PTS Dragonhold Feedback Notes for Class Rep Meeting

SosRuvaak · September 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.

The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.

None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol

You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.

But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.

PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!

Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.

For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.

**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**

Considering you point of view of how mobility works, would you not agree that all gap closers are mobility skill? Crit rush take from your current location to you target, from point A to point B. Tapling charge ambush leap, chains all in your point of view are moblity skills, so fatigue? Other skills like warden nature's grasp, and nightblades shadow image are also considered mobility skills in your point of view. All skills mention above while mostly need targets to use can take you from point A to point B.

Now if you consider other definetions of moblity like the ability to move without difficulty or free movement that all used in the game, because you have a skill that is literally says immoblization which is the opposite of what I said. Being mobile or using a mobility skill makes movimg from point A to point B easy as supposed to doing the moving itself like what streak does. skills that give you minor, major expedition, like rapid manuver or skills that give you snare and immoblization immunity like shuffle are considered mobility skills, because the help not being immobilized when tring to move.

Your question is should gap closers have fatigue, since dodgeroll and streak do?
You could make an argument to support that.

I personally do not campaign for nerfs so I wouldn't request it. But I can see the logic behind gap closers having it.

As for abilities like shade, if you simply cast shade repeatedly, you won't move. So fatigue there would be illogical. Having to first place and then move away in order for it to function gives it a built in cool down.

Lastly major expedition. Casting it doesn't move you. Its simply a buff.

You are correct, major expedition does not move, but it make move faster/mobile, which is the opposite of immoblization that you trying to move but you can't, you are force to stay still.

Any skill or passisve than increase you movement speed or make immunity to snares and immoblization is a mobilty skill.

soo what about nightblade stealth?
or being invisible in general? does that count as a mobility skill?
what does that even mean though, does this all count things like the invisibility potion or skill that removes the gap temporarily?
what if the gap is an illusion

Abyssmol · September 2019

Major_Lag wrote: »

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Very nice summary!

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

This is the only item I disagree with. There is a non-class purge available for support toons in PVE and PVP. If dots are reduced from what they are on live, then purging is less mandatory. Purge is only a hot button issue because of how ridiculously OP dots like soul trap are right now.

Giving everything to every class AND maintaining (if not strengthening!) class identity are at odds with each other.

Agreed, some work can be done in the alliance purge (or another way of making dots a little less impactful on stam characters than can't readily purge) can go a long way.

IMO the real problem with the Alliance War Purge is that it's a group ability, and its very steep cost reflects that fact.

Every class should have class access to a cheaper but "selfish" class purge.

Every class should have the ability to streak away. No wait better, every class should have the ability to cloak. No no no better yet every class should have the ultimate to do high damage and stun....

Lord-Otto · September 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.

The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.

None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol

You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.

But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.

PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!

Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.

For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.

**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**

I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.

Understand =/= agree

Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.

Now we have... disengagement!

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Royalthought

Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.

ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.

I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period

Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Royalthought

Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.

ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.

I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.

So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.

Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.

A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.

Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.

There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).

Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.

What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.

Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.

"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"

These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol

You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.

However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.

Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.

You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.

Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.

Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.

Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.

This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.

Here we go again.

You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."

The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.

Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).

You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.

Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.

"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."

^Read your own quote.

Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.

None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.

Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.

Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.

Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...

And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.

The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.

None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol

Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.

Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.

You just don't get it.

Thanks for being so informative.

But when I say, "Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that,"

It was my way of saying, nicely, you have a view point on something YOU want to focus on. Feel free to do so with out me.

Being insulting with "you don't get it," is a bit ironic. Let's move on peacefully. I'm not interested in "nerf this" discussions.

No, you have shown you don't get our arguments, why they are right, and now you want to stubbornly ignore our explanations. You even discarded them with a lol.
We can end this discussion peacefully. But know this: you are objectively wrong.
Aaand that would be it for me. Case settled, if you wish.

Just noticed something. "Our."

