Reflective Plate. Why the change should be reverted. Comparison of DK treatment with other classes

DreadDaedroth

How drol! Some people don't want a iconic skill in use for years back. - Shade and streak away, little chickens, shade and streak.-(semi-quote).

xeNNNNN

Anyron wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.

Undeserved*

A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.

Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.

and what was that counter. force pulse? its like 2k dps. DK could be afk and still be able to overheal it with passive health regen.

absurd cost? like shields now? i am still able to spam it btw

*sigh* for a start another DK. Mag or Stam. Concealed weapon or suprise attack. Sweep or Jabs, hell even mag wardens can use cliffracer because it isn't reflected or stam wardens can push with sub assault oh and dont forget all the things necro has to ruin your day and Yes force pulse but frankly the point is to play around it not be able to win every single fight because its a RANGED COUNTER and well if you're a sorc thats just too bad but i guess being able to execute us with mage wrath on top of a 10% damage bonus from passives through it like everyone else with their executes is too hard. It must be awful being able to do whatever you want in PvP with almost no consequence. How terrible it must be for you.

Yeah you can spam shields and you'll live. Oh and you can also streak around us in circles before we can even reach you. Huh....horrible. if only you had a morph of streak which also allowed you to absorb incoming projectiles......huh. Wouldn't that be something as well?

DKs can spam wings for as long as they want but they're still dead before the change and after so whats your point?
and frankly if you die to a DK spamming wings you're just daft. Let them waste their mag, play for time then shut them down.

and before you start complaining about not high damage burst range counter to deal with it (because lets be real nobody at range wants it back because they disliked being countered);

1) The counter to ranged defense SHOULD BE CLOSE RANGE COMBAT.
2) Just because your counter at range isn't appealing doesn't mean its not effective to any degree and it doesnt mean you deserve some sort of burst ranged counter to a damned range counter that makes no sense.
3) It reflected 2 projectiles before being forced to recast, based on its cost alone it was way too expensive to spam hence why you would be dead shortly after spamming it. To which I think people are grossly under-quantifying the definition of spam.
4) You complain about spamming wings as if DK has some sort of offensive ranged capability beyond leap, are you seriously implying that we should use flames of oblivion exclusively vs 10k+ shields? Yeah no. Dont think so and no before you say it the difference between FOO and Crushing shock is that with crushing shock you can continuously engage at range, FOO is out of player control on what it hits and when the damage is dealt you have total autonomy with crushing shock. At least you can run away if things get to Dicey as a sorc. DKs? yeah we just take everything and die because our only defense against ranged stuns was deleted because sorcs be like "buhhh muh damage" and bow builds be like "ohhh but muh grossly overpowered draining shot". You know as if you're not allowed to be countered. So ridiculous.

we talk about ranged counters to previous wings. another DK isnt ranged. Concealed weapon or surprise attk isnt ranged. same for templars etc etc
i didnt know sorc execute is working at 100% health. i must spam it next time in duel (sarcasm)


1) you can spam gap closers. i cannot spam streak. you can always be in melee range. close range combat is still same - my ranged skills in melee distance were reflected too. and if class is designed to be ranged, you can hardly be melee

2) there was no REAL counter to wings. thats why it was changed in first place. it has its reasons. it isnt here just to spoil your play. try to duel something you cannot damage, something you cannot stun and what reflects your attacks. nice work, you found BALLANCED combat

3) 2 projectiles? are you sure?

4) why you should spam wings only in ranged combat when you can spam them in melee distance too? because it reflected ranged in melee range too? slot ANY melee weapoin in game and you can have gap closer. if your chain is broken, use other gap closers to get into melee. or should i just stand steadily while you can get your ass to me ?


ridiculous? yes you are. you think you can play your DK and everyone else has to adapt to you? pathetic

You're not getting it you arent supposed to counter a anti-range ability with RANGE thats just idiotic. Just because they use wings in Melee that doesn't mean its no longer a anti-range ability either ANY RANGE thats the point.

A1: Gap closers? you mean the buggy chains that virtually never work properly?

A2: I've dueled plenty of magDks and stamDKs on other classes and won and when they've spammed wings i've played around it. You're not supposed to have an easy road vs something that hard counters you thats the entire point. Is it really so bad that sorcs and bow builds were countered? seriously?

A3: Yup this is why some people spammed it. the duration came from the spell resist while active and then later the immobilisation immunity (which wasn't needed)

A4: Again they are an anti-projectile/range ability. If you cant use the normal bread and butter then think outside of the box. Thats the whole point of PvP. I had no problems with dealing with it.

