Maintenance for the week of September 8:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Reflective Plate. Why the change should be reverted. Comparison of DK treatment with other classes
-
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DanStartheFirst wrote: »DanStartheFirst wrote: »Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.
Have you ever played DK>? A class that has no ranged abilities other than poop rock and you think it having one ability that let it get close enough to do damage instead of just eating ranged abilities while it can't do anything. It was a class staple since release and they basically deleted the ability how about deleting cloak while you are at it. You seem like one of those people that just sits back and enjoys spamming snipe or hard casting crystal frags with no worries about doing so.
Have you every tried Empowering Chains? It'll really mess up a range spammers day.
only if you are able to close the 20 mts gap between the snipe spammer and you. And don't mention those guys spamming snipe from up the wall's keep, those were the worst.
I remember when extended chains allowed you to pull them of the walls
*pew pew spamming snipe on wall "you cant touch me" Proceeds to chain pull them off of wall like "get over here"* Those were the best times, or even take flight onto them even on wall, hehe dk be dragon in disguise.
It was funSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DanStartheFirst wrote: »Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.
Have you ever played DK>? A class that has no ranged abilities other than poop rock and you think it having one ability that let it get close enough to do damage instead of just eating ranged abilities while it can't do anything. It was a class staple since release and they basically deleted the ability how about deleting cloak while you are at it. You seem like one of those people that just sits back and enjoys spamming snipe or hard casting crystal frags with no worries about doing so.
Have you every tried Empowering Chains? It'll really mess up a range spammers day.
only if you are able to close the 20 mts gap between the snipe spammer and you. And don't mention those guys spamming snipe from up the wall's keep, those were the worst.
I remember when extended chains allowed you to pull them of the walls
How sad is it that I miss the days when mDK had bad heals, no mobility and S&B was virtually mandatory? I complained a lot about it but I felt like a DRAGON KNIGHT, not an inferior sorc. All our cool toys are gone.
But my sorcs also miss frags stunning (yes it was OP) and no loss of momentum on Streak (not OP). DKs aren't the only one who have lost fun toys.
I wish I had the stun from frags back too. Some of the best moments in my hybrid Sorc were when I weaved bow LA with fury to proc frags, and then crit rushing the guy down with my beloved Riven Hourglass (by far, the best name for an Item in all ESO)Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If refelct is added, the projectile being reflected should do 50% damage to the DK and rest 50% to the caster (which can be dodged or blocked to avoid).
The issue with wings was it gave the DK 100% damage mitigation to projectiles.
This is a nerf. What happened to the ability was complete destruction, and Zos never gave us a PTS to talk about it.
That change came out of NOWHERE.
There was very few topics saying WINGS OP compared to so many other nerf calls.Edited by GeorgeBlack on September 26, 2019 6:59AM1 -
Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭Trancestor wrote: »Magplar main, the class with the best kit to deal with reflectable wings (and cloak)
A - the only class skill that directly counters cloak is a Nightblade skill.
B - you backasswardly stumbled on exactly my point: there are counters for wings and there are counters for jabs and counters for the things that counter jabs. But now there's no counters for pew-pew from range so pretty soon they'll nerf that and everybody will cry and moan when, in reality, there should just be good counters for everything but no class should have access to all of them. That's what makes classes have identity, that's what makes build choices matter, that's what makes teamwork vital, that's what makes the game more than point/click/pull/trigger.
I'm out.1 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »The whole issue with the wings could be solved with a fatigue cost for those saying that it was shutting down their call of duty moment.
1) It wasn't nerfed like ZOS does with other classes. It was deleted
2)Unique feature turned to a 6s buff. Ty for the animation.
3)"Shutting down Ranged enemies". Really?
4)Was wings part of Meta?
5) Non DK, able players. What have they said?
6) Weird DK changes that are passed on as buffs.
7) I'm I playing a Dragon Knight or a Paladin? Stop it with the DK healer additions.
1) Reflective Plate was totally deleted. It wasn't changed. Eso has way to many abilities that are just timers that improve stats. This ability with its beautiful animation has become just that. Another timer. It was an action, based on observation and though. DKs saw that CC or snipe coming and made the call to turn the tables. And enemies would see them bring out those terrifying wings.
2) Only two more classes have very unique abilities. The one is Nightblade that can use Cloak and Shade. Both of them have suffered nerfs but ZOS never dared to outright delete their function and change them to some buff ability with a timer to improve stats.
a) Imagine if Shade was changed to reduce melee dmg for 6s for 3700 magika. "Oh you casted a shadow and you take less dmg because enemies are confused". How insulting that would be to the old Elder Scrolls hooded bow bearer assassin, master of shadows.
b)Imagine if cloak was deleted completelly and was replaced by the new Dark Cloak that heals.
And then Sorcerer, a class that has access to all the tools available in this game.
a)Magsorc makes the most out of magika shields than any other class. I have said enough about the shields but I will bring back the point that in the course of nerfing these abilities ZOS couldn't dare to outright reduce their effectiveness, much less that simply delete and replace them with another mechanic. They are still here, doing what they used to, no matter if the equations of the coding are different. Still the same ability that helps sorcerers turtle and spam light atks and wait for their timed burst to happen.
b)sorcerers have the best mobility inn the game. Bolt ESC was nerfed, the biggest being the fatique feature. But it wasn't straight out deleted and replaced by some lame generic mechanic.
