Xvorg · October 2019

Anyron wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.

Undeserved*

A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.

Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.

and what was that counter. force pulse? its like 2k dps. DK could be afk and still be able to overheal it with passive health regen.

absurd cost? like shields now? i am still able to spam it btw

*sigh* for a start another DK. Mag or Stam. Concealed weapon or suprise attack. Sweep or Jabs, hell even mag wardens can use cliffracer because it isn't reflected or stam wardens can push with sub assault oh and dont forget all the things necro has to ruin your day and Yes force pulse but frankly the point is to play around it not be able to win every single fight because its a RANGED COUNTER and well if you're a sorc thats just too bad but i guess being able to execute us with mage wrath on top of a 10% damage bonus from passives through it like everyone else with their executes is too hard. It must be awful being able to do whatever you want in PvP with almost no consequence. How terrible it must be for you.

Yeah you can spam shields and you'll live. Oh and you can also streak around us in circles before we can even reach you. Huh....horrible. if only you had a morph of streak which also allowed you to absorb incoming projectiles......huh. Wouldn't that be something as well?

DKs can spam wings for as long as they want but they're still dead before the change and after so whats your point?
and frankly if you die to a DK spamming wings you're just daft. Let them waste their mag, play for time then shut them down.

and before you start complaining about not high damage burst range counter to deal with it (because lets be real nobody at range wants it back because they disliked being countered);

1) The counter to ranged defense SHOULD BE CLOSE RANGE COMBAT.
2) Just because your counter at range isn't appealing doesn't mean its not effective to any degree and it doesnt mean you deserve some sort of burst ranged counter to a damned range counter that makes no sense.
3) It reflected 2 projectiles before being forced to recast, based on its cost alone it was way too expensive to spam hence why you would be dead shortly after spamming it. To which I think people are grossly under-quantifying the definition of spam.
4) You complain about spamming wings as if DK has some sort of offensive ranged capability beyond leap, are you seriously implying that we should use flames of oblivion exclusively vs 10k+ shields? Yeah no. Dont think so and no before you say it the difference between FOO and Crushing shock is that with crushing shock you can continuously engage at range, FOO is out of player control on what it hits and when the damage is dealt you have total autonomy with crushing shock. At least you can run away if things get to Dicey as a sorc. DKs? yeah we just take everything and die because our only defense against ranged stuns was deleted because sorcs be like "buhhh muh damage" and bow builds be like "ohhh but muh grossly overpowered draining shot". You know as if you're not allowed to be countered. So ridiculous.

we talk about ranged counters to previous wings. another DK isnt ranged. Concealed weapon or surprise attk isnt ranged. same for templars etc etc
i didnt know sorc execute is working at 100% health. i must spam it next time in duel (sarcasm)

1) you can spam gap closers. i cannot spam streak. you can always be in melee range. close range combat is still same - my ranged skills in melee distance were reflected too. and if class is designed to be ranged, you can hardly be melee

2) there was no REAL counter to wings. thats why it was changed in first place. it has its reasons. it isnt here just to spoil your play. try to duel something you cannot damage, something you cannot stun and what reflects your attacks. nice work, you found BALLANCED combat

3) 2 projectiles? are you sure?

4) why you should spam wings only in ranged combat when you can spam them in melee distance too? because it reflected ranged in melee range too? slot ANY melee weapoin in game and you can have gap closer. if your chain is broken, use other gap closers to get into melee. or should i just stand steadily while you can get your ass to me ?

ridiculous? yes you are. you think you can play your DK and everyone else has to adapt to you? pathetic

Seriously?

When you fire a projectile to an enemy, how it is supposed he has to react?

If someone fires a projectile to your glass cannon build, how do you react?

So, what's the problem with a class that has 0 access to ranged skills reflecting projectiles?

Consider this: according to all fans of projectiles, wings was a hard counter to all "ranged" builds, and it required 0 skill to make it work. For that reason wings were deleted.
Now we are in a different position, DK has no way to build for range and all of them are hard countered just by pressing S. Does that requires more skill?