The only pathetic thing here is the concept that you are NOT allowed to get countered in any way shape or form and you refuse to use anything else. I still use chains regardless of how garbage it is with the rest of the game as it doesnt even work properly half the time because of server performance, I dont like it but I sitll use it because it can be useful but as the only useful ranged tool in my kit beyond leap 95% of my own kit is dead at any range because of distance that cannot be closed effectively without using ult or spamming a single ability that doesnt work half the time because LoS is a thing and lag breaks that.

Funny that you think I want everyone else to adapt to me instead of considering that I have to adapt to EVERYONE ELSE all the time just like everyone else has to for every other fight they have to or they die. I have adapted to the new wings doesnt mean I have to like it. Not at all. You know you shouldn't be so hypocritical, telling me I want everyone to adapt to me.....and you're a sorc. Ironic.

I have more choice words for someone like you honestly but "pathetic" doesn't do it justice so I won't bother anymore.

Davadin

Emma_Overload wrote: »

50% damage reduction on projectiles is one of the best buffs in the game, period. Any other class would be THRILLED to have it. The problem is that it only renders attacks mostly ineffective and only makes the DK almost unkillable. Spoiled DKs like the OP want a spell that renders them TOTALLY IMMUNE to projectile damage, LOL. Nah, scratch that, they want to be immune to damage AND to kill enemy casters with their own reflected spells!

whats so wrong with melee class that has a skill to be immune from projectiles for a few seconds?

Jodynn

Davadin wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

50% damage reduction on projectiles is one of the best buffs in the game, period. Any other class would be THRILLED to have it. The problem is that it only renders attacks mostly ineffective and only makes the DK almost unkillable. Spoiled DKs like the OP want a spell that renders them TOTALLY IMMUNE to projectile damage, LOL. Nah, scratch that, they want to be immune to damage AND to kill enemy casters with their own reflected spells!

whats so wrong with melee class that has a skill to be immune from projectiles for a few seconds?

Being immune would be fine. Reflecting is bad.

WillhelmBlack

Magblades were complaining about reflects.

The only Magblades I've encountered are using unreflectable DoTs or Zaan and Onslaught.

Davadin

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

50% damage reduction on projectiles is one of the best buffs in the game, period. Any other class would be THRILLED to have it. The problem is that it only renders attacks mostly ineffective and only makes the DK almost unkillable. Spoiled DKs like the OP want a spell that renders them TOTALLY IMMUNE to projectile damage, LOL. Nah, scratch that, they want to be immune to damage AND to kill enemy casters with their own reflected spells!

whats so wrong with melee class that has a skill to be immune from projectiles for a few seconds?

Being immune would be fine. Reflecting is bad.

I'm OK with just immune then.

BUT I still think having both option as morph would be fine; say, 1 defensive to fully absorb (so immune + gain resource), 1 offensive that reflect some but ur not as immune (say, immune 75%, reflect 25%)

Again, I agree that being fully immune PLUS fulll 100% reflect (or more lol), is just too much.

if anything, that should be an ulti skill.

Ulti - cost 150 ulti-points. you grew dragonwings. fully 100% immune to ranged attacks while projecting 50% of the damage back.





hmmm....... now that Corrosive been nerfed (DoT doesn't get no-penetration bonus anymore), maybe we can add THAT to Corrosive Ulti.

For something that costs 200 ulti and lasted for 10 sec only, and doesn't reduce incoming DoT damage, i say growing some wings would be a nice addition.

Jodynn

Davadin wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

50% damage reduction on projectiles is one of the best buffs in the game, period. Any other class would be THRILLED to have it. The problem is that it only renders attacks mostly ineffective and only makes the DK almost unkillable. Spoiled DKs like the OP want a spell that renders them TOTALLY IMMUNE to projectile damage, LOL. Nah, scratch that, they want to be immune to damage AND to kill enemy casters with their own reflected spells!

whats so wrong with melee class that has a skill to be immune from projectiles for a few seconds?

Being immune would be fine. Reflecting is bad.

I'm OK with just immune then.

BUT I still think having both option as morph would be fine; say, 1 defensive to fully absorb (so immune + gain resource), 1 offensive that reflect some but ur not as immune (say, immune 75%, reflect 25%)

Again, I agree that being fully immune PLUS fulll 100% reflect (or more lol), is just too much.

if anything, that should be an ulti skill.

Ulti - cost 150 ulti-points. you grew dragonwings. fully 100% immune to ranged attacks while projecting 50% of the damage back.





hmmm....... now that Corrosive been nerfed (DoT doesn't get no-penetration bonus anymore), maybe we can add THAT to Corrosive Ulti.