"oh you casted Bolt ESC. Instead of teleporting, you gain Minor expedition for 6s for the cost of 3700, but we will spare you the fatique. Be thankful
Read this @ZOS_BrianWheeler. Read in 2) how you treated DK and how with this logic you should treat NB and sorc. But then your game would be completelly tasteless. I wonder, as a game developer how could you delete a cool mechanic like Reflective Plate for a 6s buff.
3) "Wings was shutting down ranged opponents" Really? MagDKs and even more stamDKs had unlimited magika to cast all their other abilities including Reflective Plate every second COD. Really?
Let's get serious. Wings was not shutting you down. Good DKs outplayed you with the use of Wings. If only when you saw the Wings flapping and you though, you know what? I can't punch a knife. If the DK is using Wings, I'll just go defensive for the duration, making the DK waste magika and a COD. I can heal, I buff up, I can cast shields, I can place Dots, I can use gap closer and make that poor meele DK come after me.
Wings was shutting down mindless pew pew. And for what? 4 projectiles for a few seconds?
Really? Was wings shutting down ALL ranged opponents? Give me a break and stop nerfing my class....
4) StamDKS didn't had the magika to "shut down ranged opponents". Wings wasn't even slotted in the Meta stamDK that was using SnB/2h 7th Fury BS, spamming LA/Ransack/Bash LA/Ransack/Bash, dots and buffs until Fury was carrying them to the moment they could 1shoot enemies.
As for magDKs, oh boy.... they were awsome once upon a time. You took away inhale from them. The battlegrounds were full of Dragonknight Standards. Nerfed all the passives.
Did you really had to take away Wings from the class before trying to use fatigue mechanic so that they "can't spam Wings" with their 'endless' magika?
5) A lot of petty ppl called on DKs to l2p and adapt. Even since the change I have seen countless non DK players defend Reflective Plate and describe it as a cool feature of ESO PvP. They were saying that they would overcome wing spamming DKs and outplay them. Lots of names that annoy me on many other topics, but by not maining a DK and defending this ability, they made me say "I'll be damned. This ** actually sees the beauty of an iconic feature. Very nice".
6) Show some understanding for the DK class. Magsorc lost major sorcery from Power Surge and within an update they got Critical Surge with major sorcery, making it extremelly easy to heal. Heal HP under those shields that you ZOS never dared to outright nerf.
Why do we have to complain for years about:
Fiery Breath dealing crap dmg and not hitting targets. (We got this dot ability that adds a debuff to work as spammable? You played with cost I don't know how many times?)
Igneous Weapons offering NOTHING for stamDKs
Passives being watered down and useless since they have a very narrow field of influence.
And you slap us with some weird abilities for... DK healers. StamDK ranged spammable. Seething Fury that offers WD but is attached to a.... magika spammable? A Dot that is half spammable and half DoT in Venomous Claw.
You use all those Dev Comments for all those weird additions you pass off as buffs, only to revert the changes to the next dlc with new reasoning in dev comments.
7) Why does my DK feel more like a Paladin? Why do I have a ball of fire healing me or a friend, a throwing rock dealing dmg, stun, and healing me and friends.
Why does a magnetic field of rocks around my character increase my Healing power. What does any of this has to do with a dragon or a knight?
And why do I keep getting nerf as a fighter but I keep getting weird healing buffs?
DKs needs Battle roar and ulty gen to sustain. I dont want to be a Paladin.
Revert the change to Reflective Plate so that we can move forward and make changes based on what a DK should be and not just random things healing us and making us take less dmg from ranged atks.
1) wings reflecting ccs were reason why it was strong. it was like CC immunity always up against ranged builds
3) why shouldnt magDK be able to cast wings every 4 seconds while sorcerer hardened ward is just as expensive now and they still keep it up?
4) if wings "wasn't even slotted in the Meta stamDK that was using SnB/2h 7th Fury BS, spamming LA/Ransack/Bash LA/Ransack/Bash, dots and buffs until Fury was carrying them to the moment they could 1shoot enemies." why it should even bother you that they nerfed it?
5) skilled ranged player maybe could kill some noob novice DK, but skilled vs skilled? it was just certain death for ranged, or endless fight
btw, if shields are as strong as you said, just use LA Dampen magic. it is just as strong as Hardened ward now.
and yes, it completely destroyed ranged playstyle. it was also working on ranged skills in melee distance.
Edited by Anyron on September 26, 2019 8:40AM5 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.
Undeserved*
A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.
Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.
and what was that counter. force pulse? its like 2k dps. DK could be afk and still be able to overheal it with passive health regen.
absurd cost? like shields now? i am still able to spam it btw2 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »Is the new eclipse shutting down styles of play!!!?!
at least it doesnt reflect damage1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Same as any gapcloser, chains are no exception here, but somehow only DKs whine about "ranged OP", the rest of us simply use major expedition, sprint or gapclosers whenever we can. Ranged classes now "feel" OP for DKs because they had ezmode when fighting them, now when you still have it easier than the rest of us (almost double major protection vs ranged) you still complain. Yeah having 100% ranged damage immunity and on top of that reflecting all of the ranged damage back to the caster is perfectly balanced... LOL.
You want it back? Fine. No snare removal. It reflects up to 4 projectiles total. It last 4s again and when casted again within 6s it costs 50% more. We have a deal?Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭juhislihis19 wrote: »Trancestor wrote: »You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.
But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!
It´s not like you were ever going to kill a magDK that kept wings up with a sorc and just curse as dmg either...<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Same as any gapcloser, chains are no exception here, but somehow only DKs whine about "ranged OP", the rest of us simply use major expedition, sprint or gapclosers whenever we can. Ranged classes now "feel" OP for DKs because they had ezmode when fighting them, now when you still have it easier than the rest of us (almost double major protection vs ranged) you still complain. Yeah having 100% ranged damage immunity and on top of that reflecting all of the ranged damage back to the caster is perfectly balanced... LOL.
You want it back? Fine. No snare removal. It reflects up to 4 projectiles total. It last 4s again and when casted again within 6s it costs 50% more. We have a deal?
Whenever you say 100% dmg immunity on ranged attacks, a baby dragon cries.
I wish I could reflect meteors, or Soul assault, or Bow ulti. Not to mention curse, wrath, PoTL, Eclipse, JB, arrow spray, volley, shards, Force shock, ele ring, mark, elemental rage, soul trap (that could have been a very counter to wings this patch), just to name a few.
Wings reflected exactly 13 skills in all the game. Instead of fixing strife or cripple from NBs (considering agony was the unreflectable ranged attack that bypassed wings), they decided to nerf a skill on a class that has ZERO ranged attacks and whose toolkit is focused on melee, and that because insisted on mindlessly spamming one of those 13 skills when facing a NB.
It's so stupid as a templar spamming sweeps against a streaking sorc and then complaining about streak mobility. Wouldn't you tell him "use javelin, D.ass"?Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique6 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Same as any gapcloser, chains are no exception here, but somehow only DKs whine about "ranged OP", the rest of us simply use major expedition, sprint or gapclosers whenever we can. Ranged classes now "feel" OP for DKs because they had ezmode when fighting them, now when you still have it easier than the rest of us (almost double major protection vs ranged) you still complain. Yeah having 100% ranged damage immunity and on top of that reflecting all of the ranged damage back to the caster is perfectly balanced... LOL.
You want it back? Fine. No snare removal. It reflects up to 4 projectiles total. It last 4s again and when casted again within 6s it costs 50% more. We have a deal?
Whenever you say 100% dmg immunity on ranged attacks, a baby dragon cries.
I wish I could reflect meteors, or Soul assault, or Bow ulti. Not to mention curse, wrath, PoTL, Eclipse, JB, arrow spray, volley, shards, Force shock, ele ring, mark, elemental rage, soul trap (that could have been a very counter to wings this patch), just to name a few.
Wings reflected exactly 13 skills in all the game. Instead of fixing strife or cripple from NBs (considering agony was the unreflectable ranged attack that bypassed wings), they decided to nerf a skill on a class that has ZERO ranged attacks and whose toolkit is focused on melee, and that because insisted on mindlessly spamming one of those 13 skills when facing a NB.
It's so stupid as a templar spamming sweeps against a streaking sorc and then complaining about streak mobility. Wouldn't you tell him "use javelin, D.ass"?
Yeah smarta... You dare to mention ults as a counter to regular skill? Because the rest of mentioned skills (AoEs that nobody uses in duels, smallscale) was used only by zergs or have huge time to load like curse or POTL which still needs damage to be dealt to work. Wrath? Lol first you need to take that DK below 20% hp, good look on that when he reflects everything except of your curse which hits every 3s and crushing shock which tickles him. And the most OP part of wings was reflecting LA, which lead to huge pressure loss, and somehow magicka still doesn't have melee weapon. Bad DKs whine here because they can't handle ranged damage like the rest of the world, eventhough they still have most powerful skill to mitigate it.
And I'd say to use toppling charge instead of javelin vs that sorc, as a Templar you want to be close to your prey, not to knock it back from you.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Same as any gapcloser, chains are no exception here, but somehow only DKs whine about "ranged OP", the rest of us simply use major expedition, sprint or gapclosers whenever we can. Ranged classes now "feel" OP for DKs because they had ezmode when fighting them, now when you still have it easier than the rest of us (almost double major protection vs ranged) you still complain. Yeah having 100% ranged damage immunity and on top of that reflecting all of the ranged damage back to the caster is perfectly balanced... LOL.
You want it back? Fine. No snare removal. It reflects up to 4 projectiles total. It last 4s again and when casted again within 6s it costs 50% more. We have a deal?
Whenever you say 100% dmg immunity on ranged attacks, a baby dragon cries.
