Reflective Plate. Why the change should be reverted. Comparison of DK treatment with other classes

GeorgeBlack

The whole issue with the wings could be solved with a fatigue cost for those saying that it was shutting down their call of duty moment.

1) It wasn't nerfed like ZOS does with other classes. It was deleted
2)Unique feature turned to a 6s buff. Ty for the animation.
3)"Shutting down Ranged enemies". Really?
4)Was wings part of Meta?
5) Non DK, able players. What have they said?
6) Weird DK changes that are passed on as buffs.
7) I'm I playing a Dragon Knight or a Paladin? Stop it with the DK healer additions.

1) Reflective Plate was totally deleted. It wasn't changed. Eso has way to many abilities that are just timers that improve stats. This ability with its beautiful animation has become just that. Another timer. It was an action, based on observation and though. DKs saw that CC or snipe coming and made the call to turn the tables. And enemies would see them bring out those terrifying wings.

2) Only two more classes have very unique abilities. The one is Nightblade that can use Cloak and Shade. Both of them have suffered nerfs but ZOS never dared to outright delete their function and change them to some buff ability with a timer to improve stats.
a) Imagine if Shade was changed to reduce melee dmg for 6s for 3700 magika. "Oh you casted a shadow and you take less dmg because enemies are confused". How insulting that would be to the old Elder Scrolls hooded bow bearer assassin, master of shadows.
b)Imagine if cloak was deleted completelly and was replaced by the new Dark Cloak that heals.

And then Sorcerer, a class that has access to all the tools available in this game.
a)Magsorc makes the most out of magika shields than any other class. I have said enough about the shields but I will bring back the point that in the course of nerfing these abilities ZOS couldn't dare to outright reduce their effectiveness, much less that simply delete and replace them with another mechanic. They are still here, doing what they used to, no matter if the equations of the coding are different. Still the same ability that helps sorcerers turtle and spam light atks and wait for their timed burst to happen.
b)sorcerers have the best mobility inn the game. Bolt ESC was nerfed, the biggest being the fatique feature. But it wasn't straight out deleted and replaced by some lame generic mechanic.
"oh you casted Bolt ESC. Instead of teleporting, you gain Minor expedition for 6s for the cost of 3700, but we will spare you the fatique. Be thankful

Read this @ZOS_BrianWheeler. Read in 2) how you treated DK and how with this logic you should treat NB and sorc. But then your game would be completelly tasteless. I wonder, as a game developer how could you delete a cool mechanic like Reflective Plate for a 6s buff.

3) "Wings was shutting down ranged opponents" Really? MagDKs and even more stamDKs had unlimited magika to cast all their other abilities including Reflective Plate every second COD. Really?
Let's get serious. Wings was not shutting you down. Good DKs outplayed you with the use of Wings. If only when you saw the Wings flapping and you though, you know what? I can't punch a knife. If the DK is using Wings, I'll just go defensive for the duration, making the DK waste magika and a COD. I can heal, I buff up, I can cast shields, I can place Dots, I can use gap closer and make that poor meele DK come after me.
Wings was shutting down mindless pew pew. And for what? 4 projectiles for a few seconds?
Really? Was wings shutting down ALL ranged opponents? Give me a break and stop nerfing my class....

4) StamDKS didn't had the magika to "shut down ranged opponents". Wings wasn't even slotted in the Meta stamDK that was using SnB/2h 7th Fury BS, spamming LA/Ransack/Bash LA/Ransack/Bash, dots and buffs until Fury was carrying them to the moment they could 1shoot enemies.
As for magDKs, oh boy.... they were awsome once upon a time. You took away inhale from them. The battlegrounds were full of Dragonknight Standards. Nerfed all the passives.
Did you really had to take away Wings from the class before trying to use fatigue mechanic so that they "can't spam Wings" with their 'endless' magika?

5) A lot of petty ppl called on DKs to l2p and adapt. Even since the change I have seen countless non DK players defend Reflective Plate and describe it as a cool feature of ESO PvP. They were saying that they would overcome wing spamming DKs and outplay them. Lots of names that annoy me on many other topics, but by not maining a DK and defending this ability, they made me say "I'll be damned. This ** actually sees the beauty of an iconic feature. Very nice".