For something that costs 200 ulti and lasted for 10 sec only, and doesn't reduce incoming DoT damage, i say growing some wings would be a nice addition.

I agree its lacking in power and needs an adjustment I'm just not sure what that is as everyone has their own opinion.

For corrosive I would be fine giving me spell pen for dd as well DoTs aren't needing the pen the pressure is there it's not meant for burst trapping.

Sanguinor2

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I agree its lacking in power and needs an adjustment I'm just not sure what that is as everyone has their own opinion.

For corrosive I would be fine giving me spell pen for dd as well DoTs aren't needing the pen the pressure is there it's not meant for burst trapping.

Just give it the ball of Lightning Treatment: absorbs 100% for 3 seconds, teleports you, stuns and has a stacking cost increase for 4 seconds

GeorgeBlack

Dont waste time Zos.
Do right by us.

Davadin

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

50% damage reduction on projectiles is one of the best buffs in the game, period. Any other class would be THRILLED to have it. The problem is that it only renders attacks mostly ineffective and only makes the DK almost unkillable. Spoiled DKs like the OP want a spell that renders them TOTALLY IMMUNE to projectile damage, LOL. Nah, scratch that, they want to be immune to damage AND to kill enemy casters with their own reflected spells!

whats so wrong with melee class that has a skill to be immune from projectiles for a few seconds?

Being immune would be fine. Reflecting is bad.

I'm OK with just immune then.

BUT I still think having both option as morph would be fine; say, 1 defensive to fully absorb (so immune + gain resource), 1 offensive that reflect some but ur not as immune (say, immune 75%, reflect 25%)

Again, I agree that being fully immune PLUS fulll 100% reflect (or more lol), is just too much.

if anything, that should be an ulti skill.

Ulti - cost 150 ulti-points. you grew dragonwings. fully 100% immune to ranged attacks while projecting 50% of the damage back.





hmmm....... now that Corrosive been nerfed (DoT doesn't get no-penetration bonus anymore), maybe we can add THAT to Corrosive Ulti.

For something that costs 200 ulti and lasted for 10 sec only, and doesn't reduce incoming DoT damage, i say growing some wings would be a nice addition.

I agree its lacking in power and needs an adjustment I'm just not sure what that is as everyone has their own opinion.

For corrosive I would be fine giving me spell pen for dd as well DoTs aren't needing the pen the pressure is there it's not meant for burst trapping.

#CorrosiveDoTPenReturns5.2.3

ZOS_RogerJ

It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but baiting is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread.

VixxVexx

Thanks for the automated bot response once again ZOS.

Seems like the general consensus would be to have an absorbing morph and a reflecting morph with a minimum range condition of 15 meters.

• Protective Plate absorbs projectiles and gives something back like Magicka or Ultimate.
• Dragon Fire Scale should revert to Reflective Plate but only reflect projectiles over 15 meters.

Should the absorb morph also have a range condition? I think so.
Should the absorb morph keep the snare immunity? I think so.
Should the absorb morph have a damage limit like Shimmering? No.
Should the absorb morph return Magicka, Ultimate or something else? I don't know.
Should the reflect morph also return cc or just damage? Maybe just the damage.

Opinions on this please.

Anyron

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

I love when people post about wings and pretend that when fighting many builds that were ranged, it was not op. I only used wings for a few months and every time I felt it was too cheesy and made combat boring.

There was no sorc or NB I couldn't just cast wings against and use coag/green dragon blood to outheal damage on my stam and mag DK, and I did in fact keep it up 100% of the time it mattered (and when I didn't there was sheild ult), despite the noise on the forums claiming it was not possible.

But that was "skillful," game play? Spam wings, get ult up, wait until the opponent had no stam to roll or had to hide, close the distance + spam talons, deep breath, whip and leap. Didn't it also stun if one projectile hit? Worked every time.

Without wings even slotted on DK now I do not have any issues with ranged builds, to slot it as its old form in the current patch I can easily see how OP and broken it would be vs ranged builds, even on the PTS. Not to mention how worthless it would be vs. melee builds - you know the ones that actually pose a real threat this patch and the next one.

It's almost as if people on these forums have to find a new cheese every time their old one melts. I will oppose it every time I see it, and yes I am a stam and mag DK main, but I am not about to come on the forums and pretend something that got nerfed because it was OP is not IMO.