I wish I could reflect meteors, or Soul assault, or Bow ulti. Not to mention curse, wrath, PoTL, Eclipse, JB, arrow spray, volley, shards, Force shock, ele ring, mark, elemental rage, soul trap (that could have been a very counter to wings this patch), just to name a few.
Wings reflected exactly 13 skills in all the game. Instead of fixing strife or cripple from NBs (considering agony was the unreflectable ranged attack that bypassed wings), they decided to nerf a skill on a class that has ZERO ranged attacks and whose toolkit is focused on melee, and that because insisted on mindlessly spamming one of those 13 skills when facing a NB.
It's so stupid as a templar spamming sweeps against a streaking sorc and then complaining about streak mobility. Wouldn't you tell him "use javelin, D.ass"?
Yeah smarta... You dare to mention ults as a counter to regular skill? Because the rest of mentioned skills (AoEs that nobody uses in duels, smallscale) was used only by zergs or have huge time to load like curse or POTL which still needs damage to be dealt to work. Wrath? Lol first you need to take that DK below 20% hp, good look on that when he reflects everything except of your curse which hits every 3s and crushing shock which tickles him. And the most OP part of wings was reflecting LA, which lead to huge pressure loss, and somehow magicka still doesn't have melee weapon. Bad DKs whine here because they can't handle ranged damage like the rest of the world, eventhough they still have most powerful skill to mitigate it.
And I'd say to use toppling charge instead of javelin vs that sorc, as a Templar you want to be close to your prey, not to knock it back from you.
That in particular cannot be a fault of wings, that's a fault on the way the game is designed. ZoS decided that nukes should be projectile skills. ZoS decided that DKs shouldn't have access to any ranged skills (with the exception of the meme rock). ZoS decided to take away the only defense dks had against ranged attacks, without giving a damn about their chances on range. Now ZoS is even taking away meme rock.
Do you think any DK is happy with that? Do you think nerfing wings was a good decision? Of course, your ranged build "can play" (I'm quite sure you fare more than acceptable against any other class), but what happens with the guys playing DKs? How in the blue hell does he counter the sniper spamming lethal arrow 41 mts away, or above the keep walls?
So wings were a counter to "ranged builds" (more the mindlessly projectile spammers, but lets say "range")... now range counters an entire class. Balance? Better erase the class.
P.S. If you haven't read the class tootips, theres no *** passive that increases range dmg. No DK... not even the best one is going to defeat an average level sorc/templar/NB/Warden/Necro trading ranged attacks because the class has NOTHING that increase dmg from range. If you understand maths, then you should know why.Edited by Xvorg on September 28, 2019 2:24AMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique2 -
zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »As I said many times before. Wings had no counter. No slotting one non reflectable skill is not a counter, slotting more is killing your build just to counter one skill of a one class (unlike with cloak where you don't even have to slot any additional skills, just use det potion like I do).
I voted for making wings to reflect 3 projectiles per user not per cast as it used to be only at range greater than 10m, unfortunately DKs wanted to preserve their I win button vs ranged classes, so they lost their crutch.
I still think that change proposed above would be more balanced and more fun for DKs (big middle finger to snipe spammers and the rest cowards that are afraid to get closer) and possibility for fair fights vs enemies that don't afraid to brawl in close range.
Don’t most ranged classes have the advantage though when the dk doesn’t use wings? So how exactly is it a “I win button”
Lol seriously. It was I win button because of what you wrote. Eventhough ranged had a bit of advantage vs DKs that didn't used gapcloser just because [insert some excuse], when DK started to spam wings it was pointless to fight them despite they were trash players. This skill was carrying bad players for far to long.
Insert cloak, insert purge, insert shimmering shield, and insert matriarch pet heal. All of those examples are skills that potentially carry bad players. The similarity is all are defensive just like wings in the sense that you should know when and when not to engage your target.4 -
DanStartheFirst✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »zParallaxz wrote: »As I said many times before. Wings had no counter. No slotting one non reflectable skill is not a counter, slotting more is killing your build just to counter one skill of a one class (unlike with cloak where you don't even have to slot any additional skills, just use det potion like I do).
I voted for making wings to reflect 3 projectiles per user not per cast as it used to be only at range greater than 10m, unfortunately DKs wanted to preserve their I win button vs ranged classes, so they lost their crutch.
I still think that change proposed above would be more balanced and more fun for DKs (big middle finger to snipe spammers and the rest cowards that are afraid to get closer) and possibility for fair fights vs enemies that don't afraid to brawl in close range.
Don’t most ranged classes have the advantage though when the dk doesn’t use wings? So how exactly is it a “I win button”
Lol seriously. It was I win button because of what you wrote. Eventhough ranged had a bit of advantage vs DKs that didn't used gapcloser just because [insert some excuse], when DK started to spam wings it was pointless to fight them despite they were trash players. This skill was carrying bad players for far to long.
Insert cloak, insert purge, insert shimmering shield, and insert matriarch pet heal. All of those examples are skills that potentially carry bad players. The similarity is all are defensive just like wings in the sense that you should know when and when not to engage your target.