It's kinda like when players are bad. No matter how awful they are, as long as they're in a group they feel confident.

Perhaps reread the discussion. Your input had zero to do with the discussion. I told you it didn't involve me but you insisted on directing it towards me.

Listen, it's no "our." No "we." Just YOU. What you desire to discuss has no value to me. Your conversation has been rejected. Sorry. Talk about something other than me.

For example:

Ranged CC
- 28 meters was only an issue with master clench builds.
- Lowering the damage on knockbacks to devalue them as spammable's wouldve solved the problem.
- Draining shot has no knock back. Why are the knock back nerfs still applied.

See? Told you you don't get it. You don't even get that I'm not alone in explaining it to you.
Ah, whatever. Waste of time, you are.

"It's kinda like when players are bad. No matter how awful they are, as long as they're in a group they feel confident."

And you are kinda like a nightblade that sees a tough fight and decides to cloak out. AH WAIT! That's impossible, Cloak has no impact on positioning, my bad!

BlueRaven · September 2019

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Is there one class rep that PvP' s - group open world - solo open world - solo bgs and group bgs ? Or are they mainly focusing on PvE ?

The guy in charge of combat hates doing pve content (which is pretty obvious really), so don’t worry.

Your talking about @Gilliamtherogue ? Ya - umm he doesnt to open world solo pvp or group open world pvp. Only solo bgs and lil group bgs

So I'm confused who are you talking about ?

And @ZOS_BrianWheeler is the lead designer of combat in PvP and PvP' s very rearley from what I know. He just gets feedback from @Gilliamtherogue

There is not one class rep that is a true PvP'er. From what I see...

Brian Wheeler does not do pve combat. That is why during the twitch chat he referred to the “dungeon team” in the third person. He is not on it, it’s an entirely different group. It’s also why he gave bosmers a nearly entirely 100% useless for pve racial, he has no comprehension about pve needs and desires. (He also does not care about elder scrolls lore, but that is a different conversation.)

As for Gilliam his “let them eat cake” type comment toward the end of the twitch stream about the majority of eso players was particularly troubling. Gina and Brian tried to diffuse it, but Gilliam plowed forward. It’s what prompted me, after a continual “renewing 6 month” subscription since beta to finally cancel. I don’t know what his play preferences is, but his attitude is a major problem.

I have never seen a combat team for an mmo so divorced from the actual content of their own game, it’s bizarre. If I was going to promote someone to combat lead for a mmo, that person should do questing, end game content, and PvP. Hell, they should also be involved in RP guilds. Everything that combat even remotely effects should be considered. But this “team” is so cloistered in a small corner of the game, and with such disdain for anything not in that corner, no wonder they have such bad ideas.

AngeredDaisy2 · September 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

I have never seen a combat team for an mmo so divorced from the actual content of their own game, it’s bizarre. If I was going to promote someone to combat lead for a mmo, that person should do questing, end game content, and PvP. Hell, they should also be involved in RP guilds. Everything that combat even remotely effects should be considered. But this “team” is so cloistered in a small corner of the game, and with such disdain for anything not in that corner, no wonder they have such bad ideas.

This! The combat changes feel like they are trying to punish the top 10% of PvE and PvP players. I'm still curious as to how this affects the majority of Joe Average players who currently struggle but are able to complete end game content on vet mode. I'm less concerned about the average PvP players because get a zerg big enough and it doesn't matter. But a lot of PvE content is limited group size and had been created for insanely high DPS. It doesn't feel like this team is connected to the 75% of players who are going to be pushed out of end game content created after thieves guild DLC.

Rungar · September 2019

Personally i think everyone has lost touch with the spirit of this game. I don't see the class reps as any better than the developers.

Royalthought · September 2019

Rungar wrote: »

Personally i think everyone has lost touch with the spirit of this game. I don't see the class reps as any better than the developers.

I wouldn't knock the class reps. All they can do, much like us, is provide feedback. They can't control whether or not that feedback is acted upon.