EDIT: I saw someone say if any DK is happy with the change. Yeah me, because it helped me get good and stop crunching on a single skill. That skill getting nerfed helped me realize real fast that if I think a skill is broken, its going to get nerfed eventually. Not participating in the FOTM and slotting skills that are OP in a patch has been a great move every time.

You pretent not to understand that a fatigue added cost would protect you from perma wing spam.
The same treatment magsorc got on their Bolt of ESC. Stamsorc can use it as well.
DKs got treated unfairly. The class lost a mechanism.

Give it a rest. You are happy that others cant enjoy their main class that had a beautiful ability. Everybody knows thats your bottom of line..

I didn't know a single skill was needed to enjoy a class, but thanks. I'm learning a lot on the PTS section of the forums.

You still avoid the real point.
You are happy the ability was deleted.
You would have been just fine if it had an added fatigue cost.
You are not fooling anybody

Anyron wrote: »

mcb123 wrote: »

i dont play mag dk, never have but reflective plate gave the class identity. you knew, if you fired a projectile at them there was a chance it was coming back. That was a good thing for the game, risk vs reward.

spam it and there isnt chance - there is always something coming back. where is your risk? that skill damages you?

it wasnt risk, it was only reward. why should i deal with enemy when all i have to do is spam one skill ?

You do realize that for the GCD that a magDK wastes, plus the 3.5k magika you can NOT attack and apply a CC, a debuff, you can heal yourself, buff yourself, use a damage shield AND USE LIGHT ATK WEAVING.
And THEN if you still want to atk those wings you had other non reflectable abilities? Just like all the able players were doing?

Go away. Being satisfied with a removed mechanism from the game shows how terrible you were.

And then remember that stamDKs could use that ability for the cost of magika that wasnt endless.

1) i dont care about stamDKs.

i didnt get that about GCD part. how is it different for wings and shield?
also, cost? you think sorcerer has endless magicka or some advantage over magDK?

if i can spam shield you cound certainly spam wings


and who is terrible here? 1button-win skill was removed. deal with it

GeorgeBlack

Anyron wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

I love when people post about wings and pretend that when fighting many builds that were ranged, it was not op. I only used wings for a few months and every time I felt it was too cheesy and made combat boring.

There was no sorc or NB I couldn't just cast wings against and use coag/green dragon blood to outheal damage on my stam and mag DK, and I did in fact keep it up 100% of the time it mattered (and when I didn't there was sheild ult), despite the noise on the forums claiming it was not possible.

But that was "skillful," game play? Spam wings, get ult up, wait until the opponent had no stam to roll or had to hide, close the distance + spam talons, deep breath, whip and leap. Didn't it also stun if one projectile hit? Worked every time.

Without wings even slotted on DK now I do not have any issues with ranged builds, to slot it as its old form in the current patch I can easily see how OP and broken it would be vs ranged builds, even on the PTS. Not to mention how worthless it would be vs. melee builds - you know the ones that actually pose a real threat this patch and the next one.

It's almost as if people on these forums have to find a new cheese every time their old one melts. I will oppose it every time I see it, and yes I am a stam and mag DK main, but I am not about to come on the forums and pretend something that got nerfed because it was OP is not IMO.

EDIT: I saw someone say if any DK is happy with the change. Yeah me, because it helped me get good and stop crunching on a single skill. That skill getting nerfed helped me realize real fast that if I think a skill is broken, its going to get nerfed eventually. Not participating in the FOTM and slotting skills that are OP in a patch has been a great move every time.

You pretent not to understand that a fatigue added cost would protect you from perma wing spam.
The same treatment magsorc got on their Bolt of ESC. Stamsorc can use it as well.
DKs got treated unfairly. The class lost a mechanism.

Give it a rest. You are happy that others cant enjoy their main class that had a beautiful ability. Everybody knows thats your bottom of line..

I didn't know a single skill was needed to enjoy a class, but thanks. I'm learning a lot on the PTS section of the forums.

You still avoid the real point.
You are happy the ability was deleted.
You would have been just fine if it had an added fatigue cost.
You are not fooling anybody

Anyron wrote: »

mcb123 wrote: »

i dont play mag dk, never have but reflective plate gave the class identity. you knew, if you fired a projectile at them there was a chance it was coming back. That was a good thing for the game, risk vs reward.

spam it and there isnt chance - there is always something coming back. where is your risk? that skill damages you?

it wasnt risk, it was only reward. why should i deal with enemy when all i have to do is spam one skill ?

You do realize that for the GCD that a magDK wastes, plus the 3.5k magika you can NOT attack and apply a CC, a debuff, you can heal yourself, buff yourself, use a damage shield AND USE LIGHT ATK WEAVING.
And THEN if you still want to atk those wings you had other non reflectable abilities? Just like all the able players were doing?