Xvorg · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

Anyone who needs and advocates for 1 button 100% hardcounters in the game needs to take a step back and maybe approach the topic from a different perspective than "muh class got nurfed wuah wuah".

Anyone who ever fought an even half decent magDK with old wings on a projectile build will tell you it was absolutely stupid.

That said. I dislike what they did to wings aswell.

It should have been:

4s unlimited reflect for any projectile fired from more than 15m away.

It would have retained unique functionality against ranged spammers.
It would have opened up possibilities to fight back for targets the DK was attacking.
Everyone would have been happy - except for the ppl that want a braindead hardcounter in the game.

DKs are currently hard countered by pressing S. And you don't need more skill than a DK using wings to make it work.

The 15 mts was the best solution IMHO... even 20 mts was OK

VixxVexx · October 2019

I think wings should just absorb a limited number of projectiles instead of a 50% mitigation or reflecting them.
Additionally it should have a minimum range condition, something like absorb only when the projectiles are further than 12 meters away. This forces the casters a little closer, but still creates a gap/zone between the DKs melee range and the ranged caster. Actual counterplay.

Xvorg · October 2019

VixxVexx wrote: »

I think wings should just absorb a limited number of projectiles instead of a 50% mitigation or reflecting them.
Additionally it should have a minimum range condition, something like absorb only when the projectiles are further than 12 meters away. This forces the casters a little closer, but still creates a gap/zone between the DKs melee range and the ranged caster. Actual counterplay.

There are several ways to treat them. Mirroring shimmering shield is not one of them:

1- Reflect only skills fired 15/20 mts away
2- Reflected skills do 50/75% dmg (and it cannot crit)
3- Reflects the projectile but not the status (or CC)
4- Add a magicka/stamina cost for each projectile reflected

Those are simple solutions.

milllaurie · October 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

Yes and good magblades can keep up cloak 100% of the time.

Jodynn · October 2019

Reflective plate was a crutch, reflect mechanics are a crutch, reflect mechanics are annoying

Reflect mechanics are controversial
Reflect mechanics make people rage quit
Reflect mechanics drains the life out of my soul

I'm a magdk main btw, it was cheesy AF.

ThePedge · October 2019

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.

Undeserved*

A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.

Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.

Gonna link this comment every time someone complains about stealth cloak.

Trancestor · October 2019

milllaurie wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

Yes and good magblades can keep up cloak 100% of the time.

Detect pot, aoes, especially for a magdk it was really easy to counter cloak. I think cloak needs some nerfing as well but at least it has counters unlike old wings.

GeorgeBlack · October 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

Yes and good magblades can keep up cloak 100% of the time.

Detect pot, aoes, especially for a magdk it was really easy to counter cloak. I think cloak needs some nerfing as well but at least it has counters unlike old wings.

Wings up? Turtle up and use light atks.
Who is wasting magika now?
Git gud...

milllaurie · October 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Wings up? Turtle up and use light atks.
Who is wasting magika now?
Git gud...

Nah, he is gud.
Thing is I played both sides. And I can tell you wings were on similar level as cloak. Wings are totally useless against staminators. Wings could only shut down some pressure while cloak can reset a fight. On the other hand - cloak is only as good as the player using it. You can burn through your magicka trying to cloak in hurricane for example.
I don't understand why people wish all classes to be equally good against all other classes. It will be rock-paper-scissors no matter how hard you try. I don't go complaining about templars being op while running a dot stamblade. I will struggle with them.
Think about it - when making a build people think about nb counters: be it detect pots, volatile armor or some other aoe.
Building to have a counter for wings (dots, melee burst etc) makes sense to me.
I remember myself saying "cannot reflect my bleeds" when going for a dk

Jodynn · October 2019

milllaurie wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Wings up? Turtle up and use light atks.
Who is wasting magika now?
Git gud...