Now delete any of those mentioned abilities and see how people that play those classes exclusively feel. Yes there is other stuff to use and those abilities aren't required but if you are someone that has been using that ability since release then you feel it just like them deleting wings just gotta be tankier.5 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »zParallaxz wrote: »As I said many times before. Wings had no counter. No slotting one non reflectable skill is not a counter, slotting more is killing your build just to counter one skill of a one class (unlike with cloak where you don't even have to slot any additional skills, just use det potion like I do).
I voted for making wings to reflect 3 projectiles per user not per cast as it used to be only at range greater than 10m, unfortunately DKs wanted to preserve their I win button vs ranged classes, so they lost their crutch.
I still think that change proposed above would be more balanced and more fun for DKs (big middle finger to snipe spammers and the rest cowards that are afraid to get closer) and possibility for fair fights vs enemies that don't afraid to brawl in close range.
Don’t most ranged classes have the advantage though when the dk doesn’t use wings? So how exactly is it a “I win button”
Lol seriously. It was I win button because of what you wrote. Eventhough ranged had a bit of advantage vs DKs that didn't used gapcloser just because [insert some excuse], when DK started to spam wings it was pointless to fight them despite they were trash players. This skill was carrying bad players for far to long.
Insert cloak, insert purge, insert shimmering shield, and insert matriarch pet heal. All of those examples are skills that potentially carry bad players. The similarity is all are defensive just like wings in the sense that you should know when and when not to engage your target.
The funny thing is that using those skills makes you a bad player, while good players should be all about attacking whenever they want, using the skills they want to use and without caring about the situation. Just mindless "machine gun" spam.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique4 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.
Undeserved*
A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.
Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.
and what was that counter. force pulse? its like 2k dps. DK could be afk and still be able to overheal it with passive health regen.
absurd cost? like shields now? i am still able to spam it btw
*sigh* for a start another DK. Mag or Stam. Concealed weapon or suprise attack. Sweep or Jabs, hell even mag wardens can use cliffracer because it isn't reflected or stam wardens can push with sub assault oh and dont forget all the things necro has to ruin your day and Yes force pulse but frankly the point is to play around it not be able to win every single fight because its a RANGED COUNTER and well if you're a sorc thats just too bad but i guess being able to execute us with mage wrath on top of a 10% damage bonus from passives through it like everyone else with their executes is too hard. It must be awful being able to do whatever you want in PvP with almost no consequence. How terrible it must be for you.
Yeah you can spam shields and you'll live. Oh and you can also streak around us in circles before we can even reach you. Huh....horrible. if only you had a morph of streak which also allowed you to absorb incoming projectiles......huh. Wouldn't that be something as well?
DKs can spam wings for as long as they want but they're still dead before the change and after so whats your point?
and frankly if you die to a DK spamming wings you're just daft. Let them waste their mag, play for time then shut them down.
and before you start complaining about not high damage burst range counter to deal with it (because lets be real nobody at range wants it back because they disliked being countered);
1) The counter to ranged defense SHOULD BE CLOSE RANGE COMBAT.
2) Just because your counter at range isn't appealing doesn't mean its not effective to any degree and it doesnt mean you deserve some sort of burst ranged counter to a damned range counter that makes no sense.
3) It reflected 2 projectiles before being forced to recast, based on its cost alone it was way too expensive to spam hence why you would be dead shortly after spamming it. To which I think people are grossly under-quantifying the definition of spam.
4) You complain about spamming wings as if DK has some sort of offensive ranged capability beyond leap, are you seriously implying that we should use flames of oblivion exclusively vs 10k+ shields? Yeah no. Dont think so and no before you say it the difference between FOO and Crushing shock is that with crushing shock you can continuously engage at range, FOO is out of player control on what it hits and when the damage is dealt you have total autonomy with crushing shock. At least you can run away if things get to Dicey as a sorc. DKs? yeah we just take everything and die because our only defense against ranged stuns was deleted because sorcs be like "buhhh muh damage" and bow builds be like "ohhh but muh grossly overpowered draining shot". You know as if you're not allowed to be countered. So ridiculous.Edited by xeNNNNN on September 28, 2019 5:34AMAh, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.4 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love when people post about wings and pretend that when fighting many builds that were ranged, it was not op. I only used wings for a few months and every time I felt it was too cheesy and made combat boring.
There was no sorc or NB I couldn't just cast wings against and use coag/green dragon blood to outheal damage on my stam and mag DK, and I did in fact keep it up 100% of the time it mattered (and when I didn't there was sheild ult), despite the noise on the forums claiming it was not possible.
But that was "skillful," game play? Spam wings, get ult up, wait until the opponent had no stam to roll or had to hide, close the distance + spam talons, deep breath, whip and leap. Didn't it also stun if one projectile hit? Worked every time.
Without wings even slotted on DK now I do not have any issues with ranged builds, to slot it as its old form in the current patch I can easily see how OP and broken it would be vs ranged builds, even on the PTS. Not to mention how worthless it would be vs. melee builds - you know the ones that actually pose a real threat this patch and the next one.