Go away. Being satisfied with a removed mechanism from the game shows how terrible you were.

And then remember that stamDKs could use that ability for the cost of magika that wasnt endless.

1) i dont care about stamDKs.

i didnt get that about GCD part. how is it different for wings and shield?
also, cost? you think sorcerer has endless magicka or some advantage over magDK?

if i can spam shield you cound certainly spam wings


and who is terrible here? 1button-win skill was removed. deal with it

It wont be long before Bolt of Esc gets removed.

"I dont care about stamDKs."

Then dont post in forums, claiming to be reasonable.

Xarc

Anyron wrote: »

1) i dont care about stamDKs.

1button-win skill was removed. deal with it

What's the point debating on this thread ?

Zulera301

having read all 5 pages of this thread, it can basically be summarized as follows:
one one side: people who want a viable solution to the "F.U." nerf ZOS gave wings
on the other side: snipe-spammers and sorcs that got salty because they had L2P issues against this ability

while DKs have been my main class for a while (despite the countless nerfs against them each new patch), I've played multiple different types of builds on all of the other classes too, and my character with the highest PvP rank is actually currently a sorc (surprise surprise).

that being said, wings was by no means an instasnt win button. It was a wonderful shutdown against n00bs who thought that spamming snipes/frags/spears/flame touches/etc for eternity would carve them an infallible path to victory, and boy oh boy it was the most satisfying thing in PvP to watch them get hoisted with their own petards.

but that being said, it was by no means unstoppable. did it make you have to switch up your approach and plan of action? absolutely. did it make you have to gauge whether or not engaging was the best course of action? yes. did DKs who spammed it incessantly come out of Cyrodiil or BGs with 0 deaths and a dozen or more kills? never once. Was it overperforming? possibly. but even if it was, it never seemed to be a big enough issue to generate too many complaints by people with any actual semblance of skill. I used it enough that I knew how it could get countered, and similarly, ran into it enough on other classes (or even other DKs) that I learned how to deal with it or counter it as well.

OP made some solid points, and so have my "Agree" react.

Skoomah

No clue why they stopped wings from being able to reflect. Sword and Board skill line allows you to reflect with a skill and an ultimate. Talk about taking class identity and giving it to a generic weapon skill line.

By the way... the counter to wings is to time your burst in between the wings. It's quite easy for the wings spammer to run out of magicka. And it's also quite easy for the attacker to time their burst in-between the wings.

Bad players spamming damage without timing and skill? PUNISHED.

Good players pinpointing damage and timing it properly? REWARDED.

How do people learn this? With experience and time put into the game. These nuances only are revealed with experience.

What's easier? Complain on the forums or get your ass beat in duels until you get better? Thought so...

BattleAxe

Let’s not forget yes wings was strong and could shutdown range builds which is kind of wut a melee class has to do to get within well melee range. Also wardens have a skill that shuts down range yet we don’t complain about that.

relentless_turnip

Zulera301 wrote: »

having read all 5 pages of this thread, it can basically be summarized as follows:
one one side: people who want a viable solution to the "F.U." nerf ZOS gave wings
on the other side: snipe-spammers and sorcs that got salty because they had L2P issues against this ability

while DKs have been my main class for a while (despite the countless nerfs against them each new patch), I've played multiple different types of builds on all of the other classes too, and my character with the highest PvP rank is actually currently a sorc (surprise surprise).

that being said, wings was by no means an instasnt win button. It was a wonderful shutdown against n00bs who thought that spamming snipes/frags/spears/flame touches/etc for eternity would carve them an infallible path to victory, and boy oh boy it was the most satisfying thing in PvP to watch them get hoisted with their own petards.

but that being said, it was by no means unstoppable. did it make you have to switch up your approach and plan of action? absolutely. did it make you have to gauge whether or not engaging was the best course of action? yes. did DKs who spammed it incessantly come out of Cyrodiil or BGs with 0 deaths and a dozen or more kills? never once. Was it overperforming? possibly. but even if it was, it never seemed to be a big enough issue to generate too many complaints by people with any actual semblance of skill. I used it enough that I knew how it could get countered, and similarly, ran into it enough on other classes (or even other DKs) that I learned how to deal with it or counter it as well.

OP made some solid points, and so have my "Agree" react.

I main MagDK and as much as i miss this skill I do think it was a little unfair. Yes it could be countered and it was only deadly to those who weren't familiar with it, but it did shut down a lot of players chosen form of attack.