6) Show some understanding for the DK class. Magsorc lost major sorcery from Power Surge and within an update they got Critical Surge with major sorcery, making it extremelly easy to heal. Heal HP under those shields that you ZOS never dared to outright nerf.
Why do we have to complain for years about:
Fiery Breath dealing crap dmg and not hitting targets. (We got this dot ability that adds a debuff to work as spammable? You played with cost I don't know how many times?)
Igneous Weapons offering NOTHING for stamDKs
Passives being watered down and useless since they have a very narrow field of influence.
And you slap us with some weird abilities for... DK healers. StamDK ranged spammable. Seething Fury that offers WD but is attached to a.... magika spammable? A Dot that is half spammable and half DoT in Venomous Claw.
You use all those Dev Comments for all those weird additions you pass off as buffs, only to revert the changes to the next dlc with new reasoning in dev comments.


7) Why does my DK feel more like a Paladin? Why do I have a ball of fire healing me or a friend, a throwing rock dealing dmg, stun, and healing me and friends.
Why does a magnetic field of rocks around my character increase my Healing power. What does any of this has to do with a dragon or a knight?
And why do I keep getting nerf as a fighter but I keep getting weird healing buffs?
DKs needs Battle roar and ulty gen to sustain. I dont want to be a Paladin.

Revert the change to Reflective Plate so that we can move forward and make changes based on what a DK should be and not just random things healing us and making us take less dmg from ranged atks.

DreadDaedroth

Reflective plate morph should be restored. The skill didn't reset fight like others can. It was a iconic dk skill that affected other dks too not only other classes and now it's rarely seen being used even if some are brave enough to define the change a buff.

RouDeR

"Saw that snipe coming" ..
Yeah right..

satanio

Wings skill as it is may see comeback if onlyspammable meta is what we will have next patch. And it actually will be really useful skill in that meta.

Trancestor

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

GeorgeBlack

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

FATIGUE ADDED COST

Trancestor

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

FATIGUE ADDED COST

That could've worked ye..
Would become too costly to spam but would be reserved for crucial moments like dealing with a snipetard.
But then you kill the snare removal aspect of the skill so maybe leave snare removal morph like it is now and bring back reflect with fatigue to the other morph.

juhislihis19

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

Trancestor

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

They could have, swallow soul doesn't look like a projectile at all but it's considered one, but that would still not be enough, light attacks are so much of your damage, and good luck getting good players low without your burst abilities like spectral bow or frags.

Royalthought

Little fyi. I wouldn't envy the "treatment" nightblades got for DK's.

You compared losing 100% damage reduction from range for x projectiles to 6 seconds of 50% damage reduction of all incoming projectiles.
Nightblades had completely deleted from their class major defile, major fracture on S.A., Cloak purge, incap stun, minor berserk, Cloak crit heal, 100% damage loss on refreshing path, etc, etc.

The new wings got mixed reactions. It was a huge direction change and I understand your reaction. But lets not downplay the nerfs to other classes to build a case. It's counterproductive.

Davadin

Royalthought wrote: »

Little fyi. I wouldn't envy the "treatment" nightblades got for DK's.

You compared losing 100% damage reduction from range for x projectiles to 6 seconds of 50% damage reduction of all incoming projectiles.

personally, i miss the ability to FULLY reflect an enemy's attack.


sure, let me suffer 50% of the damage, and make it super short period and make it costly so it's not spammable, go ahead. take away the stun/snare immunity even!!

but....


i want the full damage of the projectile to go back to the attacker.


give DK our identity back.


we're not *** tank healers.

we are DRAGON KNIGHTS.

Neoauspex

Trancestor wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

They could have, swallow soul doesn't look like a projectile at all but it's considered one, but that would still not be enough, light attacks are so much of your damage, and good luck getting good players low without your burst abilities like spectral bow or frags.

Concealed Weapon and Soul Assault already existed when they nerfed this skill.

Xarc

Davadin wrote: »

give DK our identity back.


we're not *** tank healers.

we are DRAGON KNIGHTS.

+

Emma_Overload

50% damage reduction on projectiles is one of the best buffs in the game, period. Any other class would be THRILLED to have it. The problem is that it only renders attacks mostly ineffective and only makes the DK almost unkillable. Spoiled DKs like the OP want a spell that renders them TOTALLY IMMUNE to projectile damage, LOL. Nah, scratch that, they want to be immune to damage AND to kill enemy casters with their own reflected spells!