Nah, he is gud.
Thing is I played both sides. And I can tell you wings were on similar level as cloak. Wings are totally useless against staminators. Wings could only shut down some pressure while cloak can reset a fight. On the other hand - cloak is only as good as the player using it. You can burn through your magicka trying to cloak in hurricane for example.
I don't understand why people wish all classes to be equally good against all other classes. It will be rock-paper-scissors no matter how hard you try. I don't go complaining about templars being op while running a dot stamblade. I will struggle with them.
Think about it - when making a build people think about nb counters: be it detect pots, volatile armor or some other aoe.
Building to have a counter for wings (dots, melee burst etc) makes sense to me.
I remember myself saying "cannot reflect my bleeds" when going for a dk

I agree to an extent.

The difference is you can counter cloak with any build with reflect you have to completely change your setup and some classes are boned.

If you could change skills in combat I would be more open to it but then again now that entropy and soul trap are both dots magicka has access to that doesn't reflect honestly old wings aren't as bad now as they use to be.

Basically if you could swap skills in combat to change your build on who you are fighting so you don't have to slot dead weight skills, which goes both ways so if you are fighting a stamsorc you don't really need wings as throw blade is pretty dumb now and most use uppercut and snb or dw instead of bow.

Point is... Reflect is annoying and boring design BUT, given if you can change skills in combat AND if it doesn't reflect light attacks as an exception, I would be okay with bringing it back.

Miloscpolski · October 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

Good magnb will replay any dk with wings, if you complain about wings you don’t know how to play mag nb

sfpiesb14_ESO · October 2019

Wings is currently useless. I see almost no dk using it on live.

If they refuse to have the reflect please add 4s of Major Expedition to it. That would keep it more in like with abilities like sorcs streak/BoL.

Canadagreen · October 2019

Nerf wings - right decision.
Delete wings - bad decision.

We have 10 skill-slots and 50% projectile resist doesn't worth it. This game consists of dots and meele strikes.
It should be reworked into something PLAYABLE.

Bashev · October 2019

Derra wrote: »

4s unlimited reflect for any projectile fired from more than 15m away.

This proposal is really well thought. I support that.

Xvorg · October 2019

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Reflective plate was a crutch, reflect mechanics are a crutch, reflect mechanics are annoying

Reflect mechanics are controversial
Reflect mechanics make people rage quit
Reflect mechanics drains the life out of my soul

I'm a magdk main btw, it was cheesy AF.

Do you have any problem with projectiles that are fired to you? If not, then what's the complaint on wings?

Because reflected projectiles require the very same skill level to avoid dmg than non reflected projectiles.

In any case, a 1 button reflect requires more skill than pressing S and firing light attacks, at least you have to watch your resources and count to 4

Jodynn · October 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Reflective plate was a crutch, reflect mechanics are a crutch, reflect mechanics are annoying

Reflect mechanics are controversial
Reflect mechanics make people rage quit
Reflect mechanics drains the life out of my soul

I'm a magdk main btw, it was cheesy AF.

Do you have any problem with projectiles that are fired to you? If not, then what's the complaint on wings?

Because reflected projectiles require the very same skill level to avoid dmg than non reflected projectiles.

In any case, a 1 button reflect requires more skill than pressing S and firing light attacks, at least you have to watch your resources and count to 4

The complaint on wings is that if I attack you I shouldn't get hit with what I attack you with.
But read my later post to what I think is reasonable; however, I still hate reflect as a game mechanic in any game.

Joy_Division · October 2019

Dream of what once was and join Templars who want blinding flashes back, Sorcs who want the frags stun back, and NBs who'd like to sap tank again.

What exactly in ZOS's 5+ years of development history even gives the slightest hint that they would revert back what once a class defining feature after deciding to take it away.

Have fun with your new Stonefist.

Trancestor · October 2019

Miloscpolski wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

Good magnb will replay any dk with wings, if you complain about wings you don’t know how to play mag nb

lol maybe a bad dk like you would die vs magnb with reflect wings, not good dks thats for sure.

Xvorg · October 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

Miloscpolski wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

Good magnb will replay any dk with wings, if you complain about wings you don’t know how to play mag nb

lol maybe a bad dk like you would die vs magnb with reflect wings, not good dks thats for sure.

How is that a skill that never give any problems during 5 years become nerfed just because a couple of new players never learnt how to use the proper counters is something I'll never get.