It's almost as if people on these forums have to find a new cheese every time their old one melts. I will oppose it every time I see it, and yes I am a stam and mag DK main, but I am not about to come on the forums and pretend something that got nerfed because it was OP is not IMO.
EDIT: I saw someone say if any DK is happy with the change. Yeah me, because it helped me get good and stop crunching on a single skill. That skill getting nerfed helped me realize real fast that if I think a skill is broken, its going to get nerfed eventually. Not participating in the FOTM and slotting skills that are OP in a patch has been a great move every time.Edited by Kadoin on September 28, 2019 10:38AM3 -
MajBludd✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is exactly how most skills got nerfed through people refusing to get better, or find a way to win. Instead they whined and asked Daddy zos to help them out.2 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love when people post about wings and pretend that when fighting many builds that were ranged, it was not op. I only used wings for a few months and every time I felt it was too cheesy and made combat boring.
There was no sorc or NB I couldn't just cast wings against and use coag/green dragon blood to outheal damage on my stam and mag DK, and I did in fact keep it up 100% of the time it mattered (and when I didn't there was sheild ult), despite the noise on the forums claiming it was not possible.
But that was "skillful," game play? Spam wings, get ult up, wait until the opponent had no stam to roll or had to hide, close the distance + spam talons, deep breath, whip and leap. Didn't it also stun if one projectile hit? Worked every time.
Without wings even slotted on DK now I do not have any issues with ranged builds, to slot it as its old form in the current patch I can easily see how OP and broken it would be vs ranged builds, even on the PTS. Not to mention how worthless it would be vs. melee builds - you know the ones that actually pose a real threat this patch and the next one.
It's almost as if people on these forums have to find a new cheese every time their old one melts. I will oppose it every time I see it, and yes I am a stam and mag DK main, but I am not about to come on the forums and pretend something that got nerfed because it was OP is not IMO.
EDIT: I saw someone say if any DK is happy with the change. Yeah me, because it helped me get good and stop crunching on a single skill. That skill getting nerfed helped me realize real fast that if I think a skill is broken, its going to get nerfed eventually. Not participating in the FOTM and slotting skills that are OP in a patch has been a great move every time.
You pretent not to understand that a fatigue added cost would protect you from perma wing spam.
The same treatment magsorc got on their Bolt of ESC. Stamsorc can use it as well.
DKs got treated unfairly. The class lost a mechanism.
Give it a rest. You are happy that others cant enjoy their main class that had a beautiful ability. Everybody knows thats your bottom of line..
Edited by GeorgeBlack on September 28, 2019 11:29AM5 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I love when people post about wings and pretend that when fighting many builds that were ranged, it was not op. I only used wings for a few months and every time I felt it was too cheesy and made combat boring.
There was no sorc or NB I couldn't just cast wings against and use coag/green dragon blood to outheal damage on my stam and mag DK, and I did in fact keep it up 100% of the time it mattered (and when I didn't there was sheild ult), despite the noise on the forums claiming it was not possible.
But that was "skillful," game play? Spam wings, get ult up, wait until the opponent had no stam to roll or had to hide, close the distance + spam talons, deep breath, whip and leap. Didn't it also stun if one projectile hit? Worked every time.
Without wings even slotted on DK now I do not have any issues with ranged builds, to slot it as its old form in the current patch I can easily see how OP and broken it would be vs ranged builds, even on the PTS. Not to mention how worthless it would be vs. melee builds - you know the ones that actually pose a real threat this patch and the next one.
It's almost as if people on these forums have to find a new cheese every time their old one melts. I will oppose it every time I see it, and yes I am a stam and mag DK main, but I am not about to come on the forums and pretend something that got nerfed because it was OP is not IMO.
EDIT: I saw someone say if any DK is happy with the change. Yeah me, because it helped me get good and stop crunching on a single skill. That skill getting nerfed helped me realize real fast that if I think a skill is broken, its going to get nerfed eventually. Not participating in the FOTM and slotting skills that are OP in a patch has been a great move every time.
You pretent not to understand that a fatigue added cost would protect you from perma wing spam.
The same treatment magsorc got on their Bolt of ESC. Stamsorc can use it as well.
DKs got treated unfairly. The class lost a mechanism.
Give it a rest. You are happy that others cant enjoy their main class that had a beautiful ability. Everybody knows thats your bottom of line..
I didn't know a single skill was needed to enjoy a class, but thanks. I'm learning a lot on the PTS section of the forums.1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I love when people post about wings and pretend that when fighting many builds that were ranged, it was not op. I only used wings for a few months and every time I felt it was too cheesy and made combat boring.
There was no sorc or NB I couldn't just cast wings against and use coag/green dragon blood to outheal damage on my stam and mag DK, and I did in fact keep it up 100% of the time it mattered (and when I didn't there was sheild ult), despite the noise on the forums claiming it was not possible.
But that was "skillful," game play? Spam wings, get ult up, wait until the opponent had no stam to roll or had to hide, close the distance + spam talons, deep breath, whip and leap. Didn't it also stun if one projectile hit? Worked every time.