Personally, when I first started playing this game, I saw the direction of the game as, DK the BIS tank, Templar BIS healer, NB BIS single target DD and sorc BIS AoE DD.

However the players complained if x class did more damage. Not content with a class excelling at 1 thing, but desiring nerfs of the next class if they excell at something else. Forum pvp.

Finally the devs. On top of shifts in staff the game direction is in a bit of uncertainty. Certain classes are clear winners of tanking, healing and damage all at once while others excell at nothing. Abilities that were fine are getting nerfed in the name of standardization and that's also hitting classes causing further disturbance.

Ingenon · September 2019

Glory wrote: »

Hello all,

The Class Reps are having a meeting to provide feedback and pain points that were common occurrences throughout the community. We want to be as transparent as possible with you all, so here is a brief write-up of some of the highlights. Feedback was compiled from several different sources, which is why you may see redundancy and formatting differences.

Thanks for posting this write-up!

karekiz · September 2019

Glory wrote: »

[*] Reducing the duration or damage of Colossus ultimate probably will not deter raid teams wanting to stack their entire roster with Stamina Necromancers. Decently-coordinated groups will have no trouble rotating Colossus ultimates and the disparity between Necromancer and the other classes will still be present. Perhaps a cooldown to Major Vulnerability like Off-Balance immunity would be more of an appropriate change than damage reduction or duration in this case as this would still require Necromancers to be brought to raids but pointless to stack 8-9 of them. EDIT: some have pointed out dislike for a CD: this is just one option the community has propsed, also have seen those who prefer toning down the value and pre-lengthening the duration

My thoughts.

Major vulnerability places a debuff on the mob: The next Major Vulnerability cast on this target is reduced by half. This last for X seconds <20 or 30?>

1. 30%
2. 15%
3. 7.5%
4. 3.75%

And so on. This keeps its value strong in small scale PvP and having one or two necro's isn't a bad thing, but stacking more is likely to be less impactful vs another class ult like Sorc which will boost a player by 25%.

Glory · September 2019

jim_1 wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Hello all,

The Class Reps are having a meeting to provide feedback and pain points that were common occurrences throughout the community. We want to be as transparent as possible with you all, so here is a brief write-up of some of the highlights. Feedback was compiled from several different sources, which is why you may see redundancy and formatting differences.

Thanks for posting this write-up!

You're welcome

Joy_Division · September 2019

@Glory

I know how these meetings go and you're only going to get to a fraction of what you have listed here. If there are three "pain points" that worry me most about this patch that should be brought up in the meeting, for me they would be:

My understanding of class identity is very different from what the devs gave us in this patch (Stonefist!) and what they have in the dev developer article. Giving us situational (and meh) abilities that follow the same standardized damage/resource formulas does not constitute class identity in my opinion. I don;t care how they word the "power fantasy" angle, what matters to me is gameplay and spamming something 5 times for a generic stun is ZZZZZZZ boring.
The devs need to stop giving us radical updates every single patch. This is NOT a new occurrence with the new combat team, this is a regular feature of how ZOS drops these bombshells that completely change the game. This is a long established pattern that the devs need to be aware that they have done this repeatedly. Redoing healing, redoing shields, standardizing every skill in the game, massive DoT decrease/increase, redoing tanking to make it "fun", massive Morrowind sustain nerfs, etc., etc. these wilds swings have been a consistent part of the ESO experience.. Can they actually build upon the parts of the game that we like and not make it so my character is completely different (and nerfed) every six months?
Thank them for finally making some interesting gear choices that I have to think about as opposed to plugging into a damage formula.

The one other thing I would say is the devs are way too fascinated with the Off Balance condition. That condition is much more important in CP gameplay as I could have a chance to increase my damage by 10%, which is a huge amount. The problem is much of this game's PvP is non-CP, so there is a lot of wasted opportunities we can even take advantage of. Also it is much harder for a magicka player to take successfully execute a heavy attack (slow, projectile, etc.) vs competitive PvP opponents.