Definitely a learn to play issue with a lot of people and considering we have no mobility or gap closer it was a great filler.

As you can see I am very much on the fence

I use 'Spell Wall' as my defensive ultimate. I use it a lot in cyrodiil as you can literally run at a zerg and return all of their projectiles.

I think 50% mitigation whilst still being able to block and fight is really good and i still use wings in a duel.

I slot mist form the majority of the time though as an 'oh ***' button, I would love it if they just added major expedition at base, making it reasonable alternative to getting out of a fight. There is the danger that it could get spammed for 100% up time during a fight and adds speed to a DK which we all accept isn't part of our 'identity'.

As you can see I am battling with my own internal monologue, thoughts anyone?
Given that it makes it probably stronger than mist form(6 seconds you can fight and block) would it be OP?

ninjaguyman

They really should've just put a minimum range on wings for things to be reflected. If someones above that range, their projectiles get reflected back to them. If they're below that range, then its fair game for both parties to start duking it out. Gives dk's protection from ranged builds dropping nukes on them from miles away, especially when outnumbered. Stops dk's form totally locking down ranged builds in a 1v1, but the ranged build must play in range of the dk if they want to deal damage.

Pauls

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

a) Imagine if Shade was changed to reduce melee dmg for 6s for 3700 magika. "Oh you casted a shadow and you take less dmg because enemies are confused". How insulting that would be to the old Elder Scrolls hooded bow bearer assassin, master of shadows.
b)Imagine if cloak was deleted completelly and was replaced by the new Dark Cloak that heals.

If melee dmg reduced by 50%, I would be happy to play melee magblade in heavy armor. And using healing cloak too.

GeorgeBlack

Pauls wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

a) Imagine if Shade was changed to reduce melee dmg for 6s for 3700 magika. "Oh you casted a shadow and you take less dmg because enemies are confused". How insulting that would be to the old Elder Scrolls hooded bow bearer assassin, master of shadows.
b)Imagine if cloak was deleted completelly and was replaced by the new Dark Cloak that heals.

If melee dmg reduced by 50%, I would be happy to play melee magblade in heavy armor. And using healing cloak too.

Unlike you I didnt want to play SnB/2h 7th Fury BS stamDK (that didnt slot builds).
Unlike you I like my class used to be, the idea of it, which math with give me the most OP build.

xaraan

I don't mind the changes they made to wings. BUT, I do find that giving sorc essentially the same thing that was nerfed with Ball Lightning (or even giving them a version of the NB sp bow) is not very well thought out. If those abilities needed to be changed b/c they were too strong, why are you giving them to a different class? Something to nerf in a few months?

SipofMaim

Zulera301 wrote: »

It was a wonderful shutdown against n00bs who thought that spamming snipes/frags/spears/flame touches/etc for eternity would carve them an infallible path to victory, and boy oh boy it was the most satisfying thing in PvP to watch them get hoisted with their own petards.

It was extremely satisfying. I've also been on the other side of that, hurling a frag just as the wings flap and bracing myself to eat it. Both sides of that were viscerally thrilling, it's sad those days are gone. So much of our power comes from our gear, now. Game's changed.

Pauls

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Pauls wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

a) Imagine if Shade was changed to reduce melee dmg for 6s for 3700 magika. "Oh you casted a shadow and you take less dmg because enemies are confused". How insulting that would be to the old Elder Scrolls hooded bow bearer assassin, master of shadows.
b)Imagine if cloak was deleted completelly and was replaced by the new Dark Cloak that heals.

If melee dmg reduced by 50%, I would be happy to play melee magblade in heavy armor. And using healing cloak too.

Unlike you I didnt want to play SnB/2h 7th Fury BS stamDK (that didnt slot builds).
Unlike you I like my class used to be, the idea of it, which math with give me the most OP build.

Dont put words in my mouth please, I didnt say anything about SnB/2h 7th Fury BS stamDK. I responded to your example of "insulting" class skill change, that it would be alright to try new NB playstile. And if you say that these imaginary changes of shade and cloak skills are equal to reflective plate change, thats not accurate, reflective was nerfed because thats too much for one skill to have half of SnB ultimate effect.

GeorgeBlack

Pauls wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Pauls wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

a) Imagine if Shade was changed to reduce melee dmg for 6s for 3700 magika. "Oh you casted a shadow and you take less dmg because enemies are confused". How insulting that would be to the old Elder Scrolls hooded bow bearer assassin, master of shadows.
b)Imagine if cloak was deleted completelly and was replaced by the new Dark Cloak that heals.