Without wings even slotted on DK now I do not have any issues with ranged builds, to slot it as its old form in the current patch I can easily see how OP and broken it would be vs ranged builds, even on the PTS. Not to mention how worthless it would be vs. melee builds - you know the ones that actually pose a real threat this patch and the next one.
It's almost as if people on these forums have to find a new cheese every time their old one melts. I will oppose it every time I see it, and yes I am a stam and mag DK main, but I am not about to come on the forums and pretend something that got nerfed because it was OP is not IMO.
EDIT: I saw someone say if any DK is happy with the change. Yeah me, because it helped me get good and stop crunching on a single skill. That skill getting nerfed helped me realize real fast that if I think a skill is broken, its going to get nerfed eventually. Not participating in the FOTM and slotting skills that are OP in a patch has been a great move every time.
You pretent not to understand that a fatigue added cost would protect you from perma wing spam.
The same treatment magsorc got on their Bolt of ESC. Stamsorc can use it as well.
DKs got treated unfairly. The class lost a mechanism.
Give it a rest. You are happy that others cant enjoy their main class that had a beautiful ability. Everybody knows thats your bottom of line..
I didn't know a single skill was needed to enjoy a class, but thanks. I'm learning a lot on the PTS section of the forums.
You still avoid the real point.
You are happy the ability was deleted.
You would have been just fine if it had an added fatigue cost.
You are not fooling anybody1 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.
Undeserved*
A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.
Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.
and what was that counter. force pulse? its like 2k dps. DK could be afk and still be able to overheal it with passive health regen.
absurd cost? like shields now? i am still able to spam it btw
*sigh* for a start another DK. Mag or Stam. Concealed weapon or suprise attack. Sweep or Jabs, hell even mag wardens can use cliffracer because it isn't reflected or stam wardens can push with sub assault oh and dont forget all the things necro has to ruin your day and Yes force pulse but frankly the point is to play around it not be able to win every single fight because its a RANGED COUNTER and well if you're a sorc thats just too bad but i guess being able to execute us with mage wrath on top of a 10% damage bonus from passives through it like everyone else with their executes is too hard. It must be awful being able to do whatever you want in PvP with almost no consequence. How terrible it must be for you.
Yeah you can spam shields and you'll live. Oh and you can also streak around us in circles before we can even reach you. Huh....horrible. if only you had a morph of streak which also allowed you to absorb incoming projectiles......huh. Wouldn't that be something as well?
DKs can spam wings for as long as they want but they're still dead before the change and after so whats your point?
and frankly if you die to a DK spamming wings you're just daft. Let them waste their mag, play for time then shut them down.
and before you start complaining about not high damage burst range counter to deal with it (because lets be real nobody at range wants it back because they disliked being countered);
1) The counter to ranged defense SHOULD BE CLOSE RANGE COMBAT.
2) Just because your counter at range isn't appealing doesn't mean its not effective to any degree and it doesnt mean you deserve some sort of burst ranged counter to a damned range counter that makes no sense.
3) It reflected 2 projectiles before being forced to recast, based on its cost alone it was way too expensive to spam hence why you would be dead shortly after spamming it. To which I think people are grossly under-quantifying the definition of spam.
4) You complain about spamming wings as if DK has some sort of offensive ranged capability beyond leap, are you seriously implying that we should use flames of oblivion exclusively vs 10k+ shields? Yeah no. Dont think so and no before you say it the difference between FOO and Crushing shock is that with crushing shock you can continuously engage at range, FOO is out of player control on what it hits and when the damage is dealt you have total autonomy with crushing shock. At least you can run away if things get to Dicey as a sorc. DKs? yeah we just take everything and die because our only defense against ranged stuns was deleted because sorcs be like "buhhh muh damage" and bow builds be like "ohhh but muh grossly overpowered draining shot". You know as if you're not allowed to be countered. So ridiculous.
we talk about ranged counters to previous wings. another DK isnt ranged. Concealed weapon or surprise attk isnt ranged. same for templars etc etc
i didnt know sorc execute is working at 100% health. i must spam it next time in duel (sarcasm)
1) you can spam gap closers. i cannot spam streak. you can always be in melee range. close range combat is still same - my ranged skills in melee distance were reflected too. and if class is designed to be ranged, you can hardly be melee
2) there was no REAL counter to wings. thats why it was changed in first place. it has its reasons. it isnt here just to spoil your play. try to duel something you cannot damage, something you cannot stun and what reflects your attacks. nice work, you found BALLANCED combat
3) 2 projectiles? are you sure?