Nordic__Knights · September 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.

The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.

None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol

You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.

But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.

PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!

In the beginning I never used roll Dodge to evade someone I used it as a damage negate to get inside and kill them but never to run away

universal_wrath · September 2019

Are devs going to rewerk/adjust/bakance class passive or not. I setting here since forever waiting to use the rest 6 passives of my stamsorc class. I didn't bother spending points on them, but I still have reserve of 12 skill points just in case the zos changed something. I'm still not using the pet related passives though even with clannfear changes. Very sad that I have all my armor, weapons, guilds passives that I use fully utilized but not my class passives.

armchair · September 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Glory

I know how these meetings go and you're only going to get to a fraction of what you have listed here. If there are three "pain points" that worry me most about this patch that should be brought up in the meeting, for me they would be:
My understanding of class identity is very different from what the devs gave us in this patch (Stonefist!) and what they have in the dev developer article. Giving us situational (and meh) abilities that follow the same standardized damage/resource formulas does not constitute class identity in my opinion. I don;t care how they word the "power fantasy" angle, what matters to me is gameplay and spamming something 5 times for a generic stun is ZZZZZZZ boring.

The devs need to stop giving us radical updates every single patch. This is NOT a new occurrence with the new combat team, this is a regular feature of how ZOS drops these bombshells that completely change the game. This is a long established pattern that the devs need to be aware that they have done this repeatedly. Redoing healing, redoing shields, standardizing every skill in the game, massive DoT decrease/increase, redoing tanking to make it "fun", massive Morrowind sustain nerfs, etc., etc. these wilds swings have been a consistent part of the ESO experience.. Can they actually build upon the parts of the game that we like and not make it so my character is completely different (and nerfed) every six months?

Thank them for finally making some interesting gear choices that I have to think about as opposed to plugging into a damage formula.

The one other thing I would say is the devs are way too fascinated with the Off Balance condition. That condition is much more important in CP gameplay as I could have a chance to increase my damage by 10%, which is a huge amount. The problem is much of this game's PvP is non-CP, so there is a lot of wasted opportunities we can even take advantage of. Also it is much harder for a magicka player to take successfully execute a heavy attack (slow, projectile, etc.) vs competitive PvP opponents.

It's very easy to stun off balance players from ranged with lightning or resto stave. You don't have to finish a fully charged heavy attack to get the stun any medium attack counts. Aim resto staff left click for 2 tenths of a second bam they are stunned. I agree why are they focusing so heavily on something that doesn't apply to half the pvp in the game and favors stamina builds in a huge way. They are adding so many source's of off balance that essentially in cp pvp all stamina builds will be doing 10% increased damage 70% of the time.

sindalstar · September 2019

I wonder how the meeting went...

Nordic__Knights · September 2019

sindalstar wrote: »

I wonder how the meeting went...

@CAB_Life.
Can you give any information?

CAB_Life · September 2019

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

I wonder how the meeting went...

@CAB_Life.
Can you give any information?

I should have another meeting recap video up this week once it’s cleared for NDA.

Davadin · September 2019

Glory wrote: »

Hello all,

[*] Stonefist does not feel viable in PvP, and doesn't feel good to use.

Honestly, truthfully, it simply feels like ***, functions like ***, worth a ***, looks like ***, in fact, I think if someone can slow down the animation, we are actually indeed throwing a piece of ***, not rocks.

Ozby · September 2019

I do not think it is a matter of the Dev's not Listening, I'm sure they hear us. I think maybe what we want is not always in line with what they envision for the game.

Xvorg · September 2019

armchair wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Glory

I know how these meetings go and you're only going to get to a fraction of what you have listed here. If there are three "pain points" that worry me most about this patch that should be brought up in the meeting, for me they would be:
My understanding of class identity is very different from what the devs gave us in this patch (Stonefist!) and what they have in the dev developer article. Giving us situational (and meh) abilities that follow the same standardized damage/resource formulas does not constitute class identity in my opinion. I don;t care how they word the "power fantasy" angle, what matters to me is gameplay and spamming something 5 times for a generic stun is ZZZZZZZ boring.