If melee dmg reduced by 50%, I would be happy to play melee magblade in heavy armor. And using healing cloak too.

Unlike you I didnt want to play SnB/2h 7th Fury BS stamDK (that didnt slot builds).
Unlike you I like my class used to be, the idea of it, which math with give me the most OP build.

Dont put words in my mouth please, I didnt say anything about SnB/2h 7th Fury BS stamDK. I responded to your example of "insulting" class skill change, that it would be alright to try new NB playstile. And if you say that these imaginary changes of shade and cloak skills are equal to reflective plate change, thats not accurate, reflective was nerfed because thats too much for one skill to have half of SnB ultimate effect.

Says you.
Dont worry though.
I can see those changes happening

zParallaxz

milllaurie wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Wings up? Turtle up and use light atks.
Who is wasting magika now?
Git gud...

Nah, he is gud.
Thing is I played both sides. And I can tell you wings were on similar level as cloak. Wings are totally useless against staminators. Wings could only shut down some pressure while cloak can reset a fight. On the other hand - cloak is only as good as the player using it. You can burn through your magicka trying to cloak in hurricane for example.
I don't understand why people wish all classes to be equally good against all other classes. It will be rock-paper-scissors no matter how hard you try. I don't go complaining about templars being op while running a dot stamblade. I will struggle with them.
Think about it - when making a build people think about nb counters: be it detect pots, volatile armor or some other aoe.
Building to have a counter for wings (dots, melee burst etc) makes sense to me.
I remember myself saying "cannot reflect my bleeds" when going for a dk

Advocates for the OG wings understand this. We know that there should be consequences for the build a person runs, I never would of asked for a nerf to cloak or streak or cleansing ritual. But as soon as wings was fundamentally changed, Pandora’s box was open. All of these skills have been here since the start of the game and lived though minor nerfs. Wings was the only class defining skill that fundamentally changed from it main purpose of reflection and avoiding ranged crowd control.


The people asking for this nerf to stay have either not played the game in its first iteration of patches or don’t know how to disengage in a fight when someone is stalling with a defense skill, I.e wings or cloak. People would swear up and down that wings is following them and hitting them for up to 10-12k damage, but the same idiots think they should be able to spam a full 3 skills combo from 28 meters away with no counter.

zParallaxz

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

How drol! Some people don't want a iconic skill in use for years back. - Shade and streak away, little chickens, shade and streak.-(semi-quote).

It makes me laugh that some people are that clueless on how to counter wings or are so of low skill that they don’t know how to stop attacking to prevent damage. The skill was literally copied by bubble, but that skill stayed smh.

zParallaxz

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

Well deserved nerf of incredibly irritating skill in my opinion. If you can call it nerf lol.

Undeserved*

A skill should never have its functionality completely changed just because a bunch of salty players dont want to use their brain and use counter-play. IT HAD COUNTERS. Just because X class or X build suffers vs X ability that doesn't mean it beats all things, it had counters and it had absurd costs which mean't spamming it was not an option you're just delaying the inevitable if you do that.

Any skill that stops you doing damage is irritating but by that logic every single defensive skill in the game should be nerfed + heals.

and what was that counter. force pulse? its like 2k dps. DK could be afk and still be able to overheal it with passive health regen.

absurd cost? like shields now? i am still able to spam it btw

*sigh* for a start another DK. Mag or Stam. Concealed weapon or suprise attack. Sweep or Jabs, hell even mag wardens can use cliffracer because it isn't reflected or stam wardens can push with sub assault oh and dont forget all the things necro has to ruin your day and Yes force pulse but frankly the point is to play around it not be able to win every single fight because its a RANGED COUNTER and well if you're a sorc thats just too bad but i guess being able to execute us with mage wrath on top of a 10% damage bonus from passives through it like everyone else with their executes is too hard. It must be awful being able to do whatever you want in PvP with almost no consequence. How terrible it must be for you.

Yeah you can spam shields and you'll live. Oh and you can also streak around us in circles before we can even reach you. Huh....horrible. if only you had a morph of streak which also allowed you to absorb incoming projectiles......huh. Wouldn't that be something as well?