4) why you should spam wings only in ranged combat when you can spam them in melee distance too? because it reflected ranged in melee range too? slot ANY melee weapoin in game and you can have gap closer. if your chain is broken, use other gap closers to get into melee. or should i just stand steadily while you can get your ass to me ?
ridiculous? yes you are. you think you can play your DK and everyone else has to adapt to you? patheticEdited by Anyron on October 1, 2019 10:41AM2 -
MCBIZZLE300✭✭✭✭✭i dont play mag dk, never have but reflective plate gave the class identity. you knew, if you fired a projectile at them there was a chance it was coming back. That was a good thing for the game, risk vs reward.6 -
Dogzey✭✭✭I just don't understand how streak and cloak are okay to get out of fights but the only bit of utility the slowest class in the game has gets completely removed.PS4 EU [810CP] - (Clairvoyance)
PvE High Elf Mag DK - Irelia Dragneel (Voice of Reason) (Dro-m'Athra Destroyer)
PvE Orc Stam DK - Minato Uzamaki
PvE Breton Templar - Ashura Namikaze (Voice of Reason)
PvE Altmer Magcro - Zeref Dragneel
PvE Orc Stamcro - Saphira Dragonsbane (Dro-m'Athra Destroyer)
PvE Orc Stam Sorc - Laxus Dreyar
PvE Imperial DK Tank- Tartarus the Abyss
PvE Dumner Magblade - Apex the Destroyer (Flawless Conqueror)
PvE/PVP Orc Stamblade - IIzuna Uchiha
PvE Altmer Warden Healer - Lady Netch
PVP Dumner Mag DK - Lady Embers
Clears
vAS HM
vMoL HM
vHoF HM
vCR +1
vSS
Craglorns HM6 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just don't understand how streak and cloak are okay to get out of fights but the only bit of utility the slowest class in the game has gets completely removed.
while you can cloak away and streak away ( to reset fight ) , you cannot use it as both defensive and offensive play.
wings was giving you ranged CC immunity, you could absorb 4 projectiles, and on top of that send them back as offensive
so while you was completely safe from ranged skills, your duelant had to deal with both his damage and CC ( with light attacks and weapon enchants ) and also your damage. it was like 2v1
about it previous cost: its just as expensive as hardened ward or BoL and both sorcerer and templar can spam it in fight. there is no reason why DK shouldnt do it too, with also enought resources to put pressure. You now can use shield as sorcerer do, Dampen Magic is just as strong as Hardened ward and you have additional 50% projectile resistance. i dont see issueEdited by Anyron on October 1, 2019 10:55AM1 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭i dont play mag dk, never have but reflective plate gave the class identity. you knew, if you fired a projectile at them there was a chance it was coming back. That was a good thing for the game, risk vs reward.
spam it and there isnt chance - there is always something coming back. where is your risk? that skill damages you?
it wasnt risk, it was only reward. why should i deal with enemy when all i have to do is spam one skill ?1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I love when people post about wings and pretend that when fighting many builds that were ranged, it was not op. I only used wings for a few months and every time I felt it was too cheesy and made combat boring.
There was no sorc or NB I couldn't just cast wings against and use coag/green dragon blood to outheal damage on my stam and mag DK, and I did in fact keep it up 100% of the time it mattered (and when I didn't there was sheild ult), despite the noise on the forums claiming it was not possible.
But that was "skillful," game play? Spam wings, get ult up, wait until the opponent had no stam to roll or had to hide, close the distance + spam talons, deep breath, whip and leap. Didn't it also stun if one projectile hit? Worked every time.
Without wings even slotted on DK now I do not have any issues with ranged builds, to slot it as its old form in the current patch I can easily see how OP and broken it would be vs ranged builds, even on the PTS. Not to mention how worthless it would be vs. melee builds - you know the ones that actually pose a real threat this patch and the next one.
It's almost as if people on these forums have to find a new cheese every time their old one melts. I will oppose it every time I see it, and yes I am a stam and mag DK main, but I am not about to come on the forums and pretend something that got nerfed because it was OP is not IMO.
EDIT: I saw someone say if any DK is happy with the change. Yeah me, because it helped me get good and stop crunching on a single skill. That skill getting nerfed helped me realize real fast that if I think a skill is broken, its going to get nerfed eventually. Not participating in the FOTM and slotting skills that are OP in a patch has been a great move every time.
You pretent not to understand that a fatigue added cost would protect you from perma wing spam.
The same treatment magsorc got on their Bolt of ESC. Stamsorc can use it as well.
DKs got treated unfairly. The class lost a mechanism.
Give it a rest. You are happy that others cant enjoy their main class that had a beautiful ability. Everybody knows thats your bottom of line..
I didn't know a single skill was needed to enjoy a class, but thanks. I'm learning a lot on the PTS section of the forums.
You still avoid the real point.
You are happy the ability was deleted.
You would have been just fine if it had an added fatigue cost.
You are not fooling anybodyi dont play mag dk, never have but reflective plate gave the class identity. you knew, if you fired a projectile at them there was a chance it was coming back. That was a good thing for the game, risk vs reward.
spam it and there isnt chance - there is always something coming back. where is your risk? that skill damages you?
it wasnt risk, it was only reward. why should i deal with enemy when all i have to do is spam one skill ?
You do realize that for the GCD that a magDK wastes, plus the 3.5k magika you can NOT attack and apply a CC, a debuff, you can heal yourself, buff yourself, use a damage shield AND USE LIGHT ATK WEAVING.
And THEN if you still want to atk those wings you had other non reflectable abilities? Just like all the able players were doing?
Go away. Being satisfied with a removed mechanism from the game shows how terrible you were.
And then remember that stamDKs could use that ability for the cost of magika that wasnt endless.
1