The devs need to stop giving us radical updates every single patch. This is NOT a new occurrence with the new combat team, this is a regular feature of how ZOS drops these bombshells that completely change the game. This is a long established pattern that the devs need to be aware that they have done this repeatedly. Redoing healing, redoing shields, standardizing every skill in the game, massive DoT decrease/increase, redoing tanking to make it "fun", massive Morrowind sustain nerfs, etc., etc. these wilds swings have been a consistent part of the ESO experience.. Can they actually build upon the parts of the game that we like and not make it so my character is completely different (and nerfed) every six months?

Thank them for finally making some interesting gear choices that I have to think about as opposed to plugging into a damage formula.

The one other thing I would say is the devs are way too fascinated with the Off Balance condition. That condition is much more important in CP gameplay as I could have a chance to increase my damage by 10%, which is a huge amount. The problem is much of this game's PvP is non-CP, so there is a lot of wasted opportunities we can even take advantage of. Also it is much harder for a magicka player to take successfully execute a heavy attack (slow, projectile, etc.) vs competitive PvP opponents.

It's very easy to stun off balance players from ranged with lightning or resto stave. You don't have to finish a fully charged heavy attack to get the stun any medium attack counts. Aim resto staff left click for 2 tenths of a second bam they are stunned. I agree why are they focusing so heavily on something that doesn't apply to half the pvp in the game and favors stamina builds in a huge way. They are adding so many source's of off balance that essentially in cp pvp all stamina builds will be doing 10% increased damage 70% of the time.

Seriously are you trying to teach a former class representative about stuns and off balance?

Nordic__Knights · September 2019

CAB_Life wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

I wonder how the meeting went...

@CAB_Life.
Can you give any information?

I should have another meeting recap video up this week once it’s cleared for NDA.

Ty

Jodynn · September 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

If DoTs could stack do you understand just the ridiculous amount of damage you could cause my spamming ONE dot ability?

Also it's not simple comparison one to one, 10x spam doesn't necessarily mean that 9x spam and 1x dot will be more you can't say
10 x 1DD = 10
9 x 1DD + 1.25DoT = 10.25
This is very, very invalid.

It doesn't work like that, even with PERFECT uptimes.

I do understand that DoTs with 25% higher damage CANNOT stack. I said as much in point 2.

In the end it all boils down how you use your global cooldowns. In PvE that is pretty straight forward as you spend almost all your GCDs dealing damage and the DoTs run until they expire (at least in the relevant fights). And in such a scenario, and ability that deals 25% more damage than its alternative is always the better choice.

Also your comparison should look more like:
9 x spam + 1 x burst = 9 x spam + 1.3 x spam = 10.3
9 x spam + 1.25 x burst = 9 x spam + 1.65 x spam 10.65

That's 65% more damage on that GCD than a spammable and 25% more damage than an equivalent burst. Which is not really that far off from what you were asking for.

As I said, I given how DoTs (rightfully) don't stack, their damage should be based on a benchmark of burst damage abilities. Something that you don't spam but still deals direct damage.

In PvP, however, that is a completely different story and DoTs would require adjustment via Battle Spirit. The reason this is that far fewer spammables are used in PvP b/c you also have to keep yourself alive and CC the enemy. So the DoTs are not 1 in 10 damage abilities but 1/3 or 1/2. At that rate you the difference between builds using DoTs and builds not using DoTs is significant. And shields and burst heals are not calibrated to deal with that increased damage.

Of course there is also Purging and DoT suppression in PvP, but these are very class specific and exclusive. Sure everybody can slot the Alliance War Purge, but given limited bar space and it's extreme cost that is not really viable. Especially, when other classes get the Purge (or DoT suppression) basically for free in their most viable builds anyway.

Go actually do the parsing and see why this isn't correct for PvE.