Trancestor

Neoauspex wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

They could have, swallow soul doesn't look like a projectile at all but it's considered one, but that would still not be enough, light attacks are so much of your damage, and good luck getting good players low without your burst abilities like spectral bow or frags.

Concealed Weapon and Soul Assault already existed when they nerfed this skill.

Are you implying every magblade should've ran CA and SA? Instead of you know...proper skills?

katorga

I miss when you could re-reflect your attack back at the DK who reflected it to you.

Mayrael

As I said many times before. Wings had no counter. No slotting one non reflectable skill is not a counter, slotting more is killing your build just to counter one skill of a one class (unlike with cloak where you don't even have to slot any additional skills, just use det potion like I do).

I voted for making wings to reflect 3 projectiles per user not per cast as it used to be only at range greater than 10m, unfortunately DKs wanted to preserve their I win button vs ranged classes, so they lost their crutch.

I still think that change proposed above would be more balanced and more fun for DKs (big middle finger to snipe spammers and the rest cowards that are afraid to get closer) and possibility for fair fights vs enemies that don't afraid to brawl in close range.

Witar

Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.

Neoauspex

Trancestor wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

They could have, swallow soul doesn't look like a projectile at all but it's considered one, but that would still not be enough, light attacks are so much of your damage, and good luck getting good players low without your burst abilities like spectral bow or frags.

Concealed Weapon and Soul Assault already existed when they nerfed this skill.

Are you implying every magblade should've ran CA and SA? Instead of you know...proper skills?

If you weren't satisfied by being able to just disengage a DK at will (which Nightblades can inherently do because they still have the skill that counters everything) and you wanted to actually try to kill one in open combat, then yes you would want to run skills that were not hard countered by wings.

xeNNNNN

Witar wrote: »

Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.

Undeserved*

A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.

Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.

Solariken

The damage on DFS is actually very significant - have you tried it? If retaliatory damage is what you want.

Ref Plate is essentially an escape and reposition skill now, which is very nice.

SipofMaim

Davadin wrote: »

give DK our identity back.


we're not *** tank healers.

we are DRAGON KNIGHTS.

There are no warriors in this game. We are all mages, every class and spec, and if you're playing magicka at least some of your damage kit is about healing others. All of the original classes are in the same boat since somebody decided "play how you want to play" means every class has to be equally good at every role right out of the box. They could have given each class a fourth skill line to accomplish this, but they keep wrecking iconic skills instead.

And we're still not there, so there's probably more of that coming.

Dragon wings were fun, but that time is over.

Xvorg

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

I have played mageblade against mDks... and I asure you that cloak was the best counter to wings hands down. Crushing Shock, Fear, Soul Harvest/Tether/meteor. Not to mention CW from invis. Old agony was super strong against DKs and wings; I was one of those who begged for it (at least one of the morphs of MO should be like old agony), but few people asked for it.

Problem now is that even without wings, most mageblades are univiable because ZoS overnerfed them, so, instead of buffing mageblades while keeping wings, ZoS nerfed both classes... do you think it was a good idea?

On top of that, after wings were nerfed, everyone was using reach. Next patch, reach was nerfed since it had no counter.

NBrookus

I don't agree with the OP's entire rant, and I think Wings are objectively stronger in more situations now.

But new Wings is a boring tedious buff, and stripping Wings of it's unique aspects made play-counterplay less interesting (from both sides of the Wings) and stripped another piece of Dragonknight class soul away. Meteor Pong on the old, old Wings was fun.

I'll take Shimmering Shield over new DK Wings any day... and Shimmering is pretty boring too.

Trancestor wrote: »

Are you implying every magblade should've ran CA and SA? Instead of you know...proper skills?

You mean like Crushing Shock? Magblades always had options, they just didn't want to run them. And many of the some magblades would argue that using a whole slot for Inner Light just in case you came up against a nightblade using cloak was perfectly reasonable. The cloak counter options we have ARE reasonable, but a magblade slotting a universally available un-reflectable skill wasn't?

NeillMcAttack

Is the new eclipse shutting down styles of play!!!?!

zParallaxz

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

BRO, are you really trying to bring up old magblade? The same class that had the full range setup of meteor, merciless resolve, malefic wreath ( a hard hitting ranged stun), cripple, and a damn ranged execute. Yet my class is op for using a skill that anyone can avoid by disengaging. I’ll play devils advocate, I’ve fought many high end magblades and mag builds in general. Those who die from wings are players who don’t know how to control the pace of their own attacks.