DKs can spam wings for as long as they want but they're still dead before the change and after so whats your point?
and frankly if you die to a DK spamming wings you're just daft. Let them waste their mag, play for time then shut them down.

and before you start complaining about not high damage burst range counter to deal with it (because lets be real nobody at range wants it back because they disliked being countered);

1) The counter to ranged defense SHOULD BE CLOSE RANGE COMBAT.
2) Just because your counter at range isn't appealing doesn't mean its not effective to any degree and it doesnt mean you deserve some sort of burst ranged counter to a damned range counter that makes no sense.
3) It reflected 2 projectiles before being forced to recast, based on its cost alone it was way too expensive to spam hence why you would be dead shortly after spamming it. To which I think people are grossly under-quantifying the definition of spam.
4) You complain about spamming wings as if DK has some sort of offensive ranged capability beyond leap, are you seriously implying that we should use flames of oblivion exclusively vs 10k+ shields? Yeah no. Dont think so and no before you say it the difference between FOO and Crushing shock is that with crushing shock you can continuously engage at range, FOO is out of player control on what it hits and when the damage is dealt you have total autonomy with crushing shock. At least you can run away if things get to Dicey as a sorc. DKs? yeah we just take everything and die because our only defense against ranged stuns was deleted because sorcs be like "buhhh muh damage" and bow builds be like "ohhh but muh grossly overpowered draining shot". You know as if you're not allowed to be countered. So ridiculous.

we talk about ranged counters to previous wings. another DK isnt ranged. Concealed weapon or surprise attk isnt ranged. same for templars etc etc
i didnt know sorc execute is working at 100% health. i must spam it next time in duel (sarcasm)


1) you can spam gap closers. i cannot spam streak. you can always be in melee range. close range combat is still same - my ranged skills in melee distance were reflected too. and if class is designed to be ranged, you can hardly be melee

2) there was no REAL counter to wings. thats why it was changed in first place. it has its reasons. it isnt here just to spoil your play. try to duel something you cannot damage, something you cannot stun and what reflects your attacks. nice work, you found BALLANCED combat

3) 2 projectiles? are you sure?

4) why you should spam wings only in ranged combat when you can spam them in melee distance too? because it reflected ranged in melee range too? slot ANY melee weapoin in game and you can have gap closer. if your chain is broken, use other gap closers to get into melee. or should i just stand steadily while you can get your ass to me ?


ridiculous? yes you are. you think you can play your DK and everyone else has to adapt to you? pathetic

You're not getting it you arent supposed to counter a anti-range ability with RANGE thats just idiotic. Just because they use wings in Melee that doesn't mean its no longer a anti-range ability either ANY RANGE thats the point.

A1: Gap closers? you mean the buggy chains that virtually never work properly?

A2: I've dueled plenty of magDks and stamDKs on other classes and won and when they've spammed wings i've played around it. You're not supposed to have an easy road vs something that hard counters you thats the entire point. Is it really so bad that sorcs and bow builds were countered? seriously?

A3: Yup this is why some people spammed it. the duration came from the spell resist while active and then later the immobilisation immunity (which wasn't needed)

A4: Again they are an anti-projectile/range ability. If you cant use the normal bread and butter then think outside of the box. Thats the whole point of PvP. I had no problems with dealing with it.

The only pathetic thing here is the concept that you are NOT allowed to get countered in any way shape or form and you refuse to use anything else. I still use chains regardless of how garbage it is with the rest of the game as it doesnt even work properly half the time because of server performance, I dont like it but I sitll use it because it can be useful but as the only useful ranged tool in my kit beyond leap 95% of my own kit is dead at any range because of distance that cannot be closed effectively without using ult or spamming a single ability that doesnt work half the time because LoS is a thing and lag breaks that.

Funny that you think I want everyone else to adapt to me instead of considering that I have to adapt to EVERYONE ELSE all the time just like everyone else has to for every other fight they have to or they die. I have adapted to the new wings doesnt mean I have to like it. Not at all. You know you shouldn't be so hypocritical, telling me I want everyone to adapt to me.....and you're a sorc. Ironic.

I have more choice words for someone like you honestly but "pathetic" doesn't do it justice so I won't bother anymore.

These are the same people who want you to chase them when they’re kiting with cloak or streak, meanwhile with wings at least the target can still go into melee range. This is just plain idiotic.

zParallaxz

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

50% damage reduction on projectiles is one of the best buffs in the game, period. Any other class would be THRILLED to have it. The problem is that it only renders attacks mostly ineffective and only makes the DK almost unkillable. Spoiled DKs like the OP want a spell that renders them TOTALLY IMMUNE to projectile damage, LOL. Nah, scratch that, they want to be immune to damage AND to kill enemy casters with their own reflected spells!

whats so wrong with melee class that has a skill to be immune from projectiles for a few seconds?

Being immune would be fine. Reflecting is bad.

Stop attacking with ranged skills when wings is up and use light attacks while using annulment. That is legit the counter to wings that lets you freely turtle without taking much damage (from range) whilst also getting mag back