The feeling is the same for the "nerf cloak" threads, a bunch a guys with l2p issues, who believe this is Overwatch.

The sad part is that the game has been dumbed down so drastically it's not a challenge anymore. You just need to slot the strongest spammable from range, the strongest self heal, the strongest CC from range, RAT and a Random class skill to proc passives and you can join the zerg spamming light attacks.

You don't even need to think about what you are doing as long as all your LAs land on the enemy, and 24 people LAs on one guy do a lot of dmg.

Congratulations.

dalishdelight · October 2019

I mained a magsorc before maining a magdk, and as a sorc i just wouldnt engage dks. I never saw the big problem with it. Theres more than enough targets in cyro to choose from. And as a magdk, engaging sorcs now is a pain, cause you cant reach them while they burst you down from across the map. Wings now aren't horrible, theyre just not as useful, by far. I rather use vampire mist and also take less damage from melee attacks than slot wings.

Stapes · October 2019

I was actually talking to a guildie a few nights ago around this. Plenty of good suggestions in here. Some of what i'm about to post is similar, but hopefully it helps with the direction I'd like to see make the skill be more useful and bring back some of what made the DK unique in its playstyle and dare I say it, "class identity".

Protective Scale
* Reduce cost to cast by around 15-25% (read further down before you blow your stack)
* Revert back to reflecting projectile attacks
* Add Magicka cost per projectile reflected (suggestion: maybe between 50-200?) reducing cost per rank 1-4
* increase duration for ranks 1 to 4 from 3 to 6 seconds

(Morph 1) Protective Plate
* Now absords projectiles instead of reflecting
* Returns Magicka (or possibly Health) per projectile absorbed
* Gain Minor Resolve(?) upon being hit by 2(or more) projectiles

(Morph 2) Dragon Fire Scales
* Increases damage of reflected projectile by 15%

The aim of the 2 morphs can be offensive and defensive which both will hopefully suit PvE as well as PvP. I loved reflect and have played as much with it as I have against it.

Now before anyone says it reflects everything, you should check your facts. Its only projectiles and only ever was. Crushing shock, radiant destruction and soul assault are the main examples for ranged skills. Not to mention AoE and melee attacks all obviously go through wings. Don't be so one dimensional with your build and only slot snipe or frags lol. A DK also needs to keep them up which should drain resources as the trade off. This is why I would be okay with a cost per projectile of some sort.

This also encourages counter play for DK's. @Gilliamtherogue @ZOS_BrianWheeler How about it guys?

kalunte · October 2019

forget about wings. thanks

they are fine now

Xvorg · October 2019

Stapes wrote: »

I was actually talking to a guildie a few nights ago around this. Plenty of good suggestions in here. Some of what i'm about to post is similar, but hopefully it helps with the direction I'd like to see make the skill be more useful and bring back some of what made the DK unique in its playstyle and dare I say it, "class identity".

Protective Scale
* Reduce cost to cast by around 15-25% (read further down before you blow your stack)
* Revert back to reflecting projectile attacks
* Add Magicka cost per projectile reflected (suggestion: maybe between 50-200?) reducing cost per rank 1-4
* increase duration for ranks 1 to 4 from 3 to 6 seconds

(Morph 1) Protective Plate
* Now absords projectiles instead of reflecting
* Returns Magicka (or possibly Health) per projectile absorbed
* Gain Minor Resolve(?) upon being hit by 2(or more) projectiles

(Morph 2) Dragon Fire Scales
* Increases damage of reflected projectile by 15%

The aim of the 2 morphs can be offensive and defensive which both will hopefully suit PvE as well as PvP. I loved reflect and have played as much with it as I have against it.

Now before anyone says it reflects everything, you should check your facts. Its only projectiles and only ever was. Crushing shock, radiant destruction and soul assault are the main examples for ranged skills. Not to mention AoE and melee attacks all obviously go through wings. Don't be so one dimensional with your build and only slot snipe or frags lol. A DK also needs to keep them up which should drain resources as the trade off. This is why I would be okay with a cost per projectile of some sort.

This also encourages counter play for DK's.

I like it