I have a new question for you, what do you think is harder to fight against in open world for the average player? Wings or Cloak

zParallaxz

Royalthought wrote: »

Little fyi. I wouldn't envy the "treatment" nightblades got for DK's.

You compared losing 100% damage reduction from range for x projectiles to 6 seconds of 50% damage reduction of all incoming projectiles.
Nightblades had completely deleted from their class major defile, major fracture on S.A., Cloak purge, incap stun, minor berserk, Cloak crit heal, 100% damage loss on refreshing path, etc, etc.

The new wings got mixed reactions. It was a huge direction change and I understand your reaction. But lets not downplay the nerfs to other classes to build a case. It's counterproductive.

We are taking about class special abilities, not overall nerfs. But even then, the nightblade class can still be used effectively for both stam and mag counter parts. Why is a passive that gives sustain tied to a status effect that can be purged or nullified by Dark Elves. Why is igneous shield so expensive just to get major mending and very small useless shield, then Warden gets major mending passively just for using their own class heal when their health is below a threshold. Dragon Knights I feel want to be buffed to other class standards or not receive a nerf to a skill when a class has a similar borderline op skill.

zParallaxz

Neoauspex wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

They could have, swallow soul doesn't look like a projectile at all but it's considered one, but that would still not be enough, light attacks are so much of your damage, and good luck getting good players low without your burst abilities like spectral bow or frags.

Concealed Weapon and Soul Assault already existed when they nerfed this skill.

People just want to forget that melee magblade was a thing and that concealed weapon hit pretty hard. Heck even with good timed soul tether into a spec bow brought a lot of people low.

GeorgeBlack

zParallaxz wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

They could have, swallow soul doesn't look like a projectile at all but it's considered one, but that would still not be enough, light attacks are so much of your damage, and good luck getting good players low without your burst abilities like spectral bow or frags.

Concealed Weapon and Soul Assault already existed when they nerfed this skill.

People just want to forget that melee magblade was a thing and that concealed weapon hit pretty hard. Heck even with good timed soul tether into a spec bow brought a lot of people low.

And people loved the spec

zParallaxz

Neoauspex wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

You clearly havent played a magblade vs old wings, and to a lesser extent any other mag class, good magdks could keep close to 100% uptime on the reflect making them a waste of time and sanity to fight as most mag builds and also bow builds (not snipetards). Yeah it sucks for magdks to lose that kind of fun and unique and OP feature but it was a well needed sacrifice for the greater good.

But couldn't ZOS make few Magblade skills bypass the wings? If all class skills are projectiles, that sounds like bad class design!

They could have, swallow soul doesn't look like a projectile at all but it's considered one, but that would still not be enough, light attacks are so much of your damage, and good luck getting good players low without your burst abilities like spectral bow or frags.

Concealed Weapon and Soul Assault already existed when they nerfed this skill.

Are you implying every magblade should've ran CA and SA? Instead of you know...proper skills?

If you weren't satisfied by being able to just disengage a DK at will (which Nightblades can inherently do because they still have the skill that counters everything) and you wanted to actually try to kill one in open combat, then yes you would want to run skills that were not hard countered by wings.

This sums up the discussion right here. The best counter play for wings IF it affected you was to disengage. But no, people from range feel entitled to use their full array of skills with no drawbacks.

zParallaxz

Mayrael wrote: »

As I said many times before. Wings had no counter. No slotting one non reflectable skill is not a counter, slotting more is killing your build just to counter one skill of a one class (unlike with cloak where you don't even have to slot any additional skills, just use det potion like I do).

I voted for making wings to reflect 3 projectiles per user not per cast as it used to be only at range greater than 10m, unfortunately DKs wanted to preserve their I win button vs ranged classes, so they lost their crutch.

I still think that change proposed above would be more balanced and more fun for DKs (big middle finger to snipe spammers and the rest cowards that are afraid to get closer) and possibility for fair fights vs enemies that don't afraid to brawl in close range.

Don’t most ranged classes have the advantage though when the dk doesn’t use wings? So how exactly is it a “I win button”