PvP you use both spams and DoTs...

Regardless of your point you don't seem to understand underlying mechanics and you preach things like they are in absolution, which if you are going to do you need proof of your statements, and I know that 1.25 dots are trash

. I've tested it, I've mathed it, I've theorycrafted it.

Just read @WrathOfInnos , it's good enough explanation

Joy_Division · September 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

armchair wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Glory

I know how these meetings go and you're only going to get to a fraction of what you have listed here. If there are three "pain points" that worry me most about this patch that should be brought up in the meeting, for me they would be:
My understanding of class identity is very different from what the devs gave us in this patch (Stonefist!) and what they have in the dev developer article. Giving us situational (and meh) abilities that follow the same standardized damage/resource formulas does not constitute class identity in my opinion. I don;t care how they word the "power fantasy" angle, what matters to me is gameplay and spamming something 5 times for a generic stun is ZZZZZZZ boring.

The devs need to stop giving us radical updates every single patch. This is NOT a new occurrence with the new combat team, this is a regular feature of how ZOS drops these bombshells that completely change the game. This is a long established pattern that the devs need to be aware that they have done this repeatedly. Redoing healing, redoing shields, standardizing every skill in the game, massive DoT decrease/increase, redoing tanking to make it "fun", massive Morrowind sustain nerfs, etc., etc. these wilds swings have been a consistent part of the ESO experience.. Can they actually build upon the parts of the game that we like and not make it so my character is completely different (and nerfed) every six months?

Thank them for finally making some interesting gear choices that I have to think about as opposed to plugging into a damage formula.

The one other thing I would say is the devs are way too fascinated with the Off Balance condition. That condition is much more important in CP gameplay as I could have a chance to increase my damage by 10%, which is a huge amount. The problem is much of this game's PvP is non-CP, so there is a lot of wasted opportunities we can even take advantage of. Also it is much harder for a magicka player to take successfully execute a heavy attack (slow, projectile, etc.) vs competitive PvP opponents.

It's very easy to stun off balance players from ranged with lightning or resto stave. You don't have to finish a fully charged heavy attack to get the stun any medium attack counts. Aim resto staff left click for 2 tenths of a second bam they are stunned. I agree why are they focusing so heavily on something that doesn't apply to half the pvp in the game and favors stamina builds in a huge way. They are adding so many source's of off balance that essentially in cp pvp all stamina builds will be doing 10% increased damage 70% of the time.

Seriously are you trying to teach a former class representative about stuns and off balance?

Well, the poster isn't wrong. It just seems like a waste to write, "in this specific scenario that's not the case but yeah off balance favors these players."

giantpixie · September 2019

Empowered ward is one skill I would like to be shown some love. The shields fine I happy with that it’s the minor intellect I feel needs to be changed my reason being as far as I’ve seen only sorc healers run this skill to buff our group but do you know who else can give this buff? Wardens and they can do it so much better making the sorcs application kinda redundant so I would like instead of granting minor intellect for it to grant another buff maybe minor heroism as no class can currently provide this buff to a group? If not that just something unique to give sorcs healers a little bit more love

SipofMaim · September 2019

giantpixie wrote: »

Empowered ward is one skill I would like to be shown some love. The shields fine I happy with that it’s the minor intellect I feel needs to be changed my reason being as far as I’ve seen only sorc healers run this skill to buff our group but do you know who else can give this buff? Wardens and they can do it so much better making the sorcs application kinda redundant so I would like instead of granting minor intellect for it to grant another buff maybe minor heroism as no class can currently provide this buff to a group? If not that just something unique to give sorcs healers a little bit more love

Can we not strip everything from magicka DDs to give healers yet "more love" please.

DoonerSeraph · October 2019

It seems like the nots about sustain were summarily ignored, can you please keep pushing this point? Personally I don'tlike running out of juice after 3 rotations, thanks.

Jodynn · October 2019

New notes look decent... But 6k ability costs is still... Painful.